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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:38:00 - [1]
 

Hi everyone.

I just wanted to went a bit after being away for quite a while.

I am a bit amazed that considering EVE now running on 7 years, closer to 8 counting the old beta days, we still have some of the old issues hanging..

Facility pricing.

Why on earth, or in New Eden, is this still so weirdly static in nature? This thing was and surely still is a rather annoying issue? If the issue is still balancing towards new players why not just make facility renting a tax system adding percentage to incomes?

Pricerange manipulation.

Seing those lame priced spikes in the graphs still makes the graphs resolution screwy..
There must be some way to get the graphing to disregard bad data. Something like basing the filter on diverging from avg and basevalues..

Microbidding.

The 0.1 isk price bidding is a long standing talk. I still think its one of the things that would be considered a type of griefing to traders. Our inhouse economist should be able to comment why this would never be relevant in serious market biddings. If nothing else make some sort of automation possible on price setting, but that would eat server CPU I would presume?

Stocks on the SCC

I know that some would like to keep IPO and stocks in the metagame, but seriously? Why on earth havent we gotten a real stock exchange yet? Naturally this would need a nice little feature I used to beg for corp assets extraction tool. I still believe its highly overdue to have a way of extracting lists of personal and corp assets as xls or comma seperated files..

This way we might actually get some real stock and dividends activity.

Just thought I would mention some of these old minor flaws with huge potential impact.

On a small note cant we have channel AFK feature in all other channels then local. Would be nice to estimate if your being ignored or if your talking to air..

On the plus side omg how much things have changed. This game just keeps growing, must admit its this that keep bringing me back. No game has the novelty or courage of EVE. KUDOS. (but please lets get some of these old things out of the way this year, so its not hanging when ambulation pulls tripple or more players into our little universe!)

Kindest Regards

Caleb.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2009.01.17 03:52:00 - [2]
 

In regards to stock exchange, I think I read somewhere that CCP felt that this was a feature that they believe that players can create out of game. There are 2 known stock exchange and ebank is working on one as well. With adequate number of stock exchange run by players, it's kind of low priority for CCP.

If CCP makes price automation possible, yes it will eat up server cpu time. Plus, it'll give traders more time, so we don't want to give those trolls some free time do we? They must continue to manipulate the market!

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2009.01.17 05:38:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
I just wanted to went a bit after being away for quite a while.
Egads, he's back. Women, children, and inbred trolls will once again know pain! (Welcome back mate.)
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Facility pricing.

Truly a mystery. Don't care about the "new player angle". "New Player" worries is a boogeyman that gets dragged out, in effigy, and paraded around far more than even the ever growing anecdotal evidence would support. Is it possible that "new players" is simply the bull**** reasoning people use to support unfounded "opinions"? That is instead of admitting the truth, "Oh I'm just pulling this answer out of my ass simply because I think/like/want this is a better way."
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Price range manipulation.
The graphs themselves is not so much the problem in my mind. Not being able to d/l the underlying data so that we could model it ourselves, now that's a crime. (Really is since we do actually d/l it, it is just against the EULA to decode it and use it.)
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Microbidding.
Here to stay unfortunately. Fun to ***** about apparently but annoying to endure. Still, like I said, here to stay.
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Stocks on the SCC
I think I might quit if this happens. I don't know if I can endure watching the overwhelming wave of idiocy that will splash through Eve if this becomes a reality.

I agree that there should be better ways to handle financial agreements in Eve. ("Financial Agreements" = all shares/bonds/vari documents) However some sort of automated enforcement simply does not, and can not, work. And all theoretical bs aside, Eve (and the real world) has all the factual & practical history/evidence substantiating my point re: automation.
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
On a small note cant we have channel AFK feature in all other channels then local.
That would be nice however I don't think that will happen either. To hard to determine if someone is just lurking (and not typing) or actually AFK. Still I would like to see something like MOTD in corp chat. You'd think that would've made it in by now.


Hope that gets this party started & welcome back old friend. (Okay, old is correct. Friend, who knows anymore. And for some balance, back is obvious and welcome is undetermined. Still, you know how it is.)

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2009.01.17 08:26:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Microbidding.

The 0.1 isk price bidding is a long standing talk. I still think its one of the things that would be considered a type of griefing to traders. Our inhouse economist should be able to comment why this would never be relevant in serious market biddings.

I agree that 0.01 ISK bidding can be irritating (even though I do it myself at times), but it seems that we're stuck with it.

Indeed, if you look into it, you'll find that in most real world markets, shares and commodities are traded this way as well, with traders just barely undercutting or overbidding the previous orders. (Recall that pretty much all goods in EVE are commodities, not differentiated retail products.)

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 09:45:00 - [5]
 


People seriously? An overall that is how things are accept that..

Maybe its me then getting extremely ****ed there is still so many small issues hangin around here..

The player created stocks still have none of the transperencey ingame market would have.. Tons of reasons why you need this type of trade ingame.. For one the mere rate of trade and daytrading is sort of needed for it to be a gamefeature. Outgame in the hands of players its really not even close to actual stocks. I think its a bit pathetic that something this feature rich has not been made.

When I see the work they must have put in such a small thing as the strategic table game in the ambulation demo, it just nags that these old issues arent Fing fixed or at least seriously put in the to do list..

My point is why use so much work and energy on bigger things, when these are small simple and rather fast to get on top of..

Still ever hopefull

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2009.01.17 10:49:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
When I see the work they must have put in such a small thing as the strategic table game in the ambulation demo, it just nags that these old issues arent Fing fixed or at least seriously put in the to do list..

My point is why use so much work and energy on bigger things, when these are small simple and rather fast to get on top of..
I see this as reversed. The strategic table is simply an eye-catching wowsers extension of existing game mechanics. Much much simpler than some form of functional in game stock market. Now that is hard. And it is not so much the coding as to defining what should be coded. Therein lies the problem in a nutshell.

Also, as I see it, a functioning stock market does not have the same "woohoo" effect that ambulation, and frivolities, will have. I'm not going to say CCP panders to the baser tastes and desires of the user base and/or their current target marketing demographic. I'm not going to say that, outright, but there is a certain level of give them what they want (or tell them what they want to hear) in the decision making process.

After all, it is the masses that they want. And, presumptuously, we are too intelligent (here) to be consider the masses. We are, also, already hooked. What the game lacks for in intellectual challenge(s) we seem to provide to each other (as targets) so that CCP does not have to cater to our smaller segment.

You'll remember that I applied a similar theory for the role play community here at Eve years ago when you worked at Eve Guardian. RP'ers whined and whined about how underserved they were being and how much less and less they were getting. If one remembers the value of one's demographic, these things become very very clear.

For instance: Faction Warfare was a sop towards RP groups but mostly targeted for the instant gratification market. Other than that, RP'ers have received **** all in the way of coding or development. Written fiction, I think, is more an outlet for the writers at CCP. Not for the RP'ers. And the market advertising, while continuing some storyline joy, was not geared to the underserved (and imho undeserving) RP community.

IMHO MD minded people, if they make themselves a nuisance about such issues, may find themselves sucking dry tit like the RP community. If they are not careful, imho. (As more mindless paying drones, er, customers join Eve, the less value we the long term players have to CCP.)

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 11:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
When I see the work they must have put in such a small thing as the strategic table game in the ambulation demo, it just nags that these old issues arent Fing fixed or at least seriously put in the to do list..

My point is why use so much work and energy on bigger things, when these are small simple and rather fast to get on top of..
I see this as reversed. The strategic table is simply an eye-catching wowsers extension of existing game mechanics. Much much simpler than some form of functional in game stock market. Now that is hard. And it is not so much the coding as to defining what should be coded. Therein lies the problem in a nutshell.

Also, as I see it, a functioning stock market does not have the same "woohoo" effect that ambulation, and frivolities, will have. I'm not going to say CCP panders to the baser tastes and desires of the user base and/or their current target marketing demographic. I'm not going to say that, outright, but there is a certain level of give them what they want (or tell them what they want to hear) in the decision making process.

After all, it is the masses that they want. And, presumptuously, we are too intelligent (here) to be consider the masses. We are, also, already hooked. What the game lacks for in intellectual challenge(s) we seem to provide to each other (as targets) so that CCP does not have to cater to our smaller segment.

You'll remember that I applied a similar theory for the role play community here at Eve years ago when you worked at Eve Guardian. RP'ers whined and whined about how underserved they were being and how much less and less they were getting. If one remembers the value of one's demographic, these things become very very clear.

For instance: Faction Warfare was a sop towards RP groups but mostly targeted for the instant gratification market. Other than that, RP'ers have received **** all in the way of coding or development. Written fiction, I think, is more an outlet for the writers at CCP. Not for the RP'ers. And the market advertising, while continuing some storyline joy, was not geared to the underserved (and imho undeserving) RP community.

IMHO MD minded people, if they make themselves a nuisance about such issues, may find themselves sucking dry tit like the RP community. If they are not careful, imho. (As more mindless paying drones, er, customers join Eve, the less value we the long term players have to CCP.)



Always the cynic my Dear Shar. I must admit your POV is more realistic than my own, I will forever wish and dream of these things.

You must admit that leaving the metagame and the RP alone from ccps side is a rather big mistake. Considering they want to get to work on WoD that is even more so..

TBH if they dont look into these fringe areas that ppl like you and I keep talkin, wishing and trolling about, they cant steal all that sweet experience.

I dont claim to know it all, or hold all the greatest solutions, but I do know a thing or two about markets ingame and RL, and I have played RP especially WoD for more years than EVE have been around, so I am not just a troll ***** here its actually something I have a deep and long passion about.

Also on topic of the market stuff. A real stockmarket would create so much metagame and content, that ccp could really lean back and just watch us **** things in seriously novel ways.

Actually I think time has already proven that balancing the games financial power is not such a bad thing, so many metagame aspects have made things so much more entertaining in our little New Eden.

Oh and on an end note. I seriously fail to see why we havent gotten any new trading skills added lately. I miss my 2500+ active orders I am feeling restrained wearing this strayjacket they call skills. Evil or Very Mad


Mike'P
Posted - 2009.01.17 12:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania


Microbidding.

The 0.1 isk price bidding is a long standing talk.



I wonder out of curiosity whether disabling the 'mouse scroll wheel moves price by 0.1 ISK' feature would have any impact on this ? I certainly know that if I'm feeling particularly lazy, sitting chin-in-left-hand and scrolling up or down by 0.1 ISK with the mouse is the easy thing to do.

And we all know how people will take the easy option un-prompted...

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 13:34:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mike'P
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania


Microbidding.

The 0.1 isk price bidding is a long standing talk.



I wonder out of curiosity whether disabling the 'mouse scroll wheel moves price by 0.1 ISK' feature would have any impact on this ? I certainly know that if I'm feeling particularly lazy, sitting chin-in-left-hand and scrolling up or down by 0.1 ISK with the mouse is the easy thing to do.

And we all know how people will take the easy option un-prompted...



I like the direction of thought.. I really believe it might do a little, but honestly it would not remove the griefers, and it is a rather nice feature for the rest of us traders..


Heikki
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.01.17 15:34:00 - [10]
 

Some of the things you listed are not 'old broken issues needing to be fixed', but rather things you would prefer to be done differently, while some others will love the current way.
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
0.1 isk price bidding .. it would not remove the griefers
I got kind of habit trying to remind the mechanism is friendly market sharing method; nothing to be associated with griefing.

"Friendly" = only those who like it will participate; rest will modify sell/buy orders with huge steps
"market sharing" = participants don't compete with price; they just share turns on lead, i.e. who gets the sale. If one participant doesn't like the timeshares he gets, he can always resort to price competition.

-Lasse
who does both depending on transaction type / available time

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2009.01.17 15:39:00 - [11]
 

I had no idea you could change the price with the mousewheel, thanks for the tip, will make my 0.01 under/over - cutting much easier :)))

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.01.17 15:39:00 - [12]
 

I'd prefer to see server-side auto-bidding scripts, working with market orders in much the same way as proxy bidding on ebay. It needs more CPU time, I expect, but people wouldn't fell compelled to hammer the server with hundreds of separate updates per day.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 15:51:00 - [13]
 

Also a client side solution would be to have entire orderbooks that you could upload to servers. This way you could have player created tools handling monitoring of price changes, and this might ease the load on the servers.

In other words buy and sell orderbook could be edited and added and subtracted to offline and updated with server on demand.

A simple notification option on changes could alleviate the problem to a large extend.

I think there are many possible solutions. I am not against bidding wars, but bidding in such low fractions of a price is not a BID.. If ppl cant see that they really are defined as griefers and not serious traders. Ask any auctioneer or RL investor.. Its just plain wrong..

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2009.01.17 19:42:00 - [14]
 

Micro bidding can be solved with a single idea I had a long time ago.

Queuing...

I find it fascinating that 300 people in Jita can be updating their market orders every 5 minutes and the change is instant! Just how many brokers do stations have anyway :)

Best solution is to limit the number of updates per minute to say 100. And queue everyones requests. Limit people to making 6 update per minute regardless of how many orders they have (That's an update every 10 seconds, good luck with actually achieving this :))

The math is not that bad behind it either. Lets assume there are 1000 people in Jita all with 6 orders updated in a single minute. You're talking a Maximum update time of 60 minutes. That's assume EVERYONE in Jita updates 6 orders a minute. Lets also assume they all have the maximum of 305 orders at Jita.

For a start it would you 50 minutes to update all 305 orders. Assuming all 100 people did that, for everyone to update all the orders at Jita, all 305,000 of them is 8 hours and 30 minutes.

The above is worse case and is highly unlikely. Keep in mind the individual orders are still limited to an update every 5 minutes, but you're limit is 6 updates per minute. It sounds horrible 8.5 hours to update an order.. Keep in mind that's 1000 people all in Jita all updating every possible order they have on the market which would have taken them 50 minutes to do.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.01.17 19:51:00 - [15]
 

I don't think any solution based on restricting the existing functionality of the market can be described as the best possible; this is the very heart of EVE.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.17 19:51:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: SencneS
Micro bidding can be solved with a single idea I had a long time ago.

Queuing...

I find it fascinating that 300 people in Jita can be updating their market orders every 5 minutes and the change is instant! Just how many brokers do stations have anyway :)

Best solution is to limit the number of updates per minute to say 100. And queue everyones requests. Limit people to making 6 update per minute regardless of how many orders they have (That's an update every 10 seconds, good luck with actually achieving this :))

The math is not that bad behind it either. Lets assume there are 1000 people in Jita all with 6 orders updated in a single minute. You're talking a Maximum update time of 60 minutes. That's assume EVERYONE in Jita updates 6 orders a minute. Lets also assume they all have the maximum of 305 orders at Jita.

For a start it would you 50 minutes to update all 305 orders. Assuming all 100 people did that, for everyone to update all the orders at Jita, all 305,000 of them is 8 hours and 30 minutes.

The above is worse case and is highly unlikely. Keep in mind the individual orders are still limited to an update every 5 minutes, but you're limit is 6 updates per minute. It sounds horrible 8.5 hours to update an order.. Keep in mind that's 1000 people all in Jita all updating every possible order they have on the market which would have taken them 50 minutes to do.


This idea sounds rather interesting.. This could work, or at least a system close to it..

The queing and maybe some sort of stacking might be interesting. Where the broker stacked the orders and took payment and distributed it on the buyers and sellers orders.. This could make the system very different, but really a lot better.

Systems could have different broker ammounts to reflect speed of updates..

I like the way this could go, it would also look more like real life trading of sorts..

Kudos..

Shadow''Broker
Posted - 2009.01.17 22:58:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Shadow''''Broker on 17/01/2009 22:59:11
I don't see why people have such a problem with micro-bidders. I think the real griefers are the ones who undercut or outbid by 10, 100, 1000, etc.

I understand that they either think they are super clever by changing it by that much on a multimillion isk order, hoping that the next person to check their order will not notice, but:
a) It doesn't work.
b) It still doesn't work.
The other reason people might do this is to annoy others.

The other person I don't understand is the one who outbids/undercuts for more significant amounts. Why do they choose to kill their profit when they know they will be undercut/outbid as quickly as before. It's like seeing your enemy charge at you with a knife, and you throw a hand grenade at your feet. The one exception to this that I understand is people who want to quickly sell a small number of items.

I'm always pleased to see that I've only been outbid/undercut by only 0.01 isk. It makes updating orders a little less painful. Therefore, I tip my hat to the micro-bidders.


Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.01.18 00:34:00 - [18]
 

Quote:

Facility pricing.


This is something I considered quite a lot yesterday actually.

It dawned on me that the success I had with Dusk Blade didn't require any real infrastructure. Once I had some researched BPOs I just threw them into the nearest NPC station. Done. Sell. Profit. Bake. Done. Sell. Profit.

I find it pretty ridiculous that NPC stations are *possibly* the best place to do industry of any form and yet are also the *cheapest*.

Pro's of NPC stations:

- 100% risk free (no way to destroy the jobs).
- Uniform Efficiency (1.0 multiplier on all jobs stats)
- Cheapest per-hour rates.

Cons:
- Uniform efficiency (no way to make more efficient jobs)
- Public slots usually highly competitive (not the case for Manufacturing slots though)

Pro's of POS:
- Increased efficiency with some equipment
- Private slots

Cons:
- Cost more
- Inefficiency in a lot of cases with equipment.

Obviously the public vs private is a big swinger here, but the efficiency, cost and safety of using an NPC slot doesn't motivate people to run out and setup POS for this purpose, rather just camp the slot the few hours before it becomes available than put in all that effort.

Justifiably too these slots in nullsec (and arguably low sec) are resources to be fought over, but in high sec, there's nothing to it.

Really, high sec NPC slot usage should cost more than a "guesstimate" for running the same piece of kit on a large POS to leave the high sec slots available with the money where profit is no object or newbieness to want to use them because nothing better is available, and encourage use of player run resources. But anyways...... that's my brain fart.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.01.18 00:39:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
I don't see why people have such a problem with micro-bidders. I think the real griefers are the ones who undercut or outbid by 10, 100, 1000, etc.

I understand that they either think they are super clever by changing it by that much on a multimillion isk order, hoping that the next person to check their order will not notice, but:
a) It doesn't work.
b) It still doesn't work.
The other reason people might do this is to annoy others.

The other person I don't understand is the one who outbids/undercuts for more significant amounts. Why do they choose to kill their profit when they know they will be undercut/outbid as quickly as before. It's like seeing your enemy charge at you with a knife, and you throw a hand grenade at your feet. The one exception to this that I understand is people who want to quickly sell a small number of items.

I'm always pleased to see that I've only been outbid/undercut by only 0.01 isk. It makes updating orders a little less painful. Therefore, I tip my hat to the micro-bidders.


Bolded your problem. You plain don't understand, and think there's only one way to play the game. You don't *have* to undercut these people and kill your own profit margin, but you do anyway, and think it's griefing. Right.

But anyway, I think it's far too easy to undercut by 0.01 ISK. It's got a place in the game, but so does outbidding in much higher magnitude, and (as the old locked topic in my sig shows) market taxes need to be reevaluated to allow for more careful and thought-out market strategies, and new ways to engage the market without destroying existing market strategies, except the ones that boil down to "I've got far more RL time to spend in front of my computer than you".

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2009.01.18 15:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
except the ones that boil down to "I've got far more RL time to spend in front of my computer than you".
Very well thought out posts, as usual, however I thought that I would point out something: There is no system that can be designed that does not reward those who put more time(=effort) into it. That's the nature of investing more time into "x" activity after all. IMHO all this talking about "curing" microbidding just sounds like "Let's punish those who do put more time into the game than I do."

I don't give a rat's ass about your life. I don't care that you have to work "x" number of hours more than someone else. I don't care that you have family, love, outside interests, life, etc., etc..

To those who has made Eve their life, all of those are just plain excuses. Why should they be punished simply because you allow other things to distract yourself from what is important (Eve).

Now I do have life, love, family, work, etc., etc.. That being said, I do not engage in microbidding since I do not have the time to invest in such strategies. I find my eve life to be very stress free as well since I don't engage in it. Of course, I also work my strategies so that I'm not critically dependent on successful sales either.

So again I say, microbidding is here to stay because the only reason against it, that I'm hearing, is "whine, whine, whine."

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.18 20:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:

Facility pricing.


This is something I considered quite a lot yesterday actually.

It dawned on me that the success I had with Dusk Blade didn't require any real infrastructure. Once I had some researched BPOs I just threw them into the nearest NPC station. Done. Sell. Profit. Bake. Done. Sell. Profit.

I find it pretty ridiculous that NPC stations are *possibly* the best place to do industry of any form and yet are also the *cheapest*.

Pro's of NPC stations:

- 100% risk free (no way to destroy the jobs).
- Uniform Efficiency (1.0 multiplier on all jobs stats)
- Cheapest per-hour rates.

Cons:
- Uniform efficiency (no way to make more efficient jobs)
- Public slots usually highly competitive (not the case for Manufacturing slots though)

Pro's of POS:
- Increased efficiency with some equipment
- Private slots

Cons:
- Cost more
- Inefficiency in a lot of cases with equipment.

Obviously the public vs private is a big swinger here, but the efficiency, cost and safety of using an NPC slot doesn't motivate people to run out and setup POS for this purpose, rather just camp the slot the few hours before it becomes available than put in all that effort.

Justifiably too these slots in nullsec (and arguably low sec) are resources to be fought over, but in high sec, there's nothing to it.

Really, high sec NPC slot usage should cost more than a "guesstimate" for running the same piece of kit on a large POS to leave the high sec slots available with the money where profit is no object or newbieness to want to use them because nothing better is available, and encourage use of player run resources. But anyways...... that's my brain fart.


The seriously annoying part is that there is supposedly a pricing system active, but ccp wont set it to a volatile and highimpacting system. Even though this would seriously increase gameplay.

The serious increase in pricing would move the users to POS run Labs and thus create some nice metagame and more incentive of play.

I was so hoping these things would be ammong the things our little inhouse economist in EVE would be looking at and blogging on, and eventually make sure got changed..

Honestly if these things arent his area why hire him? I get the feeling its more to shut up people and comfort the populace, but then I risk starting to sound a bit like Shar. Wink (forgive me the ref)

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.01.18 23:29:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 19/01/2009 00:59:56
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Stuff


I wholeheartedly agree with you, the first person to make a game that remains fun to play yet is equally fair to people with 1 hour to spare a day versus 20 will also be inline for a Nobel Peace Prize.

That said, the 20-40 something crowd with 2.5 kids and a full time job is a significant portion of the gaming community. If you just leave a game as "If you've got more time on your hands, you'll win", and favor that side more and more (Of which I've been on the winning side of that equation a few times in the past) you eventually alienate those who just don't have the time (done that to people), and those who do win go powertripping because they think it's some Über skills they have, rather than the fact the game simply favors those with more time to spare (been one of those people, and ****ed off friends for it). Because lets face it, whether you have 1 hour or 20 hours, we both still pay $20 (or whatever) a month, so a game should cater to that diversity need, and it can do it in a way that doesn't strip away the fun of players who can spare the time for long sessions.

I've learnt a lot of market tactics hanging around here, and think it's quite an involved part of EVE, but for a manufacturer it's still "hit bricks with bricks" in so far as making the product and being the best sell order, and there'd be a lot more diversity if there were advantages to, in search of better words, macro-bidding, as well as disadvantages, provided microbidding has it's own advantages and disavantages.

As it stands, the only disadvantage to microbidding is less RL time, and if all you're doing is engaging a competitive market, then nothing else really makes much sense.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2009.01.19 03:19:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Honestly if these things arent his area why hire him? I get the feeling its more to shut up people and comfort the populace, but then I risk starting to sound a bit like Shar. Wink (forgive me the ref)
Speculative Reasons why an economist was hired. (Not in order of importance or validity)

  1. Marketing Stunt

    With other games, like Second Life, getting a fair bit of publicity, due to their real life cash/economic system, Eve needed something to go touting about itself. "See, the game is so deep a credited economics professor had to be put on staff!" - CCP Marketing Campaign at each and every game convention, meet, or back alley they sent this economist to since they've hired him.

  2. Necessary Evil


  3. Eve had, and has, grown so complex that the Developers could no longer simply envision, mentally, what Eve had(has) grown into even though many play the game (supposedly in all its aspects). Thus an economist was really necessary.

    The often stated maxim Eve Economics != Real World Economics does not apply in this particular case. It is not the economics theories and experience outside of Eve that was important, it is the ability to take those theories and that experience and formulate economic metrics applicable to Eve.

    (Another factor is: CCP is clannish. If they can hire an Icelander for something, all others need not apply.)

  4. Customer Placebo


  5. "Yes, we are doing serious work on the higher economics of the game. See we hired an Economist!"

    I said it then, I say it now, "The economist was not hired to improve anyone's gaming experience, period." The QEN is nothing but a placebo and an under-supplied one.

    (Before anyone points this out: The removal of shuttles was an oft repeated suggestion. If the good doctor had anything to do with the decision it was more, "Hmmmm, nice idea. Wish I had thought of it." Of course he's proven his academia background by not really crediting the Eve community with the idea.)

  6. Something To Do Between Real Jobs

    As credentialed as the good doctor is one can only wonder if his pension was somewhat lacking. The man ain't young so why was he just lying around ready and handy for the job that he has now?

    I'm not saying that the gaming business is not a serious business. I worked at EA for a while so I know it is a serious business. I just find it ... odd... that someone with the doctor's credentials and age would somehow see the light and consider this a substantive career move. Surprisingly avant-garde of him but yet he's not so edgy that he'd deign to interact with us.

    When things don't add up, something stinks.

Not that I'm hostile over the Economist (sometimes referred to as the "Good Doctor"). I'm just hostile at having smoke blown up my ass and being told it is a: not smoke, b: not my ass, and c: that I should be grateful about all of the above.

Coronae Borealis
Posted - 2009.01.19 07:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Caleb Ayrania

Microbidding.

The 0.1 isk price bidding is a long standing talk. I still think its one of the things that would be considered a type of griefing to traders. Our inhouse economist should be able to comment why this would never be relevant in serious market biddings. If nothing else make some sort of automation possible on price setting, but that would eat server CPU I would presume?

What? If you don't have the time or will to keep your orders at the top, then go play single player games. What makes you think that 0.01 raise isn't serious?

That's just sad whining.

Shadow''Broker
Posted - 2009.01.19 09:21:00 - [25]
 

Just adding my 0.01 isk:

If you don't have the time to sit around all day updating orders, then don't trade in Jita.

I do just fine updating my orders only twice a day. Micro-bidding is a great convenience and time saver. I don't see why some whine about it. Maybe they should go put some buy orders up for trit at 100 isk above the going rate.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.01.19 11:36:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 19/01/2009 11:40:33
Quote:
Just adding my 0.01 isk:

If you don't have the time to sit around all day updating orders, then don't trade in Jita.

I do just fine updating my orders only twice a day. Micro-bidding is a great convenience and time saver. I don't see why some whine about it. Maybe they should go put some buy orders up for trit at 100 isk above the going rate.


I took up the manufacturing trade because I don't have time to sit in front of the computer all day long. Specifically I engaged in the T2 component market. The *only* way I could make sales usually were the few hundred sales I'd catch immediately after a modification when I had a brief moment each night. Beyond that, yeah, I actually had a bit more time up my sleeve of a weekend and I could hit up my orders about a hundred times during the day and push those sales before the weekend hit.

Don't trade in Jita? You ever tried dealing with public sales of T2 components in excess of a volume of 200k units a week anywhere else? That's a few months sales in most other regions.

So really, what're you trying to say? I'm allowed to engage an activity quite obviously pointed to those who don't have much ATK time but *sorry*, no sales for you because we'll make it very difficult for you to sell those goods because there's no effective way to for someone without much ATK to push them through the market somehow? Yeah, I'll sell to the below-cost sell orders, that'll do it!

When I cashed out of that industry to pay back my shareholders their due returns I found out how hilarious you market lemmings are. That day I crashed several T2 component markets by between 1000-2000 isk (33% in some cases!). I logged on the next day to find almost all my bids outdone, and some of them took a month to cash through. During this time there was ample amounts of "No more profit in T2 components" and "Why do people undercut by more than 0.01 ISK" tear topics. Actually, fair point. I DO find it hilarious how people like you openly criticise people like me for being someone who chooses not to undercut by 0.01 ISK, yet find it absurd I'd begin to even question the notion that there's a problem with 0.01 ISK bidding, instead choosing a "GTFOO my game" stance. Get over yourself. I'm sure once enough people get out of your game you'll get your own little single-player universe.

0.01 ISK bidding has it's place, unfortunately it's generally the only option because it carries zero disadvantages, and that makes for a pretty boring market.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.19 16:34:00 - [27]
 

I think Shars comment that there should be advantages from much ingame time is valid. I do think active marketeering should be a good biz, but that should be in a way that is more fair, and less grief based.

I dont think the microbidding is the worst flaw around. I actually think its moderately tollerable like wasps in the summer. (You still want them to just stay away)

I would much more like to focus on getting ingame pricings more dynamic or better yet into the hands of players. Facilities, and even broker fees.

If broker fees were actually supply and demand sensitive it would also remove much of the microbiddings.

In my, in this area not so humble, oppinion a HUGE range of small problems would get solved with a supply and demand sensitive and fast reacting system

It would also add some strategic elements to the game that would be awesome to just observe.

Some would say that this would balance the game to hard towards the very rich, but since this would essentially be a money sink it would not benefit them in the long run. Only issue would be possible manipulation and griefing.

Some serious cost benefit calculations would be needed when entering the grey areas of griefing/feature mechanics..

NB: @ Shar I can agree to basically all your points on the good doctor post. I just hope we are wrong.

Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
Posted - 2009.01.24 16:21:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Shadow''Broker
Just adding my 0.01 isk:

If you don't have the time to sit around all day updating orders, then don't trade in Jita.

I do just fine updating my orders only twice a day. Micro-bidding is a great convenience and time saver. I don't see why some whine about it. Maybe they should go put some buy orders up for trit at 100 isk above the going rate.


Honestly the 0.01 increment is not relevant on TRT. Its not a micro increment on items priced that low per unit..

The issue is basically a bad order and market resulution and a donchian bouncing all over the place..

I honestly think most people working trade in real life would look at our graphs and ask what the hell am i looking at?

The problem is to few orders from skills, and to few traders.. This makes manipulation to easy and makes prices shift in Jitaring/Jittering fasion..

Remake the orders system and base it on standing with station broker, and make the limit as it is now PER broker..

Then traders would have their hands full and would need to actually keep track of their activities over more locations..

Would also put a new perspective on passive assets and make stocks more interesting. Would also sort the issue of being able to insta sell your stuff at more fair prices..

Also hauling would start working better because more courrier missions would be issued by corps and traders working these large passive assets and needing them back at a more lucretive location to liquidate the passives.

Kindest regards ..
Always hopefull Caleb


 

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