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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.01.13 03:01:00 - [1]
 

I've done a search on this topic, but can't find anything relevant.

I'm a fairly new player busy doing the usual grind of missions and mining while, ever so slowly, training my skills up to a point where I can fly and fight in T2 AS, HAC, Marauder etc. Like most people the time it takes to train any skill to a high level is usually so long that I seriously consider just dropping the game altogether every once in a while. I know this isn't a serious problem for older players who have, patiently (or perhaps less patiently) trained their skills over the years, but it is a serious problem for new players, and, IMO, is the reason why the majority of new players quit after a while.

I think the consequence of this is that those core players who have persevered are very loyal to the game, and the majority of trial accounts never become subscriptions, despite CCP heavily advertising the game in all relevant channels.

It is just too frustrating.

I think that a change to the length of skill training times would be an excellent idea to all concerned (with one major caveat). If say, all levels of skills were brought down to a maximum of 3 days, there would be a major influx of new players. For older players there would not be much of a difference since they would already have their high skills and so would not lose anything (yes, I know it would probably be regarded as terribly unfair to all the people, including myself who have spent months and years training various skills, but I think it would still be worth it).

The caveat is that I think CCP mainly uses the long skill training times as an attempt to try and keep people in the game (the future rewards of long hard work, etc), except that I think it doesn't work all that well. I have a strong feeling that one of the main game elements of eve is simply the training itself. Consider what would be the case if training were shorter and more people had more of the same high skills and ships: huge blobs of evenly matched ships fighting one another with the winners mainly being the blob with the biggest number of players.

Or would it be? Isn't the real skill of eve the ability to fit ships with different characteristics so as to better fit certain situations or using tactics to win an encounter?

Why does skill training have to be so extremely long and does it really make the game better or worse?

I would love to hear some (considered) opinions on this topic.

Drakus
Minmatar
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.13 03:06:00 - [2]
 

so.. you want to make it so the guy thats played for 5 years... has the same skills as the guy thats played for... 4months?

HOW would take make people play longer?

Its like saying (and i feel very very dirty for even thinking about WOW) that a lvl 20 should be able to compete with a lvl 70 just to make it so that the lvl 20 plays longer...


Drakus
Minmatar
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.13 03:11:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
I've done a search on this topic, but can't find anything relevant.

I'm a fairly new player busy doing the usual grind of missions and mining while, ever so slowly, training my skills up to a point where I can fly and fight in T2 AS, HAC, Marauder etc. Like most people the time it takes to train any skill to a high level is usually so long that I seriously consider just dropping the game altogether every once in a while. I know this isn't a serious problem for older players who have, patiently (or perhaps less patiently) trained their skills over the years, but it is a serious problem for new players, and, IMO, is the reason why the majority of new players quit after a while.

I think the consequence of this is that those core players who have persevered are very loyal to the game, and the majority of trial accounts never become subscriptions, despite CCP heavily advertising the game in all relevant channels.

It is just too frustrating.

I think that a change to the length of skill training times would be an excellent idea to all concerned (with one major caveat). If say, all levels of skills were brought down to a maximum of 3 days, there would be a major influx of new players. For older players there would not be much of a difference since they would already have their high skills and so would not lose anything (yes, I know it would probably be regarded as terribly unfair to all the people, including myself who have spent months and years training various skills, but I think it would still be worth it).

The caveat is that I think CCP mainly uses the long skill training times as an attempt to try and keep people in the game (the future rewards of long hard work, etc), except that I think it doesn't work all that well. I have a strong feeling that one of the main game elements of eve is simply the training itself. Consider what would be the case if training were shorter and more people had more of the same high skills and ships: huge blobs of evenly matched ships fighting one another with the winners mainly being the blob with the biggest number of players.

Or would it be? Isn't the real skill of eve the ability to fit ships with different characteristics so as to better fit certain situations or using tactics to win an encounter?

Why does skill training have to be so extremely long and does it really make the game better or worse?

I would love to hear some (considered) opinions on this topic.


bolded 2 things that are COMPLETLY CONTRADICTORY.

first, CCP doesn't want to have HUGE BLOBS, no one does... Blobs=Lag=whines=quits=less ISK for CCP

second bolded part, you are semi-correct there... its about having the skills to fit for the situation... so the guy whos played longer has the advantage of having better skills.

Another thing... If people think there are too many caps in this game now... imagin if BS5 took MAX 15days (saying it was 3d per lvl which it wouldn't) then Cap ship 5 in same time... dread5 in the same... you'll see a HELL of alot more caps in game just due to the fact they are soooo easy to fly...

i think this idea ment well, but failed horribly...

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.01.13 03:12:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Drakus
so.. you want to make it so the guy thats played for 5 years... has the same skills as the guy thats played for... 4months?

HOW would take make people play longer?

Its like saying (and i feel very very dirty for even thinking about WOW) that a lvl 20 should be able to compete with a lvl 70 just to make it so that the lvl 20 plays longer...




Yes, I know, and I agree. Older players would find it incredibly unfair (and even my 6 month old character would not exactly be ecstatic about it), but I honestly wonder what the point of the long training times really is? I know it would probably be next to impossible to change given the fact that most core players feel the way you do, but I mainly just want to know: Why?

A newer player can never really catch up with an older player (In theory. In practice, with luck and high skill you possibly can on occasion). It seems as if the system is inherently biased towards older players.

That's all.

Drakus
Minmatar
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.13 03:30:00 - [5]
 

it is biased twords older players... and it should be.

There would be no reason to continue playing this game if you could max out everything in like a year.

Half the fun of eve is that you have to choose what you want to do. Are you EW? Dmg? a builder? a miner? a hauler?

CCP has the long skill times for one reason, balance. A low lvl1 skill (like a learning skill) has 250 points needed to complete. or something like that (not logged in right now). thats a rank 1 skill, easy skill everyone should have. Titan is a rank... 16 or something? why should that take the same amount of time to get to lvl1 as a learning skill? Making longer skills FORCES people to choose what they want to be.

its better then most MMO's out there if ya think about it. Your stuck as that type for the entire time you play, your a mage forever and ever.

In eve you can be a miner for a year then decide, know what? i wanna be an awsome carrier pilot and change over to that carrer path... it'll take time, BUT you can do it... so be happy that you don't have to choose your path at the start...

Another thing. Allowing people to max out quickly will mean people get bored quicker, meaning that ccp needs to add new content alot more, and more skills.

I keep using wow as examples because everyone knows that game.

Blizzard has expansions which increase the lvl cap... same idea for eve would mean with new patches you'd need new skills (our lvl-ing up)... which means ccp would have to spend more time on content, less on bugs... would prob have to have things happen more often meaning (maybe) expansions we have to pay for...

just my thoguhts...

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2009.01.13 04:08:00 - [6]
 

I think the moral of the story is... economics wins.

CCP wants players to pay to maintain several accounts over several years time.

You can't have a viable "alt" unless you have several accounts. Otherwise you can only train 1 of the 3 characters per account at a time. So if you want a combatant, a miner, and a hauler... that's 3 accounts you'll be paying for.

Then they've adjusted the system, so you can't pay for an account long enough to start one of the month+ skills training, and then come back after it should have finished. They call it an "exploit", meaning that your character is progressing... but they aren't getting a paycheck.

I agree that veterans deserve a bit of an advantage. But I also agree that new players should be able to contribute more to a group. One thing that should be removed is the Learning Skills. They merely exist to ensure that CCP wastes any free trial period on a character by having you train these "Prerequisite" skills before getting into actual gameplay. Anyone and everyone will tell you, if you don't train the Learning Skills first, then anything else you train will take ages longer. Evemon will even tell you, you should train a handful of Learning skills before attempting to train anything else you would want to do.

And I know, because it happens everytime someone suggests a similar line. Somebody is gonna post below here saying "What!? You want my 5 year old character to just LOSE the skill points I invested in those Learning Skills? I had to train them... let everyone else train them too!"

Guess what geezer... no one cares. Or rather, no one should care. Just because you did it, doesn't mean everyone else should have to as well. Doing something, only because that's the way it's always been done, is lame.

CommanderData211
Posted - 2009.01.13 05:29:00 - [7]
 

Fail on the OP. Fail on Marcus

Psiri
Posted - 2009.01.13 06:50:00 - [8]
 

Seriously though, OP has a point. It's very discouraging to find that you'll need at least 100 days worth of training before you can be viable in an AF or interceptor (and that's with a perfect training plan and +3 implants, something most new players do not have the luxury of having).

That being sad, battlecruisers can be effective with low ammounts of SP, a mere 40-50 days can be enough for a decent t1 fit.

I see no reason why new pilots should have to train up fitting skills like Engineering and Weapon Upgrades, other than to discourage new players from EVE. Sometimes I suspect that CCP doesn't want to encourage new players to stay in the game. It's also unecessarily hard to make money as a new pilot in EVE from the core content such as mining and missioning, which just further adds to the frustration that a new player might feel.

I like to see that a new pilot should be able to head out in lowsec in his first or second day with a fully fit and effective frigate (took this char over a week to do so), within a week from that point he should be comfortable in a cruiser. BC or T2 frigate piloting should be available in 30-50 days worth of further training. Older players already have a HUGE advantage, not only in terms of SP but in experience and player finances aswell.

Making it easier for new players to get into the game won't make old players quit nor will it take their edge away.

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2009.01.13 07:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Psiri
Seriously though, OP has a point. It's very discouraging to find that you'll need at least 100 days worth of training before you can be viable in an AF or interceptor (and that's with a perfect training plan and +3 implants, something most new players do not have the luxury of having).

That being sad, battlecruisers can be effective with low ammounts of SP, a mere 40-50 days can be enough for a decent t1 fit.

I see no reason why new pilots should have to train up fitting skills like Engineering and Weapon Upgrades, other than to discourage new players from EVE. Sometimes I suspect that CCP doesn't want to encourage new players to stay in the game. It's also unecessarily hard to make money as a new pilot in EVE from the core content such as mining and missioning, which just further adds to the frustration that a new player might feel.

I like to see that a new pilot should be able to head out in lowsec in his first or second day with a fully fit and effective frigate (took this char over a week to do so), within a week from that point he should be comfortable in a cruiser. BC or T2 frigate piloting should be available in 30-50 days worth of further training. Older players already have a HUGE advantage, not only in terms of SP but in experience and player finances aswell.

Making it easier for new players to get into the game won't make old players quit nor will it take their edge away.


I can't tell if you are trolling or are actually serious. T2 frigates are advanced ships that require specialization and the skill set now supports that. The reason there are such long skill training times is a money issue for CCP. It helps keep players in the game longer if they can set long term goals. Your guys' biggest failure in this thread is the realization that the average Eve pilot is around 14 months old I believe. So to say that a lot of players quit during trial isn't true. Plus it weeds out the WoW players that want instant gratification.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.01.13 07:57:00 - [10]
 

@OP LOL no.

On the idea of making newbies life easier with added skills. Sure why not? You get decent skills in one are, if you choose the correct options when creating a character. If you make "wrong" choices, you lack even the basic rank 1 skills. It also takes some time to get to know the game, so by that time you are faced with an option. Either start over and lose a decent amount of skillpoints or wait a few days, so you get the minimum skill for your new profession.

This isn't exactly a problem, but it's not really necessary either. Since you don't know what you end up doing in the game, it might be an option to increase the starter characters skillpoints by adding skills that are crosstraining friendly. Something really basic like fitting, learning and general rank 1 skills. These are skills that every main character will need and use no matter what he ends up specializing in. This would increase the options of new players, make training the more flashy/interesting things faster, ease the effects of changing training focus and make the perceived necessity of learning skills less of an time sink for skill training maximizers.

Emporors Champian
Posted - 2009.01.13 08:55:00 - [11]
 

what you do is allow a new player in his first 30 days from activation double skill train speed long as it is not a skill that cant be trained on trial account if you attempt to train one of those skills you train as normal.

idealy this will help the smart players get through learning skills faster but you have 30 dayse of double skill training on basic skills.

this is my idea to give the lil guy a bone

Grigo
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.01.13 09:06:00 - [12]
 

m8 u are thinking at this way wrong...aldow u probably meen well it cant come from chainging skills...

thing is that every ship in this game hase a "dark twin" meaning it hase a nother ship that is made for killing it...

example a 5 year old caracter in a bs whit max skills can get blown up by a 5 month vaga pilot...and examples can go on and on and on...beleave me i have yet to find a single ship that dose not have a nother ship specificly designed for killing it.

so its not a problem of flying all and having max skills...its just a problem of SPECIALISING on one area at a time...u dont need to fly all ships...if u fly just a couple and good(dosent recuiere that much training time for some ships) then u simply can not get bored...

and as sad befor ...ccp dont want blobs and needer do a large portion of the people

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.01.13 17:36:00 - [13]
 

Thanks for the replies. I see that the older players would indeed regard any change in skill training times as very unfair. I also see that I am not the only one who has doubts as to the value of the long training times, especially for newer players. I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be the case that all players would benefit if new players were more inclined to go into losec? As it currently stands, it seems that newer players simply don't stand a chance, possibly due to the same older players decrying a change in skill training times popping them the second they hit their first 0.4 gate camp, AND, those same new players can't exactly do PvP in hisec (for obvious reasons unless they get tricked into shooting at a flipper, in which case they're usually toast as well).

Also, someone here mentioned that if the skill training times (at least for newer players) were to be reduced, then CCP would have to add more content. Don't you think that CCP should be making the game more interesting, and not relying on methods such as skill training times to keep them in game?

So I ask, how can CCP make the game more interesting for newer players? As it stands, almost no new players would bother to venture into losec for the reasons mentioned above. Wouldn't a new form of Wardec, such as allowing formal duels (two players agree to fight one another in hisec) be a better way to keep the game interesting?

Duels might be what CCP and all the older players have been looking for: A way to make the game interesting for new players without the risk of losing everything they spent their RL time on by being wacked in losec the second they venture down there? It would give players a tase of PvP without the risk of being caught in the wrong ship at the wrong place.

Anyone?

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2009.01.13 18:01:00 - [14]
 

CCP's not going to regulate the game and I back them in their clause. Eve's a sandbox, if you want consensual pvp, go to world of warcraft.

Annatar
The Galactic Empire
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.01.13 19:40:00 - [15]
 

I just want to point out a thing that i haven'd seen here so far.

CCP has (over the last Years) done some actions for new Players.

1) Advanced Learning skills (afaik there wherend there on the release date)
2) Every now and then new and better Implants (there wherend any at the release)
Additionally they are now, considered from old times, all time avialable and dirt Cheap
3) Rising the Skillpoints for new created Chars to something around 800k-900k SP
from something like 225k-400k SP.

I understand that it is HARD to get into Eve and thats HARDER to Skill when you are new and all time the "old ones" runnign around.
The only hind i can give you is to take a close look on your Specialisation.

With like 6 month dedicated Training in an special area you have a very good chance to get an better Skillbased Bonus in like Gallente Assoult Frigates then me.
A second Account helps a lot, not only isk wise and not only in the beginning.

Don't forget your welcome Wink
You currently have 288 skills and 81,102,014 skill points

Annatar
The Galactic Empire
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.01.13 21:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks

Also, someone here mentioned that if the skill training times (at least for newer players) were to be reduced, then CCP would have to add more content. Don't you think that CCP should be making the game more interesting, and not relying on methods such as skill training times to keep them in game?....

So I ask, how can CCP make the game more interesting for newer players? As it stands, almost no new players would bother to venture into losec for the reasons mentioned above. .....
Duels might be what CCP and all the older players have been looking for: A way to make the game interesting for new players without the risk of losing everything they spent their RL time on by being wacked in losec the second they venture down there? It would give players a tase of PvP without the risk of being caught in the wrong ship at the wrong place.
Anyone?


WEll i am preatty Happy that CCP don't running behind every new Player and keeping up the "hard Line" of a PvP game.

Its an rather easy thing to keep a low profile, stay in empire and for wardecs stay in an NPC corp.

We don't have the Space nor the servers to run around witth 1-2 or even 3 Million Players.
Talks of that kind remembers me on the "new plaing experience patch" in SWG wich ruined the game, with the only goal to get more profitable for SONY.


Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2009.01.13 21:38:00 - [17]
 

This game is about bein able to advance your character in game even though you have a life outside the game. If you want a game where you can quickly advance, through action or not, there are plenty of them out there. I'd have to say that the vast majority of players feel the same.

Johli
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.13 21:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Annatar
I just want to point out a thing that i haven'd seen here so far.

CCP has (over the last Years) done some actions for new Players.

1) Advanced Learning skills (afaik there wherend there on the release date)
2) Every now and then new and better Implants (there wherend any at the release)
Additionally they are now, considered from old times, all time avialable and dirt Cheap
3) Rising the Skillpoints for new created Chars to something around 800k-900k SP
from something like 225k-400k SP.

I understand that it is HARD to get into Eve and thats HARDER to Skill when you are new and all time the "old ones" runnign around.
The only hind i can give you is to take a close look on your Specialisation.

With like 6 month dedicated Training in an special area you have a very good chance to get an better Skillbased Bonus in like Gallente Assoult Frigates then me.
A second Account helps a lot, not only isk wise and not only in the beginning.

Don't forget your welcome Wink
You currently have 288 skills and 81,102,014 skill points


You're being too generous. I started out with 5000 freaking skillpoints.

@OP: lol.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2009.01.13 22:25:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Annatar
I just want to point out a thing that i haven'd seen here so far.

CCP has (over the last Years) done some actions for new Players.

1) Advanced Learning skills (afaik there wherend there on the release date)
2) Every now and then new and better Implants (there wherend any at the release)
Additionally they are now, considered from old times, all time avialable and dirt Cheap
3) Rising the Skillpoints for new created Chars to something around 800k-900k SP
from something like 225k-400k SP.

I understand that it is HARD to get into Eve and thats HARDER to Skill when you are new and all time the "old ones" runnign around.
The only hind i can give you is to take a close look on your Specialisation.

With like 6 month dedicated Training in an special area you have a very good chance to get an better Skillbased Bonus in like Gallente Assoult Frigates then me.
A second Account helps a lot, not only isk wise and not only in the beginning.

Don't forget your welcome Wink
You currently have 288 skills and 81,102,014 skill points


You're being too generous. I started out with 5000 freaking skillpoints.

@OP: lol.


Indeed, and I am still angry that they increased starter SP. THAT ALONE was too newb-friendly, this (OP's "idea") is just outrageous.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.01.14 00:13:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Annatar

WEll i am preatty Happy that CCP don't running behind every new Player and keeping up the "hard Line" of a PvP game.

Its an rather easy thing to keep a low profile, stay in empire and for wardecs stay in an NPC corp.

We don't have the Space nor the servers to run around witth 1-2 or even 3 Million Players.
Talks of that kind remembers me on the "new plaing experience patch" in SWG wich ruined the game, with the only goal to get more profitable for SONY.


I gather you must work for CCP, judging by your comment "We don't have the space or the servers...". If the above really is the case, then why does CCP actually advertise the game as it does? Do you think CCP is doing so well on its core 80k or so players that it doesn't need any more? So your answer would be to subscribe to another account?

Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.01.14 00:28:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Re''taka on 14/01/2009 00:29:53
Originally by: Mike C
Originally by: Johli
Originally by: Annatar
I just want to point out a thing that i haven'd seen here so far.

CCP has (over the last Years) done some actions for new Players.

1) Advanced Learning skills (afaik there wherend there on the release date)
2) Every now and then new and better Implants (there wherend any at the release)
Additionally they are now, considered from old times, all time avialable and dirt Cheap
3) Rising the Skillpoints for new created Chars to something around 800k-900k SP
from something like 225k-400k SP.

I understand that it is HARD to get into Eve and thats HARDER to Skill when you are new and all time the "old ones" runnign around.
The only hind i can give you is to take a close look on your Specialisation.

With like 6 month dedicated Training in an special area you have a very good chance to get an better Skillbased Bonus in like Gallente Assoult Frigates then me.
A second Account helps a lot, not only isk wise and not only in the beginning.

Don't forget your welcome Wink
You currently have 288 skills and 81,102,014 skill points


You're being too generous. I started out with 5000 freaking skillpoints.

@OP: lol.


Indeed, and I am still angry that they increased starter SP. THAT ALONE was too newb-friendly, this (OP's "idea") is just outrageous.


Man I feel sorry for you guys, I started with 30,000 SP :) and still didn't ***** as much as all these noobs.

EDIT: LOL AT OP, no need to chance the skill system, its fine as is, and I'm not a old school 80+ mil sp vet.

Emporors Champian
Posted - 2009.01.14 01:22:00 - [22]
 

what you do is allow a new player in his first 30 days from activation double skill train speed long as it is not a skill that cant be trained on trial account if you attempt to train one of those skills you train as normal.

idealy this will help the smart players get through learning skills faster but you have 30 dayse of double skill training on basic skills.

this is my idea to give the lil guy a bone.

this better idea for the rest of eve skill training mechanics work fine and never ever need any change

Red Flag
Posted - 2009.01.14 02:27:00 - [23]
 

When I started playing Eve, I started with very few skills. I was stuck in frigates for quite a while.

New players can start with frigate V. Command Skills, Learning Skills, and all sorts of skills that took older players a long time to learn.

New players start with more skill points now then players who began years ago.

New players also start with learning skills, and have learning skills which can help them catch up.

When I was a new player, I felt the same way. "How can I ever catch up?"

The thing is, the jump from level 4 to level 5 on a lot of skills is HUGE. So older players have spent a lot of time getting their skills to level 5, but level for is often good enough (and is at least almost as good).

Starting off with more skills now then they did then, Implants and Learning skills, etc. You have nothing to worry about.

=-=-=-=-=

I have an alt character that I trained up to fly a command ship. I started it last year and that character is already a formidable PvP character.

Sure, my alt can't fly every ship in the game like the I can, but he can fly one ship in the game as well as or better then my main toon can. (That particular ship.)

Re'taka
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Emporors Champian
what you do is allow a new player in his first 30 days from activation double skill train speed long as it is not a skill that cant be trained on trial account if you attempt to train one of those skills you train as normal.

idealy this will help the smart players get through learning skills faster but you have 30 dayse of double skill training on basic skills.

this is my idea to give the lil guy a bone.

this better idea for the rest of eve skill training mechanics work fine and never ever need any change


You can post this 10 more times and it will still be a stupid idea, just because you think you have the answer doesn't mean post it 50 times.

TBH the best idea is to leave it alone, only noobs, and morons tell noobs to train all there learning skills to start with, here is an idea train them when you need them.

You want to fly that osprey, cool, train frig to lvl 4 and cruiser to lvl 1, not that hard, forget the fricking learning skills for this, they will only save you a day anyway, not worth it in the short run. In the long run, you will ofc want to train them, but thats later, train for some fun, then train the crap skills.

Isabella Montague
Gallente
RUDE Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:50:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mike C
Indeed, and I am still angry that they increased starter SP. THAT ALONE was too newb-friendly, this (OP's "idea") is just outrageous.


Yes because what's more fun in a race than having a head-start, right. I'm sure there have been skills who's training time has been 'adjusted' over the years because it was found too fast. Older players have got those skills all trained and of course like looking down at everyone, so they don't want anything to change. Not only do these older players have a head start, everyone else has a handycap - fun!

People often use RL as a comparison of why things are the way they are in EVE, so I will do no different: In RL as technology advances, there's often developments that make doing things that used to take time and a lot of effort become faster and/or easy. For example; milking cows. Farmers used to have to milk each cow one at a time, and that took forever and was hard work. Now farmers can milk 60+ cows all at once if they wanted/had to. Just plug the suction cups in and flip a switch.

Why couldn't a similar advancement be made in EVE? Especially now that T3 ships are coming out. I'm not saying a huge drop in training times, but just enough to shave a few days/week off the longest times, a few hours for medium skills, and maybe even a few minutes off of the shorter skills too.

EVE is hitting retail again anyways. Unfortunately, the way things work in retail is that they get dumbed down (too much), so this reduction is training times probably WILL happen. I just hope they keep it reasonable, and I think everyone would benefit.

Hammering Hank
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.14 05:55:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Hammering Hank on 14/01/2009 05:55:36
EVE is different than most other MMOs for the fact that a group of new characters flying frigs can kill a veteran player flying a battleship. This is unlike WOW, where a group of level 15 characters have no chance against one level 75 character. The veteran EVE player has trained more skills, but the game relies more on tactics and strategy than skills.

Changes to the system where a character can max out skills in a relatively short time, like 1 year, steals from the draw of EVE. EVE is about creating your own character, not a character like everyone else. This is an MMO that encourages corporations and alliances that dictates the future of the EVE universe. A new character can easily join a corporation that will teach, protect, and play the game with him. And any alliance needs all types of characters to succeed. EVE is not a simple game, and has never attempted to be so. And it is a very fun game when your group of frigs ambushes a ratting battleship.

The learning skills are another discussion, and most agree they are a waste of time. However, they are setup in such a way to provide another part of the sand box approach to EVE. A character can choose which learning skill to train that best suites their long term goals, like perception and willpower for gunnery skills and intelligence and memory for science skills. Any changes to the learning skills is going to have to be thought out very carefully in order to keep that part of the sand box.


Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
Posted - 2009.01.14 10:03:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Thanks for the replies. I see that the older players would indeed regard any change in skill training times as very unfair. I also see that I am not the only one who has doubts as to the value of the long training times, especially for newer players. I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be the case that all players would benefit if new players were more inclined to go into losec? As it currently stands, it seems that newer players simply don't stand a chance, possibly due to the same older players decrying a change in skill training times popping them the second they hit their first 0.4 gate camp, AND, those same new players can't exactly do PvP in hisec (for obvious reasons unless they get tricked into shooting at a flipper, in which case they're usually toast as well).

Also, someone here mentioned that if the skill training times (at least for newer players) were to be reduced, then CCP would have to add more content. Don't you think that CCP should be making the game more interesting, and not relying on methods such as skill training times to keep them in game?

So I ask, how can CCP make the game more interesting for newer players? As it stands, almost no new players would bother to venture into losec for the reasons mentioned above. Wouldn't a new form of Wardec, such as allowing formal duels (two players agree to fight one another in hisec) be a better way to keep the game interesting?

Duels might be what CCP and all the older players have been looking for: A way to make the game interesting for new players without the risk of losing everything they spent their RL time on by being wacked in losec the second they venture down there? It would give players a tase of PvP without the risk of being caught in the wrong ship at the wrong place.

Anyone?


I started a little over 2 years ago with 20k sp. Eve is hard, the way it should be. Frankly the majority of new players and their views I don't get. Just because you are training a skill that takes 10-30 days, it doesn't mean you can't PLAY during those 10-30 days that skill is training. Eve is a sandbox, find your own path. If your own path leads out of the sandbox to some other game, then so be it.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2009.01.14 11:26:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks


The caveat is that I think CCP mainly uses the long skill training times as an attempt to try and keep people in the game (the future rewards of long hard work, etc), except that I think it doesn't work all that well. I have a strong feeling that one of the main game elements of eve is simply the training itself.



This used to be the case until they disabled ghost training. People had a reason to set a long skill and take a breather. The skill completing was a carrot to resub and play some more with the new toys the skill enabled.

Sadly this is now lost so skilling is now just a pain to drag through. Just hope your not bored waiting 30 days for a Lv5 skill.

I'm only posting this because CCP gave me 5 days to temp me to resub. I won't though. I'll wait for the next content patch and then see if there's anything interesting to stay for.

Ivena Amethyst
Posted - 2009.01.14 12:20:00 - [29]
 

this is the worst idéa i've seen since someone wanted to boost the falcon

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2009.01.14 12:49:00 - [30]
 

The core of the problem isn't that some skillz require a week, or three weeks, or more than seven weeks (and I'm not kidding!) to train to level 5.

The real problem, the core, is that some skillz have other skillz at level 5 as prerequisite, often in cases where the (new) player mostly wants the second skill, and sees needing to train the first skill from level 4 to level 5 as a pointless and cruel chore.

The solution is to take a hard, coherent and experienced look at skill prerequisites, every time one skill requires another at level 5, and then lowers most of those prerequisites to level 4.

Thermodynamics is one example. You need that skill to be able to use overheating at all, but you can't learn Thermodynamics at all until you've trained Engineering to level 5. That's one example of a stupidly high prerequisite, and it should be dropped to the much more accessible Engineering 4.

(Nevermind the fact that Engineering at 5 is really, truly, deeply and profoundly useful, and that the overheating mechanic is utterly useless; I'm using Thermodynamics of one example among many, where the new player's access to game content is delayed by needlessly high skill prerequistes.)


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