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Lord Reginald
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:03:00 - [1]
 

I'm thinking about getting one of these ships but not too sure as to which one....
I can fly all 4 so choice isnt an option...I have good drone skills and I very good t2 large laser skills.

Which brings me to the conclusion that it will either be the Amarr or Gallente one, but which one???

Someone help me out

Ralarina
Caldari
Vivicide
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:08:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ralarina on 09/01/2009 13:09:22
neither, they're both sht.

only the Widow is worth even considering because of it's ECM and missile systems but even that's sht.

EDIT: and I'm not being sarcastic or intentionally obtuse. They are terrible ships.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:12:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Ralarina

EDIT: and I'm not being sarcastic or intentionally obtuse. They are terrible ships.


Unfortunately, this is true. They came pre-nerfed more than george w bush.

Venomae
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:16:00 - [4]
 

Redeemer and Sin both are fun. Redeemer throws nice DPS.

Pick a nice bottleneck system wich your enemies have to use. Get some friends in recons. Profit.

Don't worry about the above whiners.

They are just FOTM-*****s.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.09 13:24:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 09/01/2009 13:24:21
Originally by: Venomae
Redeemer and Sin both are fun. Redeemer throws nice DPS.

Pick a nice bottleneck system wich your enemies have to use. Get some friends in recons. Profit.

Don't worry about the above whiners.

They are just FOTM-*****s.



Yeah me and ralara are both inexperienced whining nublets when it comes to internet spaceships.

Ralarina
Caldari
Vivicide
Posted - 2009.01.09 15:51:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ralarina on 09/01/2009 15:51:07
Originally by: Venomae

They are just FOTM-*****s.


ugh

Can I fly a Falcon? Nope.

Can I fly Amarr at all? Nope.

Have I ever flown a Vagabond? Nope.

...

And I don't think the Wyvern has been a FOTM yet. LaughingRolling Eyes


EDIT: and, erm, who are you? Question

De Guantanamo
Posted - 2009.01.09 15:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ralarina


EDIT: and, erm, who are you? Question


He's Federal Defense Union. Very important. Nuff said.

Sir Ninja
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.01.09 17:20:00 - [8]
 

Hide the hookers mates the FDU is here !!!!
oh ya...fly a Nos/neut domi or a geddon nuff said...
Laughing

eXtas
NibbleTek
Posted - 2009.01.09 17:31:00 - [9]
 

they are both crap... beter of buying 5 domis/geddons and fitting a t2 cloak, they will be a lot better.

the bad scan res on the black ops makes the cloaking bonus pointless.. recalibration time on a normal bs is only 10s anyway and you will need a takler.

widow got some use because of ecm but...

panther was awsome for bumping but not anymore, now only use is with smartbombs fitted, no recalibration delay and 4s align time but typhoon outpreforms it allso :P

Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.01.09 18:37:00 - [10]
 

OP - Sok is actually very experienced in most things when it comes to forum whoring, so you cant go wrong listening to him. However, as with any discussion, opinions vary.

Such as, i used to fly black ops quite alot, as often as i could actually. And i had very little success with them. And when i say very little....i mean VERY VERY little. However, ive recently moved to 0.0 (was in lowsec before) and have no reinvested in one, for the use of the portal. However, its purely my location, and the systems that are in range, that make it of use. If the systems were slightly differently placed (in terms of lightyears), then it would serve little use.

The widow many consider the best, due to its ECM, as stated already. However, the ECM is very limited. The ECM strength of the Widow is the same as a Griffin...which ofc, is a t1 frig. Nothing impressive. And the ECM range is appauling. 40-50km with multispecs. As such, the ships ecm is no use, bar from jamming tacklers. In which case, you're doing something wrong.

Anyhow - Im going off the point, seeing as how you didnt even ask about the Widow. Fact is, i bought this Widow, as im still training for a Redeemer. When that time comes, the Widow goes to market, and Redeemer to hangar. Why? Simple:

  • Redeemer has very small ammo needs. As such, you can have more fuel in your cargo bay. And if you're not aware, black ops are EXTREMELY awkward when it comes to fuel. True, they use small amounts in comparison to a carrier. But we have space for a few thousand. Compared to tens of thousands for a carrier.

  • Redeemer also has more dps than most of them. I believe the Sin outdamages the Redeemer, but thats close range/sentry drones, which is somewhat limiting. Especially in comparison to instant uncloak-dps-cloak.

  • Tank - Amarr tanks are generally better than most other armor tanks, and as such, redeemer CAN support a strong tank theoretically. However, black ops have weaker stats than their tech 1 counterparts....and Geddons arent known for their tanks. Let alone black ops....

  • Cap booster! Cap boosters are rarely used, however! When it comes time for the long wished and awaited fuel bay (GM's have said they'll add it, but no comment on when), it means the Redeemer will be able to have large amounts of cap injectors in its cargo bay, instead of fuel. Whilst a Sin can do this, again, Amarr can do long range. A Sin can only do long range with sentries (ish)

  • Lock Time. Again, doesnt really help distinguish between the Sin and Redeemer, but it does between the Widow and Sin/Redeemer. All black ops suffer penalties from their cloaks. True, they dont get a recalibration time (you can lock a target straight after decloaking). However, you DO get a scan resolution nerf. The same as fitting a cloak on any normal ship. As such, you take as long as a carrier pretty much to lock a target. However, in practical use...a Widow is a shield tanking (mids) ECM spamming (mids) boat. So...on an already overneeded midslot section, you also need to find the space for sensor boosters. Both the sin and redeemer are armor tankers, and as such, are able to lock faster than the other two black ops.


Im going to stop there, cos i feel im just spamming. But in short, black ops arent the best ships, as stated. However, ive been flying them a while, and even the 'best' black ops...and im going for a redeemer. I atleast can see how one could fly that...a Sin tho? Bah.

Hope it helps,

Wax

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.01.09 23:50:00 - [11]
 

Besides some fuel bay issues (lack of) the Black Ops Class ships work fine for their role. But it depends on what your thinking of doing with them. Tell me more and I can say yes/no to whether it will work.

--Isaac

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.01.09 23:56:00 - [12]
 

Black Ops rocks my socks! Sneaking through low-sec with my haulers full of Veldspar and you don't even know it! haha!

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2009.01.10 00:57:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/01/2009 01:01:56
Well, i think Waxau brought up most of the important tidbits already.

Just let me complain a bit though. I'll try to be as constructive as i can Wink.

Blackops have a big issue in that CCP have made an attempt to cram in too many roles to fill with it. Blackops would be good enough as oversized bombers with portals. They don't need EWar, definately not if having it means they are to do all these different things they can potentially do, halfarsed. Let them be good 'Bombers' and wanted for their excellent and interesting jump portals instead.

A second issue is reflected well in Chribbas response. The ship is expensive. That can be okay though (if the ship is made even more survivable i could easily accept that...) it isn't a ship for everyone. Both in terms of cost and SP requirements. That few people fly it adds to it's 'cool'.

But, I have heard that upkeep cost is another issue. That will probably annoy people's wallets more over time, than the event of losing the ship, and that is a more likely reason as to why the ships are not flown often enough. If you are not called Chribba of course, where ISK isn't an issue. It's the same as with Bombs on Bombers. You have this really cool concept here, that would make the game far more dynamic and interesting, if it was well worth using. Now it's something you can use in specific situations, but generally opt out of. Unique and special is cool, novelty isn't.

I shouldn't moan to loudly, i don't fly the ship class myself. But, needless to say, even for corporations that have players who can fly the Blackops, or even those who already own a Blackops - using the portal to warp around a gang when you are just out looking for trouble (and fun) - do not seem feasible. Well, you don't see people doing it anyway. Sure, you may not warp around Capitals for fun either, but somewhere deep down the ideal for the Blackops feel like it's a ship to escape the common gate camp, blob, blockade situations of stalemate with. Blackops could break the stalemate, but don't seem to fill that role very well at the moment.

It's just a shame every time you see a cool ship that people don't use, or a unique function on a ship that it's owners just don't consider worth using. Shame.


Lord Reginald
Posted - 2009.01.10 07:46:00 - [14]
 

Thx for all the replies..
The reason why I'm asking about black ops is the next patch.

You have prob seen the certificate..wormhole navagation it requires jump portal generation and with the not so good a role the black ops ships have atm, brought me to start thinking they might change the role of this ship a little to a wormhole finding ship.

I think ill wait on this one a little until the dev blog or patch notes come out.

Sera Ryskin
Posted - 2009.01.10 08:24:00 - [15]
 

They suck at the moment, for two reasons:

1) The jump bridge ability is incredibly limited due to lack of cargo space for fuel. On the other hand, there is a fuel bay boost in the near future that should fix this problem to some degree. Whether we'll actually get enough to jump a worthwhile gang, or just a token recon or two, remains to be seen.

2) In direct combat they suck. Carriers do everything, do it better, do more, and do it for only a bit more ISK. T1 battleships will massacre a black ops effortlessly, and cost a tiny fraction of the ISK. So even with a fuel bay boost, you have a 500 million ISK logistics ship that never gets into combat. Yay.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.10 11:42:00 - [16]
 

Black Ops are awesome pvp ships. Most people don't understand blackops or what makes them great (as you can tell by the responses thus far). To me it seems obvious, "just look at the ships abilities!" But apparently it's not obvious to most people, I've tried explaining it dozens of times but forum trolls don't post on forums to exchange thoughts or actually learn anything, so it just drowns out any chance of educating anyone who genuinely wants to learn.

I have put a bit of thought into some of the different types of people who play eve and I will say that blackops are not for everyone. If you love force recon style guerilla warfare/tactics, then blackops are perfect for you. By that I mean, if you're the type of player who enjoyed flying force recons in the pre-nos & pre-damp nerf era in solo/small gang situations. If your only experience with force recons are a: Falcons, or b: as part of 20-30man nano gangs before the recent nano-nerf, then no, you probably won't get the appeal of the ships.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.01.10 11:46:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Misanth on 10/01/2009 11:48:32
Originally by: Rajere
Black Ops are awesome pvp ships. Most people don't understand blackops or what makes them great (as you can tell by the responses thus far). To me it seems obvious, "just look at the ships abilities!" But apparently it's not obvious to most people, I've tried explaining it dozens of times but forum trolls don't post on forums to exchange thoughts or actually learn anything, so it just drowns out any chance of educating anyone who genuinely wants to learn.

I have put a bit of thought into some of the different types of people who play eve and I will say that blackops are not for everyone. If you love force recon style guerilla warfare/tactics, then blackops are perfect for you. By that I mean, if you're the type of player who enjoyed flying force recons in the pre-nos & pre-damp nerf era in solo/small gang situations. If your only experience with force recons are a: Falcons, or b: as part of 20-30man nano gangs before the recent nano-nerf, then no, you probably won't get the appeal of the ships.


Funny, I think of it the other way. The ideal setup to make a Black Ops useful, is a gang of 5-20 guys that coordinate some recon action in a certain area.

You don't want to move the Black Ops around, it's the spider in the net. The Recons move around, the recons kill. The BS is there as a mobile base to coordinate strikes, collect loot, etc.

That's why I believe people miss out the point on the Black Ops. They want to move it around, like they move their recons. They want to do solo or twoman PvP in it. They refuse to see it's strengths as a support platform. Etc, I can go on.

I would love to see them get some buff, but tbh, that'd be to make them like a recon-carrier. Remove all their e-war and damage possibilities, buff their cargo capacity immensely, make them better at jumping recons around. That'd make them bloody awsome at the role they already do pretty good today. Hell, even give them a slight ship hangar to move replacement ships for the strike team that permacamps hostile space.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.01.10 12:04:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 10/01/2009 12:04:32
Blackops? "tackle it fast - will make good show on killboard". Would buy 3-4 HACs instead of blackops any day (and probably kill some blackops in the process with them).

Was playing with/against Sin on sisi - its fun in 1v1 closerange gankage but as soon as you meet some harder target (like normal pvp BS) you are going down. So all you have left is ganking NPCers.

Redeemer? HORRIBLE fitting issues. CPU on that ship is in negative numbers. And contrary to what Waxau said its tank looked weaker than command ship (absolution) tank (tho it deals more dps - around 1000 in megapulse/hvy dronage fit). But i would never move it closer than 50km from enemy myself. Its paper-mashe and one wrong tackler and you are 500mil down the drain.

Or like extas said: just buy 4 geddons and fit them with cloaks. Both redeemer and geddon need "pre-tackle" from other person, so you might aswell bring cheaper ship and deal more pewpew.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.10 12:09:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 10/01/2009 12:33:20
Quote:
Funny, I think of it the other way. The ideal setup to make a Black Ops useful, is a gang of 5-20 guys that coordinate some recon action in a certain area.
gang size is in proportion to the groups you are attacking, but i'm with you so far

Quote:
You don't want to move the Black Ops around, it's the spider in the net. The Recons move around, the recons kill. The BS is there as a mobile base to coordinate strikes, collect loot, etc.

That's why I believe people miss out the point on the Black Ops. They want to move it around, like they move their recons. They want to do solo or twoman PvP in it. They refuse to see it's strengths as a support platform. Etc, I can go on.


You are both so very right, and so very wrong at the same time. It's a bit eerie actually. Your right that people want to fly their blackops around like it's a recon. That's why you see so many people asking for covert ops cloaking device. They don't understand the blackops role in a gang, that it's a battleship so the things you need a CovOps cloak to do (get past a bubble/gate camp, looking around to find targets, then warping in and getting positioned on them so you can tackle them without them seeing you), you would not be able to do with a blackops, with or without a covert ops cloak. It's not designed to do those things, it would be horrible at it, but most importantly it doesn't need to worry about doing them, that's what the recons are for. It has a different role which is alot more fun, but that role has nothing to do with support, or jump portaling lazy recons around.

Quote:
I would love to see them get some buff, but tbh, that'd be to make them like a recon-carrier. Remove all their e-war and damage possibilities, buff their cargo capacity immensely, make them better at jumping recons around. That'd make them bloody awsome at the role they already do pretty good today. Hell, even give them a slight ship hangar to move replacement ships for the strike team that permacamps hostile space.
worst idea to "improve" the ships yet. No idea why you think they are pretty good at that "role" now, They suck at it. People who think that is their "role" is one of the main reasons why people think the ships themselves suck. First because the role isn't necessary *at all* for what you're thinking of doing with it (shuttling around force recon gangs); and second, even if that role could be useful in some situations (it can be), it's still not a role, certainly not a role worth devoting an entire class of ships to. It's a task, a job, an inconvenience. Something you'd log in an alt to do, and then log the alt back off again once you're done.

Quote:
Or like extas said: just buy 4 geddons and fit them with cloaks. Both redeemer and geddon need "pre-tackle" from other person, so you might aswell bring cheaper ship and deal more pewpew.
Yeah, on sisi sure. On TQ there is no arena to warp to where you are assured to have things to shoot at no matter what. The only reason you are in the redeemer instead of the geddon in the first place is because using the geddon isn't feasible for the specific engagement you are about to have. There's a multitude of reasons why you wouldn't be able use a geddon, to list a few: timing is a critical factor of the engagement, There are hostiles between you and your target and you literally cannot get a geddon there alive, the other gang won't fight and will run away if you bring even half their numbers thus you can't just fly your whole gang over to fight them, there in a pocket of lowsec behind highsec you cannot get to (ie your an outlaw), etc.

If you fight blobs alot, you should appreciate what blackops enable you to do. If you are the blobber, then no, you won't get it.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.01.10 13:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Rajere

Quote:
Or like extas said: just buy 4 geddons and fit them with cloaks. Both redeemer and geddon need "pre-tackle" from other person, so you might aswell bring cheaper ship and deal more pewpew.
Yeah, on sisi sure. On TQ there is no arena to warp to where you are assured to have things to shoot at no matter what. The only reason you are in the redeemer instead of the geddon in the first place is because using the geddon isn't feasible for the specific engagement you are about to have. There's a multitude of reasons why you wouldn't be able use a geddon, to list a few: timing is a critical factor of the engagement,



Timing? Geddon kills targets a bit faster and locks about the same. If you decloak while landing on grid you dont have to wait 10-15 seconds for recalibration. Exactly same way as you use cloaking HACs. Thus time is similiar for both (sometimes blackops get advantage due to recalibration, sometimes geddon due to DPS).

Quote:

There are hostiles between you and your target and you literally cannot get a geddon there alive



There is almost no way to stop ship from moving around. You can evade even heaviest gatecamps by log on-log off trick (if you log w/o agression you will reappear outside of bubbles). Anyways this one is far stretched on both sides anyways.

Quote:

, the other gang won't fight and will run away if you bring even half their numbers thus you can't just fly your whole gang over to fight them, there in a pocket of lowsec behind highsec you cannot get to (ie your an outlaw), etc.



Another far stretched assumptions. Or just send plated bait ship. Or crystal set maelstrom. Or whatever - already found ships that will do the job...

Quote:

If you fight blobs alot, you should appreciate what blackops enable you to do. If you are the blobber, then no, you won't get it.


Another "i like to say obvious things". But thing is: blackops is very bad against blobbers. Geddon is not. You can easily whistand 2-3 sniper or crap fit battleships in normal RR geddon (and still win) wheras blackops will be toe-to-toe with 1 crapfit BS.

So yea - except for some "once in a milion" situations you shown there is not much sense of using bops instead of normal geddon. From what i played i can think off maybe 5 cases when having blackops would be better than flying normal ship (those were DPS needed for logoffski freighter and me being 10+ jumps away). But thing is: s1 would have to bring a cyno anyways and cyno is not the most needed module in roaming gangs.

So if op wonders if BOps are worth it at all - no they are not. Better spend your time maxing respective battleships (amarr if you like FOTM, but they will get nerfed sooner or later). In meanwhile you can train for carriers and stuff which will bring you very close to BOps. And when CCP finally decides to fix them - then you will be like 1-2 weeks away from lvl4 blackops...

Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.01.10 22:58:00 - [21]
 

hmm - Thanks for the info there Deva about the Redeemer tank. I havent run the stats thru EFT, to see the tank in comparison. But hmm - Thx for the info. Bought a Widow in the meantime anyhow. Its surving me well as a ninjaratter Twisted Evil

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.11 00:00:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 11/01/2009 00:04:27
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Timing? Geddon kills targets a bit faster and locks about the same. If you decloak while landing on grid you dont have to wait 10-15 seconds for recalibration. Exactly same way as you use cloaking HACs. Thus time is similiar for both (sometimes blackops get advantage due to recalibration, sometimes geddon due to DPS).
lol, decloak while landing on grid? So your geddon is cloaked up somewhere sitting in local? lol. If you don't understand a: how silly that is and b: how devastatingly limiting it is to your engagement options to the point where you may as well be sitting in a belt cloaked waiting for a ratter to come to you, since it has the same effect. GL with that.

The reality is, Blackops can kill a target before:
A defense gang already in system can warp in to respond
gangmates waiting on the other side of a gate can jump in and warp to the target
the 60 second deagression timer ends allowing them to jump/dock whatever it is they're hugging.
As well as:
Your silly cloaked geddon could reach warp velocity, warp in, and get a lock on the target.


Quote:
There is almost no way to stop ship from moving around. You can evade even heaviest gatecamps by log on-log off trick (if you log w/o agression you will reappear outside of bubbles). Anyways this one is far stretched on both sides anyways.

lolwut? Log off in a bubble brosef let me know how that works for you. learn2gamemechanics

Quote:
Another far stretched assumptions. Or just send plated bait ship. Or crystal set maelstrom. Or whatever - already found ships that will do the job...
Far stretched assumptions? yeah whatever, one man's far stretched assumptions is another man's daily reality. Oh wait, lets see: most people out there are afraid to lose ships, no one will willingly engage another group in a "fair" fight, people will not engage unless they have every conceivable advantage and would rather avoid pvp if they might lose than get a fight at all. Hrm, seems that EVERYONE out there agrees with me on this one, so everyone elses reality is really just your 'far stretched assumptions." Some people (read: everyone) scouts more than just what's in local and whats on the other side of one gate before they even consider forming up to engage, so no, your "solutions" aren't solutions at all.

Quote:
Another "i like to say obvious things". But thing is: blackops is very bad against blobbers. Geddon is not. You can easily whistand 2-3 sniper or crap fit battleships in normal RR geddon (and still win) wheras blackops will be toe-to-toe with 1 crapfit BS.
another of your "I like to say horribly inaccurate things"? Battleships are horrible against opponents who simply blob you. They're slow, you see them coming from a mile away, you know exactly where they are, how many they have, and where they are going. You know precisely how many "need moar Xs!!!" you need to apply to which gate in order to blob them, leaving your battleships with the options of: turning around and going home, or jumping in anyway and dying. Once again, If you fight blobs alot, you should appreciate what blackops enable you to do. If you are the blobber, then no, you won't get it.

You sir, don't get it.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.11 00:09:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: kessah on 11/01/2009 00:09:24
I wont give you a long forum post as others have.

Il just tell you, the Redeemer.

You need two jumps worth of fuel, Jump to get you there a jump to get you back. The rest are cap charges.


Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.11 00:30:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: kessah
Edited by: kessah on 11/01/2009 00:09:24
I wont give you a long forum post as others have.

Il just tell you, the Redeemer.



confirmed.

Generally speaking, Redeemer > Widow > Panther > Sin

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.01.11 02:18:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2009 02:19:28
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2009 02:18:46
Originally by: Rajere
lol, decloak while landing on grid? So your geddon is cloaked up somewhere sitting in local? lol. If you don't understand a: how silly that is and b: how devastatingly limiting it is to your engagement options to the point where you may as well be sitting in a belt cloaked waiting for a ratter to come to you, since it has the same effect. GL with that.



Making fool of yourself - priceless. Ask Burn Eden how sitting cloaked at close safes works and how good is it. If you dont know who BE are then well.. go educate yourself.

Quote:

The reality is, Blackops can kill a target before:
A defense gang already in system can warp in to respond
gangmates waiting on the other side of a gate can jump in and warp to the target
the 60 second deagression timer ends allowing them to jump/dock whatever it is they're hugging.



Same can be done by 2 HACs. Dont tell me your BOps warps to belt/stn alone and actually tackles something before that thing decides to warp away - thus you need 2 people anyways.


Quote:

Quote:
There is almost no way to stop ship from moving around. You can evade even heaviest gatecamps by log on-log off trick (if you log w/o agression you will reappear outside of bubbles). Anyways this one is far stretched on both sides anyways.

lolwut? Log off in a bubble brosef let me know how that works for you. learn2gamemechanics



Same to you. Log off in bubble. Wait aggro. Log on. log off before you appear on grid. Log on again. Log off. Log on. Log off. Log on. Suddenly you are not in bubble anymore. Exploit? No - its just game mechanics.

Quote:

Quote:
Another far stretched assumptions. Or just send plated bait ship. Or crystal set maelstrom. Or whatever - already found ships that will do the job...
Far stretched assumptions? yeah whatever, one man's far stretched assumptions is another man's daily reality. Oh wait, lets see: most people out there are afraid to lose ships, no one will willingly engage another group in a "fair" fight, people will not engage unless they have every conceivable advantage and would rather avoid pvp if they might lose than get a fight at all. Hrm, seems that EVERYONE out there agrees with me on this one, so everyone elses reality is really just your 'far stretched assumptions." Some people (read: everyone) scouts more than just what's in local and whats on the other side of one gate before they even consider forming up to engage, so no, your "solutions" aren't solutions at all.



Instead of blabbering drop me your killboard link.

Quote:

Quote:
Another "i like to say obvious things". But thing is: blackops is very bad against blobbers. Geddon is not. You can easily whistand 2-3 sniper or crap fit battleships in normal RR geddon (and still win) wheras blackops will be toe-to-toe with 1 crapfit BS.
another of your "I like to say horribly inaccurate things"? Battleships are horrible against opponents who simply blob you. They're slow, you see them coming from a mile away, you know exactly where they are, how many they have, and where they are going. You know precisely how many "need moar Xs!!!" you need to apply to which gate in order to blob them, leaving your battleships with the options of: turning around and going home, or jumping in anyway and dying. Once again, If you fight blobs alot, you should appreciate what blackops enable you to do. If you are the blobber, then no, you won't get it.

You sir, don't get it.


You are stupid, arent you? Ill let you guess how often im "the evil blobber" based on alliance im in. And like above: killboard link. Or so called proof or stfu.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.11 05:43:00 - [26]
 

it's in the sig brosef.

What do you mean by "wait aggro"? Log off in bubble, you are aggressed, and you do not emergency warp since you are in a bubble. Your ship sits there, gets killed by the people who put the bubble up.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.01.11 06:31:00 - [27]
 

You know what, I've talked to some people ingame and studied Rajere and his corps killboard and I think I've figured out what they do. It is a pretty solid tactic.

1) Use a tackle/passive tank bait force recon. Everyone likes killing a recon, right? Easy kill, little tank is what people think. No one else in local so what could go wrong? People send fast tackle or one person grabs it and yells on voice comms for the blob to come.

2) Throw up covert cyno. Gank Black Ops jump in. Wtf pwn enemy while aligning out. We're talking around 700 DPS per gank BO. Throw down 2-3 gank BOs and you will fry anything cruiser sized in 10 seconds, BCs in 30 seconds and a BS in less than a minute.

3) Warp out. Go to SS and cloak. Rofls.

I'm not exactly sure if the BO equips tackle or moar sensor boosters. I would rather lose the bait force recon than a BO so I would like to use the redeemer (mega pulse scorch) and Sin (launch drones and get lots of range)

The key is that your gank ships are 100% unscoutable and invisible. Not cloaked in local, anyone in local can see that, but in a different system far away but still in jump range is a good hiding spot. You fully control the engagement area, pick a system and go 50 AU away from the nearest gate so the target is fried before help can get there. Now the baiting style may only work a few times, but you can divide their fleet in other ways and use force recons to tackle stragglers or people zooming off on their own to do god knows what.

I'd like to try this one day, got the skills but busy doing other kinds of pew pew atm :)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.01.11 09:48:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2009 09:50:54
Originally by: Rajere
it's in the sig brosef.

What do you mean by "wait aggro"? Log off in bubble, you are aggressed, and you do not emergency warp since you are in a bubble. Your ship sits there, gets killed by the people who put the bubble up.


Yes you sit in the bubble. But if you log off just after jumpin (in bubble) your ship will try to warp. Due to being in bubble it will not warp and will STILL be cloaked. After 30 seconds it decloaks and then enemy has 30 seconds (minus locking time) to actually kill it. Unless you jumped into 50 man gatecamp plated BS will survive this easily thus vanish.

And here we start funfun part. Yes you got aggro - but AFTER being logged off. Thus you still vanish in like i said above, and you have to wait out 15 minutes "hidden" aggro timer.

And now we log on. You DO NOT appear inside of the bubble. You appear 1000 000km away and start warping towards your spot inside bubble (iirc you will land into the bubble if its still there). BUT you can start doing log on/log off trick to push logoff spot (1mil km) further. Thus you land like 2mil km from gate all safe and sound to continue your travel.

Maybe you will understand why i said that its possible with "plated BS". And yea it works on most small-medium gatecamps. Killing 130k EHP (or more) is quite hard especially if you run in full passive setup.

EDIT:
didnt saw the KB yet (just woke up) but if its like you said then... who is being the blobber in that case? Also mobilizing 3-5 people to kill solo cruiser/BS is a bit sad and waste of time on my part.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2009.01.11 10:05:00 - [29]
 

What Deva said Rajere, it works.

And some reply to your comments on my previous post;
It depends what you use it for, yes. I'm assuming you use the Black Ops as an offensive force nonstop camping in hostile home systems. Say your alliance want to siege alliance X. You move in a Black Ops, park it in a backwater system. Of course, for loot and ammo, you could use a blockade runner.

In this scenario you have a number of players, 20-30 tops, that logs off in different systems, mix of recons and HACs. You will have a few players on 23/7. The Black Ops is there to portal people around, not because the recons are "lazy", but because it makes the defenders frustrated. Camp a bottleneck? Not possible. Doesn't matter if you throw in 200 ships, multiple bubbles and a droneswarm. That would be a threat to most recons, in theory, even tho it's unlikely to happen it could. And you just eliminiated that by having the Black Ops around.

That's why I even more feel the BO makes for a great support ship. The way you utilize it is different, obviously, and I've seen BO's used in pretty sexy fashions as well.

Me and some ex-corpmates were out roaming when we were engaged at a gate by some mix of ships. A Drake, some interceptor, something more. We started to nuke the Drake and kept the interceptor at range, when boom, suddenly a covert cyno pops and 3 BO pops in. Three. Plus recons, and a stealthbomber. Needless to say we got slaughtered.

That's a completely role than the one I prefer, but my main reason for wanting to see the BO in a complete support non-offensive role, is what you stated above - a CovOps cloak won't help it (much), since it is big, a battleship hull. You'll have to do the off/on trick Deva talked about. It works, but it'll be bloody slow and obviously you can't roam like this, right? So, I'd rather have interceptors/HAC's stay with the mobile fighting, and the BO to be a semi-stationary support platform for active fighting inside hostile high-sov systems. Ideal to kill their industrialism, their ratting, their morale. Not for racking up killmails.

But then again, I know alot of BO pilots hate me for even suggesting this, they want to pew pew in it. I can fly the ship and would use it if it was more offensive too. The main difference is that the role you want it for, can be filled (somewhat) with other ships. The role I want it for, can't. What are you going to do, put a cloaked titan to cynobridge people around? Razz The portal is a key feature that needs the boost more than anything. It's what makes it annoying, and makes it stand out. They certainly do not need more firepower.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.11 10:28:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 11/01/2009 10:28:37
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/01/2009 09:50:54
Originally by: Rajere
it's in the sig brosef.

What do you mean by "wait aggro"? Log off in bubble, you are aggressed, and you do not emergency warp since you are in a bubble. Your ship sits there, gets killed by the people who put the bubble up.


Yes you sit in the bubble. But if you log off just after jumpin (in bubble) your ship will try to warp. Due to being in bubble it will not warp and will STILL be cloaked. After 30 seconds it decloaks and then enemy has 30 seconds (minus locking time) to actually kill it. Unless you jumped into 50 man gatecamp plated BS will survive this easily thus vanish.

And here we start funfun part. Yes you got aggro - but AFTER being logged off. Thus you still vanish in like i said above, and you have to wait out 15 minutes "hidden" aggro timer.

And now we log on. You DO NOT appear inside of the bubble. You appear 1000 000km away and start warping towards your spot inside bubble (iirc you will land into the bubble if its still there). BUT you can start doing log on/log off trick to push logoff spot (1mil km) further. Thus you land like 2mil km from gate all safe and sound to continue your travel.

Maybe you will understand why i said that its possible with "plated BS". And yea it works on most small-medium gatecamps. Killing 130k EHP (or more) is quite hard especially if you run in full passive setup.

EDIT:
didnt saw the KB yet (just woke up) but if its like you said then... who is being the blobber in that case? Also mobilizing 3-5 people to kill solo cruiser/BS is a bit sad and waste of time on my part.

lol, trying to tell me how CTRL+Q works, yeah ok. I know exactly what you are talking about and how it works (logging off mid jump before you completely exit the first system and have a chance to load grid in the next), and yeah, you may want to verify your info as I've tested and confirmed that it no longer works as of several patches ago. Unless you are saying it was reintroduced in that new bug last patch which allows you to activate a module after jumping, fails to jump you but still gives you a session change timer as if you had jumped?

Tell you what, you bring whatever kind of plated BS you wish to any non-regional 0.0 gate of your choosing and I will bring a comedy dps fit heretic and we'll try it out, yeah? We can do it on tranq or sisi, whenever you wish.


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