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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:18:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
number of damps.
3 ECCM will NOT protect you from any number of ECM, you will get jammed by a handful of ECM.


This is provably false. Now calm down.


Uhm, no. 10 racials will easily jam a cruiser with 3xeccm.
10000000 damps cant damp a Frig with 3xSBs below 10km.

Do you know why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.


10 racials may jam a cruiser with 3 ECCM. There is a real chance that they may not.

If ECM strength was additive, you would be correct. But each ECM module has it's chance to jam calculated independently of any others. Therefore there is a small but definitely non-zero chance that 3 or 6 or even 10 racials may fail to jam a cruiser. Therefore an ECCM will improve the chance of not being jammed since ECCM will always raise a cruiser's sensor strength to greater than that of any possible jamming strength. Therefore an ECCM may protect against any number of jammers; and multiple ECCMs will protect even better.

Q.E.D.: Your statement is provably false.

Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:21:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.



You mean like a falcon?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:24:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.



You mean like a falcon?


Falcons are pretty much ****ed if they're tackled.

Any ship can "disengage at will" at long range. It's not like falcons have any monopoly on being aligned.

So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:29:00 - [394]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?


I've always wanted heat cannons since they introduced the mechanic. Scale the damage correctly so heat cannons damage modules at the same rate guns generally wear out shields/armour and they'd be pretty interesting.

People wouldn't be so quick to overheat their weapons / tank modules anywhere near such a weapon.

Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:30:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.



You mean like a falcon?


Falcons are pretty much ****ed if they're tackled.

Any ship can "disengage at will" at long range. It's not like falcons have any monopoly on being aligned.

So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?


Tackled = jam and warp out

and no i dont :)

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:35:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong

Uhm, no. 10 racials will easily jam a cruiser with 3xeccm.
10000000 damps cant damp a Frig with 3xSBs below 10km.

Do you know why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.


Time to show your unsurpassing ignorance Very Happy

A maller with 3 ECCM has an overload strength of 112
A Falcon with Amarr racials has a strength of 15.12 for each, with 2 rigs and 3 distortion amplifiers II

So supposing many falcons with similar setups used the right racial jammers on you to a total of 10, your chances of being jammed would be:

(1-((0.865)^10)) = 76.54%

Meaning that the TEN RACIALS applied over you have a 23.46% chance of NOT JAMMING YOU!

Now about sensor boosters, a 10 KM frig is pretty much useless, THAT USING 2 SB, which make it impossible for ALMOST ALL FRIGS. A malediction with 3 sensor boosters has NO MWD and no disruptor, for example... Laughing



Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:36:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Kurt Ambrose
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered.



You mean like a falcon?


Falcons are pretty much ****ed if they're tackled.

Any ship can "disengage at will" at long range. It's not like falcons have any monopoly on being aligned.

So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?


Tackled = jam and warp out




Miss jam or get hit by a couple of volleys while waiting for an jammer to cycle = dead, and of course the tacklers buddies would also be in warp to him as well.....

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:37:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: Kurt Ambrose

Tackled = jam and warp out

and no i dont :)


More accurately, Tackled = pray to jam before you are dead.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:49:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Malcanis


So yeah Kurt: you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?


I've always wanted heat cannons since they introduced the mechanic. Scale the damage correctly so heat cannons damage modules at the same rate guns generally wear out shields/armour and they'd be pretty interesting.

People wouldn't be so quick to overheat their weapons / tank modules anywhere near such a weapon.


ooh that would be nice but maybe a teeny bit OP... Wink unless it didn't affect all modules.

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 22:56:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


ooh that would be nice but maybe a teeny bit OP... Wink unless it didn't affect all modules.


I wouldn't do all modules effected via one cannon I'd do different types of heat cannons that effect different types of modules so you'd decide before leaving station what you're targetting.

Sure you could mix to attack weapons/tank at the same time but you'll be half as effective against both and your enemy would be killing your tank quicker the numbers details would need a ton of work and it would add another dimension to combat.

JZIM
Caldari
Drakes With Frickin' Lazerbeams
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:25:00 - [401]
 

Edited by: JZIM on 15/01/2009 23:33:41
Edited by: JZIM on 15/01/2009 23:28:58
Originally by: Malcanis
you got any ideas about something more fun than ECM for Caldari EW?


For fun? Allow jammed ships to immediately initiate lock again during the jam cycle BUT make it so the lock has a percentage chance of 'failing' and locking an incorrect target at random. The outcome would depend mainly on the intended targets attributes - (similar signature radius/sensor strength etc) and maybe the current number of active target locks on the ship ('Primary' targets have greater chance of being incorrectly locked by accident Twisted Evil) targets.

The result? In solo/small gang situations the falcon would stop being quite so overwhelming (fewer ships with greater variety = far less chance of error) but it would keep 99%+ of its effectiveness in fleet combat.

Might also help if a 'max locked targets' script was introduced for sensor boosters/damps. And if the ECM Optimal/Falloff ratio was adjusted so that falcon pilots had to think about range more (ie there was some trade-off between max jam strength and safety).

Give the Scorp 6 turret points and a 5% hybrid damage bonus YARRRR!!

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:37:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong

Uhm, no. 10 racials will easily jam a cruiser with 3xeccm.
10000000 damps cant damp a Frig with 3xSBs below 10km.

Do you know why? BECAUSE ECM IS NOT STACKING NERFED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND.


Time to show your unsurpassing ignorance Very Happy

A maller with 3 ECCM has an overload strength of 112
A Falcon with Amarr racials has a strength of 15.12 for each, with 2 rigs and 3 distortion amplifiers II

So supposing many falcons with similar setups used the right racial jammers on you to a total of 10, your chances of being jammed would be:

(1-((0.865)^10)) = 76.54%

Meaning that the TEN RACIALS applied over you have a 23.46% chance of NOT JAMMING YOU!

Now about sensor boosters, a 10 KM frig is pretty much useless, THAT USING 2 SB, which make it impossible for ALMOST ALL FRIGS. A malediction with 3 sensor boosters has NO MWD and no disruptor, for example... Laughing





1. This has nothing to do with stacking penalty.

2. The 3xSBs is just an example, dont be so anal.

3. 10km frigs are not useless. Did you get that memo about QR and web nerfs? You fail.

Just admit that you were wrong. ECM DOES NOT HAVE A STACKING PENALTY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU ONE MORE TIME?

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:42:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong


2. The 3xSBs is just an example, dont be so anal.




God forbid you use realistic scenarios.....LaughingLaughingRolling Eyes

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:44:00 - [404]
 

Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Murina


God forbid you use realistic scenarios.....LaughingLaughingRolling Eyes


I know solo warfare is not realistic in your world. Rolling Eyes

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:46:00 - [405]
 

Edited by: Murina on 15/01/2009 23:47:20
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Murina


God forbid you use realistic scenarios.....LaughingLaughingRolling Eyes


I know solo warfare is not realistic in your world. Rolling Eyes


Solo pvp is simple math that is decided before the fight eve starts simply by ship + fitting knowledge not skill or in combat adaptability.

JZIM
Caldari
Drakes With Frickin' Lazerbeams
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:50:00 - [406]
 

This forum needs an 'ignore' function

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:51:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Murina


Solo pvp is simple math that is decided before the fight eve starts simply by ship + fitting knowledge not skill or in combat adaptability.


Actually it's not. Pure fitting wise there can be a world of difference in small head on encounters. In fleets it's basically who has more numbers x mass of ships. Yeah you are so gooood at this game murina, such skill. Rolling Eyes

SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:52:00 - [408]
 


Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:52:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: JZIM
This forum needs an 'ignore' function


Forum needs a "One forum account per game account" function + "One character per game account". Yup, that's what we actually need...Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:54:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: JZIM
This forum needs an 'ignore' function


Forum needs a "One forum account per game account" function + "One character per game account". Yup, that's what we actually need...Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


You realize you'd need to post on Lyria then? Laughing

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:54:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina


Solo pvp is simple math that is decided before the fight eve starts simply by ship + fitting knowledge not skill or in combat adaptability.


Actually it's not. Pure fitting wise there can be a world of difference in small head on encounters.


That is why solo pvpers lose ships occasionally, they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard "i can beat it solo" fit...Razz

You do not pvp you just scout for available targets you know you can proly beat.Laughing

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:56:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Murina


That is why solo pvpers lose ships occasionally, they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard "i can beat it solo" fit...Razz

You do not pvp you just scout for available targets you know you can proly beat.Laughing


What do you mean they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard? You want to switch fittings in mid fight? Rolling Eyes

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.15 23:57:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor


You realize you'd need to post on Lyria then? Laughing


Wth are you on about? What does posting have to do with bringing up data from battleclinic?

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:01:00 - [414]
 

Edited by: Murina on 16/01/2009 00:05:57
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Murina


That is why solo pvpers lose ships occasionally, they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard "i can beat it solo" fit...Razz

You do not pvp you just scout for available targets you know you can proly beat.Laughing


What do you mean they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard? You want to switch fittings in mid fight? Rolling Eyes


Exactly my point, a well setup gang can adapt to a situation, while solo fighting is totally about if the ship you are fighting is fitted so your fitting and ship can beat it or not.

A unexpected fitting and the solo player dies cos as i said he already knows what ships and standard fits he can beat.

That is not pvp it is target selection for easy kills.

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:03:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong


What do you mean they cannot adapt if the target ship is not setup with the standard? You want to switch fittings in mid fight? Rolling Eyes


I'd assume it means the larger the group the more variety of setup in the fleet allowing flexibility in offence/defence that you can't get in a solo ship.


*** While personally I'm not much into solo stuff I appreciate those who try.

As a general rule tho I'll bring a kitchen sink and a nuclear weapon to a fist fight if I can Very Happy

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:07:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong

1. This has nothing to do with stacking penalty.



Sure it has, the difference between 10 jammers and 9 jammers in this same scenario is of 4%, while the difference in effectivety between 1 jammer and 2 would be of 87%.

Can you see the benefits decreasing as the number of jammers increase? ECMs have natural stack penalties. Those penalties may not be strong enough for YOUR tastes, but they DO exist.

Quote:

2. The 3xSBs is just an example, dont be so anal.



Your example was about 3 SB in a frigate. It is impossible to fit 3 SB in a frigate and in MOST CRUISERS, without completely gimping them. So what is exactly the point of your example? Do you want to show that if you totally gimp yourself, sensor dampeners can't gimp you much further? Well done!

Quote:

3. 10km frigs are not useless. Did you get that memo about QR and web nerfs? You fail.



10 km lock frigs without ANYTHING BUT SB in their mids actually are COMPLETELY useless.

Quote:

Just admit that you were wrong. ECM DOES NOT HAVE A STACKING PENALTY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU ONE MORE TIME?


Read above for your continuing education.

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:07:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Murina


Exactly my point, a well setup gang can adapt to a situation, while solo fighting is totally about if the ship you are fighting is fitted so you can beat it or not.

A unexpected fitting and the solo player dies cos as i said he already knows what ships and standard fits he can beat.

That is not pvp it is target selection for easy kills.


Sorry but a mixed fleet is less skill. Why? Because it CAN kill any encounter as long as it is big enough. Yeah good skill. We all know blobbing is the best tactic to win, sad thing is that you are proud of it.
A little memo for ya also: Solo pvpers win alot of engagements eventhough they have non optimal fits and non optimal engagement terms. How you call that less skill then blobbing is beyond me. Rolling Eyes

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:08:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel


10 km lock frigs without ANYTHING BUT SB in their mids actually are COMPLETELY useless.




That's not what you said. You said a 10km frig is useless.

Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:10:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Your example was about 3 SB in a frigate. It is impossible to fit 3 SB in a frigate and in MOST CRUISERS, without completely gimping them. So what is exactly the point of your example? Do you want to show that if you totally gimp yourself, sensor dampeners can't gimp you much further? Well done!



The core point still holds if you fit one single sensor booster. Allthough I'm not surpised that you are not capable of understanding this. One single SB will help to certain degree against 1000 damps. It will boost your lock range by noticable amount.

One ECCM will not do you jack good against 1000 ECM. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? IS THIS DIFFICULT?

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.16 00:13:00 - [420]
 

Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


10 km lock frigs without ANYTHING BUT SB in their mids actually are COMPLETELY useless.




That's not what you said. You said a 10km frig is useless.


What I said is a 10 km frig using 3 SBs (I actually made a type and wrote 2). After all I had no motive at all to refer to any frig but the comedy one you proposed.

If you didn't understand that is just one more thing you don't understand, no big deal as your collection is quite large.



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