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Vabjekf
Posted - 2009.01.16 19:05:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

Impressive story but that's texas and that's texas outlaws. Someone breaks into my house here they won't have a gun.



You've only got to be wrong about that one time.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.16 19:10:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 16/01/2009 19:20:08
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Sokratesz

Impressive story but that's texas and that's texas outlaws. Someone breaks into my house here they won't have a gun.



You've only got to be wrong about that one time.



Yeah but this isn't the US. Gun incidents are few and very far between here.

Vabjekf
Posted - 2009.01.16 19:25:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Vabjekf on 16/01/2009 19:26:26
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Sokratesz

Impressive story but that's texas and that's texas outlaws. Someone breaks into my house here they won't have a gun.



You've only got to be wrong about that one time.



Yeah but this isn't the US.


Whats that have to do with it? Do you honestly think that a gun banning laws will remove all guns in the area the law is in effect? Also 'gun incidents' are not very common here either! The US is a large place however, im sure it has more 'incidents' than most countries because its larger than most countries. I live in a small city, its still kind of a 'big deal' when there is a 'shooting'. Someone gets shot people talk about it for a while.

Gun laws will:
1. Prevent accidental gun deaths
2. Make people be more inventive/hassle a little more if they decide they 'want to kill a bunch of people' (school bombings instead of school shootings, though most school shootings have a fairly low casualty rate because the kids doing the shooting are not very good shots, easier to get a bodycount with a strong explosive)

They will not stop a criminal who wants a gun from having a gun.

In effect a gun law will remove the 'medium threat level' (random gun violence) incidents that can be gun related, while leaving all the 'high threat level' things (someone who knows what they are doing) risks intact. However it will simultaneously remove ever other gun other than those high threat level ones.

I think the chance to defend yourself against a dedicated person wanting to kill you is a fair trade for not removing accidents/random incidents of gun violence. Because how ****ty is it to be totally helpless?

Im not a 'gun person', my father grew up in the countryside and thus having some guns for defense from wild animals/protecting livestock etc was sensible. He moved to the city when he met my mom, took his guns with him. When i was born he sold all his handguns, reasoning having them around where a small child (me) could get them was too dangerous. When i was 7 or 8 he taught me about guns and showed me his rifles. He taught me how to clean them first. Then he gave me a bb gun and taught me about gun safety with it, we did a lot of camping and wandering around in the mountains at that time. When i was 10 or so he let me shoot his 'real' gun, and every now and then over the years we would go off and shoot at targets and such with it.

I never felt the desire to 'have' a gun, so i never got one. Untll he died. Then i took his favorite rifle and kept it, and i clean it and maintain it. I have not shot it in over 5 years, nor do i really want to. But im glad i have it.

My mother works for the government, social services. Giving money to people who need it (though since its based on government regulations often times people who dont need it get it and people who do need it just dont meet the requirements, but for the most part im sure it helps somebody). Last year one of her cases got disgruntled and started harassing her. Police said they couldn't do anything unless he made a clear threat. All they could do about him just sitting outside her hours, or randomly ringing the doorbell was to 'file an incident report'.

She was afraid. I figured it was just some guy frustrated for whatever reason not having anything better to do with his time. But i loaded that rifle, and i sat there in the night so she could sleep. I didn't think anything bad would happen, but its better to be safe than sorry. Thats what you do, prepare for the worst, doesn't mean you have to expect it.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.16 19:52:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 16/01/2009 19:58:05

Originally by: Vabjekf
I didn't think anything bad would happen, but its better to be safe than sorry. Thats what you do, prepare for the worst, doesn't mean you have to expect it.


Fully agreed. However firearms here are rare - very rare. I'm 21 and the only times I've seen them was at military shows. Never fired one, never even touched one. I know my uncle has one but he's a detective and keeps it in a locker at the police station.

In 2000, there were 4600 firearm incidents (86 fatalities) in Holland on a population of 16.5 million. In the US there were 708.733 in that same year (29.573 fatalities), and approximately 265 million inhabitants. That's ten times (incidents) and 20 times (deaths) as much, respectively.

Vabjekf
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:01:00 - [215]
 

how many of those incidents where accidents?
How many of those incidents were intentional, but could have just as easily been 'incidents' with some alternative kind of weapon? (a good solid rock, for example).

Like i said, gun laws can cut down on some kinds of gun crime, but they are totally ineffective against other kinds of gun crime. I think that if there is going to be gun crime, its more preferable for there to be 'more gun crime but with a way for people to protect themselves from it', than 'less gun crime but if you are unlucky then you are just dead'.

some times i get the feeling that other places think you can walk around in the US and just see guns everywhere. Other than attached to a police officer ive never seen a gun 'in public' in a population center here.

Now yes outside of towns and cities you may see them. But a farmer needs to protect its cows from the various predators that want to eat cows. And there are a few kinds of wild animal that could maul someone to death in the mountains, so it would be silly not to have a gun walking around there.

In that sense a gun is about like a compass and a map, just something you take with you if you are going on an excursion.

I really don't consider it any different. Its just a device us humans have made to help us do things we are not biologically adept at (no sharp claws or pointy teeth)

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:11:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Vabjekf
how many of those incidents where accidents?
How many of those incidents were intentional, but could have just as easily been 'incidents' with some alternative kind of weapon? (a good solid rock, for example).


Don't know but considering the extremely low private possession of firearms I assume the number of incidents among those is very very low.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:17:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

Impressive story but that's texas and that's texas outlaws. Someone breaks into my house here they won't have a gun.



So now we've reverted from stopping mass killings back to home invasion. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. And you go ahead and keep that wishful thinking that you live in a gunless area. I know England keeps that mentality and yet we still see shooting.

Originally by: Sokratesz
And those examples you linked are mostly crooks looking for a quick snatch. Not a determined attacker with proper equipment.


Glad to see you didn't even pay attention to the video. I doubt you even watched it seeing how the 'crook' wasn't looking to steal anything, his only goal was to take as many as he could to hell with him.

You just go on and enjoy having Daddy and the state watch your back, and I'll watch mine.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:19:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Originally by: Sokratesz

Impressive story but that's texas and that's texas outlaws. Someone breaks into my house here they won't have a gun.



So now we've reverted from stopping mass killings back to home invasion. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. And you go ahead and keep that wishful thinking that you live in a gunless area. I know England keeps that mentality and yet we still see shooting.

Originally by: Sokratesz
And those examples you linked are mostly crooks looking for a quick snatch. Not a determined attacker with proper equipment.


Glad to see you didn't even pay attention to the video. I doubt you even watched it seeing how the 'crook' wasn't looking to steal anything, his only goal was to take as many as he could to hell with him.

You just go on and enjoy having Daddy and the state watch your back, and I'll watch mine.


****ing cut it will you. That comment was not directed towards the video but towards that earlier link of gun incidents.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.01.16 20:24:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz

****ing cut it will you. That comment was not directed towards the video but towards that earlier link of gun incidents.


I'll cut it when you pull your head out of your ass and realize that every gun law, all the law enforcement in the world, and statistics go right out the door when fate has you walk in a door on a burglar who actually is armed in that one in a million chance and none of the things above will save you at the moment.

Everybody says it will never happen to me. Well, sometimes it does buddy boy.

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.01.16 21:36:00 - [220]
 

That the statistics fly out of the window when you are personally beign threatened is two different issues. It is a fact that gun control decreases kill and murder ratios effectively, and only reason for that is another old fact: Most people are too dumb not to be shepherded in this, and many other things.

Even a child should understand that more legal guns means also more burglars and other "crooks" with guns. Especially a child that owns a gun.

But then again, statistics dont matter a **** to me neither, and never do i ask what am i allowed to do or possess, and what not. Babylon is a game and true freedom is the chips.

Kryptiq
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.01.17 00:22:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:26:43
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:23:55
My rifle/pistol

Seems crazy how easy it is for some people to obtain a carry license. In New York it is pretty hard to get one, and nearly impossible to get one for New York City unless you work for the government.YARRRR!!

Luckily I haven't had issues getting the carry license or permission to purchase full auto weapons.Razz

EDIT: As for the argument here all I will say that to avoid being put away for a very very long time be reasonable if someone breaks into your home and take out their kneecaps or the hand the intruder is holding a weapon in. I sincerely hope none of you ever have to shoot another human being, criminal or not you will always remember that person.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.17 00:29:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Kryptiq
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:26:43
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:23:55
My rifle/pistol

Seems crazy how easy it is for some people to obtain a carry license. In New York it is pretty hard to get one, and nearly impossible to get one for New York City unless you work for the government.YARRRR!!

Luckily I haven't had issues getting the carry license or permission to purchase full auto weapons.Razz

EDIT: As for the argument here all I will say that to avoid being put away for a very very long time be reasonable if someone breaks into your home and take out their kneecaps or the hand the intruder is holding a weapon in. I sincerely hope none of you ever have to shoot another human being, criminal or not you will always remember that person.


You have a p90??

Kryptiq
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.01.17 00:35:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Kryptiq
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:26:43
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:23:55
My rifle/pistol

Seems crazy how easy it is for some people to obtain a carry license. In New York it is pretty hard to get one, and nearly impossible to get one for New York City unless you work for the government.YARRRR!!

Luckily I haven't had issues getting the carry license or permission to purchase full auto weapons.Razz

EDIT: As for the argument here all I will say that to avoid being put away for a very very long time be reasonable if someone breaks into your home and take out their kneecaps or the hand the intruder is holding a weapon in. I sincerely hope none of you ever have to shoot another human being, criminal or not you will always remember that person.


You have a p90??


No the picture is of my G36C and M9. I have other weapons but these are the 2 I like most.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.17 00:43:00 - [224]
 

Yes but if I'm not mistaking thats a p90 mag in the left corner.

Sobach
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2009.01.17 00:58:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Kryptiq
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:26:43
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:23:55
My rifle/pistol

EDIT: As for the argument here all I will say that to avoid being put away for a very very long time be reasonable if someone breaks into your home and take out their kneecaps or the hand the intruder is holding a weapon in. I sincerely hope none of you ever have to shoot another human being, criminal or not you will always remember that person.


That really depends on the law of the state you're in, some are more reasonable than others. However, if your opponent is armed, for Christ's sake please don't be aiming for aforementioned kneecap or their hand. Not only will you more than likely miss, even if you do hit neither will prevent them from firing back. People have been shot and killed by those already hit in far worst places than their hands or knees.

I don't know if there are any states out there that have laws that prohibits one from defending his own life inside his home from armed intruders. But if there are, please let me know which one, so I can be sure to never live there :p

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.01.17 01:00:00 - [226]
 

Sobach... nowhere in the country does it say you have to retreat in your own home

Kravick Drasari
Posted - 2009.01.17 01:42:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sobach... nowhere in the country does it say you have to retreat in your own home


This, unfortunately, isn't true. It widely varies by state but there are still states that say if you can run from the situation you have too. They say if you have a back door you have to use it. Only if you are backed into a corner are you allowed to defend yourself. There are even states that say you can't even do that and have to wait for the police to come. Even if hes beating down your bathroom door with an axe. These will be states that don't have castle doctrine law.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.01.17 01:49:00 - [228]
 

Which states are these? I will never go to one

Kravick Drasari
Posted - 2009.01.17 01:53:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Which states are these? I will never go to one


Any that doesn't have castle doctrine law enacted. I'm not going to do the work for you. Just Google search it.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:04:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Which states are these? I will never go to one


What state was Obama senator of? Illinois? LaughingLaughingLaughing

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:06:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Kryptiq
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:26:43
Edited by: Kryptiq on 17/01/2009 00:23:55
My rifle/pistol

Seems crazy how easy it is for some people to obtain a carry license. In New York it is pretty hard to get one, and nearly impossible to get one for New York City unless you work for the government.YARRRR!!

Luckily I haven't had issues getting the carry license or permission to purchase full auto weapons.Razz

EDIT: As for the argument here all I will say that to avoid being put away for a very very long time be reasonable if someone breaks into your home and take out their kneecaps or the hand the intruder is holding a weapon in. I sincerely hope none of you ever have to shoot another human being, criminal or not you will always remember that person.


What brand suppressor is that?

doctorstupid2
The Accursed
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:13:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Which states are these? I will never go to one


What state was Obama senator of? Illinois? LaughingLaughingLaughing
Also note that in Illinois there is no right to carry.

Fun fact, Illinois has a violent crime rate in the top 10 by state, and DC (which has the most prohibitive anti-gun legislation in the US) has the highest. THings that make you go "hmmm"

Gojyu
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:20:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Gojyu on 17/01/2009 02:25:39
Originally by: Vabjekf
it would have to be a pretty newb 'gang' to be unable to obtain firearms just because they are illegal.

Actually, depends where you live. Over in Australia it's pretty close to impossible to obtain a firearm illegally, there just aren't that many out there. I can, in theory, obtain pretty much anything illegal you want (byproduct of going to university), from drugs to controlled chemicals. Couldn't get my hands on a gun if I tried. I might, maybe, possibly be able to find a shotgun or rifle, but pistols would be right out. As far as guns go, I could walk down the darkest alley in Sydney and I wouldn't have a gun pulled on me. Knives, bats and an assortment of other weapons sure, but unless they're the most hardcore of criminals, the organised crime sort, they're not going to be just casually carrying a firearm around

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:42:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Gojyu
Edited by: Gojyu on 17/01/2009 02:25:39
Originally by: Vabjekf
it would have to be a pretty newb 'gang' to be unable to obtain firearms just because they are illegal.

Actually, depends where you live. Over in Australia it's pretty close to impossible to obtain a firearm illegally, there just aren't that many out there. I can, in theory, obtain pretty much anything illegal you want (byproduct of going to university), from drugs to controlled chemicals. Couldn't get my hands on a gun if I tried. I might, maybe, possibly be able to find a shotgun or rifle, but pistols would be right out. As far as guns go, I could walk down the darkest alley in Sydney and I wouldn't have a gun pulled on me. Knives, bats and an assortment of other weapons sure, but unless they're the most hardcore of criminals, the organised crime sort, they're not going to be just casually carrying a firearm around


"Where there's a will there's a weapon" ~Nicholas Cage "Lord of War"

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:45:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Gojyu
Edited by: Gojyu on 17/01/2009 02:25:39
Originally by: Vabjekf
it would have to be a pretty newb 'gang' to be unable to obtain firearms just because they are illegal.

Actually, depends where you live. Over in Australia it's pretty close to impossible to obtain a firearm illegally, there just aren't that many out there. I can, in theory, obtain pretty much anything illegal you want (byproduct of going to university), from drugs to controlled chemicals. Couldn't get my hands on a gun if I tried. I might, maybe, possibly be able to find a shotgun or rifle, but pistols would be right out. As far as guns go, I could walk down the darkest alley in Sydney and I wouldn't have a gun pulled on me. Knives, bats and an assortment of other weapons sure, but unless they're the most hardcore of criminals, the organised crime sort, they're not going to be just casually carrying a firearm around


That's weird. My (internet) friends from Australia brag about their hand guns (black market, illegally obtained) all the time, and provide pictures of them. They're very spiffy, band new and in outstanding condition. Why do you think that handguns are so hard to obtain? Just because you can't get one?

Kravick Drasari
Posted - 2009.01.17 02:48:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Gojyu
Edited by: Gojyu on 17/01/2009 02:25:39
Originally by: Vabjekf
it would have to be a pretty newb 'gang' to be unable to obtain firearms just because they are illegal.

Actually, depends where you live. Over in Australia it's pretty close to impossible to obtain a firearm illegally, there just aren't that many out there. I can, in theory, obtain pretty much anything illegal you want (byproduct of going to university), from drugs to controlled chemicals. Couldn't get my hands on a gun if I tried. I might, maybe, possibly be able to find a shotgun or rifle, but pistols would be right out. As far as guns go, I could walk down the darkest alley in Sydney and I wouldn't have a gun pulled on me. Knives, bats and an assortment of other weapons sure, but unless they're the most hardcore of criminals, the organised crime sort, they're not going to be just casually carrying a firearm around


Which proves that if someone wants to mug, ****, murder you they're going to do it regardless of the availability of a firearm. Guns are not bad. People are.

Crackpipe2000
Posted - 2009.01.17 03:50:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Originally by: Gojyu

Originally by: Vabjekf





Which proves that if someone wants to mug, ****, murder you they're going to do it regardless of the availability of a firearm. Guns are not bad. People are.


nice conclusion, einstein. what would happen if you add them?

Kravick Drasari
Posted - 2009.01.17 04:23:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 17/01/2009 04:37:28
Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 17/01/2009 04:36:34
Edited by: Kravick Drasari on 17/01/2009 04:25:52
Originally by: Crackpipe2000
Originally by: Kravick Drasari
Originally by: Gojyu

Originally by: Vabjekf





Which proves that if someone wants to mug, ****, murder you they're going to do it regardless of the availability of a firearm. Guns are not bad. People are.


nice conclusion, einstein. what would happen if you add them?


This.

The New American magazine (Google it) reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes. The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982. And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and ****ss have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998. With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you? The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence. The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish. There have been two occasions in my own family when the presence of a handgun averted potential disaster. In both instances the gun was never aimed at a person and no shot was fired.

Most recent statistics. http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kennesaw&state=GA

Growth statistics. The city has actually seen an usual growth since the law was passed. http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

"Our population has increased just like everyone's in Georgia in the past 20 years," he said. "The law really hasn't done any harm to the city's growth."

"The city's population in 1998 was recorded at 14,493 - a sharp increase over the 8,936 residents recorded in the 1990 census."

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2009.01.17 05:47:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Spenz on 17/01/2009 05:49:59
Originally by: Uncle Smokey
stuff


Actually the reverse is true. According to studies done by Harvard University, Brown University, various government organizations (including the FBI), and from actual interviews with real criminals in high-security prisons, more guns = less crime, while Gun control is adored and lauded by the criminals (at least according to the ones they interviews in Max security prison).

There is one thing that just doesn't seem to click with people. Criminals don't obey the law. They do not obey the laws for robbery, ****, murder, arson, and assault. Why would they obey gun laws? Criminals fear armed citizens (proven fact), because they do not know who is carrying and who isn't. However, gun control ensures them that their targets are not armed with any sort of effective weapon.

The only reason children think less guns = less crimes is because their parents tell them, and their parents are told by the politicians and special interest groups that less guns = less crime. Politicians love playing games with your lives, because fear = votes, unfortunately the one thing they don't tell you is that all these politicians that supposedly care for your lives also have armed bodyguards to protect them.

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning. It smells like.....tyranny.

I own:

M44 Mosin Nagant
M9130 Mosin Nagant
Wasr-10/63 rifle (NOT a Wasr-10. 10/63's are essentially identical to romanian AKM's)

Yeah not much of a collection but I am planning on expanding that with an XD45 and maybe a shotgun.

Spaztick
Terminal Impact
Kairakau
Posted - 2009.01.17 06:24:00 - [240]
 

DC has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, but has the highest death toll from them. If you'll notice, Texas has just under the average of firearm-related deaths, which is 3 times lower than DCs. Now of course since DC is our captial I'm expecting deaths to be higher (who doesn't want to strangle everyone with a law degree?), but 3 times the amount is still crazy, and I don't think the extra 200% is going to be all related to politics.


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