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blankseplocked [Proposal] How about a Viable list of Blackops Improvements?
 
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Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.05 09:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 05/01/2009 13:41:03
Caveats:
1. Blackops were released pre-nerfed, true. This was intended to prevent them from completely overshadowing their t1 hulls. In terms of game balance, cost is a minor concern and must be ignored. A statistically equivalent/superior T2 Geddon, with a jump drive, simply obsoletes a t1 Geddon, thus the statistics and fittings of the BlackOps battleships were scaled back below their t1 parent hulls.
2. The hulls chosen for blackops ships vs marauders seems an arbitrary decision which consider which ships would be better at pvp vs pve, so I've corrected them. Dominix > Mega for missions, Mega > Domi for blackops, so make the Domi the Marauder and megathron the Blackops, etc
3. Blackops lack the ability to fit a Covert Ops cloaking device. This was an intentional design decision, which follows the well established rules concerning the raw dps available on COCD usable ships. This is completely unrelated to the aforementioned pre-nerfing of the ships stats.
4. A Covert Ops cloak is quite literally useless on a battleship sized hull, especially on a battleship hull which has it's own jump drive and ability to lock on to Covert Cyno Fields. While this is the most requested "improvement" from the masses (all of which admit they do not actually fly the ships in pvp, due to the lack of a cloak, thus they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about). It's also the most ridiculous request for an "improvement" which players with zero experience piloting Blackops ships would readily trade class destroying nerfs in order to "balance" the addition of said Covert Ops Cloak. This suggestion is laughable and should never even be entertained.

All Blackops:
+40% base scan resolution to counteract fitting a cloak.
+60 CPU (cost to fit a T2 cloak)
+50% native sensor strength (Opposite of Marauders)
T2 resists (racial flavor as appropriate on t2 ships)
Jump Range increased to 3ly base (6.75ly with JDC 5, 6ly with JDC 4)
500-2000m3 Fuel Bay added (whatever developers feel is balanced)
Covert Cynos changed to be usable in Cynojammed Systems

All cpu/pg listed before skills, includes +60 CPU from above

Sin:
Hull > Megathron. Developer > Duvolle. 7H:5M:7L, 5 Turrets, 610 cpu, 13,500 grid
Gallente BS: 5% Large Turret dmg/lvl, 7.5% Large Turret Tracking/lvl.
5% Agility per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR, worthless now) becomes a third Turret bonus, perhaps optimal, 2nd damage, or falloff.

Panther:
Hull > Tempest. Developer > Boundless Creation 7H:5M:7L, 5 turrets, 660 cpu, 13,500 grid

5% speed per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR for an entirely different reason, worthless now) removed. The Panther is thukker (like the vagabond), this doesn't work for battleships. The Panther needs to become Boundless Creation and given a 3rd projectile bonus (such as falloff).

Redeemer:
Hull > Geddon. Develop > Viziam. 8H:4M:7L, 6 Turrets, 565 cpu, 17,000 grid (The only change is +60 CPU)
With the above changes that all blackops need, the redeemer is fine.

Widow: Most people do not realize this, but the widow is already: Hull > Raven. Developer > Kaalakiota. 7H:8M:4L, 5 Missiles, 820 CPU, 8800 grid (The only change is +60 CPU)
Both Caldari BS bonuses come from the Raven, However the fitting & BO bonus comes from the Scorp. Unfortunately, players seem enthralled by the ECM bonus (no idea why), so you kinda have to leave it exactly as is (other than +60 CPU).

Currently:
The Redeemer (geddon) and Panther (phoon) are -1 Low, +1 Mid. The Sin (dominix) is -1 Low, +1 Mid, +1 High. The Widow (raven) is -1 Low, +2 Mid, -1 High. If you compare the Widow to the Scorpion, the Widow is simply +1 High/Missile Hardpoint.

Changes:
Redeemer (Geddon) -1 Low, +1 Mid > Marauder = Apoc (No Change)
Panther (Tempest) -1 High, +1 Low > Marauder = Typhoon (with Torp bonuses)
Sin (Megathron) -1 High, +1 Mid > Marauder = Dominix
Widow (Raven) -1 Low, -1 High, +2 Mids > Marauder = Raven (No Change. 500m-800m T2 Scorpion? Useless)

Problematic one
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2009.01.05 10:02:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Rajere



This is probably the most intelligent thing you've ever said.

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.01.05 12:50:00 - [3]
 

Switching around the hulls seems like a major task, but I can't disagree with the reasoning behind the move. As for the overall improvements to the class, I agree 100%. Counter the penalties of the cloak, give better resists, slightly better jump range and bypass cyno jamming and you've balanced the class.

Ignition SemperFi
No Falcons Allowed
Posted - 2009.01.05 13:25:00 - [4]
 

take away 1 lowslot on the widow? are you serious...?

i like the ideas but if anything give the widow 1 more lowslot

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.05 13:31:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
take away 1 lowslot on the widow? are you serious...?

i like the ideas but if anything give the widow 1 more lowslot


He doesn't like ECM.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.05 14:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
take away 1 lowslot on the widow? are you serious...?

i like the ideas but if anything give the widow 1 more lowslot

I edited the OP to clarify that my proposal changes nothing about the Widow other than giving it +60 CPU. I was merely saying the Widow is a Raven with -1 Low Slot, +2 Mids, -1 Highslot. The slot layout on the Widow follows the same pattern as the other blackops (-Lows, +Mids).

With my proposal, the BlackOps balance out as follows (note: I'm using the redeemer as the baseline ship for balancing purposes):

Redeemer = 4 Mids, 7 Lows, 8 Highs, 6 turrets (1 less than Geddon)
Widow = 8 Mids, 4 Lows, 7 Highs, 5 Missiles (1 less than Raven)
Panther = 5 Mids, 7 Lows, 7 Highs, 5 Turrets (1 less than Tempest)
Sin = 5 Mids, 7 lows, 7 Highs, 5 Turrets (2 less than Megathron)*

This balances out their slot layouts. Technically I should give the Sin 6 Turrets and 8 high slots to match the Megathron, however, this would mean the Sin loses either a low or a mid slot, neither of which it can really afford to give up. I could give it the same layout as the Redeemer, but then it would be overpowered compared to the Redeemer if it were given 2 damage bonuses, which I feel both the Sin and Panther need. Not fitting a 6th gun free's up alot of grid for use in lows or their extra utility midslot.

My feeling is with 5 utility Mids, 3 turret bonuses and 5 Turrets, the Panther and Sin should balance out with the Redeemer, who also has 3 turret bonuses but of course being amarr one of his bonuses is -50% cap use on lasers, bleh.

Basically the comparison is:

Panther: 5x 800mm II's with 5% ROF Bonus, 5% damage bonus, and 5% falloff Bonus
Sin: 5x Neutron Blaster Cannon II's with 5% Damage bonus, 7.5% Tracking bonus, and either another 5% damage bonus. (maybe 10% Falloff Bonus/10% Optimal Bonus if that's too much damage)
Redeemer: 6x Megapulse II's with -10% Capacitor Bonus, 5% ROF Bonus, 7.5% Tracking Bonus
Widow: 5x Siege Launcher II's with 5% ROF Bonus, 10% Missile Velocity, 20% ECM Strength.

The difference in Torps vs Guns has the Widow matching/slightly outpacing the Redeemer but only if using a Target Painter, otherwise they are pretty close. The Panther/Sin get 1 less turret but both get double damage bonuses vs the redeemer so they should balance out as well. This way *All* of the blackops can actually have a sane slot layout in order to fit tank/damage mods/etc.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.01.05 19:42:00 - [7]
 

Quote:
1. Blackops were released pre-nerfed, true. This was intended to prevent them from completely overshadowing their t1 hulls. In terms of game balance, cost is a minor concern and must be ignored. A statistically equivalent/superior T2 Geddon, with a jump drive, simply obsoletes a t1 Geddon, thus the statistics and fittings of the BlackOps battleships were scaled back below their t1 parent hulls.

Um no... how many people can fly a geddon? compared to the black op version?? months of training difference. Secondly... cost is a huge concern. Tech 2 isnt insurable. While tech 1 is,

Quote:
2. The hulls chosen for blackops ships vs marauders seems an arbitrary decision which consider which ships would be better at pvp vs pve, so I've corrected them. Dominix > Mega for missions, Mega > Domi for blackops, so make the Domi the Marauder and megathron the Blackops, etc

Which would make sense... but it breaks it. Domi as marauder would be epic. This obviously wont change now.

Quote:
3. Blackops lack the ability to fit a Covert Ops cloaking device. This was an intentional design decision, which follows the well established rules concerning the raw dps available on COCD usable ships. This is completely unrelated to the aforementioned pre-nerfing of the ships stats.

Same reason stealth bombers dont have cov-op. Would be overpowered.

Quote:
While this is the most requested "improvement" from the masses (all of which admit they do not actually fly the ships in pvp, due to the lack of a cloak, thus they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about).

I dont have a clue what ur talking about tbh. Cov-op cloak wouldnt even be that much of an improvement. It would be overpowered... but also a doubleedged sword.

Quote:
All Blackops: +40% base scan resolution to counteract fitting a cloak.

Pretty fair... but you really dont have to fit one.

Quote:
+60 CPU (cost to fit a T2 cloak)

Honestly not an issue for me. All my fits have no issue with fitting.

Quote:
+50% native sensor strength (Opposite of Marauders)
T2 resists (racial flavor as appropriate on t2 ships)
Jump Range increased to 3ly base (6.75ly with JDC 5, 6ly with JDC 4

nice but not necessary; as it isnt the problem with black ops.

Quote:
500-2000m3 Fuel Bay added (whatever developers feel is balanced) Covert Cynos changed to be usable in Cynojammed Systems

already going to happen.


In conclusion... tbh i think the redeemer-panther mostly needs the logistical boost; perhaps an optimal/falloff bonus on their weapons but they are good.

Widow is kind of crappy but i guess it does what it does.

Sin is the real sad one who really needs a massive boost. I cant get the thing to actually work UNTIL you use Tuvan's modified lars + t2 rigs. Which is ridiculous.

In my opinion they need to fix targeting range such that it is > plain domi... OR build into the ship one CCC. That alone will mitigate the fix.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute

Posted - 2009.01.05 23:14:00 - [8]
 

The hull changes are bizarre. The slot layout and bonuses can be changed, but all of the Black ops need to use the tier 1 BS hull. That is how all tech 2 ship lines work and there is no need to change it now.

Scan res bonus, fuel bay and usable in cynojammed systems are desperately needed.
Jump range bonus would be nice but I don't think we'll get it.
T2 resist, sensor strength and +cpu would be nice but I could live without them.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.07 02:54:00 - [9]
 

Except for the Sin, the parent hull "changes" part can be ignored. I'm not really concerned about the ship model themselves they could be left the same (it just looks weird when they're missing turret points). When it comes to offensive ship design, the Widow is already A Kaalakiota developed Raven Hull. The Panther is already a Boundless Creation developed Tempest Hull. And of course the Redeemer is already a Viziam developed Armageddon. This is apparent from the bonuses given from the racial battleship skill as well as the number of weapon hard points. Each of them, (except for the Sin) has 1 less weapon hardpoint than it's true parent hull and dual weapon bonuses.

However when it came to fittings, the developers suddenly remembered that they had to be based on the Tier 1 battleship and that's when things got mucked up. They applied the same -1 Low, +1 Mid formula to each tier 1 battleship, additionally they removed an extra highslot from the widow in favor of another mid. The Sin was given an extra high slot to give it the same number of slots as the rest, but for some reason it cost them a turret hardpoint (Sin should be 5 turrets based on the Domi's 6). This doesn't matter that much since it's fittings come from the Dominix hull so it lacks the grid to fit a 5th turret anyway.

The BlackOps Skill bonuses are just weird. The widow was given an ECM bonus as a throwback to it allegedly being based on the scorpion, the Sin and Panther got agility/speed bonuses, and the Redeemer lucked out since it atleast got a 3rd turret bonus (although tracking is completely out of left field, typically the 3rd bonus for Viziam is 5% damage or 10% optimal per level, but understandably that would have been too powerful)

The changes I suggested were to correct the ships since half of their design is based on the hull I suggested anyway, they just need a more reasonable slot layout and fittings to actually take advantage of it. So, with the Sin being the exception, you can just move the slots around, change the first blackops bonus (agility/speed, would love to change the ecm bonus but people would scream nerf) and boost their fittings and still call them t2 phoons or t2 scorps all you like (though everyone should know that they actually aren't).

However, even if you made those changes, The Sin will still lag behind the rest. The problem with the Sin is that drones do not work for the style of play that Blackops are designed for. Drones take time to deploy, to be given orders, not to mention the time it takes to actually travel into range and begin attacking. Most of this is just ui lag but it results in 5-10 seconds before the drones respond. The only instant damage available from drones comes from Sentries which A: still lag due to the previous sentence and B: do not travel, which severely limits the sin's options (or results in leaving drones behind).

The Dominix is a drone ship and it's 3rd bonus would most likely be another drone bonus in line with the creodron line of ships, which again doesn't actually help. If needs to be a megathron instead.



GoodNDead
Caldari
Hardcore Industries
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2009.01.07 03:21:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: GoodNDead on 07/01/2009 03:21:24
the black op is a t2 support ship.. not a tier 2 pvp battleship! its subpar pvp fitting and skills should reflect this..

why must you all try and make every new ship class into the new wtfpwnmobile.

that's what tier three ships are for :D

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.07 05:08:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: GoodNDead
Edited by: GoodNDead on 07/01/2009 03:21:24
the black op is a t2 support ship.. not a tier 2 pvp battleship! its subpar pvp fitting and skills should reflect this..

why must you all try and make every new ship class into the new wtfpwnmobile.

that's what tier three ships are for :D

you're about 180 degrees off. If you'd like to learn just how ridiculous your post was take it to ships and modules please, and keep it out of assembly hall.

Aphex188
Minmatar
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.01.07 20:35:00 - [12]
 

c

I SoStoned
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.07 21:01:00 - [13]
 

While I agree that BO need a major looking at (particularly the ability to use Cov-Cynos in jammed systems), I do not agree that the hulls should be changed to Tier 2.

Black Ops were intended to use the smaller, generally more nimble and sneaky, hulls. They were never intended to be the brawny, slugish damage dealers that Marauders are.

Agreed, give them the ability to fit T2 Improved cloaks and give them a further velocity bonus while under cloak (to balance the kick-in-the-gonads stealth nerf to BS speeds). Balance the sensor hit while using such cloaks, but do not under any circumstance allow them to use Cov Ops cloaks unless their damage output was reduced to what Cov Ops frigs can do now (which is effectively nil).

Further, they should allow Covert Cynos be usable in jammed system with only one change: It's no longer covert. Activating it in a cyno jammed system makes it show up like a regular cyno.

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.01.08 01:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Neu Bastian on 08/01/2009 02:28:34
...deletezor plz

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.01.08 10:01:00 - [15]
 

well I think I saw this very same post somewhere else ... either Game development or Features and ideas ...

anyway I fall into the category that does not fly Blackops (but I am training for the Sin to accomplish one of my own goals).

I do agree about the Covert Ops cloak ... it's not needed. I also do agree with the fuel bay and CPU/sensor changes.

However if they realy switch the BO Domi hull and the marauder Mega hull, I'll personaly pod you because I wasted months of training for the wrong ship class :-)

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.10 19:47:00 - [16]
 

I copy pasta'd the gist of this from another thread I'd made on those forums, yeah.

I realize what a ship needs for it to be balanced with the rest of its class, doesn't necessarily mean that there's any chance of that actually happening.

The problem with leaving it a domi, other than drones not working well at all with how blackops are used, is that it still lacks the grid to fit a 5th turret (that it definitely needs), so giving it a 5th turret slot that was denied to it because it's "a drone boat" doesn't actually help all that much. And if you were to give it a 5th turret and made the blackops skill bonus another turret bonus (another 5% damage, or 10% Optimal, maybe even 5% ROF), it would still need to have the 7:5:7 layout I proposed for the megathron version of the gallente blackops. (in pvp that is, for pve, the sin makes a great ninja exploration site runner in non-friendly 0.0 space) Otherwise, all those changes are a waste since you lack the slots to fit proper damage mods.

And if you give it double turret bonuses *and* the drone bonus now, give it the 5th turret hard point along with the grid and slot layout to utilize it, while leaving the domi's Drone Bay on it (remove the drone bay and drone bonus, and grats it's the megathron version I asked for), then it becomes a very good ship in most encounters (such as when the drones aren't that viable), yet insanely overpowered in other situations that aren't really blackops related (see the Panther pre speed balancing).

If there's one things players are guranteed to do, it is find those situations where it's overpowered and specialize the ship specific for those circumstances to take advantage of it (again, Panther). This would give the sin and only the sin a new perspective and people would start flying them for those specific situations, leading to a nerf, resulting in pilots using the ship for its designed role, who finally equal their peers, to once again fall behind.

The problem with making the 3rd bonus into another drone bonus as it's design indicates it should have, is that in all likelihood it would get a useless bonus to control or drone bay that does not help it whatsoever. Even if they gave it something crazy like +20% per level to drone mwd velocity/drone optimal to allow it to compensate for the sluggishness of Heavy Drones (would help sentries as well, leading to Bouncer II snipe fits, etc), the real problem is mostly due to the crappiness of the drone AI and lag/response times dealing with the drone UI. The sin already has decent DPS in EFT, the problem is well over half of that DPS is difficult to apply in combat and even when you do, it takes too long to start kicking in.

So to "balance" the drone dps they need to be buffed enough to compensate for the difficulties with utilizing that dps. It won't fix them, but it's the best the devs can do to mask the problems with them. Giving the Sin a 2nd drone bonus, it should be another bonus to 10% dmg/hp per blackops skill level.

at All level 5 skills without rigs/whatever, this would result in:
394 Bouncer IIs becomes 591
386 Berserker IIs becomes 579
475 Ogre IIs becomes 713
450 Garde IIs becomes 675

5th Turret hardpoint needs to also be added. Unless it also gets a grid boost, this really only allows a 5th Electron Blaster Cannon (with a tight fit). Nothing short of comedy tank/mids leaves it enough grid to fit 5 Ions or larger. For those with Rail fits, Electrons = Dual 250s grid wise, slightly higher CPU costs but they should still fit. 350s are even harder to fit than Ions though so no luck there. That would give it at max skills ~435 turret dps (1 dmg mod) plus the dps from the improved drones above, 1147 EFT DPS with Ogre IIs, in reality less, but good DPS when drones can be used, and subpar but respectable DPS when they can't.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2009.01.13 10:28:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Rajere
I copy pasta'd the gist of this from another thread I'd made on those forums, yeah.
.....




just to put things into perspective ... I want to train for all the sub capital drone ships ingame ... so that's why the Sin is one of my targets ...

anyway my take on the Sin was as the "logistic" multirole BO of the bunch:

1. with drone assist/guard it can assign damage/repairs WITHOUT needing to lock the target. this makes it the fastest BO in this regard.

2. not relying on high slots for damage, it can work as the neut/RR BO

it has the drawback that it needs to wait for drones before it is able to GTFO if needed. I think a larger drone bay (your useless bonus idea) would help here. you'd still be losing assets but you could have many many spare drones in bay.

in my view, Widow is the most useless BO (ECM on a BS with cloak sig res penalty :-)), the amarr and minmatar are the standard gank type ships (best suited for hit and run type) and the Sin is the versatile multirole one (as detailed above). switching the Domi to the Megathron hull would make the Sin a standard gank ship :-) So it's a bit of loss in my view.

Again I am not able to fly a BO, let alone use it for the intended purpose, so take my view as pure theory.

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.01.25 22:49:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Rajere on 25/01/2009 22:50:09
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Rajere
I copy pasta'd the gist of this from another thread I'd made on those forums, yeah.
.....




just to put things into perspective ... I want to train for all the sub capital drone ships ingame ... so that's why the Sin is one of my targets ...

anyway my take on the Sin was as the "logistic" multirole BO of the bunch:

1. with drone assist/guard it can assign damage/repairs WITHOUT needing to lock the target. this makes it the fastest BO in this regard.

2. not relying on high slots for damage, it can work as the neut/RR BO

it has the drawback that it needs to wait for drones before it is able to GTFO if needed. I think a larger drone bay (your useless bonus idea) would help here. you'd still be losing assets but you could have many many spare drones in bay.

in my view, Widow is the most useless BO (ECM on a BS with cloak sig res penalty :-)), the amarr and minmatar are the standard gank type ships (best suited for hit and run type) and the Sin is the versatile multirole one (as detailed above). switching the Domi to the Megathron hull would make the Sin a standard gank ship :-) So it's a bit of loss in my view.

Again I am not able to fly a BO, let alone use it for the intended purpose, so take my view as pure theory.

You cannot assign/assist Logistic or ECM drones, thus you will need both a lock (sin has atrocious scan res) and pull in your DPS drones in order to use repping drones. And heaven help you if you dropped sentries and moved an inch, you would either have to abandon them or fly around manually getting within 1,500 scoop range, which by then your buddy will be dead.

The truth is they're all gank ships. The widow is only useless if you make it useless. Prior to QR, the widow had the highest gank while simultaneously having the highest tank (1150 DPS, 110k EHP), and it was clearly the best blackops followed by the redeemer then sin/panther. The widow lost alot with the missile formula change, it very much relies on multiple target painters (ie gang mates fitting them) to even approach it's EFT DPS numbers, and the redeemer easily outclasses it. Obviously none of those fits include ECM ofc.


 

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