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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.01.06 10:37:00 - [61]

Originally by: Venkul Mul

To repeat it, are you offering yourself for guard duty 8 hours a day?

That, for me, is the only point that matter. I don't play to be the one doing guard duty when I play, and I don't like the thought to force someone to do the same.

I'm from a small corp, that doesn't try to exert control over anything. We do what we like for fun and PvP as a corp for lulz. I'm not going to be guarding anything no matter what the changes will be, but I would like some guarding to be necessary, if someone wants to achieve perfect and immediate intelligence. I don't want to make it a painful chore though. Some new system needs to be added to the game, if any changes to local are made.

I'm can live with the current system though, since it is the same for everyone. Sometimes we lose targets because of it, sometimes it saves my life. If there will be any changes, I'll adapt. My only concern is, that what ever the new system will be, the rules will be the same for all characters. What the exact details of the system will be, I don't really care that much.

Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.06 10:40:00 - [62]

Yes yes remove'll be tough at first...but they will get used to it..

Posted - 2009.01.06 11:37:00 - [63]

Originally by: Cailais
I'd like top see a compromise solution. One which introduces some doubt into who is actually in a system at any given time.

My personal suggestion would be:

Remove a player from Local channel when he enters a belt (working on the basis that the asteroids belts provide cover from view - lurking in the 'long grass' etc).

The asteroid belts become something of a lesser known quantity - patches of shadow if you will.

Now under this proposal cloaked vessels might be a touch too powerful, and to counter this Id propose that when a player cloaks, he looses Local channel - and must be reliant on intel from other players / alts etc.

Finally Id suggest that Sov holding (or Viceroys in Low Sec) could be based on capturing belt 'beacons': if a belt is controled that belt is 'illuminated' and no longer a blind spot for local channel.


I like some of these ideas, and would like to second them. I like the idea of asteroids interfering with the scanners, giving 'long grass' to hide in, and I do think cloakers should become invisible t local, although I think the idea of the cloaker themselves losing access to local maybe a little difficult to implement, but it's a idea with promise, as itallows good alance.

Goodlookin Gus
Viking Research and Production
Posted - 2009.01.06 12:26:00 - [64]

just my little idea.

Remove local from 0.0 space that isent npc space. make more use of "local alliance/friend chat" that is control by the holding alliance. make some equipment tool ingame that can be used/placed into system you hold sourv over to detect ships relayed into that made channel for the system. and cloaked ship shouldent be detected for example.

for npc 0.0 make local delayed. you enter after xx amount of seconds you show up in local, and stay until you log out of leave(instant show if you log on in the system)

for low sec and empire. more or less same as now.

Yes this is an rough idea. but can it be developed into something useable?

The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.01.06 14:43:00 - [65]

Originally by: Cailais
My personal suggestion would be:

Remove a player from Local channel when he enters a belt (working on the basis that the asteroids belts provide cover from view - lurking in the 'long grass' etc).

The asteroid belts become something of a lesser known quantity - patches of shadow if you will.

Nice idea, but incomplete. To make it balanced the ship in the asteroid belt also loses the ability to see who's in Local. After all, the "long grass" obscures both ways.

Posted - 2009.01.06 15:14:00 - [66]

I'm not a troll, thanks person with iq of 5 (must have had mummy type it for you).

My point is that local is sadly central to much of the game and yes, I agree, its a frightening that it is this way and there should be a better tool.

No one camps gates 23/7, even if they tried, they warp off when something happens at another gate allowing plenty of time for fleets to come through and warp to a safe and cloak up again. Got all my gate camping stripes thanks but no thanks.

To bring you all up to speed,

- yes, I've hunted using local to know when to bother scanning. Good thing too as 50 jumps scanning every belt = hours of time wasted for nothing.
- yes, I've avoided being hunted using local
- yes, I've attacked many systems owned by others using local to know when i can move about freely and keep fc's appraised of enemy movements while we roll their carebear POSs
- yes, I've helped defend systems the alliance I was in owned from attack using local to pass on very accurate information of numbers

50% of that life, local being gone is a boon. 50% of it however, would just make playing the game ridiculous.

I'm in empire for now, so none of this matters to me at the moment, but can see that if local vanished, empire would be completely over run by everyone that suffers from the 50% of the game that currently can not be managed.

I am quite verbose in this explanation out of kindness for those that perform the 50% of the rolls that its a boon to because that is what I want to do *again* sometime.

Point of thread, until there are really fundamental game changes (local no longer central point of intel), tools and skills to replace the local, it will very much break the game.

You will find you'll hate the results as 0.0 and low sec becomes populated by non-but blobs of raiders roaming for kills. Those carebears ratting will dry up as running missions will truly become a better way to make isk to make ships to sell etc.

I am not against local going, just against the destruction of the game as its not been well thought out and more so, play tested in a 30+ system wide roam on sisi.

so, just stop asking for it to happen, CCP already aware but even they are lost for a solution that doesn't require a game rewrite. Crying or Very sad

Gabriel Karade
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.01.06 15:48:00 - [67]

I like the ‘vision’ for Local as in the novel: basically you can ‘go dark’ and disconnect from the NEOCOM but you can’t send or receive any transmissions i.e. you couldn’t talk in other channels, perform wallet actions, receive eve-mails, look up information in people and places e.t.c e.t.c...

Whether or not CCP actually gets near achieving this sort of vision remains to be seen, I do however think we are closer than ever in the last 5 years to seeing an overhaul of ‘Local’

The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.01.06 16:04:00 - [68]

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I like the ‘vision’ for Local as in the novel: basically you can ‘go dark’ and disconnect from the NEOCOM but you can’t send or receive any transmissions i.e. you couldn’t talk in other channels, perform wallet actions, receive eve-mails, look up information in people and places e.t.c e.t.c...

Whether or not CCP actually gets near achieving this sort of vision remains to be seen, I do however think we are closer than ever in the last 5 years to seeing an overhaul of ‘Local’

Though interesting, unfortunately most of the penalties for 'going dark' are easily circumvented by metagaming.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.01.06 17:03:00 - [69]

my idea was essentially along the lines of making the System Scanning Array kind of an intelligence tool that the top dogs can access and give information to the intel channels. The cost would obviously be that you then have to run a pos in every one of ur systems with an array.

So in the best of situations you have additional security. In average times... you're about the same.

Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.01.06 17:23:00 - [70]

Why mess with something that is fine as it is?

Besides that, actually removing local or only being visible when you talk will make EVE online even less social then it is now, therefore I find it a bad idea.

If local does go away, or if you can't talk in local anymore ( because people will notice you ), then there should at least be a constellation chat to replace it.

But again, why mess with a system that is perfectly fine as is?

Ignis et Ultio
Posted - 2009.01.06 17:43:00 - [71]

Edited by: Goyda on 06/01/2009 17:45:40
Well I have suggested this in the other thread(s) regarding no-local chat.

1) in hisec/lowsec where the sovereignty is controlled by the state, they broadcast local (except in systems without stations)
2) If you have a negative standings with the local hi-sec/lowsec sovereignty then you get no feed unless someone talks in channel (perhaps a skill to let you tap into it.)
3) 0.0 No local broadcast unless there is an outpost in system or you have > 50% of the moons POS'd and you can attach a local feed module which feeds to the corp planting it and anyone they set blue. (there's something to make standings matter a whole lot 'eh ?) Then only local if someone chats in local.

Seems fairly simple to me actually.

Cygnus Scott
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.06 18:30:00 - [72]

Easy solution:

Make a Sensor Array that can be anchored in sovereign territory. This will report all uncloaked ships in system to the owner corp/alliance. Another ability you could add to it is that it reports all gate activations by pilots with a negative standing or at war with the corp/alliance.

Make it require a bit of fuel and storage for no more than 15 days so they can't just plop one in a bunch of empty systems and never worry about them again.

As for cloaked ships, that is what cloaked ships are for and Local is actually game breaking for characters who have ships fitted with cloaks. You SHOULDN'T know they are there unless they screw up and de-cloak or you have special scanning equipment.

To make it so Cloaks aren't "standard" on every ship make it so that only ships with the cloaking bonus can activate it. Basically if you ship isn't designed with cloaking device use in mind you don't have the Cap to turn the darn thing on. Problem solved.

Posted - 2009.01.06 20:43:00 - [73]

When I first started out, I was a newbie.

I went into systems didnt check local, and scanned all the planets/belts, and found "people" which were abandoned ships at a POS.

If I had looked at local I would know NOBODY IS IN THERE. Don't make us search for people who don't exist. Its boring.

Also, I think of local as more of a "radar" all ships have. If 25 people warp into a system, your radar kinda pings off them and knows new ships have arrived.

Plus I would miss the tears.

Posted - 2009.01.06 21:43:00 - [74]

Edited by: Aphoticus on 06/01/2009 22:42:32
When I look at sensors, ecm and eccm and some of the specialized ships types we have, it looks to me like we have the beginnings of a new system for local intel. Couple that with the local map for triangulation and marking intel (corp and fleet viewable) and you have the makings of an intel gathering system.

Local should be changed to a communication array concept with the above considerations of Sig Radius, ECM, Sensors, etc. affecting the outcome.

In High Sec, your comm would be lit up with local traffic reports provided by Concord. Local would be unchanged in high sec.

As you go lower in sec, this will change dramatically unless corporations have equipment and people in place to monitor their space and subsequently cloaked operatives providing the reverse intel in those areas. (opens up a skill set for hacking communication channels - too hopeful).

Cloaked operatives should remain hidden unless they make a mistake. If they uncloak and the right poeple and equipment (POS or otherwise) are in place, their last known position can be pin-pointed.

If they warp, it can throw out a warp signiture, if they move fast enough and someone is within certain calibrated sensor ranges based on equipment and skills previously mentioned, bingo.

It was actually a shock when I entered this game for the first time a year or so ago and found that our Sensors, ECM, Ship sig radius, cloaking devices, ECM, etc. was not tied into the local comm channel. Shocked.

Whenever a gate goes off, big sig radius, sensors would light up half way across a system to the right probes, sensor equipment, pos equipment, whatever is in place... someone investigate. There would be no need for 100% watch dogs, merely mindful gathers keeping tabs.

If you open broad communication channels as in hailing anyone out there, you show up, if you pin-point, LOS (line-of-sight) communication for Covert Ops, or specialized signal arrays, whatever, then you get a tight signal able to be intercepted by anyone with the right listening equipment between those two points.

The options are various and gloriously awesome. It would provide one of the rarest concepts to any MMO.

Just my take... I would love to see a specialized forum channel just for hashing out the specs on ECM, sensors, equipment, etc, in graphs to start looking at these possiblilities instead of the monsterous posts we see about this all the time.

The Infinite !

Edit: After re-reading this, it dawned on me that there is a distinct difference between communication and detection. Just another thing to think about.

Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.01.06 22:47:00 - [75]

The best part of the whole remove local discussion.

All CCP has to do is role back Local to when there was NO nice little blue or red boxes next to the persons name and see how that goes.

When they were added there was no thread naught bout OMG you ruined the game.
Instead a vast majority liked the addition.

Now we have the Local is terrible it ruins the game threads.
Interesting how times have changed.

Synergy Evolved
Posted - 2009.01.07 00:25:00 - [76]

Originally by: Spurty
A simple scenario is how do 'space holding' alliances defend against a pos bowling roaming gang of say 100-400 people ?

They can't see em coming or going, no ability to know 100% for sure if they have another 200 people in a system next door for backup, no ability to plan a defense against what is their escape route. No ability to tell if you have won or not and to what degree especially if everyone fits a cloak (which will be primary mod fitted to every ship second this happens).

This is the first of many screw ups removing local is going to generate.

If someone can answer how exactly anyone is supposed to hold space for more than 24 hours when BOB or NC can easily mount such sized gangs, please educate us.

This is called Intelligence Gathering. It ranges from spies and infiltrators (which are plentiful in most alliances) right down to the good old scouting. You know, ships flying patrols through gates, using the scanner as they go. Most regions have single chokepoint entries. Setup patrols on the gates. Most alliances can provide coverage 23/7. There are POS scanner arrays that could tell you composition of the enemy fleet, even if they are safespotted.

And no, you won't need to waste all your time sitting bored on a gate, cause like i said, there are also spies. All major alliances have intelligence networks, so they would know approximately when the attack is coming, and that is when you send out the scouts. They can either scout the chokepoint gates, or sit clocked in the enemy's home staging system and observe the fleet movement. Just like real scouts do.

Cyno-portals? Once again, they can be tracked on the map. So can the concentration of people in a system. I've never seen big operations "get ready and leave" in less than half hour, and that is all it takes to show up as a blob on the map.

There are plenty of tools (and ships) designed specifically for intel gathering. Unfortunately, because of local, most of those other tools are underused and simply forgotten. Local was never meant to be an intel tool. CCP said so themselves.

Posted - 2009.01.07 00:28:00 - [77]

***gots, play with Local minimized if your bothered.

Combat and Recon
Posted - 2009.01.07 00:52:00 - [78]

Personally, I'm all for local being changed to a delayed mode channel. There would probably need to be some changes to the scanner so you don't constantly have to hammer scan when you are ratting though. A ship proximity warning or some such thing perhaps? just thinking off the top of my head here...

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