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kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.02 15:47:00 - [1]
 

Bout time this was sorted imho.

Players using alts in logistics ship to remote rep there main characters in high sec and low without consequence.

Really dont believe this is a fair use of them in eve personally. My personal opinion is to have this tactic flag all neutral logistic giving ships to the pilots corp he/she is fighting with there main.

Reminds me very much of the time this tactic was used agaisnt concord in the days concord didnt change targets. Everyone used to remote rep the main focus of concord and pirates were able to kill people in Nonni and Yulai and one point.





Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.01.02 16:50:00 - [2]
 

But you can shoot him as soon as he starts repping. I don't see a huge problem. Am I missing something?

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.02 17:31:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But you can shoot him as soon as he starts repping. I don't see a huge problem. Am I missing something?


Well yeah actually...

You cant shoot him without being flagged, he's unaggressed and can dock/jump as an when and has no consequence toward the target the friendly in the gang is firing upon because he is Neutral to any war target, militia or otherwise.

If in high sec you cant so much as sneeze in the neutral logistics direction.

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2009.01.02 18:45:00 - [4]
 

What about neutral cap booster haulers? Embarassed

sondre
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2009.01.02 19:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dibsi Dei
What about neutral cap booster haulers? Embarassed


TouchèLaughing

F4LC0N
Posted - 2009.01.03 01:14:00 - [6]
 

easiest way to solve the problem with neutrals supporting your enemy in any way is to remove high sec but this wont happen.

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:59:00 - [7]
 

in before "well you can shoot the neutral reppers"

oh wait


tbh, i do honestly think it needs to be nerfed, were hearing about it more and more

but the best way to sort this m8 is to unfortunately lower yourself to their level and use your own neutral logistics

doesnt even have to be a logistics ship, just a ship w/ alot of high slots

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.01.03 05:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
But you can shoot him as soon as he starts repping. I don't see a huge problem. Am I missing something?


hmmmm

insta-dock and

insta-aggres, which means they can now dock up (insta-dock) and get their own combat ship, and so its went from a 1 vs. 1 to a 1;and his logistic pilot vs. 1 ; to a 2 vs. 1


second, not that it needs to be nerfed, buuut, the range on logistics ships is extremely long, (50, 60km?) and now that makes it im-practical to even catch them (assuming they go that route)


kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.03 09:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: sondre
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
What about neutral cap booster haulers? Embarassed


TouchèLaughing


lol ok, thats not quite as bad.

If people used there head abit more, they could shoot that can that pops out in 1-2 volleys. Its a local tank Cool

Diziet Coderusa
Posted - 2009.01.03 10:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: kessah
Bout time this was sorted imho.

Players using alts






Fixed

Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.01.03 11:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: kessah
Originally by: sondre
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
What about neutral cap booster haulers? Embarassed


TouchèLaughing


lol ok, thats not quite as bad.

If people used there head abit more, they could shoot that can that pops out in 1-2 volleys. Its a local tank Cool


I thought shooting a neutral entity's can would draw aggro from CONCORD in hisec? It's been a while since I've flown hisec, so correct me if that is wrong.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.03 13:15:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: kessah on 03/01/2009 13:15:39
Originally by: Diziet Coderusa
Originally by: kessah
Bout time this was sorted imho.

Players using alts






Fixed


Post with your main coward.

Alts or friends doesnt matter what role they are, but the way this (imho bug) is used is still the same.

Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: kessah
Originally by: sondre
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
What about neutral cap booster haulers? Embarassed


TouchèLaughing


lol ok, thats not quite as bad.

If people used there head abit more, they could shoot that can that pops out in 1-2 volleys. Its a local tank Cool


I thought shooting a neutral entity's can would draw aggro from CONCORD in hisec? It's been a while since I've flown hisec, so correct me if that is wrong.


It does, wherin lies the problem of this bug being exploited.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.01.03 16:46:00 - [13]
 

From my understanding this change came about because of how the militia functions. There was concern with a single militia pilot bringing along a bunch of non-militia friends for some pvp.

I heavily disagree with any nerf to "logistic"* ships; they are in general underutilized and there are plenty of counters in the EW range.

*combat support is a better term.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2009.01.03 17:21:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
From my understanding this change came about because of how the militia functions. There was concern with a single militia pilot bringing along a bunch of non-militia friends for some pvp.

I heavily disagree with any nerf to "logistic"* ships; they are in general underutilized and there are plenty of counters in the EW range.

*combat support is a better term.


Im not calling for a nerf logistics, i just want to be able to shoot at them if they interfere in combat that they are not directly invovled with.

Wars are between the two participating corps no one else.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2009.01.03 18:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: kessah
Im not calling for a nerf logistics, i just want to be able to shoot at them if they interfere in combat that they are not directly invovled with.

Wars are between the two participating corps no one else.

Someone else suggested a nerf; and I agree that aggression mechanics need to be thought out a bit more.

Jing Kai
Posted - 2009.01.03 19:50:00 - [16]
 

Just pop the neutral repper, I had a problem were a guy who rob my corps wrecks n get rr from 7 guys and 1 logitsics ship. So we set a trap for it and now that problem is over.. Most of the its an Alt so a mild distraction tend to buy more then enough time to pop a logistics ship...

Diziet Coderusa
Posted - 2009.01.03 20:07:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Diziet Coderusa on 03/01/2009 20:38:17
Edited by: Diziet Coderusa on 03/01/2009 20:12:25
Originally by: kessah
Edited by: kessah on 03/01/2009 13:15:39


Post with your main coward.

Alts or friends doesnt matter what role they are, but the way this (imho bug) is used is still the same.




No u

Cibo Seidensha
Amarr
Biotronics Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.03 21:39:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
Just pop the neutral repper


Yes, but usually it looks like this:

You have the two parties who are at war and then a third one shows up. Their logistics will rep on side, but they will also have some DPS with them. Now if you shoot the logistics, this will only make things worse, as suddenly the whole bunch of additional DPS, that couldnt do anything before, can now target you.

Cibo Seidensha
Amarr
Biotronics Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.01.03 21:39:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Cibo Seidensha on 03/01/2009 21:39:35
- double ftl

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.03 22:01:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jing Kai
Just pop the neutral repper,


The problem is mostly when fighting next to a jump gate or station, you'll attack the logistics ship but as soon as it's in danger of being destroyed it will simply dock/jump repair and come straight back out to help the ship your attacking.

F4LC0N
Posted - 2009.01.03 22:12:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: F4LC0N on 03/01/2009 22:13:17
btw since when is eve a fair game?

nothing realy wrong with neutrals helping your enemy cause you can shoot them if they do.

if its a logistic ship shoot it or the faster way to get rid of it jam it.

Quote:
Wars are between the two participating corps no one else

if your war target has friends in for you neutral corps then you have to deal with them if they wish to help them,
since you still play eve where you are in a open world and not limited to a instanced battlefield.

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.03 22:22:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: F4LC0N

btw since when is eve a fair game?



Well I couldn't care less about fair but I can't imagine it's a big deal to anyone if repping another person gives the aggression counter so they can't insta dock/jump ?


Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.01.03 22:50:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 03/01/2009 22:50:16
Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Jing Kai
Just pop the neutral repper,


The problem is mostly when fighting next to a jump gate or station, you'll attack the logistics ship but as soon as it's in danger of being destroyed it will simply dock/jump repair and come straight back out to help the ship your attacking.

It shouldn't be like that. I noticed a similar thing with my heavy interdictor where the bubble didn't seem to count as agression most of the time but sometimes it did. I could have a bubble up at a gate and instantly jump if I started taking damage.

Remote repping should activate the standard jump and dock timers that agression activates. Then if the neutral remote reps your wartarget, he can't dock until he stops repping for 60 seconds. Since I assumed that's how it was initially and every indication is that this is how CCP intends it to be, I would go as far as to say this is actually a bug in the agression timer system that should be bug-reported.

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.03 23:03:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Nyphur

It shouldn't be like that..


It depends on the situation, we're talking war targets so neither party has a criminal countdown etc so when I rep one side there isn't a countdown to pass to me and therefore prevent me docking up.

If the person I'd repped had taken from a flipped a can or been an outlaw then I'd recieve the countdown and be prevented from jumping or docking until I deagressed.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.01.03 23:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Nyphur

It shouldn't be like that..


It depends on the situation, we're talking war targets so neither party has a criminal countdown etc so when I rep one side there isn't a countdown to pass to me and therefore prevent me docking up.

So the bug here is that youre only given a docking/jumping aggro timer if you rep someone who has a currently active agression timer. So if you start repping before the attack begins, even though you're now flashing red to the wartargets you don't have the docking/jumping aggro timer. But if you start repping after the attack, an agression flag to the actual participants in the fight is passed to you and that makes your repping a "hostile" action for the purposes of giving a docking/jumping aggro timer.

Seems like a clear bug to me, any situation where your actions cause you to be combat flagged to a person or corp (such as repping someone who has a war) should be giving you that aggro timer for docking and jumping. Anything else is clearly abusable, as evidenced by this thread and numerous other complaints.

Jonas Barcal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.04 00:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nyphur


Seems like a clear bug to me



I've been trying to find a fairly recent posting by a Dev saying that's just the way it is but I can't track it down even using eve-search.

I think using drones to rep actually does give you the counter and prevent docking but I can't test until Feb when I get my new computer as Eve doesn't exactly run on a mobile phone Very Happy

Iniquita
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.01.04 01:58:00 - [27]
 

Seems repping someone who is hostile towards you would make the repper hostile. Im kind of surprised it doesnt

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.01.04 02:21:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Nyphur

Seems like a clear bug to me



I've been trying to find a fairly recent posting by a Dev saying that's just the way it is but I can't track it down even using eve-search.

I had this problem once when filing a different bug report. They were sure I was talking about a legitimate feature and it turned out they just didn't understand what I was talking about. The key is creating EXACT reproduction steps and explaining what should happen and what does happen.

Nanobot
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.01.04 10:53:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Nanobot on 04/01/2009 10:54:11
If item is high slot, and item is active, aggro timer = on.
Who cares if they haven't been shot at yet, your showing a wilful intention to help em.

Or somethin like that, meh no computer geek, rip it apart.

Gar Ddhen
Gallente
Inspired Beginnings
Posted - 2009.01.04 11:51:00 - [30]
 

No, agression timers on remote reps would be a bad thing.

Now that aggression has been changed so that you cannot fire on gang members who are not members of your corp, why should the logistics pilot be the only one penalised for repping gang mates? What happens when you get aggression timer for repping alliance or militia at a gate? What heppens when said gang gets bounced and everyone else but the logistics is able to jump because they are not aggressed? What happens when you are repping a friendly POS that is not your corps and the guns open up on you because remote reps are counted as aggression? Or gate guns? Or CONCORD? Good way to kill off the use a ship type that was all but useless for a good proportion of its lifespan. You shouldnt be looking at penalising the vast majority of logistics pilots who fly the ships the way they are meant to just to screw up a few.

Now, if the neutral logistics isnt flagged as a target thats a different matter... that does need to be sorted out. Repping someone not of your corp should make you a viable target to whomever the guy your are supporting is shooting at. Aggression? No.


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