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Venomae
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.01.03 00:29:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Venomae
Pointless thread.

Everyone knows that Drones are the best weapon system in New Eden.

Blasters? Pfft. Lasers? Haha. Torps? LMAO.

Buff drones!

Drone dmg rigs!

Drone dmg mods!




what are you whining about? Domi is the best solo BS in QR.
In wich point I was whining?



I was only asking more dmg to drones.

MORE is good, m'kay? Wink

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.01.03 00:41:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?


The module, Stasis Web II fixes that problem. Add two and a target painter for good measure.

The fact you suggest that, springs to mind an AB BS, which is lolworthy in its own right.

Originally by: fuxinos
Troll fails at being a troll.

T1 Torps go 20Km with max skills, Javs go 30Km.... Megapulse II with Scorch goes over 50Km.Rolling EyesRolling Eyes




Ever hear of a Raven? Its got a nice bonus to range you know. Scorch L goes to 45km in ships that aren't the Apoc.

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
No, torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruptors, but they are vulnerable to ABs. More than turrets are to tracking duisruptors I should say.

If you intend to put tracking disruptors on your ship to directly counter turrets, the correct comparison is a similar ship with ABs to directly counter torps.



Comically wrong.

Two webs and you get that AB BS going at impotent speeds. Not to mention that any BS with an AB is comedy fail fit.

Now tracking disruptors can push the beloved Scorch L optimal to under 7km. I'd say thats more of an effect than some idiot thinking an AB is a good midslot for a PvP BS.

We won't even go into changeable damage types either.

Originally by: Venomae
Buff drones!

Drone dmg rigs!

Drone dmg mods!




I wantz drone damage mods for the Moros, its drone DPS is quite underpowered Laughing

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.01.03 00:43:00 - [123]
 

Why am I still hearing about AFTERBURNERs on BS?

What battleship uses an AB for pvp?! I'm dying to know - I haven't done it, and I don't see my opponents rocking afterburners.

What is the benefit in going 300 m/s to get into combat range, when a MWD will do it better. What benefit is an AB giving you that a different mid slot item wouldn't be better for?

I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just wondering why people are using afterburner fits to compare BS weapon systems for pvp.

Its rediculous.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.03 01:02:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Why am I still hearing about AFTERBURNERs on BS?

What battleship uses an AB for pvp?! I'm dying to know - I haven't done it, and I don't see my opponents rocking afterburners.

What is the benefit in going 300 m/s to get into combat range, when a MWD will do it better. What benefit is an AB giving you that a different mid slot item wouldn't be better for?

I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just wondering why people are using afterburner fits to compare BS weapon systems for pvp.

Its rediculous.


I will assume you are being sincere and want to discuss about it, and not trolling. So I will take my time and answer you.

ABs will greatly reduce the damage you take from both missiles and Blasters. They can't be shut down by blaster boats with warp scramblers, and don't increase your sig radius.

If you have a blaster boat you can't escape from having to use a MWD, but in a high range battleship like any amarr or caldari one ABs may be a better option, especially in low sec where escaping from bubbles is not an issue.

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.03 01:18:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Soporo on 03/01/2009 01:18:44
*Torps*
Quote:
The module, Stasis Web II fixes that problem. Add two and a target painter for good measure.


At which point you've lost 3 slots from tank, 4 with a MWD, for a short range brawl and rely on being within web range, thus negating any reason to fit for range anyway.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.01.03 01:32:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous
Why am I still hearing about AFTERBURNERs on BS?
What battleship uses an AB for pvp?! I'm dying to know - I haven't done it, and I don't see my opponents rocking afterburners.
What is the benefit in going 300 m/s to get into combat range, when a MWD will do it better. What benefit is an AB giving you that a different mid slot item wouldn't be better for?
I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just wondering why people are using afterburner fits to compare BS weapon systems for pvp.
Its rediculous.

AB's on a BS pretty much reduce torpedo and cruise missile damage by 50% and make it very hard for the long range guns to hit you.. No, they are no were near as fast as MWD's but they also take very little damage from overloading and dont drain all your cap in 1 minute.


Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.01.03 02:16:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Rastigan

AB's on a BS pretty much reduce torpedo and cruise missile damage by 50% and make it very hard for the long range guns to hit you.. No, they are no were near as fast as MWD's but they also take very little damage from overloading and dont drain all your cap in 1 minute.




And then you get double webbed and you go 90m/s. Top speed.

Wow, Torps/Cruise and long range guns will still hit you perfectly well.

Oops

Arbax Redne
Posted - 2009.01.03 02:26:00 - [128]
 

When blasters ruled I trained for drones and recons so I could fly the curse. At the time the Domi with nos and drones was also pretty damn powerful. When neuts got nerfed I trained for missiles and flew the Sac.

The Domi can have full damage with drones and neut it's target pretty damn well, while still fielding a tank. A very good close range tier 1 BS, like the geddon.
The mega is still a very good fleet ship pretty much on par with the apoc at 150-180k range were most fleet fights take place.
Or you can train caldari and fly the rokh if you still want to use blasters at the ranges you're talking about.

I don't think people realize how skill intensive amarr really is. And nerfing is a vicious cycle.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.03 03:18:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 03/01/2009 03:26:24
Originally by: Artemis Rose

And then you get double webbed and you go 90m/s. Top speed.

Wow, Torps/Cruise and long range guns will still hit you perfectly well.

Oops


Considering Webs are stack penalyzed, and now reduce only 60% of the speed, after being double webbed you will be at half your original speed (about 60 m/s for a battleship). That takes 3 mid slots, as I will consider you will be warp disrupting the target too. Oh, and you still need a painter to to do full damage with torpedos. So it is 4 mid slots. Add a MWD and we have 5...

On the other hand, if you are using a MWD and get warp scrambled + webbed (a more realistic scenario of 2 slots used), you will be reduced to 40% of your original speed (or about 45 m/s).

So in the hypothetical case of being pinned, you will be no matter what you are using. Only you will be worse in a MWD battleship than you would be in an AB one.

There is one justification to fit MWD on battleships, it is called bubbles, but they can only be found in 0.0, so ther eis plenty of space for AB.

Quote:

Comically wrong.

Two webs and you get that AB BS going at impotent speeds. Not to mention that any BS with an AB is comedy fail fit.

Now tracking disruptors can push the beloved Scorch L optimal to under 7km. I'd say thats more of an effect than some idiot thinking an AB is a good midslot for a PvP BS.

We won't even go into changeable damage types either.



As I explained above two webs are a bit unrealistic and with a single web AB still reduces about 40$ of the damage over you. Now tracking disruptors can be countered as well with other modules. so if you find reasonable to use 2 Webs I also find very reasonable to equip 2 tracking computers.

Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.01.03 03:31:00 - [130]
 

I agree NERF the heck out of large bs lasers, they have better range and dps than all other guns.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.01.03 03:38:00 - [131]
 

Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:00:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

There is one justification to fit MWD on battleships, it is called bubbles,


Oh GOD! You can't seriously believe that, can you?

Originally by: Stab Wounds
I agree NERF the heck out of large bs lasers, they have better range and dps than all other guns.


Hey! It's Stab Wounds chiming in to support nerfing lasers! What a surprise!

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


This, pretty much.

Oh, and hai Dan! <3

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:12:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/01/2009 04:13:59
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Your argumentation is inconsistent, incoherent and ultimately nonsensical.


No, it isn't.

Quote:
There is no such a thing as balance point for each weapon system.


Yes, there is. There is a point where a weapon system functions as it is intended to function and is balanced within the sphere of eve, not just in a 1:1 comparison with blasters or ACs or torps. This is what I am referring to by "balanced point". You keep looking at blasters vs. pulse, AC vs. pulse...more or less disregarding the huge number of other factors that are involved in the balance of a weapon system or any other single thing within EVE.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:24:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

Considering Webs are stack penalyzed, and now reduce only 60% of the speed, after being double webbed you will be at half your original speed (about 60 m/s for a battleship


Well inside the torp explosion velocity, even with crap skills. Where's this damage reduction that you speak of?

Quote:
As I explained above two webs are a bit unrealistic and with a single web AB still reduces about 40$ of the damage over you.


Having two webs in a whole gang is far from being realistic.

Now if we step in your magical, wonderful world of theory crafting 1 vs 1 BS fighting, an AB BS couldn't possibly kill an MWD one. Why?

If the MWD BS wants to be close, it will come in close, and if it doesn't, you won't be fighting it. It would just harmlessly burn out of your point range and escape into the stars.

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


Thank you Lyria. Simple and to the point.

viiip3r
Amarr
1 WonkTong Noodle
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:32:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


I guess some Gallent & Caldari need to goto school, Not only do they not know how Amarr's are fitted, dreaming up Gall & Cald fits for Amarr, but they moan about everything under the sun.

Amarr like Gallente only do two types of damage, so Nerf the Caldari missiles to only two types, then sort the Amarr DPS? or go back to school.

Passive tanking Amarr? make me laugh, Only if it wants to end it's days fast, nerf the Cladari passive tank ships and reduce the Amarr dependency to CAP ! that will even things up.

Everyone knows the Caldari are the over powered race in Eve, sniping in from 100k+ to practically zero KM. No switching missiles for range every 20Km ? that would be fun on Caldari.

You lot are like a pack of last year students, Amarr is over powered, you need to become an amarr chr: to see how wrong you are. Amarr is one of the hardest races to get enywhere with only second to the Mim.

If I could start again, I'd probably do Caldari, super DPS, Super Tanks passive & active, weapons that do damage in all four groups NOT TWO & Gallents super drone boats & close rANGE MEGA dps BLASTERS fitted for DPS & Neuts.

rant over ;)

AB on BS for Amarr lol :D what next? I wish I could shild tank Amarr ships ! Ah.



Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.03 04:37:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 03/01/2009 04:56:11
Originally by: Artemis Rose

Well inside the torp explosion velocity, even with crap skills. Where's this damage reduction that you speak of?



Even if the target is stationary it still suffers from the difference between the target's signature radius and the torpedo's explosion radius. So even after reducing the speed to 60 m/s you still need to paint a battleship to inflict full damage upon it.

Quote:

Having two webs in a whole gang is far from being realistic.

Now if we step in your magical, wonderful world of theory crafting 1 vs 1 BS fighting, an AB BS couldn't possibly kill an MWD one. Why?

If the MWD BS wants to be close, it will come in close, and if it doesn't, you won't be fighting it. It would just harmlessly burn out of your point range and escape into the stars.




No it is not, but then again it is not unrealistic having a number of other things. Like ECM, warp scramblers, sensor dampeners, recon ships, etc. So if you are going to argue that there is a counter to AB, I will have to agree with you, but then again there is also a counter to tracking disruptors, and in a gang it is not unrealistic, neither unlikely that you will have a falcon for example, to break the lock of the guy using the tracking disruptor.

So we have easily demonstrated that your argument is moot. Now to the 1x1 case. In the magical world of 1x1, also known as the only world where gallente stands a chance, if the MWD battleship decides to engage, it won't be able to activate its MWD anymore and there fore will be locked and slower than the AB one. So yes, the MWD battleship can run away if it starts far enough from the AB, but as long as it engages it loses.

Quote:

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


Thank you Lyria. Simple and to the point.


Quoting Lyria is not unlike quoting Bush. It is always assured fun.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.01.03 05:59:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

I will assume you are being sincere and want to discuss about it, and not trolling. So I will take my time and answer you.

ABs will greatly reduce the damage you take from both missiles and Blasters. They can't be shut down by blaster boats with warp scramblers, and don't increase your sig radius.

If you have a blaster boat you can't escape from having to use a MWD, but in a high range battleship like any amarr or caldari one ABs may be a better option, especially in low sec where escaping from bubbles is not an issue.


I'm as sincere as they come.

You are suggesting speed tanking with an AB on a high DPS battleship.

The key for any short range high dps weapon is getting into your optimal as fast as possible.

This will not happen with an AB.

You will waste time getting form one ship to the next, all for tanking better.

As for scrams....


So what? Gank BS can still do dps beyond scram range - the point is getting within 20km 3x faster with a MWD vs a an AB.

PvP is about dictating range for your engagement.

A battleship going 300 m/s isn't dictating ****.

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.01.03 06:00:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?


Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose
At 20-30km what does more damage?


Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose
30km-45km what does more damage?


Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.



yes, target painters don't exist, otherwise I'd be a different scenario ...


Wideen.....


SHHHHH


Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.01.03 06:01:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


Well it was bound to happen one day - I agree with you. Laughing

Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.01.03 06:57:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Stab Wounds on 03/01/2009 06:57:21
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

I will assume you are being sincere and want to discuss about it, and not trolling. So I will take my time and answer you.

ABs will greatly reduce the damage you take from both missiles and Blasters. They can't be shut down by blaster boats with warp scramblers, and don't increase your sig radius.

If you have a blaster boat you can't escape from having to use a MWD, but in a high range battleship like any amarr or caldari one ABs may be a better option, especially in low sec where escaping from bubbles is not an issue.


I'm as sincere as they come.

You are suggesting speed tanking with an AB on a high DPS battleship.

The key for any short range high dps weapon is getting into your optimal as fast as possible.

This will not happen with an AB.

You will waste time getting form one ship to the next, all for tanking better.

As for scrams....


So what? Gank BS can still do dps beyond scram range - the point is getting within 20km 3x faster with a MWD vs a an AB.

PvP is about dictating range for your engagement.

A battleship going 300 m/s isn't dictating ****.


so wut you can tank most large gun damage going from target to target and you switch to longer range ammo

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.03 07:28:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Stab Wounds

so wut you can tank most large gun damage going from target to target and you switch to longer range ammo


They will close range and web and/or just fly in a manner to reduce transversal.

AB's are useful, but not on short range BS. You might get away with on an an Amarr BS if you're content on not dictating range and simply burning back to gates with it. Similarly with a longer range setup you might get away with it to burn out of bubbles and such, but you will run into a lot of problems if the rest of your fleet fits MWD's.

Its utility is greatly enhanced, but its a pretty well established to not be an effective module for a short range battleship

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.01.03 07:30:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So we have easily demonstrated that your argument is moot. Now to the 1x1 case. In the magical world of 1x1, also known as the only world where gallente stands a chance, if the MWD battleship decides to engage, it won't be able to activate its MWD anymore and there fore will be locked and slower than the AB one. So yes, the MWD battleship can run away if it starts far enough from the AB, but as long as it engages it loses.


Not being able to use the MWD? What, you've got a 7.5km scram in those plentiful midslots on a Amarr BS?

That's a really novel fit. The worst speed mod (and arguably, one of the worst midslot choices you could make on a PvP setup), a short range scrambler and a weapon system that excels at 15-44km. Rolling Eyes

Anile8er
Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2009.01.03 07:51:00 - [143]
 

ughokay good points........ now the ones you forgot.

A ton more cap usage then any other gun system in game......Surprised

MWD on an Amarr BS? Cause the Geddon has sooooooo many mid slots. And cruising at 600 m/s in a plate Abaddon is useful.Confused

Fixed damage type...........Shocked

Generaly less DPS effective against armor tankers........ugh

YEP seems overpowered..........Rolling Eyes

Actually I think its an example of the "give and take" system in EVE. The gun system has advantages and disadvantages.


Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.01.03 09:23:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Stab Wounds

so wut you can tank most large gun damage going from target to target and you switch to longer range ammo


assuming you never get hit with a web, that and going 300m/s between targets will most likely leave you at some point with low enough tranversial to get blown up good by the opposing gang.

yep brilliant, time to go fit an afterburner to every one of my ships.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.01.03 11:28:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 03/01/2009 11:30:38
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.


Lyria makes up for all those Amarr whines with this 100% true gem.

Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.01.03 11:33:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.


You're doing it wrong. As a full time Torp user, let me assure you that torps are a cruiser's (let alone anything bigger) worst enemy with 1 or 2 TPs on him and dual webbed from a Rapier/Huginn.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.01.03 11:41:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 03/01/2009 11:42:51

Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.


You're doing it wrong. As a full time Torp user, let me assure you that torps are a cruiser's (let alone anything bigger) worst enemy with 1 or 2 TPs on him and dual webbed from a Rapier/Huginn.


You don't really need the Huginn. Before QR, you needed your target webbed to prevent it MWDing off and laughing at you, and all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS needed to be painted to receive full torp damage.

In QR, your BS torp target needs to be webbed and painted just as much as it did before QR. Nothing changed... except possibly some EFT warriors thought about fitting lol-ABs. Laughing

Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.01.03 11:54:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
You don't really need the Huginn. Before QR, you needed your target webbed to prevent it MWDing off and laughing at you, and all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS needed to be painted to receive full torp damage.

In QR, your BS torp target needs to be webbed and painted just as much as it did before QR. Nothing changed... except possibly some EFT warriors thought about fitting lol-ABs. Laughing


I've always flown with a web ship in fleet, even before QR... QR just brought others around to the idea of dropping a TP on those ships that get a bonus to them. Wink

Wish I could have gotten people to throw them on before QR, but meh. I haven't seen a rise in AB usage over MWD's tbh (at least compared to pre-QR), and I've looked at a lot of KMs. YARRRR!!

Aerin Cloudfayr
the evil ones
Posted - 2009.01.03 21:52:00 - [149]
 

Tracking disruptors, deal with it lol


seriously, while there are a tonne of advantages using megapulse, there are also a tonne of advantages using any other weapon system in the right circumstan ces.

Arty/Autocannons - Explosive Damage. Break the tank baby. Muninn anyone? That thing is SOO not pathetic.
Rails/Blasters - Stupidly happy-face optimal with ship bonuses {Rokh), and shotgun effectiveness at facepunch range (Mega).
Beam/Pulse - Good fire rates without reloads, and effectiveness at medium ranges.
Cruise/Torps - Choose your ammo and unload on big fat sig radii. Some of the best tankers with moderate skills and a can of whoop-ass on broken tanks.

What's the go with crying about the stats here, you ought to get into the test server and really pay some attention to how it works, not how it looks.


aaaaand I just have to say, let's all get Tracking Disruptor happy :) It's rather good.


On a side note - I don't see any gamedev sensibility here, nor designer practicality coming from any of these complaints. Present to me some actual battle stats, and then say what you like.

I'll put my hand up as a geddon pilot, and I'll vouch that I'll lose to your double-repped MegaT when you DO make it into range with your guns. If you don't manage to make it into range and get under the guns, you're a clown, and you should go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure with your paper statistics and blind scrutiny. Poor form guys.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.01.03 22:19:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.


You're doing it wrong. As a full time Torp user, let me assure you that torps are a cruiser's (let alone anything bigger) worst enemy with 1 or 2 TPs on him and dual webbed from a Rapier/Huginn.


I have always wanted to fly with a double web, and target painter huggin/rapier. especially with my torp raven. although I must say our ravens seem to be doing just fine using torps.

as for pulse lasers, I figured out that they were the best weapon for gate camping a bit over a year ago, aka I was sitting on a gate, and realizing that hey they are going to decloak 10-15km away, my lasers have an optimal of 14km. that is it, I am speccing amarr. (I splashed into amarr at this point, that's when it was decided t2 large guns and amarr bs 5 were the way to go, and no I wont tell you whats next)


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