open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked BS Pulse overpowered?.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic

Cpt Cosmic
Posted - 2009.01.02 19:55:00 - [61]
 

no one mentioned projectiles Laughing

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.02 19:58:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
no one mentioned projectiles Laughing


Arties suck donkey balls and need a big boost and AC need a buff or two as well tbh.

Feel better?.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:11:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 02/01/2009 20:33:27
Originally by: Letifer Deus

And when people say what I said, the "something else" they are relating to is a theoretical "balanced point." Are MPs overpowered compared to blaters? Yes. But this is because blasters are underpowered compared to their theoretical "balanced point," not because MPs are overpowered compared to theirs.



Sorry but that does not make sense at all. MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario, not because blasters are outside some fictitious balanced point. And I am talking 1v1 here, if we start to increase numbers the effect of focus fire make the difference in performance ridiculous.

You can say exactly the same about MPs and ACs.

Torps at least can focus fire almost as well (assuming you are using ravens, which have a range bonus), but still the difficulties in reaching a comparable damage are considerable, and laser boats can still outrange and focus fire more effectivelly due to their instant damage and higher range with Scorch.


Quote:
ATM I do almost exclusively empire and low sec PvP and I don't remember the last BS I killed that had an AB fitted. BS still generally go MWD or nothing.


Sorry, but the fact you didn't see them, does not mean they don't exist, either way ABs only aggravate the problem torps have to achieve their full potential damage, the problem exists even without them.


Quote:

If you have a TP and at least 1 of your gang mates has a web I bet your actual DPS is at least as close to your potential DPS as any other close ranged BS weapon platform.


In my example, a 165 m/s Typhoon, supposing it is webbed by a T2 Web and painted with a T2 or Meta 4 painter, the torpedo damage will be 92% of the nominal. In this situation to achieve full damage you still need a second painter.

With 92% of the nominal torpedo damage, a Raven, fitted for maximum damage ends 100 dps behind an Armageddon with a similar setup. That against Battleships, which should be the torpedo's strong point. Lets not even compare the effectivity of both ships against smaller ships...

That said, I don't think there is a problem with torpedos. If you compare them with blasters and ACs, they have each their advantages. The problem are mega pulses, which make all previous three completely obsolete in almost all situations.

Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:15:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Colonel Xaven

Blasters are being discussed by CCP afaik.


Really? What little bird told you this?


Zulupark in his Q&A post. Someone must have cried badly...

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:24:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 02/01/2009 20:27:49
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Sorry but that does not make sense at all. MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario, not because blasters are outside some fictitious balanced point.


No, it does make sense. Smack yourself twice, reread and think. Very Happy


Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Zulupark in his Q&A post. Someone must have cried badly...


Zulu said a lot of things in his Q&A, I don't hold high hopes for much of it.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:26:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


Sorry but that does not make sense at all. MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario, not because blasters are outside some fictitious balanced point.


No, it does make sense. Hit your head a few times and reread it.


I suggest you follow your own advice before asking others to do it. I seem to be the one who will certainly most benefit from it, and even if you do not benefit at all from it, you still have nothing to lose.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:30:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 02/01/2009 20:31:01
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

I suggest you follow your own advice before asking others to do it. I seem to be the one who will certainly most benefit from it, and even if you do not benefit at all from it, you still have nothing to lose.


When did I say I did not understand anything you said? I understand exactly what you are saying and I am saying it is wrong. You, however, seem lost on my point which I believe is not that difficult of a concept to understand.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:34:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 02/01/2009 20:34:38
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario,


This is not true. People complaining about blaster ships are simply refusing to use the advantages that are present in the ships they have which are many and varied compared to the Amarr alternative and refuse to use the systems designed to carry them through larger gangs. That is their fault, not the weapons.

C/P from other thread.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/PassHypVGedd.jpg

This is looking at a passive tanked Hyperion(1 plate, 2 eanm, 1 dc, 2 damage mods, 3 tri-marks) compared to a Passive tanked Armageddon(2 plates, 2 anp[so it has CPU to fit med slots], 1 dc, 3 hs, 3 trimarks) against a weak armor tank[IIRC these are the Myrmidon numbers, which have a slight slant towards laser using ships]. The Hyperion has an extra web, and both have roughly the same Effective Hit Points[around 109k]. This is using the sig/speed profile of the Harbinger. Against a real harbinger you can expect blasters doing a bit better as the Harbinger has more armor, less shield, and no racial kinetic resistances. Against a real myrmidon you can expect lasers doing a bit better as the Myrmidon has a larger signature radius, which makes tracking less important. I used this comparison first because the Armageddon was the ship that had the most DPS in the previous graphs, and it has a much weaker tank than the Abaddon. Such the passive Hyperion was a better fit to compare against it.

As you can see, except for a very small area under 1km, where the Hyperion, with its two webs, should never really find itself with a target, the Hyperion utterly destroys the Armageddon in DPS under 10km. There is a very small blip where the Armageddon is worse, but that blip will almost never be seen in actual play due to how long it takes ships to slow down.

A key point to examine is the DPS at about 5km, where the Hyperion is running some 440 DPS and the Armageddon some 340 DPS[Real]. That type of damage advantage is seen for the Geddon at about 20km, assuming it is carrying faction x-ray.

At 2km, the Geddon is doing some 150 real DPS and the Hyperion some 375 real DPS. That type of discrepancy is not seen for lasers until 33km. Well outside the typical engagement range that we are talking about.

I repeated the comparison, but this time used an Active tanked Hyperion[Ions, single rep, single plate, 1 MFS] against a full plated passive pure EHP/DPS efficient Abaddon.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/ActHypvPassAbb.jpg

As you can see, while the Abaddon does gain faster on the Hyperion due to the Hyperion using lower tier guns, the damage that the Hyperion does in the short range utterly destroys the Abaddon. The ability to active tank and massively increased speed make this comparison for a ship to fight in smaller gangs where ranges can be expected to be lower, much favor the Hyperion.

To note: the Abaddon is using a drone config that it would not typically fit, though if each drop drones for a set of lights, the Hyperion will lose more DPS[Abaddon will go to 2.5 effective heavies, Hyperion will go to 3.2 or so effective heavies a ratio of 1.28, slightly smaller than the graphs 1.33 ratio at 4 heavies for the Hyp to 3 heavies for the Abaddon]

For laughs, i figured i would take a look at what the Passive Hyperion looked like compared to a passive Abaddon[Abaddon has 60k more EHP, about 163 vs 109 iirc a 49% increase.]

As you can see, it looks really funny[even though the ships are a lot closer together in real terms], and the EHP of the Abaddon doesn't make up the difference in DPS till about 8km.[It also shows how poor the Geddon is compared to the Abaddon as a passive tanked gank ship, despite its much better DPS against real targets

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/PassHypvAbad.jpg

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:39:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Letifer Deus

When did I say I did not understand anything you said? I understand exactly what you are saying and I am saying it is wrong. You, however, seem lost on my point which I believe is not that difficult of a concept to understand.


No you didn't understand. If you has unsterstood what I wrote, you wouldn't have answered the way you did. Your argumentation is inconsistent, incoherent and ultimately nonsensical.

There is no such a thing as balance point for each weapon system. There is a relative balance between them, which at the moment is very reasonable among 3 of the 4 existent short range weapon systems. The forth one is totally off, it is just considerably better than the other 3 in everything.

Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:41:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
People complaining about ***insert random weapon / ship here*** are simply refusing to use the advantages that are present in the ships they have which are many and varied compared to the ***insert race here*** alternative and refuse to use the systems designed to carry them through ***whatever***. That is their fault, not the ***any module***'s.


Adjusted.


Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:44:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 20:50:27
Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 20:49:17




Graph showing lasers doing high good dmg at 4km again with a IMPOSSIBLE PERFECT TRANSVERSAL. And also showing lasers out damaging blasters just under 10km.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/PassHypVGedd.jpg


Another graph showing lasers doing good dmg at 4km again with IMPOSSIBLE PERFECT TRANSVERSAL. And also showing lasers out damaging blasters under 10km.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/ActHypvPassAbb.jpg

Another graph showing lasers doing good dmg at 4km again with IMPOSSIBLE PERFECT TRANSVERSAL..

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l130/Goumindong/PassHypvAbad.jpg







Care to include overheated webs and lengthen the graphs to the full available laser range instead of expanding the lower ranges to make the lines look further apart?.

While your at it would you care to explain how its imposable to get prefect transversal and as such how the system with the lower tracking would do better at close ranges..






SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:58:00 - [72]
 

How about buffing other weapons for a change? We can't keep nerfing stuff, unless we nerf size og shield, armour and structure as well.

Otherwise we'll have ships spinning around each other for hours on end, until they run out of ammunition.

It's important for a game as EVE that some weapons, ships and systems are better than others, we need combat at different ranges, with different weapons, different ships and varying tactics.

Of course, there must not be a "pnwmobile", but if everything is nerfed to oblivion in the name of fairness, then the hole concept of specializing, or crosstraining, goes out the window.

And we'll have a new WoW.....

rgds

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 20:59:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

stuff



if your whole point is to prove that at extremelly close, against smaller targets, blasters exceed the damage of mega pulses, congratulations, you did it.

You fail to address some issues, though:

1) The Hyperion won't get near enough such smaller targets. Battlecruisers can outrun it. Both the harbinger AND the myrmidon outrange and outmaneuver the Megathron, and can stay forever out of range.

2) You cleverly make it appear in your comparison as if the Armageddon is fighting the Megathron, which is not true. If that was the case you should use BATTLESHIP SPEEDS and BATTLESHIP SIG RADIUS in the graphics, which would make the armageddon come in the top, as tracking at close range would have much less effect.

Therefore, all your long post is an irrelevant observation, about an irrelevant situation.

DukeXL
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:03:00 - [74]
 

Pulse also take more capacitor to fire, and fittings to put on your ship. Blasters have better tracking... they do considerable more dps in the 0-5km range actually...

Murina
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:09:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 21:15:29


Originally by: DukeXL
Pulse also take more capacitor to fire.


1 cap mod sorts that and blaster ships need one as well bud.


Originally by: DukeXL
Blasters have better tracking... they do considerable more dps in the 0-5km range actually...


Only against ships with high enough but not too high transversal and its from around the 2-4km range (as nobody hits at 0), now consider that lasers in some cases almost match from 5-9km out dmg from 9-30km and have no competition from 30-60km.

The transversal reliant 3km in close that blasters do a lot better than lasers is rather insignificant tbh compared to the 50+km they get owned in.....

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:18:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: DukeXL
Pulse also take more capacitor to fire, and fittings to put on your ship.


The Geddon bonus makes for the most of it, add that to the fact that its capacitor is considerably bigger than the Mega's and it ends having less problem to keep its cap stable than the Mega. And lets not even start with the Apocalypse and its huge cap...

The only amarr battleship that has cap problems is the Abaddon, which considering its damage AND resists bonii is more than understandable.

Quote:
Blasters have better tracking... they do considerable more dps in the 0-5km range actually...


As I said only against smaller ships, which they will be hard pressed to approach.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:21:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel



Funny thing about this particular trap...

1. A battlecruiser that "keeps away" from a BS is a dead battlecruiser. Smaller ships always want to be closer to larger ships with a very very few exceptions. Well, that or they want to be warping away. There is no small gang battlecruiser or cruiser in the game that has more DPS than the Gallente blaster ships at their optimal range. They all lose by going far away.

Not kidding, you're doing something wrong if you're not hugging that ship harder than something that is too inappropriate to mention on these forums.

2. No, i very clearly write "myrmidon" as the tank and list all the speeds and signature radiuses that are being compared. Saying i've "hidden" this from you is like saying that cigarettes don't have a warning label informing you of the dangers of smoking.

Now, if i was to compare a Geddon against a megathron you would actually see something much worse. Because well...

The Megathron has much more EM/Thermal EHP(in percentages as well) than a myrmidon and the tracking difference that you see in the tanks is actually exasterbated by the fact that a Megathron can exploit the fact that it has a 37.5% tracking bonus on top of its 30% tracking advantage to maximize transversal at lower ranges and increase its DPS while reducing the Armageddons.

Ironically, even though the Abaddon is a universally better ship, the megathron will do even better because the relative tracking advantage jumps from about 40% to something utterly ridiculous like 114%.

And of course the Megathron can fit a rep, mwd, injector, web, point, and neutralizer all at the same time.

Of course i was actually comparing a Hyperion because in a strict sense except a very few instances its simply a better blaster ship than the Megathron in every way. Its got an active tanking bonus which makes its tank better in the areas that blasters excel in, more base EHP, is faster, more agile, does as much or more DPS, is easier to fit via CPU, and has an extra med slot that it can use for supplimentry ewar, ECCM, or another web to entirely obviate the Megathrons real tracking and even though it won't obviate its real tracking advantage it will give it more of an ability to enforce that tracking advantage.

Anyway, basically what I am saying is that you walked into a big "ha ha" these graphs actually represent the lasers better than how they are typically going to play out in those situations you discuss so long as the blaster pilot isn't flying like a complete ponce.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:31:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 02/01/2009 21:36:32
Originally by: Etho Demerzel


The Geddon bonus makes for the most of it, add that to the fact that its capacitor is considerably bigger than the Mega's and it ends having less problem to keep its cap stable than the Mega. And lets not even start with the Apocalypse and its huge cap...

The only amarr battleship that has cap problems is the Abaddon, which considering its damage AND resists bonii is more than understandable.



Ha ha, fooled again. While the Geddon does indeed have a larger base capacitor it does not last as long because it uses much much more cap. Its more susceptible to neuts since it cannot fit a heavy injector(at least not in the fit shown there, its out of CPU and PG for one) and its still a lot less efficient than a passive Abaddon which as you can see, looks a lot worse on paper than it really is.

The difference in cap is actually less than a single 800 cap charger, which the mega can gleefully inject on its heavy injector whenever it wants while the Geddon is reloading. Case in point, stability on the Mega is 9 minutes with everything running and its 2 minutes on the Geddon.

But, tricksy again, the comparison BS there with as much EHP (found out later i can actually get 113k EHP, which is a not insignificant number higher than the Geddon) is a Hyperion, which means it's got 200 more cap rather than 300 less cap that the Mega has.

Quote:

As I said only against smaller ships, which they will be hard pressed to approach.


Not really, no. Not only do smaller ships universally want to close against battleships lest they be ****d horribly by large guns which are not burdened by the problems of tracking at these longer ranges, but the speed changes produced a net speed advantage for battleships against smaller ships so long as the battleship is going less than 30km.

We discussed this in the other thread as well. You see, while the speed changes significantly impacted the ability of smaller ships to fit range tanks(and they were range tanks, not speed tanks, they avoided BS fire by running away, not actually avoiding it), the agility increase actually increased the acceleration of battleships so much that until they've really gotten up to speed which pre QR means having traveled some 40km, they're more or less equal or advanced on the side of the QR ship.

This means that not only are you mostly faster than you were pre QR and the other guys mostly smaller pre QR but they also have an incentive to fly really close to you if they aren't instantly warping off or running around at a range that neither of you could hit them anyway. Unless you had chosen a proper medium sized gang ship and fit rails so that while you were slightly less efficient at 40km you were actually useful and utilizing the resources available to you. That seems to be too hard for many people though.

For instance you might want to look at a comparison side by side

a comparison side by side

edit: Also bonuses

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:42:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

1. A battlecruiser that "keeps away" from a BS is a dead battlecruiser. Smaller ships always want to be closer to larger ships with a very very few exceptions. Well, that or they want to be warping away. There is no small gang battlecruiser or cruiser in the game that has more DPS than the Gallente blaster ships at their optimal range. They all lose by going far away.

Not kidding, you're doing something wrong if you're not hugging that ship harder than something that is too inappropriate to mention on these forums.



You are too used to laser boats and their imbalanced range, Goum. It is very possible to keep away of blaster boats you know...

Quote:

2. No, i very clearly write "myrmidon" as the tank and list all the speeds and signature radiuses that are being compared. Saying i've "hidden" this from you is like saying that cigarettes don't have a warning label informing you of the dangers of smoking.



I am saying that phrases like "the Mega destroys the Geddon at cloge range" are a clever way to try and give the wrong impression about what you are saying.

Quote:

Now, if i was to compare a Geddon against a megathron you would actually see something much worse. Because well...

The Megathron has much more EM/Thermal EHP(in percentages as well) than a myrmidon and the tracking difference that you see in the tanks is actually exasterbated by the fact that a Megathron can exploit the fact that it has a 37.5% tracking bonus on top of its 30% tracking advantage to maximize transversal at lower ranges and increase its DPS while reducing the Armageddons.



About the resists, please, you are talkign about vanilla non hardened resists, which mean absolutely nothing. Hardened resists can be about anything.

About transversal, please show us how exactly it can keep a high transversal and a short distance at the same time with a battleship ubber maneuverability. I wait for the enlightment on this.

Quote:

Ironically, even though the Abaddon is a universally better ship, the megathron will do even better because the relative tracking advantage jumps from about 40% to something utterly ridiculous like 114%.



Only if by some magic you can keep the distance between ships low and the transversal high. Which I highly doubt. Especially because, you know, you could be webbed too...

Quote:

And of course the Megathron can fit a rep, mwd, injector, web, point, and neutralizer all at the same time.



And Ion Blasters, IF you can find enough grid.

Quote:
Hyperion x Mega stuff


Active tanking is only useful for very small gangs, like in less than 4 battleships or so. More than this and active tank is a joke. Ironically blasters became a joke at this point too, because the incapacity to focus fire.

Assuming we are tallkign about this situation (less than 4 ships in the gang), yes, the hyperion has advantages in relation to the Mega. Then again, the Mega can work in RR gangs, and the hyperion can't.

Quote:

Anyway, basically what I am saying is that you walked into a big "ha ha" these graphs actually represent the lasers better than how they are typically going to play out in those situations you discuss so long as the blaster pilot isn't flying like a complete ponce.


These graphics are a joke. Well at least half a joke. They do represent the Laser damage well, forgetting that ships that come that close will be webbed and if using MWD maybe scrambled too. On the other hand, they don't give any realistic insight about the Blaster boats, which won't ever hit the intended targets represented in the graphics unless the pilots are compeltely stupid.

Removal Tool
Unleet Industries LLC
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:45:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Removal Tool on 02/01/2009 21:47:46
I read all the comments, but I didn't see this difference mentioned: Torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruption.
So even if perfect Torp damage is rarely achievable, like wrecking shots for blaster and AC boats, it is more dependable, as long as you can stay within range. And then add that Target Painters help any other missile boats in fleet, where tracking enhancers only effect the ship it is fitted on. (*Self-correction TP's now help turrets too.)
Aside from the Fun Police, I feel the game is more balanced than it has been before.

[Edit for self-correction re: TPs)


ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:47:00 - [81]
 

I'm finding it hard to read these charts.
Any way of converting them to pie charts?

Commander Solo
Digital Fury Corporation
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.01.02 21:57:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Don't nerf lasers. Boost blasters, ffs.


Quoting King Des.

Blasters need serious attention from CCP. The web nerf just compounded the existing problems (range, tracking etc)

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:06:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

Ha ha, fooled again. While the Geddon does indeed have a larger base capacitor it does not last as long because it uses much much more cap. Its more susceptible to neuts since it cannot fit a heavy injector(at least not in the fit shown there, its out of CPU and PG for one) and its still a lot less efficient than a passive Abaddon which as you can see, looks a lot worse on paper than it really is.

The difference in cap is actually less than a single 800 cap charger, which the mega can gleefully inject on its heavy injector whenever it wants while the Geddon is reloading. Case in point, stability on the Mega is 9 minutes with everything running and its 2 minutes on the Geddon.


The stabiliy on the geddon is over 6 minutes with the right fitting, and you can use a cap booster if you want. You just have to use 2 heat sinks.

On the other hand you can't fit 3 magstabs a plate, DC 2 + 2 EANM 2, MWD AND a cap booster in a mega. It is just impossible. And just forget abotut neuts and nosfs.

Quote:

But, tricksy again, the comparison BS there with as much EHP (found out later i can actually get 113k EHP, which is a not insignificant number higher than the Geddon) is a Hyperion, which means it's got 200 more cap rather than 300 less cap that the Mega has.



In this post I was answering a comparison about mega and geddon. But yes, the Hyperion is more cap stable than the geddon and has roughly the same EHP. Unfortunatelly it still has the same problems the mega has. It is outranged AND outdamaged by the geddon, except for a very small region of 10K (being very generous) which applies only in 1v1 combat.

Considering how low the damage will be in this region by the time it makes to the geddon and manages to web it, it will have lost enough HP to make for this though, especially considering the drones damages will be much more significant at close range where both turrets will be severily handicapped by tracking.

Quote:

Not really, no. Not only do smaller ships universally want to close against battleships lest they be ****d horribly by large guns which are not burdened by the problems of tracking at these longer ranges, but the speed changes produced a net speed advantage for battleships against smaller ships so long as the battleship is going less than 30km.



You are spewing nonsense. Any smaller ship will want to stay far from a blaster battleship, because at long range blasters have absolutely no damage.

Quote:

We discussed this in the other thread as well. You see, while the speed changes significantly impacted the ability of smaller ships to fit range tanks(and they were range tanks, not speed tanks, they avoided BS fire by running away, not actually avoiding it), the agility increase actually increased the acceleration of battleships so much that until they've really gotten up to speed which pre QR means having traveled some 40km, they're more or less equal or advanced on the side of the QR ship.

This means that not only are you mostly faster than you were pre QR and the other guys mostly smaller pre QR but they also have an incentive to fly really close to you if they aren't instantly warping off or running around at a range that neither of you could hit them anyway. Unless you had chosen a proper medium sized gang ship and fit rails so that while you were slightly less efficient at 40km you were actually useful and utilizing the resources available to you. That seems to be too hard for many people though.


For instance you might want to look at a comparison side by side




You are grossely exagerating in your coclusions here. No matter how much you want to believe on it, a battlecruiser, even after the speed nerf, will be able to stay outside a blaster battleship range comfortably. As long as the pilot is not completely stupid.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:09:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel


You are too used to laser boats and their imbalanced range, Goum. It is very possible to keep away of blaster boats you know...


Run away. Not keep away. One implies you're no longer in combat. The other implies you're still dealing DPS.

Quote:

I am saying that phrases like "the Mega destroys the Geddon at cloge range" are a clever way to try and give the wrong impression about what you are saying.



Which is why i used phrases like "the mega has a 50% relative tracking advantage over the Geddon as well as the meds to fit propulsion mods and utility which give it the ability to close and maximize transversal in a way that makes the Mega destroy the Geddon"

So you knew exactly why it happened.

Quote:

About the resists, please, you are talkign about vanilla non hardened resists, which mean absolutely nothing. Hardened resists can be about anything.


Idiot hardened resists can be about anything. Efficient hardened resists are 2 eanms, 1 DC and the rest plates or reps, no exceptions except the Raven and maybe(read, probably not) Maelstrom(which can fit EM hardeners due to the large amount of slots they do not have to trade for damage mods though they clearly make other sacriices). Doesn't matter what the rest of the fit is. Hardeners are simply terrible choices unless you know exactly what you're going to be fighting, affording a pittance of EHP boost for ex/kin/thermal in exchange for a massive loss in EM.

Quote:

Only if by some magic you can keep the distance between ships low and the transversal high. Which I highly doubt. Especially because, you know, you could be webbed too...



Well, there is this thing called an MWD, a single one will propel a trimaked plated hyperion over 1200m/s towards its target in due time.

There are also these things called webs. They tend to slow people down. Interestingly enough, the Hyperion can fit 2 and an MWD and everything else that isn't a tempest has 1 or no propulsion what-so-ever.

Quote:


And Ion Blasters, IF you can find enough grid.


Easy to find grid for Ion Blasters, and the DPS drop is minimal(though the range drop kinda painful you still outrange all small gang cruisers/BC), and to boot you get a nice tracking bonus.

Quote:

Active tanking is only useful for very small gangs, like in less than 4 battleships or so. More than this and active tank is a joke. Ironically blasters became a joke at this point too, because the incapacity to focus fire.



Yup(well, kinda yup), and you shouldn't be using blaster BS in larger BS gangs like that. Just like I don't bring a pulse ship to a sniper fight and complain I don't have enough range i don't bring a blaster ship to a gang fight and complain that the gang ships are better than me. It would make me look downright foolish

Quote:

Assuming we are tallkign about this situation (less than 4 ships in the gang), yes, the hyperion has advantages in relation to the Mega. Then again, the Mega can work in RR gangs, and the hyperion can't.



Actually you want a Dominix, since its absolutely amazing in RR gangs. Lots of DPS, massive amounts of, more or less, cap stable rep, and a huge buffer tank.

Quote:

These graphics are a joke. Well at least half a joke. They do represent the Laser damage well, forgetting that ships that come that close will be webbed and if using MWD maybe scrambled too. On the other hand, they don't give any realistic insight about the Blaster boats, which won't ever hit the intended targets represented in the graphics unless the pilots are compeltely stupid.


Well, the graphs show a target not running an AB or MWD, so its actually assumed the target is scrambled and attempting to attain maximum transversal. Which means they give a pretty good insight on how blaster boats will perform, if you can understand a very basic amount about where fights start(typically around 12km) and which way they are likely to go(closer)

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:10:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Removal Tool

I read all the comments, but I didn't see this difference mentioned: Torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruption.

So even if perfect Torp damage is rarely achievable, like wrecking shots for blaster and AC boats, it is more dependable, as long as you can stay within range. And then add that Target Painters help any other missile boats in fleet, where tracking enhancers only effect the ship it is fitted on. (*Self-correction TP's now help turrets too.)
Aside from the Fun Police, I feel the game is more balanced than it has been before.

[Edit for self-correction re: TPs)




No, torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruptors, but they are vulnerable to ABs. More than turrets are to tracking duisruptors I should say.

If you intend to put tracking disruptors on your ship to directly counter turrets, the correct comparison is a similar ship with ABs to directly counter torps.

Antimony Noske
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:22:00 - [86]
 

From what I'm reading, people are complaining about blasters not being able to do more damage than lasers at long range.

So let's take that concept and run with it - blasters do more damage than lasers all the way up to say, 20km's, and then lasers start to eke ahead again.

What are the results of this hypothetical scenario going to be?

Malvorak
Amarr
The Inf1dels
En Garde
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:24:00 - [87]
 

Holy Jebus, pulses do the same damage,the same range and the same tracking they did like 2 years ago, but now they are all of a sudden overpowered!!!!!

Omg hac***xxxxx!!!!

Omg pulses out damaging blasters from 15-30k away??? Thats clearly not possible!!


Plz ccp, make blasters out damage every weapon system at every range!!!!!!





Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:28:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 02/01/2009 22:30:56
Originally by: Etho Demerzel

The stabiliy on the geddon is over 6 minutes with the right fitting, and you can use a cap booster if you want. You just have to use 2 heat sinks.

On the other hand you can't fit 3 magstabs a plate, DC 2 + 2 EANM 2, MWD AND a cap booster in a mega. It is just impossible. And just forget abotut neuts and nosfs.


Wait, so you want 3 magstabs on the Mega and 2 on the Geddon? What?

Fit for equivalency to compare or at least come close. However you would note that you can drop one EANM for an ANP and quite easily fit it. And with ions and a 1% PG implant you can get a heavy neut, lar, plate, 2 anp, DC, 2 mfs, mwd, point, and web.

Won't get the neut on the Hyp as easily but you get the rest and a second web and you can use eanms and t2 med slots.

Note: "The right fitting" does not involve a propulsion mod(at least, by my estimation, which can be wrong). I should note that the "right fitting" on a mega/hyp is cap stable with a neut on it.

Quote:

You are spewing nonsense. Any smaller ship will want to stay far from a blaster battleship, because at long range blasters have absolutely no damage.


No, they do not, this is claptrap.

At 27km, a neutron blaster battleships is hitting for 39.5% of its raw blaster DPS and still has its drones. Lets assume a hyperion since that will lower its Drone DPS slightly which should lower its overall DPS at that range pretty heavily. With 3 ogres(assume space for warriors) that 489 DPS, about 500 DPS assuming 2/2/1. Do you know a Battlecruiser that does 500 DPS at 27km? Because I sure as hell do not. Harbingers top around 450-550 depending on the amount of EHP they have at around 20-22km. And at 22km the Hyperion is doing even more.

It is not my fault you are unable to buy and load null ammunition. This isn't a documented bug, maybe you should detail your problems and submit a report.

With ions, your numbers will be a bit lower, but you're still doing 424 with 1 MFS and a rack of Ions on a Hyperion with 3 ogres. So you're still outdoing an FMP harbinger at that range.

Oh, forgot to mention. That is all before resists, so the lasers fall further and they were still pretty much top dog. Sorry, your smaller ships that try and run away and still deal DPS to you. Unless its a coordinated gang, you're screwed. And if it is a coordinated gang, you should be screwed(or killing any elements that have to come close, or leaving)

Quote:

You are grossely exagerating in your coclusions here. No matter how much you want to believe on it, a battlecruiser, even after the speed nerf, will be able to stay outside a blaster battleship range comfortably. As long as the pilot is not completely stupid.


Yea, all those stupid battlecruiser pilots fitting a tank instead of beam lasers and tracking computers in small gang warfare.

Oh, wait.

How about this, i will get on sisi with my near maxed Harbinger pilot(if the update was recently, its everything 5, spec 4, drone spec 3, DI 5). I'll fly any set that can keep you from warping and orbit at any range above 15km. You can sit still and let me orbit at the pre-determined range.

You will win every time. Handily.

ED: above 15km is mentioned because i believe there might be a point where an ABing harbinger can get an advantage underneath if the BS is not moving. Which would be pretty funny. with a blaster ship letting a target sit 2km from its web without an MWD and not even attempting to reduce tranversal.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:35:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 02/01/2009 22:43:57
Originally by: Goumindong

Run away. Not keep away. One implies you're no longer in combat. The other implies you're still dealing DPS.



Which is enough to prove my point. It is a situation that won't happen. A smaller ship won't let a blaster battleship approach. If it can manage to stay at distance and inflict damage (as drone boats or zealots) it will, otherwise it will just run.

I suppose we are still talkign 1v1 here. If not we need to consider focus fire, and in this case it is better to forget abuout blaster boats...

Quote:

Idiot hardened resists can be about anything. Efficient hardened resists are 2 eanms, 1 DC and the rest plates or reps, no exceptions except the Raven and maybe(read, probably not) Maelstrom(which can fit EM hardeners due to the large amount of slots they do not have to trade for damage mods though they clearly make other sacriices). Doesn't matter what the rest of the fit is. Hardeners are simply terrible choices unless you know exactly what you're going to be fighting, affording a pittance of EHP boost for ex/kin/thermal in exchange for a massive loss in EM.



Actually you are wrong. Power grids are not infinite, and 2 plates do not always fit, especially if you go for big guns. In these cases having a kin, a Exp and a thermal hardener is better than than 3 EANM 2. A DC II present in both cases, obviosuly.

Quote:
Well, there is this thing called an MWD, a single one will propel a trimaked plated hyperion over 1200m/s towards its target in due time.

There are also these things called webs. They tend to slow people down. Interestingly enough, the Hyperion can fit 2 and an MWD and everything else that isn't a tempest has 1 or no propulsion what-so-ever.


A MWD won't be able to keep your battleship close and with high transversal at the same time. Good lock trying to do it. Oh an no you won't get to 1200 m/s instantly either...

Quote:

Yup(well, kinda yup), and you shouldn't be using blaster BS in larger BS gangs like that. Just like I don't bring a pulse ship to a sniper fight and complain I don't have enough range i don't bring a blaster ship to a gang fight and complain that the gang ships are better than me. It would make me look downright foolish



Oh but your megapulse battleship will be a good match for a blaster boat in 1x1, and considerably superior to it in any situation from 2 to infinite ships. And teh Apocalypse can even use pulses in fleets Laughing

Quote:

Well, the graphs show a target not running an AB or MWD, so its actually assumed the target is scrambled and attempting to attain maximum transversal. Which means they give a pretty good insight on how blaster boats will perform, if you can understand a very basic amount about where fights start(typically around 12km) and which way they are likely to go(closer)


The target is running AB. Were it using MWD, webbed and scrambled it wouldn't ever reach 188 m/s, and as I said only a suicide BC would go to 12 km or closer from a blaster boat. It is pure nonsense.

Basically you have a graph that explains that ina situation that WON'T happen, the balster boats inflict more damage over small ships. And you are present it as an argument that Blasters are fine, which is absurd.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.01.02 22:43:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 02/01/2009 22:43:19
Originally by: Goumindong
Wait, so you want 3 magstabs on the Mega and 2 on the Geddon? What?


I want to fit 2 magstabs on both. But if you want 3 in your mega, be my guest, thongs will be worse for you.

Quote:

Fit for equivalency to compare or at least come close. However you would note that you can drop one EANM for an ANP and quite easily fit it. And with ions and a 1% PG implant you can get a heavy neut, lar, plate, 2 anp, DC, 2 mfs, mwd, point, and web.



And no cap booster.

Quote:

Note: "The right fitting" does not involve a propulsion mod(at least, by my estimation, which can be wrong). I should note that the "right fitting" on a mega/hyp is cap stable with a neut on it.



Your estimation is wrong:

[Armageddon, Gank]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]

Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x5


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only