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Jas Dor
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.12.27 19:33:00 - [1]
 

Faction weaponry has a higher meta level then T2 yet can not load T2 Ammo. This makes, in many situations, factions guns worse then T2. Let faction guns get bonuses for weapons type specialization and use T2 ammo, and put the skill requirements on the ammo.


Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.12.27 20:01:00 - [2]
 

I disagree. Faction items and T2 items offer the wielder a choice: he either goes for more damage without the need to specialize in T2, but gives up the ammo, while the T2 user does the exact opposite: he uses cheaper weapons, but has to skill train significantly more and is given the opportunity to use the T2 ammo.

Allowing faction to extend further with the t2 skills and ammo would be breaking the game.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.27 20:35:00 - [3]
 

specialization skills take 15 minutes to train.

The ammo isn't exactly "special snowflake" ammo like bombs, its mainstream. And pretty much what you should be loaded with at the start of most engagements[t2 long range]

The cost difference between faction guns and tech 2 guns should not be training, but scarcity.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.28 09:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
specialization skills take 15 minutes to train.

The ammo isn't exactly "special snowflake" ammo like bombs, its mainstream. And pretty much what you should be loaded with at the start of most engagements[t2 long range]

The cost difference between faction guns and tech 2 guns should not be training, but scarcity.


Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.

It is pretty ridicule to ask to boost faction weapons when T2, that is theoretically the top quality mainstream weaponry, is generally on par or worse than meta level 4 weapons if you don't consider the specialization effect.

Increasing even more the gap giving not T2 weapons the advantages of the specializations skills and special ammunitions would make the T2 weapons pactically useless.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.12.28 11:31:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Goumindong
specialization skills take 15 minutes to train.

The ammo isn't exactly "special snowflake" ammo like bombs, its mainstream. And pretty much what you should be loaded with at the start of most engagements[t2 long range]

The cost difference between faction guns and tech 2 guns should not be training, but scarcity.


Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.

It is pretty ridicule to ask to boost faction weapons when T2, that is theoretically the top quality mainstream weaponry, is generally on par or worse than meta level 4 weapons if you don't consider the specialization effect.

Increasing even more the gap giving not T2 weapons the advantages of the specializations skills and special ammunitions would make the T2 weapons pactically useless.



/signed with venkul

since faction weapons are now farmable with LP stores, scarcity is not possible as it's ridiculously easy to get them though it takes a while (pirate ones you can't farm in empire but they have their empire faction equivalents).

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.12.28 12:07:00 - [6]
 

What gave you the idea that t2 is supposed to be better then Faction?
All faction items including guns are equal or better then t2, as well as alot more expensive.

I honestly dont see a reason why faction guns cant use t2 ammo, a pity really wed see alot more interesting setups.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.28 12:11:00 - [7]
 

only weird thing about faction weapons is that all faction missile launchers are better than maxskilled t2 (damage and fitting wise) wheras all faction guns are worse than t2 skilled guns (think at lvl3 or 4 of spec t2 gun deals more damage). Inconsistent.

Xailz
Godless Horizon.
Nomads Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 20:17:00 - [8]
 

Faction guns get better CPU usage and lose a little bit of DPS (Like 4 dps or something silly) That's based on max skills and Amarr Navy Ammo, seems perfectly fine to me.

Xailz

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.28 20:32:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Xailz
Faction guns get better CPU usage and lose a little bit of DPS (Like 4 dps or something silly) That's based on max skills and Amarr Navy Ammo, seems perfectly fine to me.

Xailz


Yup. Why not lose some CPU and grid usage and GAIN some DPS too while you are at it - exactly like faction launchers do it.

Point is - if you can use t2 guns - you will always use t2 before faction. When it comes to missile launchers if you plan on NPCing you will want to use faction ones (unless using sieges for missions - then t2 for javelins).

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.28 21:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.


Yes, they do. Spec 1 in any size requires ~15 minutes. Tops a week if you have to train the whole gamut.

Now, if you're saying that everything from weapon 3 to 5 is the "prerequisite" i would say that the extra 10-15% damage boost you get from the skills is compensation enough.

Quote:
It is pretty ridicule to ask to boost faction weapons when T2, that is theoretically the top quality mainstream weaponry, is generally on par or worse than meta level 4 weapons if you don't consider the specialization effect.


Its pretty ridiculous to think that top meta level items are "mainstream" or that faction items are or would be after such a change.

Its also pretty ridiculous to assume that "t2 should be the top quality mainstream weaponry".

Quote:

Increasing even more the gap giving not T2 weapons the advantages of the specializations skills and special ammunitions would make the T2 weapons pactically useless.


No, it would not.

There is a lot to be said about availability. And faction guns and high meta levels guns are very much not available. Just take a look at the Jita prices for high quality best named guns compared to tech 2.

Or hell, Rens. Modulated Tachyons, Bulk price [50], need to go 4 jumps and you're paying 8.5m isk. Tech 2 Tachyons, Bulk Price[150] need to go 0 jumps and you're paying 4m isk.

Just for the best named guns right now you're paying twice as much. You think they are going to get cheaper if they are able to fit tech 2 ammo? They still will be strictly worse because they don't get specialization bonuses. But even if they did you would still be looking at tech 2 being the mainstream simply because of cost.

You think faction guns are going to be mainstream? Currently faction tachyons run about 80m isk+. You think they're going to be "mainstream" if they get better, demand increases, and the price goes up?

On the whole, i think its pretty ridiculous that there are no guns you can fit that are better than tech 2 in pvp. And i don't mean "no guns until you get to top quality faction and officer" i mean no guns. Tech 2 long range ammo is too valuable.

xVx dreadnaught
Caldari
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2008.12.28 21:14:00 - [11]
 

The trade off is damage for skills and fittings. Taking Factioned weapons/items are usually easier on the fitting req... Which can be handy when your struggling to fit everything on. Also if you're planning on flying a BS in fleet and heven't spent the weeks that it takes to learn all the skills to use T2.

T2 is elitist making sure they can squeeze every last ounce of damage out of there setup. But they may have a problem with the rest of there setup.

Also T2 can be produced by players, Different factioned stuff neds to be farmed (missions) or NPC's

Oh and T2 Ammo have drawbacks to them, Factioned don't.

Xailz
Godless Horizon.
Nomads Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 21:27:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Xailz
Faction guns get better CPU usage and lose a little bit of DPS (Like 4 dps or something silly) That's based on max skills and Amarr Navy Ammo, seems perfectly fine to me.

Xailz


Yup. Why not lose some CPU and grid usage and GAIN some DPS too while you are at it - exactly like faction launchers do it.

Point is - if you can use t2 guns - you will always use t2 before faction. When it comes to missile launchers if you plan on NPCing you will want to use faction ones (unless using sieges for missions - then t2 for javelins).


Actually Missile do not gain DPS by switching to faction (Unless you don't have decent skills like 1 DPS difference with spec 4) and that is using the best Faction Ammo and that is really really expensive and rare.

So both Missiles and Guns are the same, from what i see.

Xailz

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.28 21:30:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:32:01
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:31:35
Oh yes they do.

Maxskilled (that is spec lv5) t2 launchers do less damage (over time) than dread guristas/caldari navy ones using same ammo.

and for comparison:

maxskilled (spec5) t2 guns do more damage than faction ones (in your example amarr navy tachs/megapulses).

So yes - faction launchers are better than t2, faction guns are worse (DPS wise).
Rest is the same (in comparison to t2).

Xailz
Godless Horizon.
Nomads Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.28 21:37:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Xailz on 28/12/2008 21:47:35
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:32:01
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:31:35
Oh yes they do.

Maxskilled (that is spec lv5) t2 launchers do less damage (over time) than dread guristas/caldari navy ones using same ammo.

and for comparison:

maxskilled (spec5) t2 guns do more damage than faction ones (in your example amarr navy tachs/megapulses).

So yes - faction launchers are better than t2, faction guns are worse (DPS wise).
Rest is the same (in comparison to t2).


k 1 DPS with the same Ammo (based on Heavy Launchers)

With T2 you get better damage

Only difference then is that Faction guns get less Damage when faction ammo is used where as Launchers gain

Alot more damage to be found in guns anyway as it is and the Damage difference is minute

seems fair to me

EDIT: misunderstood meaning for a second reply changed

Xailz

KustoMKilleR
Freddy Mercury Revival Group
Posted - 2008.12.29 03:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.

Yes, they do. Spec 1 in any size requires ~15 minutes. Tops a week if you have to train the whole gamut.


you sir are a moron. if you are stating that it takes 15 minutes to train for Large T2 guns then i laugh in your face. even a week is ridiculous. it can take up to 60-70 days to train for large T2 turrets. if you are talking small turrets, then who in there right minds fits a frig with faction guns, i mean honestly. the only people we would normally be seeing with Faction guns on a ship would be BS and maybe BC if the owner is loaded.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.29 03:59:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: KustoMKilleR
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.

Yes, they do. Spec 1 in any size requires ~15 minutes. Tops a week if you have to train the whole gamut.


you sir are a moron. if you are stating that it takes 15 minutes to train for Large T2 guns then i laugh in your face. even a week is ridiculous. it can take up to 60-70 days to train for large T2 turrets. if you are talking small turrets, then who in there right minds fits a frig with faction guns, i mean honestly. the only people we would normally be seeing with Faction guns on a ship would be BS and maybe BC if the owner is loaded.



:roll:

Did you not read the part that came right after that that said "if you're talking about skilling to 5..."

Training tech 2 large guns does take a long time. But most of that time is spent increasing your ability to shoot large guns. I.E. the difference between faction large guns and t2 large guns is not large turret 5, its large spec 1.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.29 09:14:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: KustoMKilleR
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Prerequisites don't require 15 minutes.

Yes, they do. Spec 1 in any size requires ~15 minutes. Tops a week if you have to train the whole gamut.


you sir are a moron. if you are stating that it takes 15 minutes to train for Large T2 guns then i laugh in your face. even a week is ridiculous. it can take up to 60-70 days to train for large T2 turrets. if you are talking small turrets, then who in there right minds fits a frig with faction guns, i mean honestly. the only people we would normally be seeing with Faction guns on a ship would be BS and maybe BC if the owner is loaded.



:roll:

Did you not read the part that came right after that that said "if you're talking about skilling to 5..."

Training tech 2 large guns does take a long time. But most of that time is spent increasing your ability to shoot large guns. I.E. the difference between faction large guns and t2 large guns is not large turret 5, its large spec 1.


technicaly it's the bundled support skills/smaller guns that take time. in case of t1 large guns, having large to 5 is enough and you don't need the small/med t2 prereqs for that ... however you need them for large t2 ...

training larget t2 spec to 1 while having large t1 5 will NOT enable you to use large t2 guns ...

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.29 09:52:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka


technicaly it's the bundled support skills/smaller guns that take time. in case of t1 large guns, having large to 5 is enough and you don't need the small/med t2 prereqs for that ... however you need them for large t2 ...

training larget t2 spec to 1 while having large t1 5 will NOT enable you to use large t2 guns ...


nor would it allow you to use t2 ammo ;)

Jas Dor
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.12.29 16:40:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Jas Dor on 29/12/2008 16:41:46
Edited by: Jas Dor on 29/12/2008 16:41:28
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:32:01
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:31:35
Oh yes they do.

Maxskilled (that is spec lv5) t2 launchers do less damage (over time) than dread guristas/caldari navy ones using same ammo.

and for comparison:

maxskilled (spec5) t2 guns do more damage than faction ones (in your example amarr navy tachs/megapulses).

So yes - faction launchers are better than t2, faction guns are worse (DPS wise).
Rest is the same (in comparison to t2).


T2 ammo is required to shoot out to 165+km in a fleet fight. If you don't have T2 ammo you don't have a sniper.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.29 17:08:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jas Dor
Edited by: Jas Dor on 29/12/2008 16:41:46
Edited by: Jas Dor on 29/12/2008 16:41:28
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:32:01
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/12/2008 21:31:35
Oh yes they do.

Maxskilled (that is spec lv5) t2 launchers do less damage (over time) than dread guristas/caldari navy ones using same ammo.

and for comparison:

maxskilled (spec5) t2 guns do more damage than faction ones (in your example amarr navy tachs/megapulses).

So yes - faction launchers are better than t2, faction guns are worse (DPS wise).
Rest is the same (in comparison to t2).


T2 ammo is required to shoot out to 165+km in a fleet fight. If you don't have T2 ammo you don't have a sniper.


rokh, apoc, nuff said

Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.12.29 20:02:00 - [21]
 

and here i thought i found a thread about how some t2 ammo is awesome and the rest sucks.

But to stay on topic, Here is why T2 Weapons do more damage. From one of my random non combat alts:

To use the most expensive faction/officer large blaster: 8d 10h
To use T2 Large blasters: 100d 19H

Nuff' Said

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.12.29 21:16:00 - [22]
 

officer blasters deal more damage than t2 (not sure about low-end officers but high-end ones surely)

so? :)

xVx dreadnaught
Caldari
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2008.12.31 13:43:00 - [23]
 

whats the next step? officer ammo? that would be awesom (drawback you need to fit it into an officer weapon) And while your using it every shot is the sound of a cash drawr going kaching, kaching, kaching.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.31 15:16:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Venkul Mul

It is pretty ridicule to ask to boost faction weapons when T2, that is theoretically the top quality mainstream weaponry, is generally on par or worse than meta level 4 weapons if you don't consider the specialization effect.


Its pretty ridiculous to think that top meta level items are "mainstream" or that faction items are or would be after such a change.

Its also pretty ridiculous to assume that "t2 should be the top quality mainstream weaponry".



Christ, Gouming, you don't even read the quotes you cite?

When meta 4 items have become top meta level? They are top named items and for guns they are normally better than T2 if you don't consider the specialization skill.

So if T2 is not top mainstream weaponry, where mainstream stop for you? Meta 0 T1?
Named? empire faction items that can be brought in LP store?

You ever know what "mainstream" mean?

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2009.01.02 08:19:00 - [25]
 

I'm sorry, but this just ended up looking like another

"hey, X item isn't like Y item~!! Nerf X to bring it in line!"

and even if that's not what you mean, that's where threads like this lead. Just like the people who said that missiles aren't like guns (now torps and HAMs are blaster clones).

Listen, there are many items that are different. They're made that way. Differences are good because that means we have choices.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 08:57:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Christ, Gouming, you don't even read the quotes you cite?

When meta 4 items have become top meta level? They are top named items and for guns they are normally better than T2 if you don't consider the specialization skill.

So if T2 is not top mainstream weaponry, where mainstream stop for you? Meta 0 T1?
Named? empire faction items that can be brought in LP store?

You ever know what "mainstream" mean?



Sorry, i thought it was pretty obvious i was referring to best named items. My bad.

As for "top mainstream weaponry". Either you define "mainstream" such that it only encompasses a single item or you can have varying levels of consumption being defined as "mainstream". While the trading numbers of best named items are not to the level of tech 2, they are sufficient to be considered "mainstream". Just as faction navy ammo is considered to be "mainstream".

The "Its also pretty ridiculous to assume that 't2 should be the top quality mainstream weaponry'." comment was regarding an assumption that tech 2 items must be the "best" of for some strange reason. Especially when in eve, item quality typically scales with scarcity.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.01.02 08:59:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael

Listen, there are many items that are different. They're made that way. Differences are good because that means we have choices.


And no one is asking for differences to not be good, they are asking that more scare items are not made obsolete by more common items.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2009.01.02 11:52:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 02/01/2009 11:54:00
Edited by: Random Womble on 02/01/2009 11:53:23
The problem is due to T2 ammo faction long range guns are now pretty much pointless due to the low DPS and lower range with max range T1 or faction ammo (carb lead for example) vs the long range T2 ammo and this even applys somewhat to autocannons or pulse lasers with barrage/scorch.

Letting Faction guns use T2 ammo does make some sense as things stand otherwise i would suggest making faction ammo useable by faction or officer guns only and not by every gun then give them some bonuses similar to T2 with perhaps less drawbacks. Most people would complain at that since how many of you use short range facton ammo in your T2 guns? So seems fair to me that faction guns should be able to use T2 ammo.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.01.02 12:13:00 - [29]
 

T2 ammo should be usable in all guns IMO.


 

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