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Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.19 02:29:00 - [1]
 

There's been quite a few troll threads demanding CCP to release the names of all parties involved in the POS exploit. These threads all have lots of responses, yet thumbs up supports rarely break single digit numbers and are mostly alts.

So I guess let's create an anti-name-naming thread. I believe CCP should not name the people involved for the following reasons:

1) A CCP name list will not restore, destroy, or otherwise affect the market.
2) Nobody has anything to gain or lose by knowing who was involved.
3) A list of names does not change what happened.
4) Despite what a handful of trolls may have claimed, the CSMs are neither responsible for what happened nor have any interest in creating more drama.
5) CCP does not yet have all the facts regarding the matter.

And most importantly:
6) Such a list serves no other purpose except to fuel trolls.


Say no to troll fuel.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.

Posted - 2008.12.19 03:04:00 - [2]
 

I agree with what you said. I also believe that CCP has every right to not release thin information if they so choose. If they do decide to release then information I do not think that it will have any bearing on how things proceed with the game.


Slade

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.19 03:15:00 - [3]
 

As a CSM, I support this matter.

Darwin's Market
Posted - 2008.12.19 03:27:00 - [4]
 

It is CCP's policy not to reveal exploiters' names, why do you bother with a thread? They won't reveal it, it's long confirmed.

Drama is also what fuels the more interesting members of our community, the ones that make the headlines. It's not carebears or miners that advertise Eve Online.

Top Trader
Posted - 2008.12.19 03:58:00 - [5]
 

This thread is very suspicious.

Hiding the truth only serves the guilty. Are you one of them?

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.19 04:09:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Top Trader
This thread is very suspicious.

Hiding the truth only serves the guilty. Are you one of them?
lol, no troll fuel for you. And this really is my main.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.12.19 04:11:00 - [7]
 

This is irrelevant.

CCP has a long standing policy of privacy and they won't break with that.

Privacy rights aren't something you just throw away when they're inconvenient.

Top Trader
Posted - 2008.12.19 04:20:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black
Originally by: Top Trader
This thread is very suspicious.

Hiding the truth only serves the guilty. Are you one of them?
lol, no troll fuel for you. And this really is my main.


I am not trying to troll anybody. Mine was a fair question and your attitude, calling names, is lamentable.

Are you guilty? Because I see no motive to start a topic like this if you are not.

PS This toon is two months old, this is not your main account.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.19 04:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Top Trader
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Originally by: Top Trader
This thread is very suspicious.

Hiding the truth only serves the guilty. Are you one of them?
lol, no troll fuel for you. And this really is my main.


I am not trying to troll anybody. Mine was a fair question and your attitude, calling names, is lamentable.

Are you guilty? Because I see no motive to start a topic like this if you are not.

PS This toon is two months old, this is not your main account.
Yes, this toon is indeed about two months old and yes it really is my main. It may be hard to comprehend, but this game does have new players.

Top Trader
Posted - 2008.12.19 05:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black
Yes, this toon is indeed about two months old and yes it really is my main. It may be hard to comprehend, but this game does have new players.


Either you are a two months old player who has a strong interest in hiding the identities of very old characters in very old corps you barely know, or you are a very old player lying to us. Call me paranoid but I bet in the second option.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.19 05:30:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cyprus Black on 19/12/2008 05:38:37
Originally by: Top Trader
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Yes, this toon is indeed about two months old and yes it really is my main. It may be hard to comprehend, but this game does have new players.


Either you are a two months old player who has a strong interest in hiding the identities of very old characters in very old corps you barely know, or you are a very old player lying to us. Call me paranoid but I bet in the second option.
Well, aright then. You're a very paranoid troll looking for fuel and not getting it.

And I will not argue with you anymore. Anyone who thinks privacy protectors are hiding something has no real point. Your trolling intentions are obvious.

Top Trader
Posted - 2008.12.19 06:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black
Edited by: Cyprus Black on 19/12/2008 05:38:37
Originally by: Top Trader
Originally by: Cyprus Black
Yes, this toon is indeed about two months old and yes it really is my main. It may be hard to comprehend, but this game does have new players.


Either you are a two months old player who has a strong interest in hiding the identities of very old characters in very old corps you barely know, or you are a very old player lying to us. Call me paranoid but I bet in the second option.
Well, aright then. You're a very paranoid troll looking for fuel and not getting it.

And I will not argue with you anymore. Anyone who thinks privacy protectors are hiding something has no real point. Your trolling intentions are obvious.


In which way am I a troll? I disagreed with you and questioned your motives, and for the second time you failed in defending your point of view and making your motives clear. Instead you opted to call me a troll yet again...

Revealing characters' names has nothing to do with privacy. Privacy is a concept that applies to people not fictitious characters. Eve characters are CCP's property, especially now that the owners are banned. Whose privacy do you want to protect? The players? Unless CCP decides to post the players' names nobody will know who they are.

The only believable explanation is that your main is associated with the cheaters, and you don't want people prodding at you and your business because you have something to hide.

Phelix Jung
Born-2-Kill
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2008.12.19 06:19:00 - [13]
 

Lol, what an obvious troll thread.

Delfin Dawn
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2008.12.19 07:26:00 - [14]
 

I do not want the playrs names, I am more or less happy with them being band. I would like the names of corps nowingly involved, I would like to know this for bisness reasons. I quite simply would like to not do bisness with them.

Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.12.19 09:15:00 - [15]
 

While each of your reasons is sound, there is one very good reason why a Name And Shame would be a good idea.

As a Deterrant. If, in future, a similar exploit was found would you risk using it knowing that when it was discovered You, Your Corp and your Alliance would all be publicly Named? In fact, if you found out that your Corp or Alliance was using such an exploit, would you stay silent, knowing that your Corp's and Alliance's Name would be publically dragged through the mud once the Exploit became public knowledge? I know I wouldn't be willing to do that. Mind you, I wouldn't have been willing to Cheat in the first place all that would do is remove the challenge from the game and at that point, what's the point in playing? It would be no fun anymore.

Or would you, instead, properly report the exploit and not touch it with a 10 foot Pole, thus keeping you, your Corp and your Alliance free of the stain of being labelled Cheaters?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.19 09:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Top Trader

In which way am I a troll? I disagreed with you and questioned your motives, and for the second time you failed in defending your point of view and making your motives clear. Instead you opted to call me a troll yet again...



When you started using ad hominem attacks from your first post in this thread.

She posted her motives and and point of view in her first post. You decided you don't like them and that is ok, but then you decided to confute them using baseless accusations and personal attack instead of confuting the argument.

That make you a troll.

For the OP: supported

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.19 09:49:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre
While each of your reasons is sound, there is one very good reason why a Name And Shame would be a good idea.

As a Deterrant. If, in future, a similar exploit was found would you risk using it knowing that when it was discovered You, Your Corp and your Alliance would all be publicly Named? In fact, if you found out that your Corp or Alliance was using such an exploit, would you stay silent, knowing that your Corp's and Alliance's Name would be publically dragged through the mud once the Exploit became public knowledge? I know I wouldn't be willing to do that. Mind you, I wouldn't have been willing to Cheat in the first place all that would do is remove the challenge from the game and at that point, what's the point in playing? It would be no fun anymore.

Or would you, instead, properly report the exploit and not touch it with a 10 foot Pole, thus keeping you, your Corp and your Alliance free of the stain of being labelled Cheaters?


Interesting argument, but there are some logic fallacies in it.

1) Your deterrent work the other way: if I did know of someone using an exploit in my corp/alliance if the effect of reporting the exploit would be to get my corp/alliance named and shamed I would be less willing to report, not more. I would be willing to try to stop him and even expell him from the corp/alliance, but not to report him as it will damage my corp/alliance. So the deterrent woudl have exactly the opposite effect of what you are seeking to accomplish.

2) Naming and shaming would damage a whole corp/alliance for the action of one player. How many players will get an alt in a enemy corp/alliance and then purposefully exploit in a blatant way, reporting the exploit so that the enemy alliance get the blame? Don't say no one as we know that metaplay plots and alt sabotage are common in EVE.



Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.12.19 10:28:00 - [18]
 

Unfortunately, Yes. that is one possible Scenario.

However, in the first case, that would be an effective sanction. You find someone using an Exploit in your Corp/Alliance then you cut them loose as soon as you're aware that they're doing it. Then you contact CCP and tell them that this Character had been doing this, that your Corp/Alliance wants nothing to do with this Exploit. At that point, CCP is aware that you have done everything in your power to bring this to their attention and so it's Only the Character that's Named and Shamed, not the Corp or Alliance.

If, however, you do find out about it and fail to act then by your inaction you're effectively supporting the Exploiter in his Actions and should Face the consequences of that action.

Where this falls down is when A Character is using an exploit in such a way that it's obvious that Multiple people had to have known, but that those in Power in the Corp weren't aware of what was going on. If the exploit is done in such a way that only the Exploiter Benefits then it's harder for the Corporation to know whats going on.

As to the idea of an Alt Spy coming in and doing an Exploit to get an Alliance or Corp into trouble, I assume that, while you don't necessarily heavily Vet every person coming in, you do carefully screen those who could get into a position to be able to do this as it would be very difficult to pull off without Roles in a Corp/Alliance. That, and the Spy always runs the risk that the Exploit would be discovered by the Corp/Alliance that he's infiltrated and be cut adrift. At that point, Investigations could link his Alt to his Main and lead to his Mains Alliance being Sanctioned instead.

-----

In Truth, there's no easy answer to any of this. All I gave was a possible Scenario, the details would still need to be hammered out.

Ezekyle Rahl
Minmatar
Republic University

Posted - 2008.12.19 11:43:00 - [19]
 

Supported

Midnighter
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.19 11:47:00 - [20]
 

Release the real names of all the whiners!

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.12.19 12:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black


Say no to troll fuel.

I say no Cool

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.12.19 12:53:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 19/12/2008 12:55:45
I am sorry, NO.

You are an apologist from the NPC corp. So, you are an ALT of someone.
I will not claim Ev0ke. Or any other involved entity, but, let people draw their own conclusions.

1) Post with your main.
2) Do not excuse inexcusable behavior.
3) CSM is there to represent players, not a player, so how do you presume to say that CSM is not interested? Are you disguised CSM?
4) And to CSM who voted in this silly, and insulting thread, ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENED? Because I understand not being interested in drama, but the way OP has phrased it, it can be inferred he wants you not to be interested at ALL.

I agree on:

CCP Does not have all information yet - but they will soon enough, one can hope.
We should give CCP some time, provided they give as detailed account as possible about what happened. Since last thing I want to do is compete with players who have gained unfair advantage.


Best of luck in your apologist campaign.





Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.12.19 13:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 19/12/2008 13:05:04
Originally by: Venkul Mul
...stuff...


Venkul, are you close with anyone at CCP or something?

Most people are calling for disclosure in the most egregious of cases, not for every silly infraction players may be accused of. And all are calling for the disclosure in THIS PARTICULAR case, no one said anything about future cases.

The size of exploit is too big to ignore, and it benefited too many 0.0 Alliances, and yea I do want to know who benefited.
Because if I see the Alliance, Corporation, People involved, destroyed - then I will see that CCP does it job, rather they tell me they do their jobs.

Also, I want other questions answered, how members of Ev0ke knew ahead of time that their accounts will be banned, before the CCP announcements - where in CCP did the leak come from?


Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.12.19 16:54:00 - [24]
 

Cyprus Black is most likely the alt of a CSM member. I find it very likely that its main is one of the two CSM that are vocal in this subject. Which is really pytiful.

Anyways, my vote is abviously no.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.19 16:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Cyprus Black on 19/12/2008 17:21:23
Originally by: Jinx Barker

4) And to CSM who voted in this silly, and insulting thread, ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENED? Because I understand not being interested in drama, but the way OP has phrased it, it can be inferred he wants you not to be interested at ALL.
Funny thing about personal interpretation, it can be "inferred" in many ways to meet the point of anyone who has one. Just as I question your motives for wanting a witch hunting list, you question my motives for advocating privacy protection.

And I'm secretly a CSM in hiding now? How many theories is that so far? It went from secretly being one of the parties involved who got banned, to secretly being a CCP representative, to secretly being an alt, to secretly making a fortune from this exploit, and now secretly being a CSM. Rolling Eyes Wow, what's next? I'm secretly Batman?

Desperation is obvious when trolls are throwing anything and everything at the wall to see what sticks. More crackpot theories please. I find them hysterical.






















(and I really am Batman)

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:10:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/12/2008 17:10:15
Hell yes.... everyone should STFU and get on with there lives.

This is a game for cryin out loud... CCP punished the exploiters... enough is enough.

/signed emphatically.

Ticondrius
United Federation Starfleet
Saints Amongst Sinners
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:21:00 - [27]
 

It would certainly be nice to know BoB isn't the only one getting "dev help" from the rumor mongers.

Gee...CCP told everyone who t20 helped out...come on, release the bloody list!!

Anne Archer
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:24:00 - [28]
 

Name them

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.12.19 17:48:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black
There's been quite a few troll threads demanding CCP to release the names of all parties involved in the POS exploit. These threads all have lots of responses, yet thumbs up supports rarely break single digit numbers and are mostly alts.

So I guess let's create an anti-name-naming thread. I believe CCP should not name the people involved for the following reasons:

1) A CCP name list will not restore, destroy, or otherwise affect the market.
2) Nobody has anything to gain or lose by knowing who was involved.
3) A list of names does not change what happened.
4) Despite what a handful of trolls may have claimed, the CSMs are neither responsible for what happened nor have any interest in creating more drama.
5) CCP does not yet have all the facts regarding the matter.

And most importantly:
6) Such a list serves no other purpose except to fuel trolls.


Say no to troll fuel.


You're trying so hard to not get have the names revealed, I thought back in that other thread that you probably have something to hide...

I love the way that anyone who you disagree with are trolls. Rolling Eyes

Doonoo Boonoo
Posted - 2008.12.19 18:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Squirrrel
Originally by: Cyprus Black
There's been quite a few troll threads demanding CCP to release the names of all parties involved in the POS exploit. These threads all have lots of responses, yet thumbs up supports rarely break single digit numbers and are mostly alts.

So I guess let's create an anti-name-naming thread. I believe CCP should not name the people involved for the following reasons:

1) A CCP name list will not restore, destroy, or otherwise affect the market.
2) Nobody has anything to gain or lose by knowing who was involved.
3) A list of names does not change what happened.
4) Despite what a handful of trolls may have claimed, the CSMs are neither responsible for what happened nor have any interest in creating more drama.
5) CCP does not yet have all the facts regarding the matter.

And most importantly:
6) Such a list serves no other purpose except to fuel trolls.


Say no to troll fuel.


You're trying so hard to not get have the names revealed, I thought back in that other thread that you probably have something to hide...

I love the way that anyone who you disagree with are trolls. Rolling Eyes

I love the way that anyone who disagrees with you and your friends is involved in exploiting. Accusing people of exploiting without proof are the actions of trolls not concerned players. GTFO and +1 support.


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