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Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 15:47:00 - [1]
 

So I've been looking up job wanted ads, and it seems that for most specializations you really don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java. Is that really the case? I'm going for a career in database developer (SQL/oracle) specialized work.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:01:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Reaver Babe
[...]don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java[...]

You really can't compare the demand for 5-star gourmet chefs with the demand for fast-food employees Twisted Evil
And yes I did just compare the level of expertise required by most "software companies" with that of the guy asking "would you like fries with that"...

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:06:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Reaver Babe
[...]don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java[...]

You really can't compare the demand for 5-star gourmet chefs with the demand for fast-food employees Twisted Evil
And yes I did just compare the level of expertise required by most "software companies" with that of the guy asking "would you like fries with that"...

Those who agree Akita won the forums for today say Aye.Surprised

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Reaver Babe
[...]don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java[...]

You really can't compare the demand for 5-star gourmet chefs with the demand for fast-food employees Twisted Evil
And yes I did just compare the level of expertise required by most "software companies" with that of the guy asking "would you like fries with that"...



While your logic makes sense, I've been searching the job postings for my area and I can't find a single thing asking for anything beyond VB/C#/java except for specialized contract work or positions that require at least 5 years of experience anyway. Most of these jobs promise upwards of $50k a year to start with little experience needed.

Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:08:00 - [5]
 

This may be partly ignorance of how the programming job market works - but it occurs to me that with the internets you could work for anyone in the world from the same place you are writing on these forums at the moment.... ugh

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:10:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 15/12/2008 16:17:05
Originally by: Reaver Babe
Most of these jobs promise upwards of $50k a year to start with little experience needed.

And usually entail 12 hours a day, 6 days a week's worth of work AFTER you get your act together Razz
Bottom line, the high-tech version of a sweatshop "employee".

We had companies in the area that had this type of hiring practice : get people with minimal experience hired at what could be regarded as decent wages for a normal workday, make them work their asses off and then some (and NOT pay what was promised anyway until later on), and dump them in 2-3 years when they start complaining about low wages and abysmal work hours (keep only the topmost people, if even that much), lather, rinse and repeat.

That's the modern IT world for you...
50++% of the time, you will waste your time working on absurd customer demands anyway, 10% of the time it's getting shouted at by your superiors, and most of the rest of the time simply waiting for somebody else to finish something else you need to proceed (or await approval to continue).
I mean, seriously, how much programming knowledge do you need to code a ticket dispensing system or a shopping site ?

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Reaver Babe
Most of these jobs promise upwards of $50k a year to start with little experience needed.

And usually entail 12 hours a day, 6 days a week's worth of work AFTER you get your act together Razz
Bottom line, the high-tech version of a sweatshop "employee".



Well then here's my dilemma. Due to reasons involving work schedule and kids, I can't go to a "real" college that offers full CS to earn my degree. So I'm going to a technical school that can accomodate my oddball schedule for a BS that should come close (CIS). As part of my curriculum I have to take 3 programming classes and I'm trying to decide what to take them in.

1. Intro to programming (choose C++, C#, or vb.net)

2. Business application programming (choose java or cobol)

3. object oriented programming (choose java, c++, or c#)

I'm trying to specialize in database development curriculum cause thats the area I want to get into (though I know straight out of school I'll take whatever I can get).

Not sure which programming languages to choose, though I know I'll probably need java more than anything else.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:21:00 - [8]
 

Programming languages work on a "FOTY" schedule (or, at most 2 years).
Learn "whatever" OO since you'll have to switch to some other soon enough anyway, but odds are pretty damned good it'll be heavily OO anyway.
Newer OO programming language -> ever crappier quality code, ever higher end-user-deliverable throughput -> business win.

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:25:00 - [9]
 

My original plan was to take C# for intro, then java for both business app and OO and learn whatever else by taking classes here and there outside of school after i graduate or studying up at home. but a good friend of mine is saying i should probably take c++ for intro even though i'll likely never use it, especially if i work in databases. so now i'm not sure.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:29:00 - [10]
 

Another hint : whatever you learn in school is pretty much worth the paper the degree is printed on Twisted Evil
The only reason to have the degree is so you can wave it in front of an employer to get a better starter package, and that's about the extent of its use.

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Another hint : whatever you learn in school is pretty much worth the paper the degree is printed on Twisted Evil
The only reason to have the degree is so you can wave it in front of an employer to get a better starter package, and that's about the extent of its use.



good to know. I do however plan on learning the bulk of my starter programming knowledge and SQL knowledge from school. Not saying it's all I'll know, but it'll be my "base to build on" so to speak.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:37:00 - [12]
 

Well, if your programming skills are pretty much zero, then any kind of classes would be good for you.
The major drawback I see in people "coding" nowadays is a complete lack of the basics (i.e. math and algorythms), they just "know programming language X" and learn by rote example/sample application. I guess you don't really have to understand what you're doing to code something that resembles the output of a physical assembly line.
Past that, there's no substitute for hands-on experience.

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.15 16:43:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Well, if your programming skills are pretty much zero, then any kind of classes would be good for you.
The major drawback I see in people "coding" nowadays is a complete lack of the basics (i.e. math and algorythms), they just "know programming language X" and learn by rote example/sample application. I guess you don't really have to understand what you're doing to code something that resembles the output of a physical assembly line.
Past that, there's no substitute for hands-on experience.



The extent of my programming language comes from getting halfway through a "teach yourself VB in 21 days" book that I ended up throwing out because a typo in the book got me so frustrated I was ready to throw it. Which is to say, I have programming language knowledge that is equivalent to a learning motorcycle rider who finally managed to start the damn thing without stalling it.

Anyway, I don't intend on being a pure coder, like I mentioned I'm trying to aim myself toward database administration/development with things like SQL oriented work.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.12.15 19:35:00 - [14]
 

The language is irrelevant if you know your SQL.

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.12.16 00:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 16/12/2008 00:21:36
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 16/12/2008 00:20:23
Originally by: Pwett
The language is irrelevant if you know your SQL.

^^ pretty much this, although if you're going to be writing extended stored procedures on MS SQL then C/C++ is useful.

Also, remember that some languages make certain things easier to write. Sitting down in C it's a pain to write a complex winforms based gui when compared to VB/VB.NET but it's a doggle to whip up a command line which pre-processes some data and loads it into SQL and is callable from a script.

Who will you be doing database programming for?
Will you be 'just' having to deal with the data layer of the application and schema/OLAP with someone else will be writing gui/web code for you?

I would definitely recommend reading 'Joel on Software' for some insights and further reading about becoming a developer.

Good luck (especially in avoiding writing reports for people because they know you can!)

ps. I should stress I'm not a developer but have developed prototype applications on ms sql+asp.net & vb.net as well as mysql & php. I also spent nearly 8 years deploying a systems management solution into enterprise customers for a dotcom. That product leveraged ms-sql for it's data repository and had a GUI that used it's own object model (com api) to talk with the database via a service using RPC. Lots of fun. I still wish my TSQL was better to this day Very Happy

Personally my selection would be the following (in bold).
Quote:
1. Intro to programming (choose C++, C#, or vb.net)

If you can write code in C++ you're good to go on Unix or MS Platforms. If you've never programmed before it might be a bit of a mind-bender hence the option to go for vb.net as an introduction which is easy and lets you whip up user interfaces and leverage .NET (saves time at potential expense of flexibility).

Quote:
2. Business application programming (choose java or cobol)

Java and C++ should complement each other and continue in the 'cross platform' vain and besides I still can't spell envirenment division. Laughing

Quote:
3. object oriented programming (choose java, c++, or c#)

Will strengthen your C++ if you already took it in the first module and potentially give you a little free time to study Transactional SQL.

Gunseki
Posted - 2008.12.16 04:19:00 - [16]
 

Hey Reaver

I'm in the field. Only low paying positions are on the job ads. Go to agencies for the money, asks any FTE. Focus on Business Intelligence, Data Warehouse. Database Admin & Deving are being taken by imported offshore labor. Also O-racle uses plSQL. Look at Microsoft ProClarity/PerformancePoint, Business Object Excelsius, or IBM Cognos. There's no money in Microsoft Technology.

Good Luck.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.12.16 09:46:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Reaver Babe
[...]don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java[...]

You really can't compare the demand for 5-star gourmet chefs with the demand for fast-food employees Twisted Evil
And yes I did just compare the level of expertise required by most "software companies" with that of the guy asking "would you like fries with that"...

This needs to be quoted again really.

Reaver Babe
Posted - 2008.12.16 16:17:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gunseki
Hey Reaver

I'm in the field. Only low paying positions are on the job ads. Go to agencies for the money, asks any FTE. Focus on Business Intelligence, Data Warehouse. Database Admin & Deving are being taken by imported offshore labor. Also O-racle uses plSQL. Look at Microsoft ProClarity/PerformancePoint, Business Object Excelsius, or IBM Cognos. There's no money in Microsoft Technology.

Good Luck.


So the entire database admin/dev field is being outsourced now? That kinda sucks. A lot. I mean I know that straight out of school I'm going to have to work a lower paying job for a few years while I gain some experience, but still, it's kinda discouraging.

Miss Ogynist
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.12.16 16:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Reaver Babe
So I've been looking up job wanted ads, and it seems that for most specializations you really don't need things like ASM or C++ anymore. Most jobs only want vb.net/c#/java. Is that really the case? I'm going for a career in database developer (SQL/oracle) specialized work.


People still use Java? No seriously. I thought it was a dying (if not dead) language.

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:35:00 - [20]
 

Going to Chime in here.

If you are looking at being a DB Developer then your choices are simple.

If you want to work with Oracle > Java.
If you want to work with MS SQL Server > C#
If you wan to work with any other DB > Do the research yourself.

Reasons.
MS SQL Server now supports the writing of Stored proc in .Net Assemblies (Oracle has a Java engine imbedded) and this technology is actually faster for a number of types of activity (not select, update type stuff, but if you are using Cursors then changes are you could get improvement using a compiled language).

MS have also said that they are depricating the ability to write extended stored procs in C/C++ and call them outside the SQL Server runtime. Now you will have to use .Net assemblies to do this.

There are advatages, you can have these assemblies installed into different db's (not just master), they have better security restrictions than extended Stored procs.

Oracle is doing a similar thing with Java.

This truly expands the capabilites of the db to do this kind of processing and data validation at insert/update time.

personally I see no reason not to take a mix of both C# and Java if this is where you knwo you want to head. Also I suggest using Postgres to learn SQL on as it is closer to the 'Standard' than any other implementation. Once you have done that it is easier to learn the little differences from the other implementations fro the different db vendors.

Hope this helps.

CCP Lingorm


C C P
Posted - 2008.12.16 17:39:00 - [21]
 

Also supporting the suggestion to look at the BI Tools.

Another big thing is integrating all these systems for that the major tools (that I am aware of) are MS Biztalk Server and Tibco Rendezvous. These are integration and workflow process tools (big business loves them) and they make heavy use of DB interactions.

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:02:00 - [22]
 

Good God I hate workflow process tools.

Spend more time defining the workflow process then getting the damn job done.

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.12.16 20:06:00 - [23]
 

Ah so my C++ for SQL is out of date. Did say I wasn't a developer didn't I? Smile

So MS are forcing the use of their runtime. Neutral DBA's will be happy as they won't need to give the sa password to anyone who want's to deploy a product that needs to install extended stored procedures.

Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.12.17 08:31:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Reaver Babe

1. Intro to programming (choose C++, C#, or vb.net)

2. Business application programming (choose java or cobol)

3. object oriented programming (choose java, c++, or c#)



1. vb.net: Easiest to start with, will get you familiar with the .net environment.
2. java: Since this is also an option for number 3, but you will make another choice there.
3. C#: Again .net environment, and very similar to C++ anyway. I would however recommend looking into the differences with C++ if you have spare time and want to cover the whole package.

P'uck
Posted - 2008.12.17 09:07:00 - [25]
 

I'm still rather fluent in Amiga-, Q- and C64-BASIC.

Can I haz well paid job now plz Laughing


 

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