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BloodyWomble
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:48:00 - [331]
 

Heaven forbid any of you raving queens actually work in the financial sector.
You guys are living proof why its such in a fubar state at the moment.

I do admit to enjoying the funnylicious proceedings within this post....
Headless chickens went thataway → → → → → → then thataway ↔ ↔ ↔ ↔

Laughing

durek magaliese
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:49:00 - [332]
 

everything including frigates price history has been wipped for todayConfused

Rosalina Sarinna
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:51:00 - [333]
 

Quite a suprise to see its been going on for years....

Good for CCP to tell us, but seems T2 everything will go up a bit for some time.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:51:00 - [334]
 

Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up.

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:54:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Kulmid
Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up.

It was showing, and now it is showing different - and only for certain advanced moon minerals. I sure wish that people who didn't know how to read the market history would stop replying to this thread.

Devian 666
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [336]
 

My favourite part of the story is how one of the guys who discovered it petitioned CCP, he was promptly thanked and the petition closed. Four years later he was banned. Nice work there.

Any bugs I've reported in the specified format have been sent back to me for "not being the standardised format".

Might be time for CCP to read unique petitions and bug reports more closely before ignoring them.

Tai Paktu
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [337]
 

Hey, lookit all the tickerless alts fearmongering and rabblerousing in this thread. It's pretty awesome.

We'll get the details. Chill. EvE-Search is available if you'd like to revisit t20. You can't honestly all be convinced that the only 0.0 alliance aware of this bug was BoB. Oh wait, you can because you need a scapegoat. CCP's not posting here yet, so instead you villainize BoB because it's easy for you.

I will eat my own hand if the only 0.0 alliance involved was Band of Brothers. And I don't even know if they were. How can you state that one person or one corp equates to the entire alliance being "in" on this massive conspiracy?

But enough logic amirite? Let's all go back to throwing a hissy-fit about our internet spaceship money.

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:56:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Kulmid
Does it not take until downtime for market data to update? If this price spike happened in the last 5-6 hours, which it most likely would have because of this thread. Then it would not be updated yet. After DT, if they price spike still does not show, then I will agree it has been covered up.



Price spikes was obvious, then there were a number of mass disconnects and at one point Sisi seems to have been not accepting connections following which market data first for ferroquel and then for all advanced minerals was altered. Then t2 price data was tampered with. Those are separate events that did not occur in the same timeframe. That evidence enough for you? Screens have been posted illustrating this

Elisa Day
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:59:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Ima Alt
Originally by: Elisa Day
It's also all minerals, PLEX and some T2 modules, just from checking my market quick bar.
Wrong.


Uh... Do you want screenshots?

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:59:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Tai Paktu
Hey, lookit all the tickerless alts fearmongering and rabblerousing in this thread. It's pretty awesome.
Hey look at all the proud fanboys posting in hopes that one day they'll be let in on a dev exploit.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:00:00 - [341]
 

Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:02:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Elisa Day


Uh... Do you want screenshots?


yes

Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:03:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something?

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:03:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:04:04
Quote:
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction).

If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs.


quoting myself but hey.

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:04:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Either coverup, attempt to combat spoloiters taking advantage of market panic (odd given slow ccp response) or a Hamster on acid

Pick one, make another up. Should be interesting to see Dev justification for selectively tampering with market data

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:07:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 03:09:02
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:04:04
Quote:
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
While I may be missing the topic, if CCP really has any form of effective transactional rollback capability for their databases, the missing market history could be very easily explained by rolling back the market transactions by offending parties sales (removing the ISK they gained), without affecting the people who actually bought the ferrogel (which is a separate transaction).

If this is the case, then the missing market history just shows how deep this rabbit hole of an exploit runs.


quoting myself but hey.
I didn't reply because I didn't want to embarrass you, but obviously most of the players in this afternoon's market mania don't even own POSes, much less participated in the use of exploits. There were no rollbacks, everyone got to keep their profits. The ones holding ferrogel when the history got "adjusted" were left holding the bag and got screwed. They are now in a downward bidding war with each other.

Will ferrogel prices rise again? Bet on it. However, at the top of this afternoon's bubble, some BIG sales came down the pipe, and record of those sales mysteriously vanished soon after.

Kauschovar
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:07:00 - [347]
 

I sincerely hope that ALL those involved will get permabanned together with their alts and all their (in-game) possessions annihilated ... even if it does change the EVE political landscape which I think it will as it should. These people were mostly playing for free anyways by buying GTCs with their ammassed ISK, so it will be a good riddance from every possible perspective.

Anything less would be a gigantic slap in the face for all those that have worked hard in the past 4 years just to get a little bit ahead whilst others have ammassed BPOs and every other possible thing that has any worth in EVE just by exploiting a bug.

This will be a very important test for CCP to give EVE it's credibility back. This is not Currin Tradin or EIB ... this is 'knowingly' exploiting a bug that allows one to create somethign out of nothing (rather than steal or scam or whatever from another player). There are no excuses, no ifs and buts, and as a result there should be no mercy, and no leniency!

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:09:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 11/12/2008 03:10:11
Quote:


Either coverup,

Because a dramabomb answer is better than a logical one.
Quote:
attempt to combat spoloiters taking advantage of market panic (odd given slow ccp response) or a Hamster on acid
Not an exploit to take advantage of a sudden surge in a market.

Quote:
I didn't reply because I didn't want to embarrass you, but obviously most of the players in this afternoon's market mania don't even own POSes, much less participated in the use of exploits. There were no rollbacks, everyone got to keep their profits. The ones holding ferrogel when the history got "adjusted" were left holding the bag and got screwed. They are now in a downward bidding war.
You don't understand database transactions hey?

Paedagogus
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:10:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Paedagogus on 11/12/2008 03:12:07
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something?


Perhaps they are trying to in some way prevent the markets collapsing when this reaches a head (dont get me wrong just speculating but that seems to be all everyone is doing) right now everyone is trying to do their own calculations on wtf is going to happen and no one really knows but what we do know is that even if this is a partial market manipulation tactic (the whole T2 mat thing not the changes to historys and yes i know thats so unlikely its accepted as being not the case) the effects will be felt for some time.

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:12:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Kauschovar
I sincerely hope that ALL those involved will get permabanned together with their alts and all their (in-game) possessions annihilated ... even if it does change the EVE political landscape which I think it will as it should.
Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, the big alliance people who profited from this exploit almost certainly used alts. Rest assured, those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned ruthlessly.

Elisa Day
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:12:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Kulmid
Originally by: Elisa Day


Uh... Do you want screenshots?


yes


http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg

It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08!

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:13:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

Not an exploit to take advantage of a sudden surge in a market.



I wasn't trying to say it was, but if for example the feroquel (sp) can be traced to a 'free stuff' pos then using it to take advantage of market panic makes a profits the proceeds of an exploit.

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:13:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: Ima Alt on 11/12/2008 03:13:02
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
You don't understand database transactions hey?
You don't understand market dynamics hey?

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:15:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Elisa Day


http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg

It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08!

What region is that?

Elisa Day
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:16:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Ima Alt
Originally by: Elisa Day


http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg

It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08!

What region is that?


The Forge.

Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:17:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: Paedagogus
Edited by: Paedagogus on 11/12/2008 03:12:07
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something?


Perhaps they are trying to in some way prevent the markets collapsing when this reaches a head (dont get me wrong just speculating but that seems to be all everyone is doing) right now everyone is trying to do their own calculations on wtf is going to happen and no one really knows but what we do know is that even if this is a partial market manipulation tactic (the whole T2 mat thing not the changes to historys and yes i know thats so unlikely its accepted as being not the case) the effects will be felt for some time.


I'm on my alt in Jita watching the prices on certain moon materials keep shifting up for buy orders, and down for sells as people try to beat each other out on a craze. I'll admit to doing some myself too, but at profits like this, I can't resist :(

And when this does reach a head, market history manipulation or not, the market is going to explode skyward on prices, unless a price cap is put it or something. I highly doubt it's going to crash anytime soon.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:17:00 - [357]
 

Quote:
You don't understand market dynamics hey?
Do I need to?

Data integrity has gone to **** with rollbacks of offending accounts transactions, rollbacks which *don't* affect other players which you wouldn't usually observe them unless you could log in to a banned account. Rather than have your client (and the server) die in the ass when this data is queried, it returns a dud value.

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:19:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Ima Alt
Considering it takes minimal skills to set up a POS, the big alliance people who profited from this exploit almost certainly used alts. Rest assured, those throwaway characters 100% funded by GTCs were banned ruthlessly.


I think they'd be able to track things a little bit better than that. And unless they registered those account under a fake name, CCP will know who they are. The only way to really wash the ISK is to make it look like it was aquired in some way by force, and not by the alts just giving it straight to mains/corps/alliance. Or to run it through a series of market transactions, but to wash that amount if ISK would have an effect on the market.

Re Mi
Caldari
Funshine Unlimited
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:20:00 - [359]
 

Edited by: Re Mi on 11/12/2008 03:23:23
Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Why is CCP tampering with the market history prices? (Sorry, I don't spend all day playing market games, so please enlighten me).


Unknown. Suspicions vary, but the most common I've seen is that they're trying to cover up the advanced materials price spikes that occurred. Which is weird because why would CCP have reason to change market price history data unless it was to specifically cover up something?


The only market that really matters is Forge, its the main volume market. The other markets could be the same person selling at the same place for a week, so unless you have a before or after screen shot, I wouldn't put much faith in it. I have bought and sold to myself in order to set a regional average, I am sure a lot of other players have as well. I have also bought and sold to myself to both raise and drop the regional average depending on where I wanted prices to go. I don't think its time to call CCP out for something nefarious, especially without any evidence. If they were going to be nefarious, they never would have made this thread. But they did, so they are at least trying to keep this open.

That said, they might be confiscating materials. I am not sure how you do an accounting of that, it would probably do something goofy in the market windows. If a significant portion of the materials are fraudulent and as yet unsold, or was sold to banned players, they could simply pull the materials off the server. Maybe this is what that looks like when they do it on a large scale, if that is indeed the case, which we don't know. My own belief is that they should just issue the patch they were already planning and just extend it a bit to deal with these issues, or possibly extend downtime, stop the speculation, and inform the players. *And remember, these players probably actively manipulate the market, so they probably have a LOT of transactions that need to be taken back.*

I think now is a good time for a forensic audit of the EvE market, and a report on the Serpentis takeover of the Jita Commodities Exchange.

Ima Alt
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:21:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Elisa Day
Originally by: Ima Alt
Originally by: Elisa Day


http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3434/omgmarketh4xrh0.jpg

It's the great Enriched Uranium and Liquid Ozone coverup of 08!

What region is that?


The Forge.
That's weird that the goods affected are different depending on the region. Hmm, mysteries abound! I stand corrected.

In Domain, minerals are zeroed out, but advanced moon minerals had the "maximum" prices changed to eliminate the spike in the history. Also, PLEXes and every tech2 ship and module that I checked were not changed at all.


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