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Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.12.09 09:30:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards

So devs dont play the game NOR watch eve vids?


If they play the game they are accused of cheating, if they don't play it they get accused of not understanding what's going on. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Besides, it's hard to beat being there when it happens with all the tools ready to analyze - not nearly the same as just playing (and being distracted :-) ).

"vids"? You must be joking. These are mostly propaganda pieces - not documentaries. Besides the low quality of most, the devs would have to look at a ton of them to learn anything and it still might be the wrong picture.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2008.12.09 09:53:00 - [62]
 

That familiar feeling you get (much mitigated in Quantum Rise 1.0.3) when your client stops responding just before you see your little blinky pod thing will be gone.

This RazzRazzRazz

Keep up the good work !

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.09 10:12:00 - [63]
 

MOAR FPS !!! good

Actualy a nice blog. Did you consider 3 levels of resource loading for turrets, drones and effects:

1. all loaded
2. loaded when affecting player ship (missile/turret hit, player ship firing, web effect etc.)
3. all off

Option 2 would not impact visuals much (you still get effects when your own ship is either source or target) and would get good performance still.

If drone models are not loaded, will they still be represented by brackets ?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.12.09 10:47:00 - [64]
 

Obvious awesomeness is awesome! Shocked

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:03:00 - [65]
 

I'd love to get aboard the 'Happy Train' in this thread, but sadly we've heard "we've slain the lag monster" before several times, and yet the same issues still plague larger fights.

It seems to me rather than address the issues with smartbombs, turret models, ships exploding etc you're just giving us options to turn them off and recommending that for PVP - which incidentally still doesn't stop the lag in most situations.

Well for me that seems a bit of a kop-out. Creating a gorgeous space game then telling us in order to actually play it in real time you need to disable the 'gorgeous' is a con.

Still, nice to read another blog and hope you'll keep working on it as I'm sure a lot of it is down to technical limitations rather than your programming, so fair play - just don't treat us like idiots by advertising a lag free game, then delivering a marginally less laggy (with more disabled stuff) game after this uber patch.

Cheers.

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2008.12.09 11:40:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
MOAR FPS !!! good

Actualy a nice blog. Did you consider 3 levels of resource loading for turrets, drones and effects:

1. all loaded
2. loaded when affecting player ship (missile/turret hit, player ship firing, web effect etc.)
3. all off

Option 2 would not impact visuals much (you still get effects when your own ship is either source or target) and would get good performance still.


That is a very good point and something we will look into.

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
If drone models are not loaded, will they still be represented by brackets ?


Yes, disabling drone models will not affect brackets.

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2008.12.09 11:57:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: Jason Edwards

So devs dont play the game NOR watch eve vids?


If they play the game they are accused of cheating, if they don't play it they get accused of not understanding what's going on. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Besides, it's hard to beat being there when it happens with all the tools ready to analyze - not nearly the same as just playing (and being distracted :-) ).



I'm not an avid gamer and didn't play EVE before working at CCP Games. I do play now as much as I can in high-sec fluffy-bunny world so that I understand the mechanics of the game but the only fleet fight action I get is when I monitor these things to profile client/server performance. Embarassed

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2008.12.09 12:06:00 - [68]
 

yet an another dev blog i dont have to give negative input on..

weldone ccp. nice graphics, info, well take it..

Lord EmBra
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.09 13:18:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Lord EmBra on 09/12/2008 13:19:29
Will fighter models also be disabled if drone models are disabled?

Siena Petrucis
Caldari
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.12.09 14:03:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Siena Petrucis on 09/12/2008 14:03:25
Quote:
"Disable audio (this does not include EVE Voice, there should not be a performance impact there)."

So why is audio put into EVE at all? Answer: to give the player a better situational awareness. However, when I am in a fleet fight with more than 50 players, there is just a constant noise mess from gunfire and exploding missiles. So that does not help to increase situatiational awareness, so people turn off audio completely and gain performance.

However, pilots are loosing audible feedback from their own ship that way. You can no longer hear when you get hit, or if your weapons are out of ammo, or if you decloak. That is very bad because in a fleet fight, pilots have their eyes on the overview, or fleet window, but not on their modules or tank.

Suggestion: Add an audio option that disables all noise except the events that affect the own ship:
- ship gets hit
- own weapons fire
- out of ammo
- out of cap
- ship cloaks / decloaks
- ship warps

That would save lots of performance and even increase situational awareness compared to todays audio mess!

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.09 16:35:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Quote:
With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client. It's sad, but it's true...

With Quantum Rise 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 we made it better again.


You didnt. Myself and several other players are still experiencing client instabilitiy and at least from personal experience am getting the cold shoulder from the devs with the bug report (its remained un touched by the devs sence the last patch). Granted its better then it was before 1.0.2 but I am still getting crashes under the same conditions.



You did notice he said "better", yes? Not "omfg wtf zomg perfect"?


Crashing 2-3 times in rapid succession while in warp between stargates would be enough to get anyone mad. It doesnt happen as often but its enough to block me from most activites, heck I wont even take the freighter out because of this issue that the devs seem to be ignoring my bug report on.

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2008.12.09 16:50:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lord EmBra
Edited by: Lord EmBra on 09/12/2008 13:19:29
Will fighter models also be disabled if drone models are disabled?

Yes. This affects fighters and (lighter) drones the same.

Arganato
Posted - 2008.12.09 18:16:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Arganato on 09/12/2008 18:17:02
Originally by: Siena Petrucis
Edited by: Siena Petrucis on 09/12/2008 14:03:25
Quote:
"Disable audio (this does not include EVE Voice, there should not be a performance impact there)."

So why is audio put into EVE at all? Answer: to give the player a better situational awareness. However, when I am in a fleet fight with more than 50 players, there is just a constant noise mess from gunfire and exploding missiles. So that does not help to increase situatiational awareness, so people turn off audio completely and gain performance.

However, pilots are loosing audible feedback from their own ship that way. You can no longer hear when you get hit, or if your weapons are out of ammo, or if you decloak. That is very bad because in a fleet fight, pilots have their eyes on the overview, or fleet window, but not on their modules or tank.

Suggestion: Add an audio option that disables all noise except the events that affect the own ship:
- ship gets hit
- own weapons fire
- out of ammo
- out of cap
- ship cloaks / decloaks
- ship warps

That would save lots of performance and even increase situational awareness compared to todays audio mess!


Oh and it will even be more realistic Very Happy
As there is not really sound in space is it, as theres no air. Only sound that could reach the pilot had to travel in the ship materials and or air inside the ship Smile

Edit: Great patch!! Keep up the good work Very HappyVery Happy

Elite Alt
Posted - 2008.12.09 19:46:00 - [74]
 

Holy matrimony! they admitted to messing up without having 10000 threads on the subject? man times are changing

Solcypher
NibbleTek
Posted - 2008.12.09 22:54:00 - [75]
 

quality devblog. any time we can read not just a 'yeah we're fixing it,' but we're doing x, y, z specifically and these are the results... +1

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2008.12.09 23:35:00 - [76]
 

Since graphics are being looked at can we please get an option in the near future to turn off or tone down background nebulae?

yoni
Posted - 2008.12.10 00:49:00 - [77]
 

Thanks for explaining all that in detail, Atlas! Nice work! For the first time, a large fleet battle didn't become a slide show for me :D



Three things still wrecking the "love affair" with your client:




1) The overview panel has been changed a lot, and you broke about as much as you improved:

Even if you suffer through the never before necessary micromanagement of every separate window (overview panel, selection panel, drone panel, fleet panel etc), You can have them all neatly arranged and locked - then you dock and undock, and they all decided to move somewhere else on their own. (despite all snapping functions and such turned off)

And while all the new overview settings features are truly great, its still quite buggy. If you alter and save a preset, your preset-selections under "overview" or "brackets" for your custom overview-tabs suddenly change on their own!




2) Following MS' "Windows best practice" recommendations for EVE settings storage was a sucky idea! Best USER practice would be to keep settings in less cryptic formats and file naming in a folder under cache - and all of them in one place!
Right now, its a HUGE pain in the butt to manage and backup the settings for more than one account. You've really just made things so much more complex and annoying for the average user.

Think EVE on a USB stick as portable software... then we're getting somewhere good! Portable Software "best practice" is the way to go... don't make us all get Thin-aware, Installaware's new product that's way too expensive but will change EVE back to do things the right way and not the Microsoft way.




3) Premium Graphics run perfectly snappy on my 8800GT, but I don't use them, because my mouse pointer gets incredibly slow, like there's glue on the screen.

AND some ships actually got uglier in premium graphics! Think Nighthawk loosing its awesome shiny blackness, Zealot getting that putrid sick dog poo green - if a car had that color, it would NEVER move off the dealers lot!

You people should consider these things, we're the ones who have to fly them! If a color wouldn't sell on a car lot, don't color OUR ships like that!

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.12.10 01:15:00 - [78]
 

I still want to see my own guns firing while turning off all others... will this be possible with the changes?.

Rock Zappa
Posted - 2008.12.10 05:23:00 - [79]
 

Thank you. This is all very welcome news. The blog made for informative and Enjoyable reading.

Seeing attention being given to improving what already exists (for the most part) before adding new features, is also welcome. I look forward to the revised client with eager anticipation -especially in regard to the Low Fragmentation Heap. :) What a Cool idea!

Now about additional client feature ideas... where may I present those? :)

Onyx Asablot
The Vicious Circle
Posted - 2008.12.10 09:35:00 - [80]
 

Thanks CCP, looking forward to trying it in action Twisted Evil

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.12.10 10:38:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Siena Petrucis
Quote:
"Disable audio (this does not include EVE Voice, there should not be a performance impact there)."
…speaking of which, have you managed to squash the bug that made EVE Voice kill performance (or at least keyboard and mouse input) on the Mac client? I see no mention of it in the blog or the patch note.

As someone who have been incapable of turning voice on unless I wanted to make the game so unreponsive that you can't even quit out of it, I find that particular line hillarious, you see… Wink

Jarran Raikor
Caldari
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
United Freemen Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.10 10:47:00 - [82]
 

I've just read the dev blog and I'm extremely, extremely excited about things to come (just in time for my brand spanking new rig Very Happy).

So props to you folks at CCP for putting the effort in to identify all these points where the game can be tightened up - I appreciate it!

Long live EVE! Cool

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.10 12:23:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: yoni
some ships actually got uglier in premium graphics! Think Nighthawk loosing its awesome shiny blackness, Zealot getting that putrid sick dog poo green - if a car had that color, it would NEVER move off the dealers lot!



I think you need to get your dog to a vet Rolling Eyes

gordon cain
Posted - 2008.12.10 12:58:00 - [84]
 

If by some miracle fleet fights acutally gets worth doing, then what are gonna complain about instead?

nice effort to reduce the lag


Gordon Cain

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2008.12.10 13:13:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Siena Petrucis
Quote:
"Disable audio (this does not include EVE Voice, there should not be a performance impact there)."
…speaking of which, have you managed to squash the bug that made EVE Voice kill performance (or at least keyboard and mouse input) on the Mac client? I see no mention of it in the blog or the patch note.

As someone who have been incapable of turning voice on unless I wanted to make the game so unreponsive that you can't even quit out of it, I find that particular line hillarious, you see… Wink


Ehem.. Touche... Embarassed
That particular bug is being worked on by our Transgaming partners who wrap the Mac client. I don't have an ETA sadly but it's at the top of their list.

Jed Clampett
Posted - 2008.12.10 16:08:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Jed Clampett on 10/12/2008 16:30:07
Edited by: Jed Clampett on 10/12/2008 16:29:07
A lot of these improvements may only help those close by in the EU with fast clean connections. I highly suspect that the EVE client doesn't always gracefully handle degraded Internet conditions from trans-oceanic and trans-continental connections.

Specifically some of the effects you addressed also occur when the data exchange rate drops too low, is corrupted, or is lag-bursty (jammed and released). The client can't draw stuff for which it receives incomplete data or does not receive data in a timely manner. By not graceful, I mean that the intuitive feel is that bad data conditions can cause the loss of entire frames or more - while the client clumsily figures out and corrects for those error conditions. You should simulate that more.

Of course many of these problems come with fancy synchronized real-time client-server stuff like actually trying to time turret firing to when it really is happening -- instead of letting the client independently draw turrets firing even then they are reloading or not firing all. Screw the folk who want to stopwatch turrets to find actual firing rates for that player's skills and specific named turrets. The same for showing actual drone flight orientation. Anything smaller than a player ship should get whatever flight orientation the client pulls out of the hat as ships are the only things most players have a chance to outmaneuver.

Maybe the client should take the "pulse" of the connection and adjust the characteristics of the display dynamically based on the speed/latency/error rate of the data connection. The client could also periodically inform the server of these conditions so that it doesn't try to force more data than can make it through.

P.S. You are using OS calls for routine memory management? Uh, I was under the impression that while the OS handlers were good, that they were really only expected to handle the most coarse growth and shrinkage of applications. That is, I was under the impression that OS memory management calls were for periodic top level allocations of memory and that then specialized compiler subroutines would manage fine details in a manner tuned to the application -- especially for real-time stuff. Question

FugginNutz
Caldari
Trolls From Outer Space
Posted - 2008.12.10 16:36:00 - [87]
 

Ok...I appreciate all CCP is doing to improve framerates and client/server performance but it sounds like you are doing so by making everyone turn off all the bells and whistles the game has to offer that makes the game so enjoyable to play. Instead of (nerfing) brackets, graphics options, etc....why not spend more time optimizing the code/hardware/whatever to handle the brackets, explosions, shaking, etc.... (although camera shaking is annoying...tyvm for allowing us to turn that off at least). Confused

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2008.12.10 17:16:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: FugginNutz
Ok...I appreciate all CCP is doing to improve framerates and client/server performance but it sounds like you are doing so by making everyone turn off all the bells and whistles the game has to offer that makes the game so enjoyable to play. Instead of (nerfing) brackets, graphics options, etc....why not spend more time optimizing the code/hardware/whatever to handle the brackets, explosions, shaking, etc.... (although camera shaking is annoying...tyvm for allowing us to turn that off at least). Confused

Not at all. Turning off options is just part of it. We're doing a lot of work in improving performance of EVE in all its high-detail glossiness as I talked about at-length in the blog. Cool

Of course we would like to be able to run 1000 person fleet fights with awe-inspiring graphics on a 1 GHz machine with 512MB of RAM but at some point the hardware is simply incapable. To allow people to participate we're giving them more graphics switches so that more people can play even if EVE isn't gorgeous for all. ugh

Siena Petrucis
Caldari
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.12.10 21:04:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Siena Petrucis on 10/12/2008 21:05:22
Originally by: Arganato
Edited by: Arganato on 09/12/2008 18:17:02

As there is not really sound in space is it, as theres no air. Only sound that could reach the pilot had to travel in the ship materials and or air inside the ship Smile



Ahem ... quote from "The wet grave" http://www.eve-online.com/races/wetgrave/page_02a.asp?pp=background%2Cstories:
"Audio synthesizers? What do you mean?" Pirkotan thought.
"As you know there is no sound in space, but when we were developing the capsules we found that people wanted to use as many of their senses as possible, thus we added the sound. By letting a computer create three dimensional sound we also add to the awareness you have while in battles, for instance."



Battlecheese
Posted - 2008.12.11 05:12:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Crashing 2-3 times in rapid succession while in warp between stargates would be enough to get anyone mad. It doesnt happen as often but its enough to block me from most activites, heck I wont even take the freighter out because of this issue that the devs seem to be ignoring my bug report on.


Well, if this post is any indication of the quality of your bug-reports, I'm not surprised.
A brief scan of the forums should be adequate to show that your experience is not being shared with the majority of players.

Simple solution: take your computer to a competant IT practitioner and give him/her money to fix it.


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