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Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:34:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Fred0
Originally by: Malachon Draco

I don't entirely agree with you Fred. Yes, Eve is a political game, but you act as if it requires mastery at diplomacy to get a big coalition together. Generally, its a lot harder to keep the number of 'allies' down. Triumvirate is perhaps a bit of a special case, with the attitud we regularly display on forums and ingame, but I doubt it would be difficult for us to join an existing powerblock if we wanted to.


Maybe you're right. I'm just gonna comment at one bit. "get a big coalition together" - It requires an endless amount of work to coordinate 5 alliances well, the more you add the more difficult it gets. Add in some ego's on a couple of sides and it will never work unless you smack them down hard.

Besides, nothing could be easier than standings but standings really are just like wedding promises, it's after the ceremony that the work really starts. Because after that you have to live with eachother and then you get pets that starts to **** in the spouses sandbox and god knows what. :)

Anyways, not my intention to derail this. So I'll fade back now again.


You're certainly right that making a big coalition work together is a lot harder than just gathering one. And while I don't appreciate your tendency to go for huge blobs and avoid other fights, for the coordination you achieved during the Tribute fights with BoB I think you certainly deserve respect. On the other hand, once you gather 100-200 caps and a sizeable supportfleet for every big operation, do you really still need a lot of coordination?

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:38:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Shadoo

Originally by: Malachon Draco

And none of the young alliances will be able to claim space unless they join one of the powerblocks, that I am certain of.



And yet you've been proven wrong already on this thread -- all you have to do is look at Cloud Ring.


Sorry, regions that don't even yield enough revenue to fuel the towers needed to hold Sov don't really count, especially if they have no strategic significance. Who would even want CR? And the moment one of the powerblocks even looks at it, the alliance there will fold.

Shadoo
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:41:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Shadoo

Originally by: Malachon Draco

And none of the young alliances will be able to claim space unless they join one of the powerblocks, that I am certain of.



And yet you've been proven wrong already on this thread -- all you have to do is look at Cloud Ring.


Sorry, regions that don't even yield enough revenue to fuel the towers needed to hold Sov don't really count, especially if they have no strategic significance. Who would even want CR? And the moment one of the powerblocks even looks at it, the alliance there will fold.



Perhaps your answer gives a clue to what is wrong with 0.0 EVE. Can you spot it?

sakana
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:42:00 - [34]
 

solo/small gang is still possible regardless of what everyone says, it's just that back in the day it used to be much easier because people were a lot more stupid. yea people use jump bridges/titan bridges these days, but unless your pvp thrills come from sitting on a gate for hours hoping for something to jump in, i don't see the problem there.

if you are part of one of the large power blocs, or in association with them, it can easily appear that there is nothing else going on in eve, but thats bull, theres still plenty of small alliances fighting in 0.0 and empire.


Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:45:00 - [35]
 

Peace will lead to carebearship.

Carebearship will lead to downfall.

It happened in the past, it will happen in the future.

Only those who constantly steel themselves through the fire of war will stay alive. A small determined force can kill a large horde slacking carebears.

Don't worry YARRRR!!

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:51:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Shadoo
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Shadoo

Originally by: Malachon Draco

And none of the young alliances will be able to claim space unless they join one of the powerblocks, that I am certain of.



And yet you've been proven wrong already on this thread -- all you have to do is look at Cloud Ring.


Sorry, regions that don't even yield enough revenue to fuel the towers needed to hold Sov don't really count, especially if they have no strategic significance. Who would even want CR? And the moment one of the powerblocks even looks at it, the alliance there will fold.



Perhaps your answer gives a clue to what is wrong with 0.0 EVE. Can you spot it?


Crappy 0.0? /me shrugs. Whole different discussion.

Tertius Caedes
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:02:00 - [37]
 

There is only one Solution.
Remove Standings from Game!

Red Gabba
Minmatar
R E D E M P T I O N
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:09:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Red Gabba on 08/12/2008 13:16:00
I personally think the edge was taken off this game when they solved the book mark problem with warp to 0 on gates and stations, bubbles were a good counter in .0 space but with the introduction of jump bridges and other logistic solutions, some alliances can make it from the edge of empire to the edge of known space without even seeing a jump gate.

I remember getting up at 5am to scout a hauler full of minerals from omist to empire once, sixty odd jumps, huge risk but massive rewards, now the rewards are the same but the risk is nearly zero. The feeling of isolation when in .0 space needs to be re-introduced and the risks upped.

I think once that is done the power blocks will become smaller again, more localised because the logistics of supporting your friends in the north when your in the south will just not be worth it, or east west, you get the idea, of course this would need to be done with a overhaul of the sov system in place, sadly ive no ideas on that one.

As a after thought.... Transports.... next to useless now?

Fitz Chivalry
Gallente
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:11:00 - [39]
 

I don't know, 6 months or so ago I was convined that BoB/GBC was going to end up controlling the whole of 0.0, now look at the present situation.

There are too many fragile egos in eve for coalitions to last forever and (as has been seen many times) a lot of alliances/corps are too depedent on 1 or 2 people and if thy were to leave the game for any reason then even the largest alliance or strongest corp could quickly implode.

Red Gabba
Minmatar
R E D E M P T I O N
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:13:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
I don't know, 6 months or so ago I was convined that BoB/GBC was going to end up controlling the whole of 0.0, now look at the present situation.



Funny thing is, if there was no power blocks, they might have done.

Lord Zoran
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:15:00 - [41]
 

i won't say much except eve used to be more fun......

Feyn Tekar
Caldari
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:27:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Red Gabba
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
I don't know, 6 months or so ago I was convined that BoB/GBC was going to end up controlling the whole of 0.0, now look at the present situation.



Funny thing is, if there was no power blocks, they might have done.


ummm...gbc is a "powerblock". was even bigger at its highpoint than the nc blob

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:32:00 - [43]
 



I've been around since carriers were first introduced and the first outpost was deployed. And it was kinda inevitable that the game would eventually go this way. The alchemy idea fell flat on it's face when they introduced it with the 20 to 1 ratio so using it is unprofitable in any moon material and/or product. But it usually takes 6 month 'chunks' for CCP to realize that something isn't working and/or 100 pages of players '/signed' a thread for them to consider it messed up.

Now, we come to the recent wars and yes it is indeed becoming 'Capital Ships Online™' but that isn't a bad thing since it was a very long skill path and very expensive to get those ships assembled/acquired. Those pilots and/or alliances went through the work and effort to get all those assets/ships and they 'should' reap the rewards in some fashion.

I believe however just like POS warfare was 'sorta' fixed with POS gunners that large scale fights will need a new infusion of tactics or ship classes to combat the 'uber' capital blob that I think is becoming quite common these days. It happened on the Chinese server and within I think 6 months of 0.0 being introduced over there one alliance controlled everything in the game. Now we stand on that edge and are peering into it. There are indeed other alliances and entities in this game still, but as was said if certain factions/alliances decide 'that region/moon/constellation will be mine' there isn't much the owners will be able to do about it. Cloud Ring is indeed a good example, PL owns the good moons there. Other alliances are fighting over the stations but in the end the stations will end up costing those alliances per month instead of making them isk. They *might* make a profit if they do alliance ops, explore hard, work the 'leftover' moons or *shiver* ice mine. But (and nothing against who's fighting there) PL will keep those moons, with 5 (some say 6) titans and a simply 'large' capital fleet those alliances will not be able to take those moons from PL. PL will always get a fair warning of at least 24 hours and with alts parked there could have the timers set exactly how they need. The only solution *might* be to just hit the tower as often as possible and make it unprofitable, but in that action PL would probably just wipe Cloud Ring clean and install more pets. But sov mechanics are something I think players will work on more these days as it's showing just how broken they are.

As for the capital blobs, I think it might be time to look back to naval technology, and find out why massive battleship (dreads) fleets weren't viable and ways to replicate that here. Off the top of my head 2 things came to mind.

U-Boats, basically relying on speed and packing just a few shots that would seriously cripple a battleship (dread) these ships were cheap, quick and you could field dozens or a hundred of em for the cost of a Battleship (dread) maybe a ship with the ability to launch capital torps or capital size slugs (yet weak) would be a good solution. And no SB's aren't a good solution, a dread can tank dozens of those all day long and laugh. And with 200+ dreads that means the SB blob doesn't work. If they could outrun, or seriously hurt the swarms of fighters assigned to them that would be an added bonus.

(cont)

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:33:00 - [44]
 

Destroyers Between Battleship and Dread I believe there is a giant gap, and no I don't think capital pilots should be rendered useless, BUT they shouldn't be able to 'Tank rush' like in CC Red Alert. Which is what we are seeing now. So if an enemy deploys just one ship in mass quantities I think it's just pretty obvious the NPC factions would come up with a ship to combat that simple strategy. Destroyers wouldn't be as big as dreads but would be bigger then battleships. A dread in siege has a problem hitting a target, make these ships deal out maybe 1/2 or 1/3 dread damage for 1/4 or 1/3 the cost of a dread. They couldn't go toe to toe with any dread and 3 to 4 battleships would put a serious hurt on it, but it would deal comparable capital damage for a low cost. And if someone dread blobs and doesn't support those ships with a sub capital fleet they should begin to take losses because there is a glaring hole in their tactics which is simply being exploited.

Not sure if it's a ideal solution but I think it might 'even up' the playing field a tad now that 1,000 people in a system is possible.

Subs Yes we have cloaking battleships and such now, but their non functional from what everyone is saying and their ability to combat a capital blob is non-existent. If someone wants to deploy a dread/carrier fleet with no support whatsoever then fine, make a ship that can weave in and out of the lines (Within limits) that exploits this mercilessly. Lobbing semi capital grab slugs for a low cost. They can cloak up even after being targeted if they waste a 'shot' of fuel or whatever, of course fast ships would uncloak them all over easily but if none are deployed then this ship would rule the stars.

Everyone here that's played other games has seen those same games 'broken' with one unit bought in extreme excess and lobbed at other another player or computer as a way to quickly 'win'. That's begun happening here, will CCP recognize that? Maybe, this technology that's been around since WWII would be introduced as a way to keep combat and territorial control from stagnating without 'nerfing the hell' out of existing tech.

Like I said before, capital pilots shouldn't be punished for having their ships, they should simply be encouraged to have supporting pilots around as the game was intended. We've all seen 5 to 10 dreads get massacred on a POS by non capital assets because they lacked support, why then shouldn't it occur when that method is deployed on a larger scale. The answer is, it should.

I hope people will take this as intended, I am not looking to 'punish' those that have put in long hours and effort to train correctly. I do believe however that just like almost any other game if someone wants to beat a very straight forwards strategy then there should be that option without having to spend more isk then god to do so.

Make it cheap, make it trainable and make it available soon and you won't see multi region control by single alliances. Or POS's held all over EVE by one alliance as drawn out fleets would get massacred without deploying a balanced fleet would be death to those hard won capitals.

TL:DR version: Lets not nerf caps, lets just make it so smaller and newer ships make 'tank rushing' a costly solution.

I left out all smack, and hopefully this will only add to the (actually good for a change) debate that's happening in this thread so far. Hope it helps.

-Ban

Kurt Ambrose
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:46:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 08/12/2008 13:46:24
Originally by: Shadoo
Edited by: Shadoo on 08/12/2008 12:24:29
Introduce more NPC 0.0 stations and sov in existing regions that do not have them currently. Add quality agents and unique content to those stations and consider some kind of reward (in standings, etc) to empires currently residing in those regions.

Encourage roaming alliances by giving them NPC stations to base from deep within enemy territory, limit Sov 3 systems, nerf highend moons and limit the offensive abilities of titans.

Let people fortify their outposts if they so wish, but introduce a penalty to ratting/mining/exploration if you choose to claim sov (and jam).




This. Also adding more 0.0 regions would be good.

Silvestri
Minmatar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.12.08 13:59:00 - [46]
 

Something I would like to throw in there for thought as well. People who have been playing since 03 and when Eve came out have riduculous skill points compared to new players. What about a skillpoint cap? Make people specialists in fields rather then I can just train/fly everything out there. I do think there are alot of good points and finally a good thread on COAD. ugh

Zhula Guixgrixks
Gallente
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:03:00 - [47]
 

Jump-Logistics counter : introduce cap size interdictors, able to intercept enemy logistic ships.

Nomad style of 0.0 existence: Shadoo already mentioned it, introduce more NPC stations. Add some other possible ways of 0.0 existence, SPOs, "Hidden outposts" etc. Not just Power-Block compatible methods.

Guerilla stuff: Add new viable guerilla mechanics. A Tri(?) guy posted an idea about disturbing moon harvester process. I do not have link to it, but basic idea was to allow disable/kill NPC lorries slowboating between moon and moon harverster.

Jallem Sims
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:07:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kurt Ambrose


This. Also adding more 0.0 regions would be good.



been to catch recently? before -A- rolled through, iac had a active system.... now, its dead :-/

the is enough systems, just big alliances holding it, and people have to pay to reside in it.

but to add to what is the deep residing problem with eve... a group of old chars, been playing far to much internetspace ships have too many alts, controlling too much. I mean, these wars are had over msn/or other chat chennels/voice comms not in eve, in eve we just take part!

Phelaen
Amarr
Ferira Innovations
Atrocitas
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:13:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Wollari
Yes, but poses still produce a huge amount of ISK. And if this won't change too, the posses will still be something big to fight for and keep alive.

If someday the Sov Holding Feature would be removed from the posses to something different, perhaps we should combine Sov with pos mining. For example: a moon harvester will only give max 25% of their minerals if the alliance don't hold sov and 100% with Sov 3 ( 50% with Sov 2 and 75% with Sov 2)

Then the alliance must keep the sov to hold the moons and make the big money out of their space. This will keep the fights for sov but moves the fights from the pos warfare to something different.

I know that then most calculations for reactions will fail, but you must have a goal to fight for, and it should not be pos warfare.

I would rather fight for something that my opponnent would get lesser money out of their moons. It should also be possible to let the sov drop from 3 to 2 if an assault to a single sovereignty holding point was successful and a full drop if you've had a successfull assault on several points. so you've the time to get it back to 3 in a shorter time rather then 6 weeks.



so we make new assault points?? that doesnt change anything just moves the problem from attacking posses to attacking new assault points. and this moon mineral thing would just make all the larger alliances that can hold sov richer while all small alliances that do some low end to medium end moon mineral mining in low sec will not make any more isk at all.

Kal'Kalagan
Minmatar
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:13:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 08/12/2008 14:15:23
Lets say for example that an alliance attacks Solar in Cache we all know damn well that thanks to he jumpbridge network the entire drone regions coaltion can be in Cache in several minutes coming from as far away as Colbalt Edge and then with the threat gone they can all be back home the same evening. Its wrong to be able to deploy huuge fleets over massive distances in practically no time.

Another example is when Veritas aided Fix as part of the Smashkill coalition in the drone regions. It took 12 minutes to get from BWF to Oasa. Thats a huge distance conventionally maybe over 40 jumps if I remember correctly, yet with the jump bridges we could go back and fourth between Germinate, Vale and any number of drone regions in no time. Likewise Solar could could get to Oasa from their bases in Cache in an equally quick time. This all leads to alliances/coalition holding massive areas of space because they can defend them by making use of quick fleet deployement via jump bridges.

Now I've got nothing against these huge coaltions inprinciple but if you removed the jumpbridges then the huge blobs woudlnt be able to form so quickly. We'd have smaller fights unless there was a major invasion and alliances would have to work a lot harder at defense - only right if you control a lot of space.

Psorion
Caldari
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:14:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Psorion on 08/12/2008 14:14:17
NPC Space is still viable for small alliances. MMORPG stands for Massive MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing GAME.

Anything worth defending will cause blobage. Part of being Massive.


Kal'Kalagan
Minmatar
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:19:00 - [52]
 

But that wasnt always Bob's philosophy, you usd to be elite. You are no longer elite thanks to everyone ability to field massive capital blobs. You've adapted as necessary as Eve has changed but Bob isnt the alliance it was 2 years ago and I suspect that many of the veterans miss what it once was.

No smack intended here you've merely changed and adapted as any good alliance needs to to survive.


Phelaen
Amarr
Ferira Innovations
Atrocitas
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:24:00 - [53]
 


- no more jumpbridges...
- make ALOT more 0.0 NPC space i mean add 5 more regions. it will help smaller alliances most.

I agree that people will blob if something is worth defending. but something thats also ok just not as good as some of the other regions is still worth defending for smaller alliances that cant get any of the really good stuff. dont put any high end moon minerals in it though.. or they will all show up again :P

harry beanbag
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:28:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: harry beanbag on 08/12/2008 14:30:39
removing logistics and jump bridges and such are not the answer. All that would do is maybe delay the blob by a day or 2.

Honestly i think its the high end moons. i say make them more available in emipre and lowsec, crash the market for dyps and prom and you'll see a less need for the super blob. CCP stated they want people to move out of empire and play in 00 but without the income generated by the people already holding space, you cant match them in a long scale engagement. Its too easy for people already holding territory to replace their losses which also makes them that much more harder to remove.

edit: i agree with the poster above me about adding more NPC 00 regions. I think that would deffinitly help the younger new to 00 alliances make a spot for themselves in eve.

Phelaen
Amarr
Ferira Innovations
Atrocitas
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:41:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: harry beanbag
Edited by: harry beanbag on 08/12/2008 14:30:39
removing logistics and jump bridges and such are not the answer. All that would do is maybe delay the blob by a day or 2.

Honestly i think its the high end moons. i say make them more available in emipre and lowsec, crash the market for dyps and prom and you'll see a less need for the super blob. CCP stated they want people to move out of empire and play in 00 but without the income generated by the people already holding space, you cant match them in a long scale engagement. Its too easy for people already holding territory to replace their losses which also makes them that much more harder to remove.

edit: i agree with the poster above me about adding more NPC 00 regions. I think that would definitely help the younger new to 00 alliances make a spot for themselves in eve.



delaying the blob and making logistics harder by removing the jump bridges makes it so that even the largest alliance will have more trouble covering all their borders, since the huge blob will just arrive to late if they don't spread it out to more systems. eventually that will result in them choosing to own less space, giving smaller entities a chance to own something
I agree with the moons. at 50k a unit a dysprosium moon makes 840m a week. that's just to much for something that requires no TIME investment, just 800m or so for a good defended pos.

Gaius Xenon
Gallente
Digital assassins
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:41:00 - [56]
 

People just need to realize old days are gone and you'll all be happier. If you care about 0.0 sov and moons, blob up, else live in empire or npc space and you can do fine really.

Regarding small alliances being able to contest space - that's now just a hot-drop, cap killing opportunity for alliances/groups with more capitals, and when the smaller alliances lose their dreads/carriers, small alliance will have a lot harder time replacing them than large space holding alliances with billions in moon minerals, hence invasion/contesting of space ended.

There is a formula for small alliances to hold space if they want to without joining a power bloc or setting up lots of standings:
* Don't hold a station too close to a power bloc - they could view that as a potential staging point for an attack on them.
* Don't hold any high end moons
* Don't be too successful and active if you are pvping against a large alliance - they might get annoyed by that and take you out even though you might not have any of the above two.

I believe this makes available possibly some constellations in Pure Blind, maybe some other lower value border constellations that are not major pipes/jb locatiosn in a couple other areas, and I guess Cloud Ring during times when larger alliances have not wanted to rent it out to someone.

In the end, CCP will not roll back the game mechanics that would make small alliances as sov holders in 0.0 possible, because it is too large of a change.

Gaius

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:50:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: The Mittani on 08/12/2008 14:50:27
nostalgia is a fallacy in eve just as elsewhere; people revise history into a rosier picture than it was

in early 2006 there were four power blocs (soco, ra, d2, bob)

today there are four power blocks (rsf, nc, bob, aaa/se/rol)

while i think titan doomsdays are the stupidest addition to the game since the t2 bpo lottery, the core complaint of your op has nothing to do with 1. reality 2. titans or jump bridges

ps: this is actually a remarkably serious thread i don't know why i am adding to this disease with a real reply, must be slipping

Draahk Chimera
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:00:00 - [58]
 

I belive a complete overhaul ov what actually causes sov is in order. Here is my humble idea (based somewhat on Oveur's talk on one of the fanfest videos).

Sov 1 is obtained in the traditional manner. Plant a pos and keep alive for 5 days.

To reach sov 2 you need presence. To meet the minimum quota, 1 person from the sov claiming alliance needs to be online in system for a minimum of 12 hours combined time (from dt to dt), or 2 people for a minimum of 6 hours, or 3 people for a minimum of 3 hours (this should be the lower limit). When the qouta for 1 day is met the sov goes up to sov 1.1 (for all intent and purpouse rounded down to sov 1). By day 5 the sov is 1.5 and rounds up to sov 2. If at any day the presence qouta isnt met the sov ticks back 1 step from sov 2.0 to sov 1.9. the highest number that can be met by presence alone is sov 2.0.

Sov 3. After sov 2.0 you can continue to increase your sov claiming by utilizing resourses. If a minimum of X m3 of minerals is mined and/or a miminum of X faction ships is destroyed by alliance members between dt and dt sov vill tick to 2.1. At day 5 the sov will round up to 3 and cyno jammers and jump bridges can be installed. If however the mining/ratting qouta isnt filled the sov ticker goes down and the day it reaches 2.4 all such modules goes offline.

Sov 4 is reached just as today. Have 3 station systems with sov 3 blahdiblah.

This will ensure that it will be almost impossible for the major alliances to control empty systems where no one lives simply to ensure no one lives there. It will also give means to disrupt an alliance sov rather then capital blobbing. A small allince with fighting spirits and good skilled hac pilots can keep hitting ratters and miners until sov ticks down.

Also. Another idea posted long ago in games development would be the ability to "invite" agents to your outpost. Either from the local pirates or from the opposing empire. That way a shortage of belts in station systems will not prevent presence or resourse utilizaton.

Aceoil
Caldari
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:08:00 - [59]
 

To destroy a power bloc, one has to think outside the blox.

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:12:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Aceoil
To destroy a power bloc, one has to think outside the blox.


or have bob help steal their targets


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