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blankseplocked Does anyone see a problem the way Eve is headed?
 
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Beldarann
Gallente
Akuten Shi
Posted - 2008.12.08 09:33:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Beldarann on 08/12/2008 09:34:00
I've played Eve since December '03 and 2 days ago I went past the 5 year mark. And I'm seriously wondering and a worried about the future of this game which though it frustrates me sometimes I still very much enjoy.

The problem as I see it is that Eve is polarising into basically two power blocks who I think within a not too long period of time will control all of 0.0. Sure there are different alliances but these alliances are gonna basically come down to either being NC friendly or GBC friendly.

I worry that this game is gonna grind itself into stagnation, where any attack on one alliance will result in the entire power bloc that alliance was in nuking the hell out of the aggressor.

Of course then the way alliances will fix this is to attack as a power bloc, but of course the defender has a significant advantage as NC proved recently and as Bob proved at the beginning of this year. Then of course you factor Titans into it and DD'ing people trying to take jammers down in an already laggy system because of the numbers people felt they had to bring to even have the remotest chance of success.

Any small alliances out there that try to avoid choosing a side would likely either have to choose an power bloc to side with or get their backside kicked by one of them. In other words this game is well on the way to being run and controlled by literally a handful of people who control the power bloc's.

I do think there is a danger of us seeing a time where skirmishes may be as much pvp as people can hope to see, large battles for space wont happen because the defender has the advantage and the attacker wont be able to bring a force sufficient to unseat the defender. All this means horrible stagnation for the game.

People can say what they like but this is happening, the recent history of Eve proves it, and I honestly don't know what can be done to stop it.

Anyway just wanted to put down what I was thinking. I've tried to leave smack outta this post though so if you're gonna reply, try and make a thoughtful post the smack only makes you look like an idiot.

Barbaro55a
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.12.08 09:48:00 - [2]
 

WeLcoMe to Eve, mAke friEnds oR doN't hAVe aNY disPRo.

Reverand Pastor
Caldari
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:00:00 - [3]
 

I hear people raging about the state of eve all the time, What is missing is solutions to the problem. Having said that I believe a new sov system is in order as pos's have made this game grind to a halt at times. Among other things jump clones, titan bridges etc, give unprecedented logistics to cover huge space in short time. Its a neccesary evil in the game and blaming alliances for playing the game thats put in front of them is not fair or correct. You play the hand dealt nothing more nothing less.

Vanessa Vasquez
Caldari
Quantar Swords
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:00:00 - [4]
 

I agree with the op, but there's nothing to change that. Though the "problem" has nothing to do with power blocks. What you'r talking about is just, that size matters. Laughing You'll see exactly the same thing when small alliances fight. The bigger one wins, it's that simple.

And yes, it is sad!

pi314159265
Caldari
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:07:00 - [5]
 

Yes, I totally agree. I miss the old MC and Outbreak etc... Just basically a handful of guys who really made headline news or freelancers. But this game is developing into a much tougher for pilots of small groups to freelance.

I think CCP should do something to these moon minerals or whatever. Just provide less incentives for people to form up a huge napblob and more incentives for small groups of pilots who choose to keep their autonomy in a sense. Thats my 2 cents.

Kal'Kalagan
Minmatar
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:18:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 08/12/2008 10:23:46
The answer is simple, remove jump bridges and the jump bridge ability of Titans. Traffic will re-appear in the pipes, more small gang warefare will take place. Alliance will be forced to reduce their space holdings if they want to effectively defend them. Small alliances will have a chance of remaining independant and warefare will gradually become inter-regional gain as oppssed to the 3 massive power blocks controlling pretty much everything.

Jump bridges and Titans have ruined a lot of good stuff in Eve thats for sure. Crying or Very sad. Combined with capital blobs skill is no longeer the major factor in Eve, its who can bring the most numbers - thats got to be wrong.

Milkman Dani
Gallente
Ugly 5tick
SUBLIME CREATIONS ALLIANCE
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:19:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Reverand Pastor
I hear people raging about the state of eve all the time, What is missing is solutions to the problem. Having said that I believe a new sov system is in order as pos's have made this game grind to a halt at times. Among other things jump clones, titan bridges etc, give unprecedented logistics to cover huge space in short time. Its a neccesary evil in the game and blaming alliances for playing the game thats put in front of them is not fair or correct. You play the hand dealt nothing more nothing less.


Rev, make a great point, the sov system needs to change from pos's to something else, maybe some sorta bunker control system within the system, I don't know. I think that the sov system needs to change in a way so that the pos's we do set up in systems that alliances control, would then allow for the cap ship building and other stuff. Solutions would have to come from the people who are currently running the power blocs, since they are the ones that are ultimately doing what's being done. CCP ought to get all these alliances leaders into a meeting or something and come up with some ideas, then the dev team works with them to get something tested. At the rate right now, we're all sitting in pos's waiting for something to happen, that won't happen, or watching as our enemies come in with massive caps fleets to take out posses.. Seriously, I don't think there's anyone out there that likes killing pos's just to put up more that will end up getting blown up anyway.

Anyway, I would much rather see cap fleets and sub cap fleets beating on each other over system sov instead of pos's. Shooting cyno jammers are important because they keep the system clear of enemy caps jumping in, so that won't stop. Killing pos's for the sov is just ******ed to me, and feel we need a better system, that's all I'm trying to say.

Wollari
Caldari
Phoenix Industries
Wicked Nation
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:35:00 - [8]
 

Yes, but poses still produce a huge amount of ISK. And if this won't change too, the posses will still be something big to fight for and keep alive.

If someday the Sov Holding Feature would be removed from the posses to something different, perhaps we should combine Sov with pos mining. For example: a moon harvester will only give max 25% of their minerals if the alliance don't hold sov and 100% with Sov 3 ( 50% with Sov 2 and 75% with Sov 2)

Then the alliance must keep the sov to hold the moons and make the big money out of their space. This will keep the fights for sov but moves the fights from the pos warfare to something different.

I know that then most calculations for reactions will fail, but you must have a goal to fight for, and it should not be pos warfare.

I would rather fight for something that my opponnent would get lesser money out of their moons. It should also be possible to let the sov drop from 3 to 2 if an assault to a single sovereignty holding point was successful and a full drop if you've had a successfull assault on several points. so you've the time to get it back to 3 in a shorter time rather then 6 weeks.

Elfaen Ethenwe
Caldari
Infusion.
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:41:00 - [9]
 

The bunker control idea, thats been tested in FW has from my involvement in it proved to be pointless as it just encourages large blobs to bounce from bunker to bunker to defend them. The abolishment of jump bridges is the most effective way ive seen of re-introducing traffic to 0.0 and thus the gankfleets of small corps would be reborn.
I dont think you can stop people napping everything within 5 regions as both powerblocs seem to have done, if thats how they wish to survive then thats there choice. money is obviously more important to those people than the pvp aspect. Im not critising that choice, but it isnt one i would follow. Because of this, the pvp alliances have had to replicate this 'nap to blob' attitude to compeate.

Some corps and alliances do still do small scale roaming, but the limitations on this make fights non existant. Good small scale pvp corps can ''raid'' pritty much any region in 0.0 and get out alive but the targets open to you and the point where you have to run are much earlier now the nano nerf has come into play and its all about how quickly you can get into warp.

It'd be very nice if eve became acessable to all again, not in a way that low sp players are as effective as high sp players if they group up and blob enough (which has been ccp's idea of dealling with the sp gap for years now, which in turn has caused the problem) but instead some form of ballanced pvp, that doesnt require blobtastic fleets to achieve basic objectives.

Its not as simple as NERF THE BLOB!! it needs real thought and real solutions. Something ccp has never managed, but ill also note that no one has ever come up with.


Firkragg
Amarr
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:45:00 - [10]
 

to be fair eve has pretty much always been a case of a couple of power blocks facing off against eachother. There is still small alliance fighting happening (off the top of my head i can name shade taking immortal dragons stations as one). The problem in eve atm isnt the big fights, they are fine. The hard bit is the lack of objectives for small gangs. CCP has so far claimed that stations services and pos mods outside stations were to give small gangs something to do but really you still need a big fleet for these.

BogWopit
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.08 10:59:00 - [11]
 

How about removing the entire standing system and the only thing you get to see is if a pilot is in your corp / alliance or not.

Just a thought.

Kal'Kalagan
Minmatar
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:02:00 - [12]
 

Back in the day we in Veritas had so many fights in the N-Rael to Scalding pipe with Red Alliance. We'd have travellers usning the pipe and so would they - they'd always be action there 24 hours a day in one form or another. The of course there were the freighter escorts which were always the catalysts for big fights and of course the plex's.

Nowdays everyone just jumps to whereever it is they need to go. No real risks involves at all. Jump Freighters and increasing carrier cargo bays to take BS's made it worse. If you want to fight you go to someones home systems and run the risk of getting blobbed, DD's, capital blobbed and probably all of the above. Small gangs have no chances in these situations and with little traffic in the pipes due to jump bridges its a fairly dull existance in most Eve regions.

If it wasnt for regiosn like Curse or Syndicate I'd probably have quit by now.

Goberth Ludwig
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:05:00 - [13]
 

Jump freighters, Jump bridges, Carriers, and now the new Outpost Sized Gates everywhere; you have to be really lazy or dumb to lose a ship travelling nowadays.

- Gob

K3nsh1ro
Caldari
Most Wanted INC
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:05:00 - [14]
 

this game is becoming boring and boring how the days pass

Misanth
Amarr
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Limitless Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:21:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kal'Kalagan
Back in the day we in Veritas had so many fights in the N-Rael to Scalding pipe with Red Alliance. We'd have travellers usning the pipe and so would they - they'd always be action there 24 hours a day in one form or another. The of course there were the freighter escorts which were always the catalysts for big fights and of course the plex's.

Nowdays everyone just jumps to whereever it is they need to go. No real risks involves at all. Jump Freighters and increasing carrier cargo bays to take BS's made it worse. If you want to fight you go to someones home systems and run the risk of getting blobbed, DD's, capital blobbed and probably all of the above. Small gangs have no chances in these situations and with little traffic in the pipes due to jump bridges its a fairly dull existance in most Eve regions.

If it wasnt for regiosn like Curse or Syndicate I'd probably have quit by now.


I was there, in Veritas, as well. Things were alot different in the size of gangs fighting yes, but there's not only the jumpbridges (pos/sov system in place) and titan jumpbridges that made logistics 'too easy'. It's a couple of other aspects as well.

POS was spammed then for another reason. The old system pre-sov was simply way better. Yes you could take a station in short time while roaming. Yes, there was no real fortress feeling when defending. But it was equally easy to take it back. And what was worth anything, was plexes. Today you want moons, and you won't lose an outpost if you don't lose sov warfare. I.e. everything that matters now is your POS, which generally is best fought at/defended with caps, which needs a support fleet, etc.

Imho the best way to make a more fluent 0.0 would simply be to remove the whole sov system that was implemented then. Moon minerals is too valuable as well. And we need more entry routes in 0.0, the bottlenecks should be in low sec. More entry points, less worth in moons, no sov system (anyone can build their supercaps anywhere, as long as they can keep their pos alive, will open opportunities but also create fights).

Outposts will be vulnerable. POS won't be the bread and butter. No jumpbridges. No cyno gens on POS, etc.

But no, even back in the time we're talking about, there was discussions about powerblocks taking over EVE. This game isn't dying. It's just way too easy to defend things, and it promotes blobbing in 0.0. Apart from that the game is fine.

hawat92
Gallente
OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL
Legiunea ROmana
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:21:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: hawat92 on 08/12/2008 11:24:09
First, Destiny is a Triumvirate alt corp if I'm not mistaken.
No smack here but the point is important.

Sov system is certainly kind of boring.
CCP said they were brainstorming about it (and that is scary considering).
But.

Eve Online is a politics game as much as a commerce game, an NPC one and a pvp one (I don't talk about industry, I'm allergic). If you want to be part of the game in 0.0, you nowadays have to : 1 - be able to align a cap fleet 2 - have some friends who might help you do so / protect its deployment.

Am I happy with the polarisation of the fronts ?
I would be more as a pilot if i had multiple targets / small fun stuff.

But Eve is not that atm.
You want to wreck havoc and **** off everybody ? You pay the consequences and live in NPC regions. Plenty of money to make ratting here and you can continue ****ing off people ; though the lack of structure / objectives may discourage your pilots in the long run.
You want to enjoy 0.0, its moons, the protection of its sov system ? You play it fair to the players. Nowadays, it means engaging oneself in the conflict which has driven Eve for a long time now between GBC "I want to control all of 0.0" and its opponents, "us carebears in caps".

As long as this conflict, which can be felt through all Eve activities, runs free, such is the game.
Polarisation of Eve politics shall last a bit because it has to. Then we may see once more smaller conflicts, probably.

Npc space, low sec and empire are pretty much open to everyone.


Shadowsword
Gallente
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kal'Kalagan
Edited by: Kal''Kalagan on 08/12/2008 10:23:46
The answer is simple, remove jump bridges and the jump bridge ability of Titans. Traffic will re-appear in the pipes, more small gang warefare will take place. Alliance will be forced to reduce their space holdings if they want to effectively defend them. Small alliances will have a chance of remaining independant and warefare will gradually become inter-regional gain as oppssed to the 3 massive power blocks controlling pretty much everything.


That wouldn't work. With the overlord/renter scheme introduced by Bob, whatever the logistical strain is, there is no hard limit anymore to the amount of space you can control. Who care if some renter get is ship ganked because he didn't pay attention to intel? The really important logistic would be under heavy escort anyway, or not easily gankable.

Your proposal would change nothing besides making logistics even less fun that it is right now.


OP: It's been like that since a long time already. It was already that 18 months ago, when the RSF and NC had an unofficial anti-bob defensive agreement, and when Bob, bob pets and LV were cooperating together.

Nyveg
Minmatar
Hyperborea Re
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:32:00 - [18]
 

I agree that jump-freighters, -portals, -bridges etc. have been taking the edge off.

Vasili Z
Minmatar
Cosmic Odyssey
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:33:00 - [19]
 

I for one like seeing that one alliance on the map can hold various regions all over Eve and not have to worry about defending them because they have thousands of pilots on call from countless friendly alliances.

darth solo
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:46:00 - [20]
 

i totally agree. his post is actually spot on.

the large alliances that have the isk making moons get more powerfull each day and buy titan after titan, they have more isk than they can spend. and isk wins wars.

When titans dual doomsday 1-5 man cruiser gangs u know that we have a serious problem, hi PL o/.

im staying away from 0.0 politics for quite a bit, it just isnt that much fun.


d solo.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:47:00 - [21]
 

I've been saying it for a long time, and I still think I'm correct: We need at least 4 more NPC 0.0 regions like Curse.

DrDooma
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:50:00 - [22]
 

In the case that you described, a battle of attrition will be thought with one side eventually loose more then the other and then we back to where we are now or where we were a year ago when D2 collapsed.

So sit back and enjoy the show or even better, make your own.YARRRR!!

cheese monkey
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.08 11:59:00 - [23]
 

iused to think about that the game, but then i realised that there is actually more to eve than holding sov. dont tell goons tho.

thoth foc
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Bog***it
How about removing the entire standing system and the only thing you get to see is if a pilot is in your corp / alliance or not.

Just a thought.


Personally I like this idea, but i dont really think it would solve the problem..

i dont think there is an obvious simple answer..


Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:03:00 - [25]
 

Reintroduce nano bs if you want more small scale combat. Nothing encouraged small scale pvp more than the fun factor.

Other than that EVE is a political game just as much as anything else. You can't disregard that aspect unless you want to set yourself up to fail at the endgame. Also I see plenty of new, young alliances coming up and looking to claim space. Some of them will succeed just as todays space-holders started somewhere aswell. It just takes more time and dedication since the competition is ever increasing.

Splash Whale
Gallente
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:04:00 - [26]
 

A proper solution to this, as has been stated by numerous of people, is more NPC 0.0 space and making logistics for large 0.0 sov empires harder while not making the smaller ones impossible for small groups.

Introducing NPC 0.0 between empire space to split up it's regions would therefor be a good thing. It will make eve less hub-centralized and shift alot of the trading to different locations, thus making it harder to just get all the fuel for POS to the wanted location in deep 0.0 space.

There is just too much 0.0 space that can be contested at this moment, and 0.0 space with sovereignty is usually extremely quiet apart from the ratting systems. NPC 0.0 on the other hand is always alive and kicking with alot of smaller PvP going on. More people will move into the npc 0.0 simply because it is more fun and it wont be as supercrowded as current 0.0npc is. Huge blobs will decrease in size and everybody is happy.

Malachon Draco
Caldari
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:10:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Fred0
Reintroduce nano bs if you want more small scale combat. Nothing encouraged small scale pvp more than the fun factor.

Other than that EVE is a political game just as much as anything else. You can't disregard that aspect unless you want to set yourself up to fail at the endgame. Also I see plenty of new, young alliances coming up and looking to claim space. Some of them will succeed just as todays space-holders started somewhere aswell. It just takes more time and dedication since the competition is ever increasing.


I don't entirely agree with you Fred. Yes, Eve is a political game, but you act as if it requires mastery at diplomacy to get a big coalition together. Generally, its a lot harder to keep the number of 'allies' down. Triumvirate is perhaps a bit of a special case, with the attitud we regularly display on forums and ingame, but I doubt it would be difficult for us to join an existing powerblock if we wanted to.

And none of the young alliances will be able to claim space unless they join one of the powerblocks, that I am certain of.

As for changing the game, its possible, but I doubt CCP would want to go for it. What CCP could do is: remove warp to 0, remove jumpportals and jumpbridge networks and make sovereignty usage based instead of POS based. That would force alliances to stay much closer to home, thus reducing the size of conflicts. And it would also remove the necessity of helping each other. With all the fast transport possibilities, an enemy in Fountain could already be considered a potential threat to Tenal and Branch. If fleets can no longer move so fast, then you don't need an ally 30 jumps away to protect yourself.

Shadoo
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:23:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Shadoo on 08/12/2008 12:24:29
Introduce more NPC 0.0 stations and sov in existing regions that do not have them currently. Add quality agents and unique content to those stations and consider some kind of reward (in standings, etc) to empires currently residing in those regions.

Encourage roaming alliances by giving them NPC stations to base from deep within enemy territory, limit Sov 3 systems, nerf highend moons and limit the offensive abilities of titans.

Let people fortify their outposts if they so wish, but introduce a penalty to ratting/mining/exploration if you choose to claim sov (and jam).

You can still effectively live & have fun as a nomad alliance today, thou your options are pretty much limited to Stain, Delve, Fountain, Venal, Outer Ring, Pure Blind, Curse and Syndicate. What's common amongs those regions?

And yes -- some people have too much isk and if you go to Delve or Stain -- you better be prepared for it or end up like Darth said if you don't know how to handle living outgunned, outskilled and outmanned. But if you know how to handle yourself -- you can have a grand ol' time with pvp 23/7 and great loot.

Originally by: Malachon Draco

And none of the young alliances will be able to claim space unless they join one of the powerblocks, that I am certain of.



And yet you've been proven wrong already on this thread -- all you have to do is look at Cloud Ring.

Fred0
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco

I don't entirely agree with you Fred. Yes, Eve is a political game, but you act as if it requires mastery at diplomacy to get a big coalition together. Generally, its a lot harder to keep the number of 'allies' down. Triumvirate is perhaps a bit of a special case, with the attitud we regularly display on forums and ingame, but I doubt it would be difficult for us to join an existing powerblock if we wanted to.


Maybe you're right. I'm just gonna comment at one bit. "get a big coalition together" - It requires an endless amount of work to coordinate 5 alliances well, the more you add the more difficult it gets. Add in some ego's on a couple of sides and it will never work unless you smack them down hard.

Besides, nothing could be easier than standings but standings really are just like wedding promises, it's after the ceremony that the work really starts. Because after that you have to live with eachother and then you get pets that starts to **** in the spouses sandbox and god knows what. :)

Anyways, not my intention to derail this. So I'll fade back now again.

tikki
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.12.08 12:26:00 - [30]
 

I totally agree that moving gear around now is very easy and practically risk free. The advent of Carriers, then Jump Bridges and titans and finally Jump Freighters means that those holding space can move assets around risk free.

Therefore the only threat is a huge powerblock taking their space....hence encouraging a big napfest.

A lot of the fun careers, such as skirmish warfare gang, have therefore been seriously affected by this.

I miss the days where an alliance was forced to move assets through space to get them to the destination.


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