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Kwint Sommer
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.07 00:57:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
For a trader that has the margin trading skill, it becomes possible to place more buy orders than one has assets (that being the point of the skill). What happens when you buy enough to completely deplete your cash on hand? Do you go into negative cash? Do your remaining buy orders go away?


If a buy order is filled for which you do not have the available cash that order simply gets wiped out and the person who tried to fill it gets an "order nolonger available" message and has to try selling it again. Even if someone was only trying to sell you 10 units on a 1000 unit order, if you don't have the money that order gets canceled in its entirety but your other orders won't be affected.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.07 01:32:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Lord Zarcam
Quick question this time (I hope).

When placing a market Buy order for a module (for reprocessing purposes) for say a 3 jump area and someone comes in that is outside this area but places a region wide buy order, and are offering a higher purchase price, their order will override mine everytime, right?

Likewise, if someone has a region wide order and I offer a higher purchase price but for a 3-jump area, I would win those orders within my 3-jump area?

Just trying to confirm the machanics of the market. I'm I looking at this correctly?

Thanks!


Correct. There are two exceptions to this rule, however. One of them, quantity restrictions, has already been addressed. The other is completely invisible to the seller. Margin trading allows players to create buy orders larger than their finances actually will allow to complete. This means that on occasion, you might see a opne buy order that you think you can sell to, but if the buyer cannot cover the expense of buying it, the sell will fail. At one point this would simply lead to a complete inability to sell an item, if the Margin traded order was best price.

I'm not certain if this has been addressed, as I no longer sell modules, I buy them, melt them, and sell minerals. It was a somewhat rare occurrence to my experience before, but was occasionally highly annoying.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.07 01:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Originally by: Tasko Pal
For a trader that has the margin trading skill, it becomes possible to place more buy orders than one has assets (that being the point of the skill). What happens when you buy enough to completely deplete your cash on hand? Do you go into negative cash? Do your remaining buy orders go away?


If a buy order is filled for which you do not have the available cash that order simply gets wiped out and the person who tried to fill it gets an "order nolonger available" message and has to try selling it again. Even if someone was only trying to sell you 10 units on a 1000 unit order, if you don't have the money that order gets canceled in its entirety but your other orders won't be affected.



Meh, shows me what I get for not flipping the page Very Happy

They have apparently fixed the problem I had encountered in the past then :)

Johnny Rockefeller
Edge Technologies
Posted - 2008.12.07 06:02:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Johnny Rockefeller on 07/12/2008 06:02:51
Edited by: Johnny Rockefeller on 07/12/2008 06:01:59
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Hexxx explains how to interpret all of this amazingly well in his workshop. I think you can find it by googling 'hexxx.rar' if you need to know more.


I've heard about this workshop but I haven't been able to find a copy of it. Apparently it was moved to eve-files.com after it's original hosting site went down, but it doesn't seem to be anymore. All I get in a Google search are mentions of it on these forums and some very sketchy looking sites that I don't think I want to download anything from. Is it still hosted somewhere? I'd very much like to check it out.

Edit- Sweet, I'm not a ! anymore.

CornerStoner
Posted - 2008.12.07 18:11:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Johnny Rockefeller
Edited by: Johnny Rockefeller on 07/12/2008 06:02:51
Edited by: Johnny Rockefeller on 07/12/2008 06:01:59
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Hexxx explains how to interpret all of this amazingly well in his workshop. I think you can find it by googling 'hexxx.rar' if you need to know more.


I've heard about this workshop but I haven't been able to find a copy of it. Apparently it was moved to eve-files.com after it's original hosting site went down, but it doesn't seem to be anymore. All I get in a Google search are mentions of it on these forums and some very sketchy looking sites that I don't think I want to download anything from. Is it still hosted somewhere? I'd very much like to check it out.

Edit- Sweet, I'm not a ! anymore.

I uploaded it for you. Here ya go!

Johnny Rockefeller
Edge Technologies
Posted - 2008.12.07 18:25:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: CornerStoner
I uploaded it for you. Here ya go!


Awesome, thanks!

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.08 14:37:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: CornerStoner



I uploaded it for you. Here ya go!


Thanks for that Cornerstoner, I wanted a copy as well.

LadyOfWrath
Caldari
Ships N Stones
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.12.08 16:14:00 - [38]
 

This is a great idea as an alternative to having a new thread as it allows a proper mesh of new players getting into the market with veterans able to help (as long as its not direct competition Laughing). I'll be happy to lend a hand every now and then and I'll try and keep up with this thread however I am usually very busy. I wish you the best.

Regards,

LoW

Joseph Shephard
Posted - 2008.12.09 02:26:00 - [39]
 

I have a question regarding pricing of T2 BPOs. I'm a new manufacturer/trader with my own little startup corporation Arcelor Capital. It only took us about a week of T1 production to begin looking through contracts at the T2 BPOs just so we could begin dreaming about the future. The thing we noticed is that most T2 BPOs cost about 3 Billion ISK for a cheap BPO and can be tens of billions of ISK for a high-end T2 BPO. The question I have is how can any corporation actually value a BPO so highly given the fact that every patch and change can dramatically effect the value of your product and of your BPO?

The best example I can think of is this: I saw an Armor EM Hardener II BPO with asking price of 15 Billion. The product is highly profitable to manufacture. Every item you make can be sold with relative ease for (rough estimate) 500,000 ISK. You can make about 12 of the modules each day. Hence, your daily profit without expending too much effort is 6 Million ISK. That was with decent ME, PE, and a good time multiplier on manufacturing, etc.

6 Million ISK per day in profit is no small amount, but then I got to thinking about the fact that it would take (2500 days = more than six years) of profit to pay off that BPO. Now, of course, you could be profitable if you manufactured for a year, made 6Million*365days = 2.2 Billion ISK in profit, and then resold that same BPO for 15 Billion ISK again.

Then problem is, a lot could happen in a year that could make it impossible to sell your product, your BPO, or both profitably. For instance, mineral prices could change and eat away at your profit margin, making the BPO worth less. A new item could be introduced into the game that serves a similar function -- therefore diminishing or obliterating demand for your product. A whole new system of T2 or even T3 BPOs could be introduced that would diminish the demand for your BPO or your product. Maybe after three years there has been a decrease in the Eve playerbase that makes it impossible to sell all 12 units per day.

Given the long time horizon on T2 BPO investments, is there any real economic reason why someone should be willing to make a one to six year investment in them when any part of the economy (large or small) could be altered by game mechanics or developers at any time?

Thanks for any input -- clearly I'm not buying one of these for a while, I was just interested in how it all works.

Treelox
Posted - 2008.12.09 02:32:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Joseph Shephard
I have a question regarding pricing of T2 BPOs. I'm a new manufacturer/trader with my own little startup corporation Arcelor Capital. It only took us about a week of T1 production to begin looking through contracts at the T2 BPOs just so we could begin dreaming about the future. The thing we noticed is that most T2 BPOs cost about 3 Billion ISK for a cheap BPO and can be tens of billions of ISK for a high-end T2 BPO. The question I have is how can any corporation actually value a BPO so highly given the fact that every patch and change can dramatically effect the value of your product and of your BPO?

The best example I can think of is this: I saw an Armor EM Hardener II BPO with asking price of 15 Billion. The product is highly profitable to manufacture. Every item you make can be sold with relative ease for (rough estimate) 500,000 ISK. You can make about 12 of the modules each day. Hence, your daily profit without expending too much effort is 6 Million ISK. That was with decent ME, PE, and a good time multiplier on manufacturing, etc.

6 Million ISK per day in profit is no small amount, but then I got to thinking about the fact that it would take (2500 days = more than six years) of profit to pay off that BPO. Now, of course, you could be profitable if you manufactured for a year, made 6Million*365days = 2.2 Billion ISK in profit, and then resold that same BPO for 15 Billion ISK again.

Then problem is, a lot could happen in a year that could make it impossible to sell your product, your BPO, or both profitably. For instance, mineral prices could change and eat away at your profit margin, making the BPO worth less. A new item could be introduced into the game that serves a similar function -- therefore diminishing or obliterating demand for your product. A whole new system of T2 or even T3 BPOs could be introduced that would diminish the demand for your BPO or your product. Maybe after three years there has been a decrease in the Eve playerbase that makes it impossible to sell all 12 units per day.

Given the long time horizon on T2 BPO investments, is there any real economic reason why someone should be willing to make a one to six year investment in them when any part of the economy (large or small) could be altered by game mechanics or developers at any time?

Thanks for any input -- clearly I'm not buying one of these for a while, I was just interested in how it all works.



Their limited edition nature makes them valuable. Most people are also counting on the fact that they will recoup their purchase price when they themselves at sometime sell the bpo on.

Yes it is a long term gamble that CCP wont nerf what your T2 BPO makes, but then again often in the long term that item will come back into favor and be "boosted" back into FOTM again at some point.

The last factor to consider. Some people have so much isk, they have nothing better to spend it on. There are players that have Trillions of isk, and have nothing better to invest it in.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.09 08:42:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Joseph Shephard
T2 question


T2 BPOs are high-value assets that have a return associated with them, in that you will make ISK from them. What the ROI from a T2 BPO is, has been drastically affected by invention, so in reality, you own this overpriced print that will return a tidy ROI, but that ROI relative to the outlay is quite low. With any T2 BPO, you must know how much the item costs to invent, as the BPO owner will not be able to out-supply inventors, but you can undercut them.

The whole model of 1-2 year ROI being the essential 'value' of a T2 BPO, IMO, was thought up by some teenager, as it's a ridiculous model. However, while sellers will argue till they're blue in the face, I consider the value of a BPO to be 1 year's production at NPC station output. You can get more production from a POS, and sellers will try to value it at 18 months to 24 months from the output of a POS, but tbh, you only pay that kind of money for ultra important BPOs where you want to shut out competition or build a pile of BPOs of the same type to corner the market via manipulation and where inventors simply have no chance of competing for you. Naturally then, where inventors are shut out of the market, those BPOs are super valuable, since the output can be pricefixed arbitrarily to your liking.

The other thing about BPOs, is they themselves are tradeable commodities. While you may pay such an extortionate figure for a BPO to begin with, equally you'll also be able to sell it for an extortionate figure, and probably more than you bought it for, so by holding the BPO, it's an asset that can if you know what you're doing make you a basic income from producing from it, and also resell it for the same if not more if you need to liquidate that capital. So you are not under any obligation to actually own the BPO for the entire 12-24 months - you can always cash out whenever you need.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.09 14:45:00 - [42]
 

Seen a lot of people whine about 0.01 ISK sellers and why things are manipulated.

For this, there was a thread explaining some very key concepts of trading (manipulation, velocity trades, and pros and cons). Have a read here.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.09 14:56:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Mr Horizontal
The whole model of 1-2 year ROI being the essential 'value' of a T2 BPO, IMO, was thought up by some teenager, as it's a ridiculous model. However, while sellers will argue till they're blue in the face, I consider the value of a BPO to be 1 year's production at NPC station output.

Wow, you claim naivety on the part of those sticking to the one to two year ROI; and then follow up with an absurd comment so ironic one could only consider you're either playing or being the fool.

The only value you can attach to a blueprint is the price obtained at time of sale, no other figure is relevant. The interpretation of value is what drives the market value, and market value is therefore what ever someone feels a blueprint is worth.

The same could be said for businesses, they're only worth as little or as much as the purchaser is willing to pay for them. You do however set guidelines to value a business as the profit over n period. There is nothing different with a blueprint.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.10 23:56:00 - [44]
 

Another question sent to me via evemail, if someone would like to answer this that would be great. I've got no answer that I feel is adequate for this question.

Question: I'm looking to get into manufacturing after having spent the majority of my short eve life in missioning. I've got a small amount of isk saved up, a couple billion, and I'm wondering what the best course of action would be. I've identified several T1 items that I'm interested in and that I have ran the numbers for.

1. Should I purchase the BPO's off the market and then research them or buy researched bpo's? (I've found some researched but they are quite a bit more expensive).
2. How should I handle the movement of minerals from, say, Jita to my manufacturing hub?
3. How should I decide on where to concentrate my sales if the main hubs show fairly even sales data? (split it amongst them?)

Thanks in advance.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.12.11 01:42:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Another question sent to me via evemail, if someone would like to answer this that would be great. I've got no answer that I feel is adequate for this question.

Question: I'm looking to get into manufacturing after having spent the majority of my short eve life in missioning. I've got a small amount of isk saved up, a couple billion, and I'm wondering what the best course of action would be. I've identified several T1 items that I'm interested in and that I have ran the numbers for.

1. Should I purchase the BPO's off the market and then research them or buy researched bpo's? (I've found some researched but they are quite a bit more expensive).
2. How should I handle the movement of minerals from, say, Jita to my manufacturing hub?
3. How should I decide on where to concentrate my sales if the main hubs show fairly even sales data? (split it amongst them?)

Thanks in advance.



I'll take this one

1. Opinions are split and it depends on how much time you really have or want to invest in the operation.

Option A, you purchase the BPOs researched already. If you scour the sell forums and contracts market very often you can get originals researched at a steal. This of course, takes time and it may take longer than you planned since you have to wait for BPO you want to come up.

Option B, you purchase the non researched prints and join a research alliance or have someone research them for you. You get what you want, and very likely get it sooner. The trader in me mandates that you go the research alliance route since its pretty easy to get a research alt up, and you don't have to worry about handing your prints over to someone you don't know. I'm to lazy at the moment, but I'm sure someone can link to one of the many research services.

2. It depends on your volume really. In the case of my capital production arm, I contract most of my mineral movements out. Paying a freight service to pick up my minerals and move them 3 or 8 jumps out depending on my build location.

Alternative you can move them yourself. This of course assume you can fly a freighter, since you will be burning through that much minerals. You can supplement this by having perfect reprocess and purchasing compressed minerals from one of the few compression services still left in EVE as well.

Also, you can add to your growing stock by placing buy orders at your build location for minerals and accepting the steady, albeit slow, influx from there as well. This will alleviate some pressure on the amount of minerals you might need.

3. If you are getting into T1, margin is important but volume is king for the most part. Its better for your inventory to move fast than it is at the best regional price. Sure someone may be selling Thorax's at 7m in Ours, but maybe you can move twice the amount at 6m in Dodi for instance.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.12.12 04:55:00 - [46]
 

The short version of the 'velocity' argument:

A typical large volume low margin trade is hauling Tritanium that you bought in a mining system for 3.0 ISK over to a minor trade hub and selling it for 3.3 ISK, then immediately turning around to do the same haul twice in the time it would have taken you to haul that load of Tritanium to the major trade hub to sell it for 3.5 ISK. Hauling the same load the same distance for less profit is someone else's burden.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:30:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: flakeys on 12/12/2008 14:32:10
Simple question qnd i think i wont like the answer.

My corp buys regional and on corp wallet.Needless to say my deliveries boxis filled to the roof.Here's the thing: Only one of my tradechars flies the freighter and she picks up only the large batches.Now to put the items in delivery to herself takes me ages.I can leave it in deliveries but then it's even more confusing snce i have 2 regions under my wingthus have an enormous amount of stations where stuff is.Also on deliveries you can not set it so it says unlike in your own assets how much items are in that station and the jumprange.

Question is there a faster way to do this?


SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository
Zzz
Posted - 2008.12.12 18:07:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: flakeys
buy order collection question


The answer you don't want: courier contracts, get everything to one station per system for the freighter runs. Can be slow/unreliable waiting for someone to take the jobs, cost a bundle to do a lot of them.

The answer you seem to have overlooked: Corp assets has a search function that allows you to search on things like item type groups and minimum volume.

I don't do regional buys, but I do multi-jump buys in different regions. Using the search, I don't even undock if there isn't enough. Once I'm local to a large pick up I'll do a quick rundown of the main deliveries tab just looking at stations I'm close to for the main one.

Oh, and if you do a wide variety of items you should be able to get an idea of which items to search for based on how much of your orders have filled.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.12 18:41:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: flakeys on 12/12/2008 18:43:50
Originally by: SonO***host
Originally by: flakeys
buy order collection question


The answer you don't want: courier contracts, get everything to one station per system for the freighter runs. Can be slow/unreliable waiting for someone to take the jobs, cost a bundle to do a lot of them.

The answer you seem to have overlooked: Corp assets has a search function that allows you to search on things like item type groups and minimum volume.

I don't do regional buys, but I do multi-jump buys in different regions. Using the search, I don't even undock if there isn't enough. Once I'm local to a large pick up I'll do a quick rundown of the main deliveries tab just looking at stations I'm close to for the main one.

Oh, and if you do a wide variety of items you should be able to get an idea of which items to search for based on how much of your orders have filled.


Thanks for answering ,

I do a hell of a load of different types so searching for volume is not the way i go unfort.Seeing that i have about every T1 and a load of T2 items on order and about 600 orders so far , i usually look at how much items in total are in certain stations and only pick up those with X amount and let the rest for when the pile is big enough.Matter of not having much time and diversifying a lot so i do not have to update my order X times a day.

So both the contracting as working with the volume search will not help me unfort in this.Guess i'll just have to get used to spending a night on delivering it to my freighter char once every 2 or 3 weeks Very Happy

Dakt NiRuthgar
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:33:00 - [50]
 

Afternoon all.

First off, thanks for all the information and this thread. People like yourselves make me believe that some goodness exists in the human race after all ;)

I'm a VERY new player that has caught the trader bug - in fact it really was why I got into this game. Unfortunately, you need money to make money, so I've been - out of necessity - missioning to create a capital base - but have recently discovered an opportunity as a market fencer for some of the manufacturers in my corp that don't want to try and play the market.

I've been reading here and there and a lot of people talk about market manipulation. I have a vague sense of what they mean, but I didn't want to assume anything and was wondering what that meant in more concrete terms.

Thanks everyone.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:45:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dakt NiRuthgar
I have a vague sense of what they mean, but I didn't want to assume anything and was wondering what that meant in more concrete terms.

Thanks everyone.


Manipulation is the effort you exert using your inventory and orders in an attempt to move prices one way or the other for your benefit, whether that be profit or lowered cost for building.

There are many ways to actually manipulate (see my post regarding trit some time back... thanks everyone for dumping inventory Laughing ) but in the end its about using various skills as a trader to move prices in your favor.

Dakt NiRuthgar
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:57:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria


Manipulation is the effort you exert using your inventory and orders in an attempt to move prices one way or the other for your benefit, whether that be profit or lowered cost for building.

There are many ways to actually manipulate (see my post regarding trit some time back... thanks everyone for dumping inventory Laughing ) but in the end its about using various skills as a trader to move prices in your favor.


So as a concrete example - if I want to lower the prices of trit - I would stockpile trit over a long period of time and start flooding the market with trit to affect the overall market price of trit? (or start major mining operations to convert roids into trit on the market?)

Or if I want to increase prices, to use margin traded buy orders to set up inflated buy orders so that people will sell me at high prices. If there are enough of these, then you might be able to fool the rest of the community that this is what the prices should be, and watch it climb?

Or (simply) buy all the sell orders and repost at higher prices?

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:02:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Dakt NiRuthgar

So as a concrete example - if I want to lower the prices of trit - I would stockpile trit over a long period of time and start flooding the market with trit to affect the overall market price of trit? (or start major mining operations to convert roids into trit on the market?)

Or if I want to increase prices, to use margin traded buy orders to set up inflated buy orders so that people will sell me at high prices. If there are enough of these, then you might be able to fool the rest of the community that this is what the prices should be, and watch it climb?

Or (simply) buy all the sell orders and repost at higher prices?


More or less, yes its that simple.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:14:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Tasko Pal on 12/12/2008 21:15:17
Originally by: Dakt NiRuthgar
.

I've been reading here and there and a lot of people talk about market manipulation. I have a vague sense of what they mean, but I didn't want to assume anything and was wondering what that meant in more concrete terms.


Market manipulation is a collective term for a variety of methods for changing the market expectations or perception of some group of players. These players can be globally, in a region, or even a single station. You may be attempting to manipulate a single good or a whole industrial sector.

For example, buy up all of a good in a region and list it at a higher price. A naive or lazy buyer who doesn't check the history or prices outside the region, might end up buying your product at the higher price. Their perception is that whatever the price is on the market is good enough. Enough of these people and you've made isk.

The dysprosium and promethium producers have some pricing power. By withholding supply, they can increase the price somewhat. It's not market manipulation in my sense above, but it does change other traders' perceptions. If you know the timing of the pulses of supply, you can profit from the resulting instability. Akita T gave an example using the new alchemy reactions. Because the production chain for alchemy is so long, deep pocketed manipulators can start and crash the alchemy market. Every time the price of complex reaction products like ferrogel (the favorite) goes up, alchemy chains start up. Then the chains are halted when the ferrogel drops. This is the buy phase for the market manipulator since ferrogel from the alchemy chains are likely to be dumped on the market.

Moving on, the revelation of the t2 POS reactions exploit is another market manipulation. Note that most of the people who created such threads (saturating the Eve forums, I might add) emphasize the urgency of doing something now. These are (pretty successful) attempts to change global expectations. Namely, as a result we expect higher market prices for dyspro, prom and the reaction product thereof. Further, it sounds like people are having good success convincing other products to increase even though the relation with the exploit isn't obvious (eg, hexite market).

A final example is the discussion thread discussing a particular good that the player wants to steer. This is effective, if there is some obvious market opportunity. A common approach is to claim puzzlement at some market behavior, say the low price of zydrine. You'd then ask "Golly, why has zydrine gone so low?" Alternately, one could aggressively use very smug reverse psychology (eg, "zydrine is going to drop a few hundred more. Any fool can see that!") and bask in profitable humility as MD gleefully corrects your forum-based folly. You can casually mention that zydrine spin while in some other discussion. Sometimes subtle works sometimes something more blunt works.

Now there is the other side of the coin. Namely, how to spot market manipulation attempts. This is a highly profitable skill. I personally applaud every time someone boasts about their successful manipulation because it means more people will try. Busting market manipulation can be more profitable than the market manipulation would be. A market manipulator always has to worry about this.

Dakt NiRuthgar
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:36:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Now there is the other side of the coin. Namely, how to spot market manipulation attempts. This is a highly profitable skill. I personally applaud every time someone boasts about their successful manipulation because it means more people will try. Busting market manipulation can be more profitable than the market manipulation would be. A market manipulator always has to worry about this.



Curious as to what you mean by "busting" market manipulation? Do you mean blowing the whistle on it here in MD or using it to make money off of someone else's manipulation?

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.13 00:06:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Dakt NiRuthgar
Originally by: Tasko Pal
Now there is the other side of the coin. Namely, how to spot market manipulation attempts. This is a highly profitable skill. I personally applaud every time someone boasts about their successful manipulation because it means more people will try. Busting market manipulation can be more profitable than the market manipulation would be. A market manipulator always has to worry about this.



Curious as to what you mean by "busting" market manipulation? Do you mean blowing the whistle on it here in MD or using it to make money off of someone else's manipulation?


You have the order reversed. First, make money off of someone's manipulation then blow the whistle to seal the deal. Cool More seriously, as mentioned above some forms of market manipulation involve pushing the market (via buying or selling large quantities) away from its long term stable point. Generally other people sooner or later will catch on. If someone catches on before you close with a profit and can react fast enough, then they can steal your thunder.

Eg, suppose you scheme to buy out all the widget IIs, a reasonable volume good in empire. But someone is sitting on a months supply (through empire) of widget II's and dumps them right as you push up to the final price. You're probably going to get burned badly. OTOH, if nobody has any in stock and it takes a week to make more widget IIs, then you probably can sell off the widget IIs you bought (and perhaps a pile you saved up ahead of time) before new production can drive the price back down.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.14 01:23:00 - [57]
 

Thanks a bunch to all of you who have taken the time to answer questions. To anyone holding back, please feel free to ask your questions here, its a safe place. Very Happy

Dakt NiRuthgar
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
Posted - 2008.12.14 02:08:00 - [58]
 

When placing buy orders to either a) melt down or b) resell, how do you know when it's worth it to take your industrial out to the various areas that buy orders may have been fulfilled to centralize everything and then a) melt them down or b) resell them? Do you just keep tabs on your orders and make a calculated guess as to how much of it is amassing in particular areas?

Also, is buying raw materials for relatively cheaper prices far away from major hubs and then transporting them to the hubs a profitable way to trade? How about taking implants and skill books and then moving them to minor hubs such as Torrinos or Agil to supply those that are coming out of or headed into low sec?

Dakt NiRuthgar
Amarr
Vanguard Frontiers
Posted - 2008.12.14 02:11:00 - [59]
 

Also, here's something that I found a while back on these forums and I was wondering if y'all could critique/comment on the tactics that this person pulled together? (Sorry, don't remember who it was.)

1) Recycler. Putting up region-wide buy orders for cheap loot either to re-sell, ship to Jita or reprocess into minerals. You'll get cheap goods slowly trickling into your hangars, but if you have a limited number of orders (my max is around 40 atm) I don't think it's worth it. I get the impression that this is only done if you have spare orders and isk lying around. Could be wrong, tho... Pros: nice margins. Cons: Slow? Need alot of orders, every buy order could potentially have been a sell order generating a greater profit.
2) Major hub retailer. Buy cheap stuff from Jita, haul to a major regional hub like Dodixie (or vice versa) and engage in 0.01 isk wars. To me this seems to be the most "easiest" way to trade as it doesn't require much thought or planning, only an ability to check and update your orders every so often until sold out. Pros: you don't need to use so many orders as you're only trading from one station. Cons: requires constant attention, up against possible bots?
3) Minor hub retailer. Here you're banking on convenience and the belief that players would pay a premium to equip their ship NOW rather than waste time jumping to a regional trade hub. Requires more planning and analysis which I personally find fun. If you choose to service an armpit region, it is also possible to establish a region-wide monopoly and realise enormous margins exceeding 200% (my best result so far). To see the same volume of sales as a major hub, you might have to diversify the goods you sell and trade in more than one station, meaning you'll consume more orders and time hauling stuff. Pros: less competition, greater margins. Cons: slower sales, greater need for orders.
4) NPC goods trader. I tried this for a week, manually browsing the market for cheap npc goods and using contracts to set up a regional logistic network and then selling remotely. An unfriendly UI made this form of trading unworthwhile, and I get the impression that you'll need a freighter to make the same millions that you get selling to players. Pros: ignored by most traders. Cons: tedious.
5) Speculator / manipulator. Never done this, but I heard it can be very profitable (and risky). Try to force a price change that you can profit from by either speculating with BS and rumors or buying out goods and reselling at a higher price. I assume this works best with goods that take a long to time to bring to market. Pros: $$$ for little effort. Cons: very risky.
6) Arbitrage. Use a service like eve central to identify buy and sell orders in different regions that'll generate a profit. Virtually the same as hauling NPC goods, except the sellers/buyers aren't static. I tried this early in my eve career. It's a decent method to generate isk when you're poor and just bought your first Iteron. Pros: braindead easy. Cons: Time-consuming, little to moderate profits, one-off opportunities.
7) Boutique retailer. Rather than trade on the market with mass-produced goods, you can specialise in "boutique" items like BPOs and rare items/ships via the contract system. I like to think of this trader as the "art collector" who ships exquisite items from one wealthy patrician to another. But I'm not really familiar with this strategy (too poor to experiment).

Treelox
Posted - 2008.12.14 03:20:00 - [60]
 

Dakt your list of different trading styles is pretty much right, some would disagree a bit on some of the specifics one way or the other, but as a general overview what you posted above is correct.

Also realise too, that some players merge some of those together into a hybrid of sorts. Minor Hub + Recylcer in a mission running hub, for example.


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