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Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.02.10 17:04:00 - [391]
 

After a couple days playing with the market graph (from a traders perspective, did it for years as a lazy mission runner, so y'all gotta love me a little) I have some more coherent questions than that last barrage:

1) what's the exact difference between the donchian channel and the median spread/lines? From what I have read both seem to describe the high and lows of the day, but which represents orders (and does it represent active or new orders), and which represents actual trades?

2) Is there any way to adjust the axes, and if not has CCP made any official responses to requests for that feature? Because the volume axis has ridiculously low resolution.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.02.11 03:04:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Tehg Rhind
what's the exact difference between the donchian channel and the median spread/lines? From what I have read both seem to describe the high and lows of the day, but which represents orders (and does it represent active or new orders), and which represents actual trades?

The boundaries of today's Donchian channel are the lowest 'low' and the highest 'high' prices of the past five days. So the daily spreads do define the Donchian channel, albeit indirectly.

Current standing orders are not reflected in the Market History data (table or chart): it reports only data for completed transactions. Recall that each completed transaction is the result of match an ask and a bid (one or more of which was a standing order at the time of the match). The recorded daily lows and highs are trimmed of 'outliers', although the exact definition of what constitutes an outlier has not been precisely stated in public as yet. Some have suggested that transactions with prices outside two standard deviations of the daily mean are excluded.

Note that although the chart indicates that the yellow dots represent daily median prices, convincing evidence was presented more than a year ago that the yellow dots actually represent daily mean prices.


Originally by: Tehg Rhind
2) Is there any way to adjust the axes, and if not has CCP made any official responses to requests for that feature? Because the volume axis has ridiculously low resolution.

There is no way to adjust the axes in-game. If you export the data—I understand that there is software to parse Market History cache files to other formats, such as CSV, though I'm not aware of an available, compiled free-standing application program that does so—then you can make whatever graphs using whatever graphing tool(s) you want, e.g., OpenOffice.org.

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.02.11 04:53:00 - [393]
 

Edited by: Tehg Rhind on 11/02/2010 05:02:44
Edited by: Tehg Rhind on 11/02/2010 04:59:51
man, what I wouldn't give for the full market data files and a week with JMP.

Anywho, thanks for the clarification, and I was still a little confused about the donchian channel and found this much better explanation than any other I have seen Edit2: Holy cow that is word for word in your description. I am really cracked out right now....sorry.

"Today's upper and lower bounds on the Donchian Channel are the highest and lowest recorded prices (outliers are excluded) from the past five days"

That part in bold is definitely the key I have been trying to figure out. This was on evelopedia, but in a different section than the one I was looking for before. With this knowledge in hand I can quite comfortably remove that donchian channel.

Does anyone actually use that? The median lines give you the exact same data but with actual resolution and no time lagged smearing. If you are looking at a years worth of data I could see its use, but in looking at a month or even three months what use does that have other than making you see patterns that aren't there?

Edit: Have there been any serious attempts to get CCP to get the market graph more user friendly? I don't mean dumb it down. Keep everything in there, hell add more, but allow us to do things like change axes and make markers bigger or smaller. It's a potentially valuable tool but in its current form it hides and obfuscates a lot of things with its low resolution etc. etc.

If you are right about the median actually being the mean (which if that is true that is a MASSIVE mistake cause there aint a normal distribution on the market as far as I can tell) then the then all the data you need to generate that chart is in the "show table"....

There's no good reason we can't have a more adaptable graph on here.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.02.11 05:31:00 - [394]
 

Originally by: Tehg Rhind
If you are right about the median actually being the mean (which if that is true that is a MASSIVE mistake cause there aint a normal distribution on the market as far as I can tell) then the then all the data you need to generate that chart is in the "show table"....

The evidence that the values are means rather than medians seems conclusive to me, and when I logged the issue in a bug report, it was confirmed by a Bug Hunter and split into two defects. The defect I had submitted was later tagged as 'Fixed in: TEX 1.3', but I don't know what 'TEX 1.3' is/was, and I have never seen any evidence that any related fix was published to Tranquility, nor any mention of a related fix in any patch notes.

I agree that there is no reason to think that transaction·prices are normally distributed.

Kera Delacour
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.02.11 13:36:00 - [395]
 

Hi...

I'm planning to offer my corporation members the ability to buy shares in our corp as a form of profit sharing amongst the members. I already know that if they leave they will still be paid dividends, and I'm fine with that... if they leave their money invested they deserve to be paid dividends on it.

What I'm curious about is a rumor I recently heard that if you hold shares you also receive corp mails for the corp you hold shares in? I don't think this is true but thought I'd ask here to be sure.

Thanks!

Kalni
Requiem.
DEFI4NT
Posted - 2010.02.12 13:57:00 - [396]
 

I'm pretty new but want to be going the business giant way. Loved the shpiel on the starter agent (missions didt really match up to dream tho). I read loads and basically buy lo sell hi (duh!!) but wot to trade between basic ship equip and frigates which is OK and the next step? SHould I join a corporate, will they actually help or just another tax?

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.02.13 01:41:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Kalni
SHould I join a corporate, will they actually help or just another tax?


The impression I have gotten is that trading is often more a lone wolf setup than other professions. With something like mission running or piracy having a group of like minded individuals is good as you can share advice on fits and work together on lvl 5s or (in the piracy case) put together a hunting pack, etc..

With trading people are willing to help but only to a point, because they won't tell you all the trade routes they use, it simply doesn't make sense for them to do that.

That said, a trader can maintain a symbiotic relationship with people from other professions. Say you are in a mission running group, they get a lot of product X over time. This product doesn't sell well in their region, but does in another. The market does account for that, but not much, therefore if you are in a corp with them you could be their go to guy for unloading that product at a higher margin than they would get on the market, and you would have a steady stream of product. Even if you are paying a little bit higher than the market does, you never have to play the .01 game (time is money)

To be honest I don't know how effective that really is, but in my old mission corp we had someone who would do that.

If you are new to EvE, and want to get into trading, let me suggest finding a good mission running corp. For one running missions will help you get some starting capital, but it will also let you learn more about what fittings you get a lot of while running missions in region X, and what you can realistically expect to sell them for.

Mission runners can be one of your greatest sources of trade. They loot a lot of low value equipment, they are generally lazy (really its not lazyness its priorities) enough to sell that same low value equipment for pennies on the dollar, and, best of all, they are also lazy (again its actually priorities) enough to pay double price on another low value item when they need it instead of jumping to the next system and buying it there. Understanding which low value items are which can make you a lot of money.

Long story short, mission runners are very important to many traders income, and becoming one would give you the starting cap you need and help you understand their mentality better, therefore I would suggest looking into one of their corps.

Iva Posavec
Takhar Matari Militia
Posted - 2010.02.13 06:30:00 - [398]
 

Hello MD. I have been looking through the different resources but I believe I have missed something as I can't seem to find it, so apologies for such a silly question.

When I place buy orders for let's say 2 weeks, and the order is never filled do I get my isk back that was held to cover the order? Also, is there any fee's that I will not get back even if the order isn't filled?

Hope someone can help.

Lui Kai
Better Than You
Posted - 2010.02.13 06:33:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Iva Posavec
Hello MD. I have been looking through the different resources but I believe I have missed something as I can't seem to find it, so apologies for such a silly question.

When I place buy orders for let's say 2 weeks, and the order is never filled do I get my isk back that was held to cover the order? Also, is there any fee's that I will not get back even if the order isn't filled?

Hope someone can help.


Yes, you get your isk back. The broker fees, however, are lost.

Iva Posavec
Takhar Matari Militia
Posted - 2010.02.13 06:44:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Lui Kai


Yes, you get your isk back. The broker fees, however, are lost.


Thank you very much, and only 3 minutes to get a reply. Much appreciated. Very Happy

Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2010.02.15 19:25:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Kera Delacour
Hi...

I'm planning to offer my corporation members the ability to buy shares in our corp as a form of profit sharing amongst the members. I already know that if they leave they will still be paid dividends, and I'm fine with that... if they leave their money invested they deserve to be paid dividends on it.

What I'm curious about is a rumor I recently heard that if you hold shares you also receive corp mails for the corp you hold shares in? I don't think this is true but thought I'd ask here to be sure.

Thanks!


When I first began selling corps, I would sometimes keep a single share of the corp as a keepsake. I quickly discontinued this when I learned that this would cause me to get EVE mails alarming me to wardecs against those corps, which I had no business knowing.

Your shareholders won't get corp mails, but they may get information you'd prefer not be cascaded.


Raderon
Posted - 2010.02.21 13:21:00 - [402]
 

Hey everyone,

I just have a question about wormhole selling.
I've found an empty C4 with a static C5 that is literally packed full of sites (some 26 resource sites with 24 combat sites).

The static today is a C5 Pulsar that doesnt have nearly as many sites but might have a better entry way..

I guess all I'm asking is which would be better to try to sell? I don't know much about wormhole markets et al but the C4 would appear better to me.. then again I may be wrong.

Capheira
Posted - 2010.02.25 21:51:00 - [403]
 

Hey,

When trading, would it be best to invest heavily in one item stock or spread it across a large number of different items? After observing the market it's clear that there are huge buy orders up and it either shows they're really rich or trying to take advantage on that item in particular.

Thanks.

Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.02.26 18:30:00 - [404]
 

Originally by: Capheira
Hey,

When trading, would it be best to invest heavily in one item stock or spread it across a large number of different items? After observing the market it's clear that there are huge buy orders up and it either shows they're really rich or trying to take advantage on that item in particular.

Thanks.


I suggest spreading your trade amongst multiple items... and believe me, most of those people are doing the same. (They're just filthy filthy rich).

Originally by: Raderon
Hey everyone,

I just have a question about wormhole selling.
I've found an empty C4 with a static C5 that is literally packed full of sites (some 26 resource sites with 24 combat sites).

The static today is a C5 Pulsar that doesnt have nearly as many sites but might have a better entry way..

I guess all I'm asking is which would be better to try to sell? I don't know much about wormhole markets et al but the C4 would appear better to me.. then again I may be wrong.


I would suggest selling the C4 - a static C5 beats selling an actual C5, imho.

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.03.06 18:35:00 - [405]
 

What's a good app for handling audit logs? Been germinating an idea for my corp and involves massive audit logs, so I would need a good app to handle them, no way I could do it just by looking at them. Best bet would be something that would give me a .mdb file. I don't think EWA does this, which is where I get my db files from right now.

Any thoughts?

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.03.06 23:52:00 - [406]
 

another question. Is it possible to dump the historical market data tables (not the graph, the table). If not thats simply ridiculous. I mean, I could write them down....but damn that would take forever.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.03.07 08:27:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Tehg Rhind
another question. Is it possible to dump the historical market data tables (not the graph, the table). If not thats simply ridiculous. I mean, I could write them down....but damn that would take forever.

yes

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2010.03.09 04:29:00 - [408]
 

Awesome stuff. Anyone have any clues on the Audit logs? I am trying to set up a centralized item dump for some friends, but I need to be able to handle the audit logs outside of game.

Right now I am trying to do this with some pretty lame Access manuevers, but I am afraid I am loosing data points. Would really appreciate it if someone could help me find an app for this. Otherwise my corpies are going to kill me....

Mingus Sin
Posted - 2010.03.16 20:07:00 - [409]
 

IPO question.

When someone starts a bond and offers so many shares at a certain price, does that person actually issue shares in game or do they just keep track of all the shares and who owns them to pay the dividends?

Thanks

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2010.03.19 19:59:00 - [410]
 

Both methods are used. Each has pros and cons.

Generally, a shell corporation is set up and all shares are issued to investors. Dividends can then be paid using the corp interface. Shares can also be sold directly by shareholders.

Some people prefer to maintain a virtual share ledger and make manual payments.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.03.23 09:41:00 - [411]
 

Edited by: Grozen on 23/03/2010 09:41:50
Like me Varo manual payments are ftw:P

A stupid question is there a person in eve that is close to having
Quadrillion

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.03.24 00:48:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Grozen
Is there a person in EVE that is close to having a quadrillion ISK?

Unless someone represents that they are close to having a quadrillion ISK, and passes some type of verification, we're stuck with conjecture. So here's some speculative number-crunching, which I'm sure others can improve upon, that points toward the answer 'no':


1. ISK per se

In the QEN for 2009-Q2, it was reported that there was '300 trillion ISK on all accounts within EVE, of which 170 trillion are on active paying accounts'.

In the QEN for 2009-Q1, it was reported that 'average ISK per active account' had reached 'about 500 million ISK' and that there were '265,000 total accounts'. This lets us estimate that there was roughly 133 trillion ISK on active accounts then.

Extrapolating from 133 TISK in 2009-Q1 through 170 TISK in 2009-Q2 (27.8% growth per quarter) would put the total across active accounts today at around 350 TISK.

There's sure to be a bunch of ISK held by corporations, as well, and it's unclear whether or not that ISK was included in the above reporting. In theory, such corporate ISK could have been counted by attaching it to each CEO, for example.

So for the sake of further exploration of your question (below), let's estimate total ISK in New Eden, in the form of ISK, at 360 trillion...

... even if someone had it all, that's not 'close to a quadrillion'.


2. Adding in assets

Here things get messy. You immediately run up against the problem of knowing (with whatever degree of certainty you have about the estimate made in point 1) that any attempt to sell off a sufficiently large set of assets to push into 'close to a quadrillion' territory would be practically impossible.

It you had, say a third of all ISK (120 trillion ISK) and you also had assets that, when appraised one-by-one were valued at amounts that add up to 500 trillion ISK, then you'd know that there simply isn't enough ISK for people to send you to fully charge those appraised prices (500 > 240).

You could probably convert a lot of assets (though not some key ones, like T2 BPOs) to a lot of ISK through processes like insurance fraud [1] and (for some goods) sales to NPCs, but that would be a redonkulous undertaking for 500 TISK-worth of goods. Hence my suggestion that it would be practically impossible.

The more assets you would sell to other players, the less ISK would remain to be spent on your remaining assets. You own sales would ultimately devalue your remaining assets (in ISK terms)... your 500 TISK in assets would be sold for less-than-500 TISK...

... and (120 TISK + less-than-500 TISK) is also not 'close to a quadrillion' ISK.


TL;DR: 'No.'




[1] An impressionable few might prefer the newspeak term 'insurance exchange rate' to 'insurance fraud', but on a ship-by-ship scale, the process is clearly a form of non-exploitive (from CCP's perspective) fraud (from the NPC insurer's perspective). By any common sense understanding of insurance, exploding your own ship to claim the insurance is fraud against the insurer. The insurer and insurance are no less real than the ship: all are virtual, in-game entities.

SkrepyKOKO
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:09:00 - [413]
 

Hi,

I would like to ask if there is application which shows what you have traded most, with most profits/most profitable items, per day, week, month, etc., sort of statistics of traded items per account. I looked for them but noone from them has function like this in their description.

Thank you.

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:30:00 - [414]
 

Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 25/03/2010 14:32:09
Originally by: SkrepyKOKO
Hi,

I would like to ask if there is application which shows what you have traded most, with most profits/most profitable items, per day, week, month, etc., sort of statistics of traded items per account. I looked for them but noone from them has function like this in their description.

Thank you.
Try EVE trader http://code.google.com/p/evetradercs/

SkrepyKOKO
Posted - 2010.03.25 14:58:00 - [415]
 

I see that I forget to mention that I am looking for that app as station trader, without need to search for trade routes, found few now, going to try them, maybe if you have advice which is the best one available atm. Thank you.

Mathrin
Posted - 2010.03.30 18:48:00 - [416]
 

I am interested in buying an Navy issue Omen but I don't know where to begin. where can i find the price and possibly a seller?

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.03.31 01:10:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Mathrin
I am interested in buying an Navy issue Omen but I don't know where to begin. where can i find the price and possibly a seller?

There is a whole section of the forum where you could post a 'Want Ad': Want Ads & Trades, if you want to post to try to find a seller. Faction ships and modules are sold by Contract in-game, not on the Market, so you could try a search for such ships in the Contracts window.

Beware of scams, such as pilots wanting to direct-trade you or contract you a regular Omen that has simply been named 'Omen Navy Issue'. Prefer contracts, examine the ship carefully, look closely at its 'Show Info' window, and don't rush to close a deal. Judging by Jita Local, regular ships named to look like faction ships are used more commonly for attempted frauds than are many other SKUs.

Grozen
Caldari
Titan Core
Posted - 2010.04.14 11:01:00 - [418]
 

I've always been wondering how dangerous can reactions be?On paper they look easy to make and does not require much tending but how full is the market?I noticed that few items are oversupplied.Obviously it has to be in 0.3 system so my question is are there "quiet" 0.3 systems or everything gets camped once in a while.

Dratic
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.04.24 10:35:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Dratic on 24/04/2010 10:35:43
Originally by: Grozen
I've always been wondering how dangerous can reactions be?On paper they look easy to make and does not require much tending but how full is the market?I noticed that few items are oversupplied.Obviously it has to be in 0.3 system so my question is are there "quiet" 0.3 systems or everything gets camped once in a while.

The market for reactions has dropped in profitability quite a bit as supply has met increased demand from dominion. Theres still isk but theres a slower rate of return on it.
Risk wise it depends where you put your tower if it is on an empty moon in a quiet spot it probably won't get touched. Theres always a risk of it getting attacked so you may want to write off the tower from the start and hope you're lucky.
Most of the risks are going to be with the ships you are transport the stuff in and out.
Just take the normal approach to low sec, have a scout or use something cloaky.

Jo'Din Karrasso
Posted - 2010.04.24 12:25:00 - [420]
 

Hey all,

I'm just starting out trading NPC trade goods, and I was wondering if there is a list anywhere of which corp sells which trade good. Put together by trade good that is.

Example:
Garbage sold by:
Corp A
Corp B
Quafe sold by:
Corp C
Corp D
etc.

Anyone know of a list like this? Or a way to pull the information from the database?


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