open All Channels
seplocked Market Discussions
blankseplocked Market Discussions Ė Ask Questions Here
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (22)

Author Topic

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 15/07/2009 02:02:54
NEW MARKET DISCUSSION FAQ ON THE EVE WIKI

After reading the discussions and arguments over how and where new players can ask questions and get answers, I had an idea for a new thread. Please read this entire post before responding as I hope to address everything all at once.

Purpose:
Ask any market related questions you feel you canít find in the stickies. If you ask a question that can be answered by reading a specific sticky then Iíll simply post a link to the appropriate sticky and I encourage anyone else reading the thread to do the same if they know the location of the specific resource that will answer the question. If you read a question and know the answer, please feel free to answer it in a polite manner. If you donít think you are capable or donít want to waste your timeÖ.then donít. Itís that simple. This is an attempt to create a central place for new players to ask questions and find quick solutions.

What this is not:
This is not the thread where you abuse someone asking a question or flame an answer. This thread will have noob questions most likely asked by new players, if you have a problem with that then please avoid this thread. You have been warned. If you donít want to participate in the question/answer process then please avoid this thread.

Why:
The biggest complaint Iíve seen is that new players arenít reading the stickies and are starting new threads to ask simple questions. After looking around the forums at the information available I came to the conclusion that the problem may not be entirely related to laziness as we previously thought. There is A LOT of information provided in the stickies at the top of this forum and A LOT of information contained in the threads on the first several pages. As a recent college graduate I can say one of the most difficult parts of most of my classes was writing papers over topics that had tons of resources available on them. It was very difficult to sift through all of the information that could easily be a 30+ page paper and try to write a 20 page maximum length paper.

We have to remember that we have been along for the ride and have taken in most of the information as it became available. New players are hit with all of the information at once and are expected to be able to go through it all and make sense of it.

Basic Guidelines:
Obviously there is no way for me to enforce any rules for this thread other than to report the posting so Iíll call this section ďGuidelinesĒ.

  1. Donít flame/troll/break forum rules

  2. Please be polite when asking/answering questions, if you canít handle this please avoid this thread.
  3. Donít post asking for investors in this thread, that type of thing needs its own thread.
  4. Please avoid topics that would be better left for their own thread so that a full discussion could be had. If you want lots of feedback about an idea, do that idea justice by giving it its own thread. Or ask if a specific topic/idea should have its own thread, there may be 15 threads that thoroughly cover that topic that we can point you towards. If you read them and have something new then a new thread might be appropriate.
  5. Avoid this thread like the plague if you donít want to see noob questions or questions that you think are noob questions. There should be no question as to the types of things you will see here.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:34:00 - [2]
 

Example Questions:

Example Question: How much should I be charging to do courier contracts?

Possible Answer: Several factors can go into answering such a question such as how much are others charging? How much is your time worth? How much collateral do you have? You should start by checking the Sell forums to see what others are charging and to see what the requirements/features are of their service. Taking that information into consideration along with the value you put on your time you should be able to come up with a pretty good idea.

Example Question: What banks are there in Eve?

Example Answer: You can find the list of banks in the stickies at the top of this forum under ďMarket Discussion Resource ThreadĒ

The Goal:
The goal of this thread is to be able to provide a place for new players to ask questions without having to start a new thread or be afraid of the responses. As new players ask questions they will start to see that most of the answers can be answered by stickies or information that is on the forums and they will get used to using those resources. One could argue that this will become a crutch and make people not want to use the stickies but I think the opposite effect is more realistic. I see it as a way to point people to the stickies and other resources found on MD in a nice way rather than beating them up the first time they make the mistake of not doing research.

Ricdic
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.12.04 23:52:00 - [3]
 

Good luck with the thread and good idea creating it. Will probably need stickify to save daily bumps some time in the future if utilised.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.12.05 00:17:00 - [4]
 

I'll contribute and answer questions as well. Come on, I'm famous! Very Happy

Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
Posted - 2008.12.05 00:44:00 - [5]
 

Awesome idea, good luck.
Let me know if you need any help.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.05 03:25:00 - [6]
 

Thanks for the offers of help, please feel free to answer anything you feel capable of. As far as stickied, I'm not sure if that is a good idea or not as this somewhat addresses the issue of people not reading the stickies. If it is unpopular and has trouble staying on page 1 then it either isn't needed or it means MD is becoming more active and I will simply post a "Question/Answer" of the day. I got the idea from something I do with my students in class where each day they get a topic such as a new technology or some sort of question that they have to research and respond to or simply read and be informed. We'll see how it goes.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.05 05:43:00 - [7]
 

Great idea.

However, I doubt that it will work as well as you might hope.

I do not believe the newbie that bounces into this channel and asks question #7 for the 203rd time is going to bother reading threads that do not immediately leap out with answers to their immediate concerns. Some newbies will, and for that reason alone it's worth trying.

Jade Grimpkin
The Sunshine Touring Company
Posted - 2008.12.05 06:16:00 - [8]
 

Great idea. Anything to help the new trader start out is a good thing. it's a fun thing to do and the joy should be shared. I'll try to chip in with some answers if i know 'em.

Jade

p.s.
feel free to drop by and ask questions here too "trader's academy" in game channel. Wink

Simon Mance
Posted - 2008.12.05 07:57:00 - [9]
 

Ok, I've read the stickies so I apologize in advance if the answers were in there and I missed them. I also searched the forums.

I have been researching an item for possible trading, and it seems like a good prospect as it shows fairly high volumes and a decent spread between buy and sell orders. However there are a couple of things that show up in the price history tab that don't make sense to me --

1. Despite the above-mentioned spread and volume, high and low prices on each trading day are usually identical or very close. Are outlier trades excluded from the price history tab? Or are only filled sell orders being reported, and not buy orders? Or something else?

2. Even on days for which there are identical (or near-identical) high and low prices for this item, the donchian channel shows a fairly sizeable spread. Is this because it is including information that had been excluded from the high/low columns? Or does the spread represented by the donchian channel on a particular date incorporate more than just that day's trades? (Perhaps the previous x days' trades? If so, x = ?)

Many thanks in advance.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.05 08:21:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Simon Mance
Ok, I've read the stickies so I apologize in advance if the answers were in there and I missed them. I also searched the forums.

I have been researching an item for possible trading, and it seems like a good prospect as it shows fairly high volumes and a decent spread between buy and sell orders. However there are a couple of things that show up in the price history tab that don't make sense to me --

1. Despite the above-mentioned spread and volume, high and low prices on each trading day are usually identical or very close. Are outlier trades excluded from the price history tab? Or are only filled sell orders being reported, and not buy orders? Or something else?

2. Even on days for which there are identical (or near-identical) high and low prices for this item, the donchian channel shows a fairly sizeable spread. Is this because it is including information that had been excluded from the high/low columns? Or does the spread represented by the donchian channel on a particular date incorporate more than just that day's trades? (Perhaps the previous x days' trades? If so, x = ?)

Many thanks in advance.


I do not believe anyone has managed to parse exactly what gets counted and how, and I'm pretty certain that CCP has never divulged their methods of collecting data for market history. There is definitely some selectivity involved somehow. You are not seeing everything, in at least some cases.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2008.12.05 08:24:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: SencneS on 05/12/2008 08:25:24
I'd recommend to all of MD if someone creates a new thread and asks a noob question the only post that should be on there is a link to this thread. Saying "Maybe you should ask here"

No reason to feed the noobs and lazy people with information. If they get an answer with their laziness they will expect an answer every time. Pointing them to the right location to ask the question means they will not only find the answer they are looking for. It will also help every other noob as they will look in a single thread.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.05 08:32:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: SencneS
Edited by: SencneS on 05/12/2008 08:25:24
I'd recommend to all of MD if someone creates a new thread and asks a noob question the only post that should be on there is a link to this thread. Saying "Maybe you should ask here"

No reason to feed the noobs and lazy people with information. If they get an answer with their laziness they will expect an answer every time. Pointing them to the right location to ask the question means they will not only find the answer they are looking for. It will also help every other noob as they will look in a single thread.


Up to a certain level I agree, but when we have a lot of people on box set release all asking lots of different questions at once, this thread is gonna get mighty complicated, especially if some reasonably complex questions get asked, or bad advice is given.

As long as there are small numbers of new folks, it's a good idea though


Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.05 08:40:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Simon Mance
1. Despite the above-mentioned spread and volume, high and low prices on each trading day are usually identical or very close. Are outlier trades excluded from the price history tab? Or are only filled sell orders being reported, and not buy orders? Or something else?


The price history will only reflect the actual transactions that have happened across the entire region. So if the item was bought and sold at the same price during the day, despite there being different prices listed on the market, it'd be that price that is reflected in the history.

So basically, what you garner from the price history is what people are prepared to actually pay for the item, regardless of the orders that are set up. If you for instance set up an order in a station somewhere else in the Forge for 1m over the best buy price where this item isn't traded and buy it yourself, you will see that reflected as the high price within the price history the next day in Jita - so the info isn't totally infallible in that it can be played with, and thus not 100% trustworthy. Therefore you still need to know the cost basis of building the item as well (if possible), to truly understand the items value.

Originally by: Simon Mance
2. Even on days for which there are identical (or near-identical) high and low prices for this item, the donchian channel shows a fairly sizeable spread. Is this because it is including information that had been excluded from the high/low columns? Or does the spread represented by the donchian channel on a particular date incorporate more than just that day's trades? (Perhaps the previous x days' trades? If so, x = ?)


The Donchian channel shows the spread of the best buy/sell order that has happened according to the price history data. So basically it presents you with the range of prices that traders are prepared to trade at. Theoretically if you have a wide channel, it should be an indication the item is volatile, while if it's narrow, the price is stable. What matters however is the little yellow dot and the lines below and above it - the yellow dot is the regional average and the lines are the high/low prices reflected in the price history. If you look closely, those lines usually touch the boundaries of the Donchian channel, thus it shows the range of high/low orders at a glance.

Hexxx explains how to interpret all of this amazingly well in his workshop. I think you can find it by googling 'hexxx.rar' if you need to know more.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.05 09:09:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Originally by: Simon Mance
1. Despite the above-mentioned spread and volume, high and low prices on each trading day are usually identical or very close. Are outlier trades excluded from the price history tab? Or are only filled sell orders being reported, and not buy orders? Or something else?


The price history will only reflect the actual transactions that have happened across the entire region. So if the item was bought and sold at the same price during the day, despite there being different prices listed on the market, it'd be that price that is reflected in the history.

So basically, what you garner from the price history is what people are prepared to actually pay for the item, regardless of the orders that are set up. If you for instance set up an order in a station somewhere else in the Forge for 1m over the best buy price where this item isn't traded and buy it yourself, you will see that reflected as the high price within the price history the next day in Jita - so the info isn't totally infallible in that it can be played with, and thus not 100% trustworthy. Therefore you still need to know the cost basis of building the item as well (if possible), to truly understand the items value.

Originally by: Simon Mance
2. Even on days for which there are identical (or near-identical) high and low prices for this item, the donchian channel shows a fairly sizeable spread. Is this because it is including information that had been excluded from the high/low columns? Or does the spread represented by the donchian channel on a particular date incorporate more than just that day's trades? (Perhaps the previous x days' trades? If so, x = ?)


The Donchian channel shows the spread of the best buy/sell order that has happened according to the price history data. So basically it presents you with the range of prices that traders are prepared to trade at. Theoretically if you have a wide channel, it should be an indication the item is volatile, while if it's narrow, the price is stable. What matters however is the little yellow dot and the lines below and above it - the yellow dot is the regional average and the lines are the high/low prices reflected in the price history. If you look closely, those lines usually touch the boundaries of the Donchian channel, thus it shows the range of high/low orders at a glance.

Hexxx explains how to interpret all of this amazingly well in his workshop. I think you can find it by googling 'hexxx.rar' if you need to know more.


Neither the graphical nor the text based market history reflect all sales. CCP either intentionally (or unintentionally) cuts some off. I've seen my own buys and sells go completely unrepresented in the market history when I get really good deals on buys, or find really high buy orders to fill. I've never tried to track near-median priced items. I suspect bell curves are involved.

The market information is a good tool to analyze typical market value, it won't tell you everything.

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.05 15:24:00 - [15]
 

Got this question in my evemail today so I'll post it and answer it. FYI, if you would rather evemail me your question for whatever reason that is fine. I'll simply post it here.

Question: How can you create corp contracts in a station where your corp doesn't have an office and/or there are no offices available to rent?

Answer: Contract the item(s) to yourself. When you go to accept the contract just accept it on behalf of your corp. The item(s) will be moved to the deliveries hangar and you can then create a new contract on behalf of your corp and select items located in the deliveries hangar. That's all there is to it.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2008.12.05 15:38:00 - [16]
 

Verry nice idea AC155 and i sure hope this helps against the numerous threads we had here lately with topics that have been discussed and handled for many times and are easy to find.

Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
Posted - 2008.12.05 16:36:00 - [17]
 

Okay, nice idea, but there's already a place where nUbs will ask the same questions over and over and over... It's called the MD forum :) Easier to click "New Post" than bothering with actually reading anything YARRRR!!

Lord Zarcam
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.05 17:06:00 - [18]
 

Thanks for opening up an avenue for questions from us noobs! There is so much information posted in just this section it is a bit overwhelming at times. There are so many methods to work the market to make money, I'm sure I've only scratched the surface.

My question is:
To go along with the above discussions on the market information data, how do you see "volume" of sales? I have figured out the price history info, but I have not found anything about volume.

Also, when looking at the market info, what time frame do you usually use? Week, monthly, etc?


I have also started trading and working buy orders recently. So far I have been able to more then triple my first investment amount. When trying to price your product competitively, how many jumps out do you try and match or beat their prices? I understand the .01 isk business (to make sure you are the lowest price) to win the sale, does this only apply to competing sales in your own station or does it apply further out such as within your system or further?

And last question (I promise), is there a list or website for wholesale vendors willing to sell directly to traders? Being a business owner in real life, buying wholesale is the only real way to make money and grow your business, and I have seen a few discussion about such ventures in this section. But not a "list" of such people.

Thanks to all those who have shared experiences, I have learned a lot as of late! And still more to learn!

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.12.05 17:26:00 - [19]
 

You can see the volume traded via the graph, its the green bar located along the bottom half of the graph, or if you choose the "See Table" button, you can actually see the individual volumes per day.

When looking at market info, the length of time you want to view is wholly dependent on the item being traded and what info you are attempting to obtain. An example of this would be the yearly graph for trit, you can see each spike corresponds with patch releases. Zero down into the 6 month view and you can trace out where the spike started circa Orca announcement. (something not easily viewable in the year view)

Your strategy of trade will change as you volume and capital increases, I won't go into specifics but I will tell you that eventually you can get to the point where individual region, or 3 jump orders, etc.. will become meaningless and you can start to focus more on individual orders strategically placed in a single station. This of course assumes your trading in what I think you might be trading in.

Post your wholesale wants in the want to buy section of the forums. You'll get bites pretty easily and its not hard to find corporations in game who are willing to setup dedicated purchase or sale contracts.

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.12.05 17:58:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Lord Zarcam
Thanks for opening up an avenue for questions from us noobs! There is so much information posted in just this section it is a bit overwhelming at times. There are so many methods to work the market to make money, I'm sure I've only scratched the surface.

My question is:
To go along with the above discussions on the market information data, how do you see "volume" of sales? I have figured out the price history info, but I have not found anything about volume.

Also, when looking at the market info, what time frame do you usually use? Week, monthly, etc?


I have also started trading and working buy orders recently. So far I have been able to more then triple my first investment amount. When trying to price your product competitively, how many jumps out do you try and match or beat their prices? I understand the .01 isk business (to make sure you are the lowest price) to win the sale, does this only apply to competing sales in your own station or does it apply further out such as within your system or further?

And last question (I promise), is there a list or website for wholesale vendors willing to sell directly to traders? Being a business owner in real life, buying wholesale is the only real way to make money and grow your business, and I have seen a few discussion about such ventures in this section. But not a "list" of such people.

Thanks to all those who have shared experiences, I have learned a lot as of late! And still more to learn!


Kazzac covered a lot of this already, but one thing I didn't see mention of is what range you need to compete at.

Most people will not bother to go to another system for a couple isk difference in pricing. Noobs might since they have very little isk. Established characters won't waste their time. If you have what they need at the lowest price in the station they are in, they probably won't move - even if there is another better price in the same system, different station.

The same goes for the selling habits of most mission runners.

Alatari
Gallente
Winterdawn
Posted - 2008.12.05 18:49:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cheopis
Neither the graphical nor the text based market history reflect all sales. CCP either intentionally (or unintentionally) cuts some off. I've seen my own buys and sells go completely unrepresented in the market history when I get really good deals on buys, or find really high buy orders to fill. I've never tried to track near-median priced items. I suspect bell curves are involved.

The market information is a good tool to analyze typical market value, it won't tell you everything.

2 standard deviations, I believe. A couple of years ago a Dev did explain which orders they drop from the market history; I'll dig around and see if I can find the post again.

Lord Zarcam
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.05 18:56:00 - [22]
 

Thanks guys! That confirms what I've been experiencing lately. I mostly trade T-2 modules because of the pontential profit margins. So far it's working well.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.05 19:37:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lord Zarcam


Also, when looking at the market info, what time frame do you usually use? Week, monthly, etc?


This depends solely on my investing time frame. If I'm looking for a "day trading" opportunity (means for me that I'm actively trading and don't plan to hold any of it when I'm done trading), then all that matters is a few day history which shows adequate volume, number of trades, and a decent balance between buy and sell orders. If I'm looking to invest in something over months, then I look at the whole year history to get a feel for what sort of events change the price of the good.

Sometimes I just nose around. For that the year time frame is best to start with. It shows you all the excitement of the past year. I can then focus on particular time frames, if there's some recent behavior that looks interesting.

Simon Mance
Posted - 2008.12.05 19:59:00 - [24]
 

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Beer Me
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.12.05 23:27:00 - [25]
 

I see a few market tools in these forums, and I'm sure there are more that my rather cursory search didn't bring up.

I've been using some homemade spreadsheets to track my purchases and sales in the attempt to aid myself in making some money. However it's becoming more of a PITA then I want.

All I need is something to track my rather limited market ventures, expenditures and profits (just buying and selling stuff, though it is over 2 characters)without me having to manually enter the data everytime something sells. Also, I run 64bit Vista, so it'd be really, really nice if it was compatible with that.

Can anyone recommend something? Simple is better tbh, I just don't want to do it by hand anymore.

Thanks so much for the advice!

MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
Posted - 2008.12.05 23:39:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 05/12/2008 23:42:02
Beer Me, please read the stickied thread "Market Discussion Resource Thread", specifically the second post which lists links to several applications (although it presently overlooks EMMA, which is listed later in that thread I referenced; hint-hint Mitnal). Also, there is another application which is called "EVEWalletAware" which the software author hasn't (yet?) asked to be included on the MD resource thread (I don't know why not).

MDD
(Edit: linkified)

Lord Zarcam
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.06 18:26:00 - [27]
 

Quick question this time (I hope).

When placing a market Buy order for a module (for reprocessing purposes) for say a 3 jump area and someone comes in that is outside this area but places a region wide buy order, and are offering a higher purchase price, their order will override mine everytime, right?

Likewise, if someone has a region wide order and I offer a higher purchase price but for a 3-jump area, I would win those orders within my 3-jump area?

Just trying to confirm the machanics of the market. I'm I looking at this correctly?

Thanks!

Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2008.12.06 18:32:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lord Zarcam
Quick question this time (I hope).

When placing a market Buy order for a module (for reprocessing purposes) for say a 3 jump area and someone comes in that is outside this area but places a region wide buy order, and are offering a higher purchase price, their order will override mine everytime, right?

Likewise, if someone has a region wide order and I offer a higher purchase price but for a 3-jump area, I would win those orders within my 3-jump area?

Just trying to confirm the machanics of the market. I'm I looking at this correctly?

Thanks!


I believe that is correct in both situations. The highest priced buy order will override all other buy orders within the area that the highest priced buy order is placed. A couple of examples:

Buy order A is placed for the entire region @ 100 p/u (per unit). Buy order B is placed for a 3 jump radius @ 101 p/u. Anyone who sells that mod within that 3 jump radius will fill the buy order B so long as they meet the quantity requirements of the order. Anyone who sells outside of that 3 jump radius but still within that region will fill buy order A so long as they meet the order's quantity requirements. Hope that helps.

Lord Zarcam
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.06 18:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Originally by: Lord Zarcam
Quick question this time (I hope).

When placing a market Buy order for a module (for reprocessing purposes) for say a 3 jump area and someone comes in that is outside this area but places a region wide buy order, and are offering a higher purchase price, their order will override mine everytime, right?

Likewise, if someone has a region wide order and I offer a higher purchase price but for a 3-jump area, I would win those orders within my 3-jump area?

Just trying to confirm the machanics of the market. I'm I looking at this correctly?

Thanks!


I believe that is correct in both situations. The highest priced buy order will override all other buy orders within the area that the highest priced buy order is placed. A couple of examples:

Buy order A is placed for the entire region @ 100 p/u (per unit). Buy order B is placed for a 3 jump radius @ 101 p/u. Anyone who sells that mod within that 3 jump radius will fill the buy order B so long as they meet the quantity requirements of the order. Anyone who sells outside of that 3 jump radius but still within that region will fill buy order A so long as they meet the order's quantity requirements. Hope that helps.


Yes. That's what I was thinking. Thank You!

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.12.07 00:24:00 - [30]
 

For a trader that has the margin trading skill, it becomes possible to place more buy orders than one has assets (that being the point of the skill). What happens when you buy enough to completely deplete your cash on hand? Do you go into negative cash? Do your remaining buy orders go away?


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (22)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only