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ArcDragon
Caldari
Ghost Data
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
Posted - 2008.12.02 15:38:00 - [1]
 

http://www.eve-mag.com/archives/893

I thought it fitting to be in the crime and punishment section, I found it last week but have not responded to it...yet.


Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.02 16:02:00 - [2]
 

Author of that article uses an out-of-game methods to attempt to compete. I personally see such people as defective in some way; like a guy who joins a card game with friends and has 3 aces up his sleeve. It is cheating.

He tries to make it sound no different than a pirate ganking a hauler... but that's just rationalization... and a fairly pathetic one at that.

My first war in this game was with a group who ran macro-miners to fund their PvP. Lot of faction ships and (surprisingly) chest-beating during that conflict. As if any victories they scored were actually earned. ugh

Pity them. They are terrified of challenge, and since they don't work for anything, nothing really matters.



Rosolo Refili
Posted - 2008.12.02 16:37:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Rosolo Refili on 02/12/2008 16:46:32
I think his point is all the big alliances do it why not him.

Just trying to compete

Your telling me BOB doesn't macro mine?

Edit: I don't mine or think it's right he is simply saying how can you compete when you have them

Aeon Starcatcher
Posted - 2008.12.02 16:56:00 - [4]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.02 17:21:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Rosolo Refili
I think his point is all the big alliances do it why not him.


I'd have to disagree. His point seems to be: "It's okay to macro because it doesn't hurt anyone". This is followed by rationalization for his actions, and finally, in an effort to draw others in, he begins showing how it is done.

A cheater confesses to cheating, says it doesn't hurt anyone, and then shows how it's done in an attempt to draw more people into cheating.

But it's still cheating. No different than using some code on a Playstation game to give your character unlimited weapons/ammo/whatever-crap is used.



And those who do it will never understand. I'm pretty well off in this game; I purchase what I want when I want it. If I lose a T2 battleship it doesn't phase me (well, the money loss doesn't phase me... stupid mistakes always bother me).

I've worked for everything I own in this game. Only twice have I taken an item from a corp hangar... both times at the direction of the corporation for a special purpose. I've never accepted 'free isk' from anyone, I've never sold a GTC, or bought/sold a character. I solo fight and generally aim for targets who are more advanced/numerous than me.

You see, I like challenge. And I don't have to cheat to win.


ChinaWillGrowLarger
Narwhals and Bacon
Posted - 2008.12.02 17:35:00 - [6]
 

I went deep into Providence 3 days ago, to a backwater system to try exploration, i've never seen so many Hulks in a system before.

Trinugget
Posted - 2008.12.02 17:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger
I went deep into Providence 3 days ago, to a backwater system to try exploration, i've never seen so many Hulks in a system before.


What he doesn't get is..it does hurt the game because all those macros take resources that players who don't/can't macro can no longer have because a macro took it.

And China, props on the C&C Generals name. I love it. :)

Faekurias
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.12.02 17:54:00 - [8]
 

gif isk

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.12.02 18:39:00 - [9]
 

Everything else is BS.


Yeah - Its ethics and honor. Pure and simple.

Honor is that which you do when no-one is looking.

To play the game you have to agree to the EULA. If you agree to abide by the EULA to play the game, and you take actions that break the EULA, you have committed an unethical act. If your children see you committing an unethical act (and they do… or will when they get old enough) - they will be more likely to commit unethical acts.

Mr. 30 yr. old American? You have no honor and you have despicable ethics.

I don’t care who “in the industry” likes or approves or doesn’t even care about your actions. Your just rationalizing like the little boy who steals a candy bar and gets caught…

Rationalization is for children.

Its against the EULA.

You do it.

You have committed an unethical act.

You rationalize it.

You are wrong.

P.S. - I have two children as well - I make DAM sure they understand ethics. Wish your dad had done the same.

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.02 19:13:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
If your children see you committing an unethical act (and they do… or will when they get old enough) - they will be more likely to commit unethical acts.


Agreed.

I'm curious if the article author tells his children what he does. Does he boast of his cleverness to them? Or keep it hidden?

Either way, it's like cheating in a friendly game of cards. How could one look one's self in the mirror when you had to resort to cheating to win? If any readers out there run macro-miners; go look in the mirror. Try to tell yourself it's not cheating. Vomit up all the rationalizations you use while looking yourself in the eye. Go ahead... give it a try.

All actions carry a price, whether they are found out or not. Those guys I mentioned in my first post, who support their PvP with Empire macro-mining... I see them from time to time. They move through local in their Rattlesnakes, or I see them posting some smack on the forums about how much better they are than everyone else. And even after two years I still just get repulsed at the sight of them. They're losers... trash. People who intentionally resort to cheating to get ahead generally are. And they will never shake that stigmata... nothing they ever do will earn my respect.

It's silly, but I have more respect for a third-world country macro-miner (who's doing it to support their kids) than a player who seeks to "optimize their playtime" so they don't have to grind.

Look at what humanity has become. ugh

Faekurias
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.12.02 19:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Faekurias
Edited by: Faekurias on 02/12/2008 19:12:48
I just farted and the carrot I'm eating suddenly tastes funny.


Stop poasting.





Laffo.

Le Poupon
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.02 19:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cat Molina
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
If your children see you committing an unethical act (and they do… or will when they get old enough) - they will be more likely to commit unethical acts.


Agreed.

I'm curious if the article author tells his children what he does. Does he boast of his cleverness to them? Or keep it hidden?

Either way, it's like cheating in a friendly game of cards. How could one look one's self in the mirror when you had to resort to cheating to win? If any readers out there run macro-miners; go look in the mirror. Try to tell yourself it's not cheating. Vomit up all the rationalizations you use while looking yourself in the eye. Go ahead... give it a try.

All actions carry a price, whether they are found out or not. Those guys I mentioned in my first post, who support their PvP with Empire macro-mining... I see them from time to time. They move through local in their Rattlesnakes, or I see them posting some smack on the forums about how much better they are than everyone else. And even after two years I still just get repulsed at the sight of them. They're losers... trash. People who intentionally resort to cheating to get ahead generally are. And they will never shake that stigmata... nothing they ever do will earn my respect.

It's silly, but I have more respect for a third-world country macro-miner (who's doing it to support their kids) than a player who seeks to "optimize their playtime" so they don't have to grind.

Look at what humanity has become. ugh


Woah.
Good points in there though
Now just take a seat back infront of your camera, replace the keyboard you smashed and have a cool glass of lemonade before you continue.
Oh and smile
Good points in there though

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.02 19:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Le Poupon
Now just take a seat back infront of your camera, replace the keyboard you smashed and have a cool glass of lemonade before you continue.
Oh and smile


No. No rage here (and no shattered keyboards either). Wink But perhaps a bit of dismay at the general direction most of humanity takes. While this is just a game, I see indications that mirror what I see in real life. That article is a prime example.

No one wants to do the work, but everyone wants the paycheck. I suppose that's some sort of evolutionary measure of efficiency; to get more gain by doing less work. But when you enter a game... agreeing to compete against other players within a specified framework of rules... certain measures such as macro-mining feel decidedly slimy.


Or is it just me? Laughing Have I become so old and outdated and hung up on honor and self-reliance that I no longer 'get it'?

Have I become a relic? Shocked

Le Poupon
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.12.02 19:39:00 - [14]
 

Depends, how many candels on your cake?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.12.02 20:28:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Le Poupon
Depends, how many candels on your cake?


47 on mine.

AKTwisted Evil

Juraka Furo
Caldari
Warped Mining
Strip Mining Club
Posted - 2008.12.02 20:37:00 - [16]
 

I would like to highlight the reason I didn't take this guy too seriously.

"...I played WoW for over a year and never even thought about macro’ing because it was a blast to be at the controls all the time...."

LOL

I have played WoW, I am pretty sure that it is the exact OPPOSITE. I love playing Eve no matter what activity. In WoW, I would probably have macros to fund my ****ing around with poor people.

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.02 22:05:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Le Poupon
Depends, how many candels on your cake?


47 on mine.

AKTwisted Evil


41 here. Very Happy

Rachel Voegel
San Matar Trucking Company
Posted - 2008.12.03 16:07:00 - [18]
 

Macro mining is just wrong in so many ways.

Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger
I went deep into Providence 3 days ago, to a backwater system to try exploration, i've never seen so many Hulks in a system before.

Where was this?

Komiliya Jenius
Posted - 2008.12.03 16:16:00 - [19]
 

Macros pay to play, so no harm done.

And the fact that there is no financial consequences to CCP endorses this fact. CCP gets money from GTC sales, reseller sells to Macro miner, CCP still wins.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.12.03 16:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Rosolo Refili
Your telling me BOB doesn't macro mine?


Why in heaven's name would any major alliance macro mine, when they have much better ISK sources. Moons, Ratting, Plexes etc. etc.

The article is one cheater trying too hard to rationalize how's he not a cheater, which is bleh in my opinion. "But everybody else is/could be doing it!" is never a valid argument on the playground, why would it be different in EVE?

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.12.03 22:12:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 03/12/2008 22:13:19
Originally by: Komiliya Jenius
Macros pay to play, so no harm done.
And the fact that there is no financial consequences to CCP endorses this fact. CCP gets money from GTC sales, reseller sells to Macro miner, CCP still wins.



Playing is voluntary, obeying the EULA is a contractural agreement. Cheating is wrong and illegal. Macro'ing is against the EULA, so it is therefore wrong.

Players who mine are effected by these Macro'r's, because their ore is devalued by the ore created by Macro Miners. Everything in the game is affected by these players.

Regardless of how you want to spin it - giving your word and then doing different is wrong and unethical.

Period.

AKTwisted Evil

Which has NOTHING to do with scamming, pirating or war-decing for ransome WITHIN the game...

AKTwisted Evil

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.12.03 22:52:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Rosolo Refili
Your telling me BOB doesn't macro mine?


Why in heaven's name would any major alliance macro mine, when they have much better ISK sources. Moons, Ratting, Plexes etc. etc.

The article is one cheater trying too hard to rationalize how's he not a cheater, which is bleh in my opinion. "But everybody else is/could be doing it!" is never a valid argument on the playground, why would it be different in EVE?


Stop thinking about BoB as an institution and start thinking about it as a group of people- some of whom realize that deep 0.0 territory is perfectly safe to mine in for personal gain.

Then take into account that macromining minerals in nullsec is cheaper and quicker than hauling from highsec to a production line in nul.

Then consider BoB doesn't exactly have a clean record as to exploits or flat out violations of the eula and preferential treatment.

Its hardly surprising people suspect BoB engages in Macro activities.

Nakimoto
Caldari
Unnatural Growth
OUTWORLD SYNDICATE
Posted - 2008.12.03 22:55:00 - [23]
 

this is another sad testimate to humanity itself. the simple facts are in ANY system someone will find away to take advantage of it and otherwise abuse it. If it is an out right breach of the rules or a serious distortion of the rules as they are written to give unfair advantages, which is the lame justification I am following the rules. they are the same pieces of crap IMHO

RLee Ermy
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.12.03 23:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Faekurias
Edited by: Faekurias on 02/12/2008 19:12:48
I just farted and the carrot I'm eating suddenly tastes funny.



You gotta take the carrot out of your butt

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.12.03 23:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rosolo Refili
Edited by: Rosolo Refili on 02/12/2008 16:46:32
I think his point is all the big alliances do it why not him.

Just trying to compete

Your telling me BOB doesn't macro mine?

Edit: I don't mine or think it's right he is simply saying how can you compete when you have them


Why would Bob need to Macro mine when they have access to such good PvE loot? Rolling Eyes

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.12.04 05:38:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
Why would Bob need to Macro mine when they have access to such good PvE loot? Rolling Eyes


Forgive my ignorance: can macro-miners even operate in 0.0? Can a Hulk be tanked against a full-on rat battleship swarm?

Mickey Simon
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.12.04 07:29:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Cat Molina
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Why would Bob need to Macro mine when they have access to such good PvE loot? Rolling Eyes


Forgive my ignorance: can macro-miners even operate in 0.0? Can a Hulk be tanked against a full-on rat battleship swarm?

Not sure about the latter, but it doesn't really need to, does it?
Surely there's a macro smart enough to detect reds on the overview and warp off to another belt straight away if indeed a hulk is unable to tank the BS spawns (again, I don't know, don't mine at all -_-)

Rachel Voegel
San Matar Trucking Company
Posted - 2008.12.04 12:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Rosolo Refili
Just trying to compete

Amd that is why macros do harm the game.

In General
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.12.04 14:58:00 - [29]
 

Oooo I love this; this assumption that only through being ethical and moral can we humans evolve, the Wesley Crusher effect I call it, when in fact all evidence shows irrefutably that our evolutionary success is down to being the baddest and meanest.

In fact the lament should be ‘oh woe is humanity for becoming so moral!’

Misina Arlath
Amarr
Posted - 2008.12.04 15:21:00 - [30]
 

Macro'ing is a double-edged sword.

If we ban all the macro'ers, then, as the blogger stated, the prices on ore, minerals and consequently modules and ships would start rising.

Simple economics: Less supply meets high demand = Prices go up since everyone bids over eachother in order to get the items.

On the other hand though, macro'ing means you're not really playing the game. If you aren't really playing the game, you shouldn't be rewarded for it either. As the blogger said, some people have enough RL time to play, some don't. However, that doesn't justify using 3rd party programs to offset your lack of spare time compared to them.

And yes, I know the skill system rewards you without playing the game, but that is a set mechanic in the game that everyone benefits from.

Yes, I know sell/buy orders cash in without you playing the game, but in order to know what to buy and what to sell it takes doing your homework while in the game, thus playing it. Buy/sell doesn't reward you until after orders are placed anyhow.

So what are we left with?

Ban them and raise prices?

Live and let live, and give people an unfair advantage compared to the rest who don't have the spare time to play?

And, yes, I call it an unfair advantage despite the blogger saying the information and everything needed to learn and create macro's is available for everyone to learn.

He's also saying in the same run that it took him several months, in fact close to a year, to learn everything he needed. If he has the time to spend that time learning how to macro, wouldn't he have the time to play the game as well?

I only play EVE for perhaps 10-12 hours each week when I am playing. I commonly have extended periods of time where I don't play EVE at all. Still, I'm able to earn the millions of isk needed to fit L4 mission running ships as well as support my PvP'ing.

The conclusion however is simple: If we want to act against them, it's going to be at the cost of our own wallets in-game. Or it will be at the cost of facing ships more well-equipped than they should normally have been, because they were funded by macro'ing.



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