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Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:00:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: darkmancer
It's amazing Goumindong always says Caldari have the best ships yet amazingly he never flys them. What a surprise.

Certainly the Rokh is a good BS but despite there being far more Caldari players, and the fact the Rokh is probobly the most noob friendly fleet ship, it's still one of the less used fleet ships.

The range is nice but it overshoots the rest of the fleet, peoples main concern about fleetships tend to be can tank a DD beyond that put out as much dps as possible.


[Rokh, sniper copy 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II
Large Shield Extender II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II

425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L
425mm Railgun II, Spike L

Ancillary Current Router I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I

Valkyrie II x5

194km optimal, 340 dps, 122k EHP, of which 80k regens Laughing

a megabeam apoc is the only other BS that can hit similar ranges, with 370 dps at the cost of 40k EHP.

I do like your suggestion about gun sig resolution also varying between the races though.

Having read most of the thread, and in accordance with my own views (ofc Laughing) perhaps giving gallente 0-15km superiority, minmatar 15-25km superiority (smaller window due to them being able to deliberately close (amarr) or kite (gallente) to optimise their effective dps advantage), and amarr 25+km superiority might be nice.

The effective damage could be mediated by gallente tracking increase and gun sig decrease, and an amarr gun sig increase.

This would also rebuild a niche for gallente BS in larger gangs, and most crucially, encourages deliberate racial orientation of a gang for a given purpose, which is desirable because a lot of balance issues might disappear if you couldn't pair (for example) falcons with blasterboats, or amarr ships with minny recons. It won't force it, but it will make it an option worth considering, whereas currently only RP groups ever really do this.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:06:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: maralt on 04/12/2008 20:35:45



Originally by: Captator


Having read most of the thread, and in accordance with my own views (ofc Laughing) perhaps giving gallente 0-15km superiority, minmatar 15-25km superiority (smaller window due to them being able to deliberately close (amarr) or kite (gallente) to optimise their effective dps advantage), and amarr 25+km superiority might be nice.




I would go for:

Gallente 5-20 (as nobody hits at 0 or even close, but still close range superiority)
mini 20-35 (superiority between close and mid ranges)
amaar 35-50 (mid range superiority)

A total reduction for gallente in hitting at 35-50 and a high reduction at 20-35.

A high reduction for mini at 5-20 and 35-50.

A total reduction for amarr at hitting at 0-20 and a high reduction at 20-35.

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:37:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Captator on 04/12/2008 20:37:25
Originally by: maralt
I would go for:

Gallente 5-20 (as nobody hits at 0 or even close, but still close range superiority)
mini 20-35 (superiority between close and mid ranges)
amaar 35-50 (mid range superiority)

With a total reduction for gallente in hitting at 35-50 and a high reduction at 20-35.

A high reduction for mini at 5-20 and 35-50.

A total reduction for amarr at hitting at 0-20 and a high reduction at 20-35.


How would you extrapolate these relationships down to medium ships?

(I think small ships already are balanced much better relative to each other in terms of damage/range trade off, so don't need fiddling)

Also, what changes do you suggest making to effect those results? Remember, going by racial style, minmatar should be best at dealing with moving targets in optimal, and due to range constraints, I think gallente should be better able to hit smaller ship classes at optimal (through tracking or gun sig res changes). Amarr should effect monstrous damage on properly pinned down targets all the way down to ~15km, but suffer very steep penalties when going outside their ideal ranges on more mobile targets; this emphasizing the gallente solo/small gang, minmatar small-med roaming gang/amarr large heavy fleet racial styles further.

Again this logic starts breaking down as you go down the shipclasses, so perhaps large vs large, med vs med, small vs small ship balance should be approached separately regarding these tweaks.

edit: clarity

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.04 20:50:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: maralt on 04/12/2008 21:13:08




Originally by: Captator



How would you extrapolate these relationships down to medium ships?


Id really need to see more graphs for the ships and extrapolate new ranges and dmg profiles relative to the existing ship ranges and dmg profiles, and maybe small as well but like you say if they are ok then nothing may be needed.



Originally by: Captator
Also, what changes do you suggest making to effect those results? Remember, going by racial style, minmatar should be best at dealing with moving targets in optimal, and due to range constraints


Changes in tracking and the other gun modifiers and even ammo could take care of most issues as range effects tracking and as such the longer the range the less tracking you need.

So by reducing the tracking of the longer ranged systems (lasers) you reduce their ability to hit at the closer ranges.

Mini would need to be adjusted by using its tracking, optimal and fall off to set it to its pre agreed abilities.

Setting the maximum range of blasters to its pre decided effective ranges you would need to adjust optimum and fall off and maybe also adjusting the ammo dmg would be necessary sort them out.


Im offering this as a rough idea but it would certainly be more "BALANCED" than things are at present.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:13:00 - [125]
 

As I see it, the problem noted here is that people don't see many drawbacks in flying Amarr ships, compared to other ships. The following is a list of commonly cited drawbacks of Amarr ships, and why I do think they're not as problematic as they are could/should be.

(Non-)Problems

1) Tracking is worse than other ships, but it doesn't incur as big a problem as compareable drawbacks do for others. For example, blasters have huge dps, but only at short ranges, and they go down in dps quite quickly. Compared to this, pulses do deal quite competetive damage - not the highest, but competetive - at short ranges as well as out to very long ranges.

2) Few mid slots are only a problem for the Geddon. Also, Amarr (and Caldari) ships are the only ships that actually have the option to skip the MWD in fitting (outside of 0.0) because they do not have to get into range to deal meaningful amounts of damage.

3) Cap hasn't been much of a problem (except in the Abaddon, but even there it's only a minor one), not much more than say in a blaster ship. This has been lowered even more so with the reduced cap penalty of MWDs.

4) Speed-wise, the Amarr ships are quite well-off, even. The Geddon is placed well in the middle field of ship speeds, after the Typhoon, Tempest, Megathron, and Hyperion - faster than the Dominix and Maelstrom. And the middle field is quite narrow: A Megathron (with MWD, 2 plates, 3rigs) goes 822m/s, an equivalently-fitted Geddon goes 792m/s, so we are talking about a 30m/s, or barely 4%, speed advantage for a ship that needs to close in to do serious amounts of damage. If you look at the other classes, it's even more weird. The Harbinger is the 2nd fastest tier 2 BC, and the Omen hulls are among the fastest in their classes, with the Omen being faster than the Thorax and the Zealot being basically just as fast as the Deimos (some 3m/s slower I think).

"Real" Problems

On the other hand, the graphs in this thread don't show the "full truth" as far as I can tell. Lasers have a pretty bad damage type selection against armor tanks. A useful graph wouldn't be "dps", but "ttk" ("time to kill") against various possible targets. DPS graphs drop down more for laser boats than for other ships.

In other situations, the damage types are less of a problem. Most t2 ships have EM as the first or second weakest resist, usually it's the weakest after they plug the main resist hole. For some sniper fleets, the armor tank is not that much "thicker" than the shields (especially if you are looking at non-DD-tanked ships), so the damage type selection is less of a problem. But we were talking about close-range setups against other BS or BC, so that's not relevant here.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:14:00 - [126]
 

More Problems?

I do think we can try to adjust any of those problems, and increase the drawback in Amarr ship usage. To repeat: This is not a proposal to implement all of the following, but a selection of ideas one of which might help to mitigate some of the advantages of pulse laser ships.

1+2) About 1.5 years ago, pulse lasers received a 25% tracking bonus across the board[1] - has anyone done the graphs to see if taking that change back would give the Amarr ships a clear disadvantage at short ranges? Alternatively, you could increase the signature resolution of the guns for a similar effect. This would also mean increasing the mid-slot problem, as Amarr will need to use support modules to do their full dps - increasing their value in fleets - just like missile ships need to.

3+4) Cap should be a problem for the Amarr. This can be addressed at the same time as the speed issue - it should hurt an Amarr ship to fit an MWD. They have the range advantage, so they do not need to move too fast. Reduce their cap (total quantity or recharge rate) so that fitting an MWD really needs compromises in the fit. Of course, this mustn't make it so that Amarr ships can not fit MWDs in a sensible way because of bubbles, but it should be a difficult decision.

Quick note on why I propose "nerfs to Amarr" and not "boosts to Gallente/Minmatar": I do think that the other ships are all quite balanced among each other (the Raven is now thanks to the QR changes). It's easier to bring the Amarr ships into line with the others than to boost all the others.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.04 22:45:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
More Problems?

I do think we can try to adjust any of those problems, and increase the drawback in Amarr ship usage. To repeat: This is not a proposal to implement all of the following, but a selection of ideas one of which might help to mitigate some of the advantages of pulse laser ships.

1+2) About 1.5 years ago, pulse lasers received a 25% tracking bonus across the board[1] - has anyone done the graphs to see if taking that change back would give the Amarr ships a clear disadvantage at short ranges? Alternatively, you could increase the signature resolution of the guns for a similar effect. This would also mean increasing the mid-slot problem, as Amarr will need to use support modules to do their full dps - increasing their value in fleets - just like missile ships need to.

3+4) Cap should be a problem for the Amarr. This can be addressed at the same time as the speed issue - it should hurt an Amarr ship to fit an MWD. They have the range advantage, so they do not need to move too fast. Reduce their cap (total quantity or recharge rate) so that fitting an MWD really needs compromises in the fit. Of course, this mustn't make it so that Amarr ships can not fit MWDs in a sensible way because of bubbles, but it should be a difficult decision.

Quick note on why I propose "nerfs to Amarr" and not "boosts to Gallente/Minmatar": I do think that the other ships are all quite balanced among each other (the Raven is now thanks to the QR changes). It's easier to bring the Amarr ships into line with the others than to boost all the others.


Actual I think the other way around, give back Mini and Gallente ships her bite at close range(and her flexiblity vs smaller ships). Nerfing Amarr wonīt fix things, only make all more ballanced at QR level what actualy sucks for small gang/solo Players, at least in my opinion. Blasters would still suck with the 60% Web(also AK Ships to a lesser extend), I donīt feel like I want to use 48M SP for heavy Tackling or Gang DPS support, serious, I want a working Blaster ship again what is dominating in Web Range and a solid solo ship.

PS.: I would had at least the Raven KM with a stronger Web back at our last meeting, dreaded multiwebbing and Scram Mad. Cool

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.04 23:56:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 05/12/2008 00:53:44
Originally by: The Djego
PS.: I would had at least the Raven KM with a stronger Web back at our last meeting, dreaded multiwebbing and Scram Mad. Cool


The problem is that with better webs, we probably wouldn't have had the fight at all - baiting a Megathron to engage a Raven is not too bright if the Raven has no chance to escape web range and we can't kill the Mega fast enough - and we didn't have ECM or any other BS around. (First time we actively used the new scrambler in a fight, too.)

Was a good fight, respect to you and your friend in the Maelstrom there.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 02:17:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: SecHaul

Except that I am only comparing short range weapons, not a single graph includes a long range weapon.



Except that this is stupid because pulse lasers aren't short range weapons! Good lord how many times do I have to explain this to you?

Quote:
I don't know, still looks pretty good to be using lasers.


Look at the distances between each weapon from 0-10km and then between 10 and 25. Notice how they about the same? Yes, this is intended.

Regarding AC's. There might be an issue with AC's but i don't know at this point. The ships they are on have just gotten a pretty big boost, so its tough to tell.

Quote:
Secondly, I do not compare "irrespective" of role, these battleships are fitted as they would be on TQ except for drones. All you believe is "Amarr's role is to do the most DPS and be the best battleship, which is why you fly it.


Good ****ing god, look at the actual differences in ships. Amarr ships just do DPS, they have nothing else. Its what they do. Minmatar and Galente ships when fit for short range do not fill that role. "Doing DPS in a gang" is only one of the possible roles that short range battleships can fill.

Originally by: SecHaul
OK, now I know you simply do not read posts before replying, and you don't remember what you post before writing more piles of steaming waste. I have always said "no battleship can track a BC webbed under 0-2KM. That is why I have a 6KM window, from 2KM to 8KM, before Amarr take the damage.



I love how you don't take ship speed, agility, utility slots, and drone bay into account when seeing whether or not a ship has a problem and then declare an entire weapon system broken because of it.

Oh wait, no i don't because it makes all your posts polemic bull.

Quote:

Thank you for actually including falloff numbers this time. Now if you would like to look at what an Abaddon does at 22.4KM in their DPS cycle for comparison, you will notice it OUT DPS's the long range Mega with T1 ammo, as well as T2 ammo. I have included T1 and T2 ammo in every graph, I have compared it's use. Amarr still simply dominate.



Indeed it does, but by how much? And, what are the advantages of the long range fit at other ranges?

Quote:
I agree it depends on where the other guy is, that's also been a large part of my argument (which you fail to read). If someone is 20KM out, it is cut and dry, he's 12KM in the Amarr window of DPS, and 6KM in the Mega, with the final 2KM be a no-hit zone for both. Which battleship would you like to be in?



The Hyperion, large drone bay, better ability to rep, 2 webs, much faster and more agile.

Originally by: SecHaul
I think your logic is warped. Why would someone use blasters (pre-QR) when lasers could track due to 90% webs. Hmm, maybe because blasters out-DPS's lasers when you can hold people down in the window? Maybe, you think?


By how much? A: Not enough to counteract the fact that

A: no one would ever want to get into that range
C: Unless you landed right next to the other guy the damage he would do before you closed was greater than the damage advantage you had in close range.

Quote:

Secondly, before QR small ships wouldn't get into web range. After QR small ships will still not get into web range, unless they plan to get under guns.


Incorrect. Getting into web range is always better. In web range they have a chance to avoid fire by getting close enough. Outside of web range they do not.

Quote:
Amarr have the same 24.4KM, plus the additional 40KM of range outside of web range.


And where do fights typically start?


The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.05 02:21:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 05/12/2008 00:53:44
Originally by: The Djego
PS.: I would had at least the Raven KM with a stronger Web back at our last meeting, dreaded multiwebbing and Scram Mad. Cool


The problem is that with better webs, we probably wouldn't have had the fight at all - baiting a Megathron to engage a Raven is not too bright if the Raven has no chance to escape web range and we can't kill the Mega fast enough - and we didn't have ECM or any other BS around. (First time we actively used the new scrambler in a fight, too.)

Was a good fight, respect to you and your friend in the Maelstrom there.


Well it still was 3+Sentrys vs 1(in the first place) and the Raven didnīt even used Faction Torps(ofc props for not fielding EM like 90% of the other Ravens I seen).
Simply my point of view, shure it was clever to field the AF(with the Scrambler) and it was good played, but on the other hand for people like me, things get a lot harder and graping fights like this, making it not worth in the end, resulting in more Ganks and less nice fights in the end.

Basicly the game takes away a lot options form me, preventing me from dooing this stuff(yes I engaged while allready knowing it will be a close one and I like this things) and will force me into bigger Gang PVP(since im not keen on loosing this 100M a poop solo Megas on purpose). This is actualy what I dislike at QR, if the game takes the options from me, it will also take the targets from you, what kills the fun of Low Sec PVP.

A good skilled Raven will mess up with a Mega under Sentry aggro preaty easy(at lest before QR, didnīt had sucessfull fights on TQ after QR since they warp to fast Razz, but I think I would have soloed the one your Gang had). It was mostly a fitting qestion in the end. Raven + support Ships under Sentry aggro was actualy quite a challange even before QR, if they play on the same level of Skills and Fitting.


Dumb Blond
Caldari
Posted - 2008.12.05 05:41:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Dumb Blond on 05/12/2008 05:48:13
Edited by: Dumb Blond on 05/12/2008 05:44:46
guys let the epeens go and stop using the lvl 5 to all skills thing in eft the average pvper has half them skills at 4

if u start doin number for the 80% (ish ok i dont know how many) that DONT have everything at 5 in guns/missiles that pvp on regular basis ccp might take notice

and there is no such thing as an abaddon doin 55km+ on TQ thats fitted for pvp there is no point unless its a long range fit and if that were the case u would use long range guns...

and to this....
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: SecHaul

Except that I am only comparing short range weapons, not a single graph includes a long range weapon.



Except that this is stupid because pulse lasers aren't short range weapons! Good lord how many times do I have to explain this to you?


if PULSE lasers are long range WTF ARE THE BEAMS goumindong that statement u just made that ive quoted just made u look like u dont know wat ur talking about



yes btw i read pages 1-2 but gave up and just read wat was just b4 my post and used the edit button)


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 07:30:00 - [132]
 

They would be medium range, thanks for not reading the thread.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.05 08:31:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Except that this is stupid because pulse lasers aren't short range weapons!


I think the problem really is that people actually disagree on the reality of this - they should be medium range, but they are too effective even at short range compared to other weapon systems. I.e. their drawbacks at short range are not big enough to outweight the benefits of "medium" range advantages.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.05 10:18:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
They would be medium range, thanks for not reading the thread.


so they should start to outdamage blasters and ACs at about 20KM IMO ... this is clearly NOT the case ...

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.05 10:21:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Rivqua
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 04/12/2008 15:12:47
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 04/12/2008 15:12:36
Originally by: God's Secret

LOLZ
Do not get me wrong man, it is not my intent to be an *******.. but you are simply clueless..

You are either very new to the game or never bothered to actualy fly amarr bs's.. you simply fail to understand the biger picture.. along with your minnie buddy who seems very bitter..



fly amarr ships ? WHY ? Goumindong admited he does not fly blaster ships, yet he does know everything there is to know about them, so his oppinions and arguments are relevant.

so it seems having actual in-game experience with the ships/weapon systems in question is not relevant to any argument about them ...

EDIT:

SecHaul, nice graphs and congrats on your continued effort to argue with Goumindong ... I realy have quite the fun reading this thread. I doubg you will ever make a graph that will satisfy Goumindong ... he seems to see things that are not in the graphs and since they are not there, you are doing them wrong ... :-)


Why post without contributing to the thread and thereby watering it down? ^^^

Also, I think part of the discussion is that the end goals for the different parties are so different, people are looking for and seeing different things in the graphs. It's all in the perception. I guess some want a eve where every ship is good at its job, and decent on others, and can refit to be good at a third thing. Others on the other hand, want every ship to behave the same, with same dps, same range, same speed.

It's pretty similiar to the Ships & Modules forum, when someone posts something they've ran in eft, like how not every ship can reach 249km without any tracking enhancers, and then everyone jabbers on about it without any point.

Although, after re-reading this thread, I am pretty sure the Devs have been keeping a good eye on it, and the noise to data ratio has generally been exceptionally good, I am pretty sure no foolish things will be done to the ships, and they will keep their current balance.

/Riv


1. notice that the graphs work with common PvP setups ...
2. I asked for the scenarios to be specified and evaluated ... I was actualy only flamed (see some 2 pages back)
3. there are too many variations you can created with gang composition, starting positions, fittings etc. that makes balancing a bit hard ... that's why people here are trying to work on one scenarion where blaster boats were strong once before ...

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.05 10:31:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: maralt on 05/12/2008 10:51:13


Originally by: Goumindong
They would be medium range, thanks for not reading the thread.


And what is medium range?, it is around 40-50km when you look at the other weapon systems but the problem is that lasers are better at 10-50km and that is broken no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.

Originally by: Goumindong
Amarr ships just do DPS, they have nothing else. Its what they do. Minmatar and Galente ships when fit for short range do not fill that role. "Doing DPS in a gang" is only one of the possible roles that short range battleships can fill.


Really like what?.... fast tacklers?... BS are slow moving dmg platforms (maybe with a nuet and RR fitted) their ship speed and tracking along with other things make them so, and even more so after this latest nerf to speed among other things.

The only real exception to this fact is the scorp due to its ecm bonus and maybe a case could be made for the domi but not much of one.

Trying to dream up roles and attempting to fit the other BS and weapon systems into them just to keep your own races overpowered is a sign of desperation and after seeing it i doubt anybody will be as supportive of you the next time you try to get something nerfed as you self acclaimed neutrality has been destroyed by your total and obvious bias to this completely overpowered system.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.12.05 10:37:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: maralt

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.




Sechaul, could you please do me a favour. I am genuinely interested.

Could you redo this graph thats linked above, but adjust the base damage numbers by thease amounts:

Amarr
Navy MF = x0.56
Scorch = x0.53

Gallente
Navy AM = x0.71
Null = x0.70

Minmatar
Fleet EMP = x0.69
Barrage = x0.83

Thankyou kindly!

//Rivqua

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:08:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong
They would be medium range, thanks for not reading the thread.


so they should start to outdamage blasters and ACs at about 20KM IMO ... this is clearly NOT the case ...


No, in what crazy fantasy land would that be balanced?

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

I think the problem [...] outweight the benefits of "medium" range advantages.


No, the problem here is coming entirely from peoples

A: Not looking at how much of an advantage actually exists in web range. The amount of advantage actually provided in web range is prodigious. At 4km, according to the graphs in this thread an Ion mega does roughly twice as much damage as an Abaddon. Guns only. This isn't even a Hyperion[2 webs, much better effective tracking, more guns = same normalized gun DPS for 1 heat sink on it vs the mega]. At 3km its roughly 400%.

B: Not looking at what the opposing ships should be attempting to do. We have people in here saying that smaller ships would be turning away from the fight or that they would be afraid of web range. Certainly not. Staying outside of web range is certain death[more or less, it might still be possible to run] for a small ship trying to kill a larger one with very few exceptions. The range advantage that Amarr have with pulse lasers is more or less non-existent in the situations we are talking about.

C: Not looking at the other benefits that ships provide. Seriously, speed, agility, ability to rep, drone bay, utility med slots, utility high slots... These things count. They aren't as valuable when you're only concerned about doing DPS. But if you're only concerned about dealing DPS, you're not flying in the situations we have decided to talk about.

I mean, we seriously had one guy in here saying that all you had to do was sit 30km off a gate.. Sit 30km off a gate and do what? Hope the other side doesn't have a Rifter? Hope that the other side doesn't know how to use the "warp to gang member at x" command?

Killing a plated battlecruiser with 1000 real DPS takes about 50 seconds[plated Harbinger w/ 1600rt, MAR, EANM, DC has 49k EHP]. The fight is likely to start around 15-20km. It takes 3-5 seconds to lock. The Harbinger goes 950m/s with an align time of 12.6 seconds[1400m/s overloaded]. He will be within web range or close enough to web range before you even have him locked. If you're flying a laser battleship then your window is over at that point, even if you overload your web, he will have momentum to carry him underneath your guns. He will have agility to maneuver and get transversal advantage.

Yet we have people in here, seriously saying that the advantage under web range, that 2 webs, that a large drone bay, that none of these are important to solo/small gang BS. And all of it is Bull.

We have these same people ignoring short range ammo in long range turrets for no good reason. Megabeams with no tracking mods have an optimal range of 30km with multifrequency. A Mega will hit 36+30 and do 80 of the DPS of a scorch Abaddon(a Mega being one of the worse of the current sniping options, which is another discussion). But these options are ignored[tracking is worse of course, but in a gang, with tacklers that is much less important right?] because railtguns are not "short range weapons". Yet, Scorch fit pulse lasers are at 45+10km?

Maybe there was some natural shift away from smaller gang engagements? Maybe then, we should just give up on trying to make ships that are balanced in that environment? I mean, we don't need solo BS right, we don't need BS that are better in some areas and worse in others?

That is pretty much whats being asked. To hedge the last bit of medium range combat into the solo/small gang ships realm. To make make fitting sniping or solo, two sizes fit all. I don't want to play that Eve.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:18:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: maralt

Really like what?.... fast tacklers?... BS are slow moving dmg platforms (maybe with a nuet and RR fitted) their ship speed and tracking along with other things make them so, and even more so after this latest nerf to speed among other things.



See, the problem here is that you want to always fly in a gang. Yes, if you're always flying in a decent sized gang with clearly defined roles then Amarr BS are likely the best. If you're not, then the picture changes.

You want to define battleships as only being DPS platforms. They are not. At least, people who see different tools to do different jobs will see it that way. When all you've got is a hammer and all that...

Originally by: Rivqua


Sechaul, could you please do me a favour. I am genuinely interested.

Could you redo this graph thats linked above, but adjust the base damage numbers by thease amounts:

Amarr
Navy MF = x0.56
Scorch = x0.53

Gallente
Navy AM = x0.71
Null = x0.70

Minmatar
Fleet EMP = x0.69
Barrage = x0.83

Thankyou kindly!

//Rivqua


Those numbers are likely partially inaccurate. Shields and Hull do account for significant amount of damage when shooting at ships without repair based tanks. Or ships where the repair based tank is small[BC and Below].

This is one of the reasons that the range advantage manifests itself in larger gang scenarios. Because repping of all sorts becomes less efficient.

As well, the numbers change based on what ship you're shooting at

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:34:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: maralt on 05/12/2008 12:01:19

Originally by: Goumindong


At 4km, according to the graphs in this thread an Ion mega does roughly twice as much damage as an Abaddon. Guns only. This isn't even a Hyperion[2 webs, much better effective tracking, more guns = same normalized gun DPS for 1 heat sink on it vs the mega]. At 3km its roughly 400%.


50km available sweet spot > 2-4km available sweet spot no matter how you try to spin it.

Originally by: Goumindong
The range advantage that Amarr have with pulse lasers is more or less non-existent in the situations we are talking about.


It exists at all ranges apart from the tiny window at uber close range your just ignoring the other ranges cos it shows how overpowered lasers are.

Originally by: Goumindong
C: Not looking at the other benefits that ships provide. Seriously, speed, agility, ability to rep, drone bay, utility med slots, utility high slots... These things count. They aren't as valuable when you're only concerned about doing DPS. But if you're only concerned about dealing DPS, you're not flying in the situations we have decided to talk about.


Mega is roughly 4% faster than (similarly fitted) amarr ships so LOL at speed advantage.

Relative agility is insignificant when comparing BS sized ships.

If you wanna fit a rep fit a rep that is your business.

4 mid slots on the mega how many do all but one of the amaar ships have?

Originally by: Goumindong
I mean, we seriously had one guy in here saying that all you had to do was sit 30km off a gate.. Sit 30km off a gate and do what? Hope the other side doesn't have a Rifter? Hope that the other side doesn't know how to use the "warp to gang member at x" command?


So the only ppl using tactics are those flying against amaars overpowered laser ships?, YOU HAVE TOTAL RANGE/DPS SUPERIORITY, THAT IS A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE WITHOUT USING YOUR OWN TACTICS LET ALONE WITH THEM.


Originally by: Goumindong
But these options are ignored[tracking is worse of course, but in a gang, with tacklers that is much less important right?] because railguns are not "short range weapons". Yet, Scorch fit pulse lasers are at 45+10km?


So you would be willing to have pulse lasers tracking adjusted to close to 425 rail levels?, so you hit at your med range but track for crap closer just like you rail fitted mega does?. And lets not go into the PG issues for using 425 rails instead of ions).

That is actually "balanced" considering blasters cannot reach long ranges.

Originally by: Goumindong
we don't need BS that are better in some areas and worse in others?


Actually we do but the only BS and weapon system that breaks that mold is amaar as you hit hard at short and long, so fine we will FIX your system to hit and its full med range hard but much worse at close range.


maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:39:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: maralt on 05/12/2008 11:46:48
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt

Really like what?.... fast tacklers?... BS are slow moving dmg platforms (maybe with a nuet and RR fitted) their ship speed and tracking along with other things make them so, and even more so after this latest nerf to speed among other things.



See, the problem here is that you want to always fly in a gang. Yes, if you're always flying in a decent sized gang with clearly defined roles then Amarr BS are likely the best. If you're not, then the picture changes.

You want to define battleships as only being DPS platforms. They are not. At least, people who see different tools to do different jobs will see it that way. When all you've got is a hammer and all that...




How about you post a list of all these other "roles" and "tools" you see BS fitting, please include fittings along with scenarios against what they would be facing and where they would be facing them, id love to see them. That is if they are are and worth a damn and you are not just reaching for anything and grasping air like a drowning man.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:49:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong
They would be medium range, thanks for not reading the thread.


so they should start to outdamage blasters and ACs at about 20KM IMO ... this is clearly NOT the case ...


No, in what crazy fantasy land would that be balanced?




yours maybe ? then define the "medium range" you are talking about and specify how you expect the ships and respective weapon systems fit in range windows/signature windows/damage windows ... all you are doing is screaming around without any hard arguments as to what you want the game to look like ...

would be nice if you actualy stated how you imagine things should work out in more details than just "amarr are fine" ... then we can maybe take your serious ...

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:20:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 05/12/2008 12:20:14
Originally by: maralt

50km available sweet spot > 2-4km available sweet spot no matter how you try to spin it.



Now its a 2-4km sweet spot? What happened to the other 4km?

Also, it entirely depends on where fights start.

Quote:

It exists at all ranges apart from the tiny window at uber close range your just ignoring the other ranges cos it shows how overpowered lasers are.



I am ignoring the other ranges because fights don't typically start there and have very little reason to get there.

Quote:

Mega is 4% faster than the amarr ships so LOL at speed advantage.



A mega is 4% faster than an Abaddon when the Abaddon is fitting zero plates and zero trimarks and the Mega is fitting 2 plates and 3 trimarks. It is 7% faster when the Abaddon is fitting 2 plates and no trimarks, when the Abaddon has trimakrs as well its 21.2% faster. A single plated Hyperion is 27.6% faster.

Quote:

Relative agility is insignificant when comparing BS sized ships.


Bull. The mega/hyp are 12% more agile. That means they get to their 20% higher top speed 12% faster. That means, in a sprint to any single velocity, the Mega will get there 36.1% faster. It means over the same amount of time for accelerating, the mega will be going in excess of 36.1% faster until about 3/4 velocity when acceleration starts to drop off. At which point the gap will slow until the mega will only be going 21.2% faster.

The single plated hyperion of course will be doing even better

Quote:

If you wanna fit a rep fit a rep that is your business.


No, its everyone's business who shoots at you. If you're fitting a rep on the Abaddon you're pretty much giving up your prop mod for that ability. I should not have to explain how large a disadvantage this is... unless you don't have any qualms about fighting in web range the majority of the time... Oh wait.

Quote:

4 mid slots on the mega how many do all but one of the amaar ships have?


And 125 cubes of drone bay, a utility high slot, and guns that don't use 50 cap/second just to fire.

P.S.

The Hyperion and Dominix have 5, don't know if you noticed.

Quote:

So the only ppl using tactics are those flying against amaars overpowered laser ships?, YOU HAVE TOTAL RANGE/DPS SUPERIORITY, THAT IS A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE WITHOUT USING YOUR OWN TACTICS LET ALONE WITH THEM.


Yes, having range allows you a matter of tactical advantage. That does not mean that putting yourself at a specific tactical disadvantage and hoping your opponents are too dumb to notice is a good idea.

Quote:

So you would be willing to have pulse lasers tracking adjusted to close to 425 rail levels?, so you hit at your med range but track for crap closer just like you rail fitted mega does?.


No, if they were tracking at railgun levels they would have to be solidly long range weapons. Like Beams.

Maybe you're missing the distinction between long range, short range, and medium range.

Quote:

Actually we do but the only BS and weapon system that breaks that mold is amaar as you hit hard at short and long, so fine we will FIX your system to hit and its full med range hard but much worse at close range.


It does hit much worse at close range are you looking at the same graphs I am, the same ones posted in this thread that show massive DPS losses under 10km?[remember, inertia]

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:24:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Rivqua on 05/12/2008 12:27:55
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt

Really like what?.... fast tacklers?... BS are slow moving dmg platforms (maybe with a nuet and RR fitted) their ship speed and tracking along with other things make them so, and even more so after this latest nerf to speed among other things.



See, the problem here is that you want to always fly in a gang. Yes, if you're always flying in a decent sized gang with clearly defined roles then Amarr BS are likely the best. If you're not, then the picture changes.

You want to define battleships as only being DPS platforms. They are not. At least, people who see different tools to do different jobs will see it that way. When all you've got is a hammer and all that...

Originally by: Rivqua


Sechaul, could you please do me a favour. I am genuinely interested.

Could you redo this graph thats linked above, but adjust the base damage numbers by thease amounts:

Amarr
Navy MF = x0.56
Scorch = x0.53

Gallente
Navy AM = x0.71
Null = x0.70

Minmatar
Fleet EMP = x0.69
Barrage = x0.83

Thankyou kindly!

//Rivqua


Those numbers are likely partially inaccurate. Shields and Hull do account for significant amount of damage when shooting at ships without repair based tanks. Or ships where the repair based tank is small[BC and Below].

This is one of the reasons that the range advantage manifests itself in larger gang scenarios. Because repping of all sorts becomes less efficient.

As well, the numbers change based on what ship you're shooting at


There is a decent impact yes, but a plate/trimarked, low/high grade slaved BS pilot will have enough of hp % in their armour pool to make it a interesting view. As you mentioned, it's also valid in a repair based situation, which could quite possibly happen in this scenario we are discussing, with solo / very small gangs, where a rep based tank can actually hold its own.

The numbers are also taken without racial resist buffs as I was going for the default average. Most people tank BC 2x EANM, plate, DCU, or 2x plate or more for BS.

So the relative resists won't change. Yes, it's not perfect, it's also way less perfect to have this discussion without any resist stats. I am just trying to add another combat dimension to the graph, that noone has thought of to mention yet, and I would be pretty certain that CCP takes into account in their calcs for balancing.

My own precalcs make me think the graph will look very interesting after adding this.

/Riv

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:40:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: maralt


How about you post a list of all these other "roles" and "tools" you see BS fitting, please include fittings along with scenarios against what they would be facing and where they would be facing them, id love to see them. That is if they are are and worth a damn and you are not just reaching for anything and grasping air like a drowning man.


Rolls only, since fits are too varied to get into without making the next page a big fat list of fits for various battleships with pros and cons. Currently they are(you'll excuse me if i miss some)

Max Range Sniping
EHP Sniping
Anti-Anti-support
Remote Rep
Solo/Small gang
Primary middle gang DPS
Siege Engine
Smartbomber
Bait

One of these probably shouldn't exist[Anti-Anti-support via the Apoc], but the rest are about right. Solo/Small gang has the most variety in fits and abilities with the rest primarily being a function of damage, sustainability, hit points, and range for various objectives. With the notable exceptions of the specialty fits.

If there are any problems with Gallente BS, its currently sitting in the "max range sniping/EHP sniping" categories where they get beaten by everyone, even Minmatar, offering no niche[Maelstrom is actually better than the Megathron by a decent margin, not much more expensive either]. But, as i said earlier, that is another thread.

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

yours maybe ?


Huh? I am arguing against that. I don't know what else to say, because as of yet, i don't think changes are warranted to the short range efficiency of the current ships. Maybe more time in QR will prove me wrong, but i doubt it.

The majority of these fights start close and end closer. Extending the range of superiority of blasters to 20km would hedge Amarr and Minmatar out of nearly all small gang/solo fights period and seriously impair them in medium sized fights to the point where you would be bringing sniping fit ships right about the time you stopped using blaster fit ships. It certainly would with minmatar since they would have some weird amorphous area in the middle where they were effective, but not really[and designing the weapons that would do that would probably require a complete rewrite of the tracking system]. And even if you kept the current system[worse in either area, better in the weakness with the ability to exploit it], the short range superiority of blasters would pretty much negate any ability of minmatar to dictate range[Which is especially true since the mega currently has the advantage over the tempest till about 24km, though of course these graphs don't show that because they don't show drones]

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:45:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
poor justifications for a overpowered weapon system.


Fixed.


Originally by: Goumindong
No, if they were tracking at railgun levels they would have to be solidly long range weapons. Like Beams.
Maybe you're missing the distinction between long range, short range, and medium range.


No im not your being vague about it, if you wanna get technical med rage is over 100km and long is over at least 170km but your playing with words to justify your overpowered system.

As far as close range weapon systems are concerned we have blasters, pulse and AC.

Blasters are the close range, close range system.

AC are the mid range, close range system.

Pulse are the long range, close range system.



The issue is that pulse outclass ALL the others at every range apart from a tiny window and all your protestations are poor excuses just reinforce it, your worse than those who defended nano.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:46:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Rivqua


There is a decent impact yes, but a plate/trimarked, low/high grade slaved BS pilot will have enough of hp % in their armour pool to make it a interesting view. As you mentioned, it's also valid in a repair based situation, which could quite possibly happen in this scenario we are discussing, with solo / very small gangs, where a rep based tank can actually hold its own.

The numbers are also taken without racial resist buffs as I was going for the default average. Most people tank BC 2x EANM, plate, DCU, or 2x plate or more for BS.

So the relative resists won't change. Yes, it's not perfect, it's also way less perfect to have this discussion without any resist stats. I am just trying to add another combat dimension to the graph, that noone has thought of to mention yet, and I would be pretty certain that CCP takes into account in their calcs for balancing.

My own precalcs make me think the graph will look very interesting after adding this.

/Riv


Oh, it will[and in the NB spreadsheet it can be achieved by simply fixing the default tank for amor and then making sure tanks are accounted for on all ships].

Marn Prestoc, the guy who now does NB's spreadsheet now that NB doesn't do it produced some interesting numbers when we were looking at the em resistance change[iirc]. I am trying to find them, but have to search SHC, so it will probably take a while.

A slaved passive tank will have almost none of its EHP in armor/hull. With around 200k+ EHP you would get, at most 10% in hull and maybe 1-2% in shield. That being said, you will be surprised at the effect that shields have on the minnie numbers if i can ever find them.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:51:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: maralt

No im not your being vague about it, if you wanna get technical med rage is over 100km and long is over at least 170km but your playing with words to justify your overpowered system.

As far as close range weapon systems are concerned we have blasters, pulse and AC.

Blasters are the close range, close range system.

AC are the mid range, close range system.

Pulse are the long range, close range system.



The issue is that pulse outclass ALL the others at every range apart from a tiny window and all your protestations are poor excuses just reinforce it, your worse than those who defended nano.


Why is "middle range" at 100km?

Why are AC's "middle ranged close range weapons systems".

Why does that statement belie that you are completely uneducated as to how AC's operate, have been designed to operate and are likely to be designed to operate in the future?

if "long range, close range" overlaps with the "close range, long range" then what does that make it?

The blaster window is not tiny as a percentage of the fights that happen.

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.12.05 12:52:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
none of its EHP in armor/hull


^^ I am sure you meant shield/hull.

And about minnie, yeah, I know. Once upon a time I flew a hurricane with 1 LSE, 1Plate, and Core defence field extenders. This gave me about equal 12k ish shield/armour, and with the reversed resists, worked pretty well against many enemies, without worrying about hardeners.

/Riv

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.05 13:04:00 - [150]
 


Originally by: Goumindong
Max Range Sniping, EHP Sniping




Apart from the rokh and the mini ships who are at the extremes id say a BS sniper is a BS sniper tbh.

Originally by: Goumindong
Anti-Anti-support


Totally dependent on the type of engagement but having a ship that can use its close range weapons from just under 10km to 50km is a big advantage.

Originally by: Goumindong
Remote Rep


Again id give the advantage to the gang with the best dmg to range ratio....oh look who that is...

Originally by: Goumindong
Solo/Small gang


In BS?, ok but in small gang having a BS dmg dealer that does not need to burn into uber close range of the ships your tacklers have locked down to hit with its guns is a monster advantage to the time spent in the engagement among other things.....who has the best range/dmg ratio again???.....


Originally by: Goumindong
Primary middle gang DPS


Range/dmg ratio ftw in this setup as well tbh.


Originally by: Goumindong
Siege Engine


So what system hits hardest or can even reach the tower from the edge of a pos bubble?...blasters, ac or pulse...pulse ftw again.


Originally by: Goumindong
Smartbomber


drag and drop them to the top slot of any BS


Originally by: Goumindong
Bait


Is bait.......



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