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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:32:00 - [451]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 14:38:20

Originally by: Goumindong

They also never need to crash gates, bump anything, MWD away from anything either right?



As i said even if they did the slightly less speed they have is relatively insignificant between BS.

Originally by: Goumindong
It depends on how far away the gate is and how long you can survive the incoming DPS. Or, if their tacklers are dead...



Considering that with a effective 60km range you can sit on the gate more easily than any other BS, and yea yea if the other tacklers are dead and blah blah yada yada.....the only measure is the base measure as any perfect but unrealistic scenario can be set by a paper tiger to suit that individuals intent.

Originally by: Goumindong
We just showed you it is.


No you have shown a bit of insignificant math that means nothing in the sort of combat short range BS partake and are effective in......



Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:40:00 - [452]
 

Originally by: maralt

Considering the effective 60km range you can sit on the gate more easily than any other BS, and yea yea if the other tacklers are dead and blah blah yada yada.....the only measure is the base measure as any perfect but unrealistic scenario can be set by a paper tiger to suit that individuals intent.



Tacklers having to warp out or die is a pretty common occurrence. Especially now that a set of light drones can pretty easily deter anything small from getting in your grill.

If you're sitting on a gate, the gate warp in range is 12-15km. And these people are going to come right back down onto the gate. That means your range advantage is very quickly gone. People who want to kill you with short range BS will easily warp in right on top of you. Sitting right on a gate may give you more coverage over that gate, but it does not give you more advantage.

Quote:

No you have shown a bit of insignificant math that means nothing in the sort of combat short range BS partake and are effective in......


It is not insignificant. Its actually pretty damned significant.

Is there any reason you think it so?

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:47:00 - [453]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 14:48:23
Originally by: maralt

No you have shown a bit of insignificant math that means nothing in the sort of combat short range BS partake and are effective in......


Originally by: Goumindong
It is not insignificant. Its actually pretty damned significant.

Is there any reason you think it so?


Because if i jump into a gate camp in a BS im gonna be dead unless the camp is manned by real morons, in stupid ships, fitted by idiots who are half asleep,... and no extra couple of seconds travel time either way are gonna make any difference what so ever.

If however i am jumping into a camp with a bunch of buddies to bust it we are gonna start firing as soon as we break cloak and so the extra few seconds are also irrelevant.

I am not disputing your math (at least not this bit) but its real time applications and benefit are irrelevant. Your making a typical paper tiger mistake.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:52:00 - [454]
 

Originally by: maralt


Because if i jump into a gate camp in a BS im gonna be dead


It depends on how many of them there are.

Quote:

If however i am jumping into a camp with a bunch of buddies to bust it we are gonna start firing as soon as we break cloak and so the extra few seconds are also irrelevant.


It depends on how many of you there are.


SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:58:00 - [455]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
You should be loading EMP unless the target is larger than you. Shields matter, even over the higher EM resistances

That is weird Goum, I could swear when I looked at Marn's "Accurate Time do Death" numbers, Hail was at the top of the projectile ammo listing. Let me go check again... Oh wait, it is, against 3 EANM's and a DC, it's Hail > Fusion > EMP > Barrage > PP. These numbers include shield values for an armor tanked ship.

So let's summarize, Fusion, which does less overall damage that EMP, does greater damage due to this massive explosive hole you are convinced people will leave open, even after having to chew through the shields. Barrage, is only fractionally worse than EMP in the numbers, however will probably result in more damage unless you start and finish the fight inside of optimal, don't need the range bonus, and are suffering from transversal penalties.

Once again, I disagree with Marn's numbers in reality, because I do not believe that people simply throw EANM's on.

If you flew Minmatar I would welcome you fitting EMP, while leaving explosive resists holes, and getting thoroughly beaten by every other Minmatar pilot that came along that would fit a more appropriate ammo type knowing how Goum scoffs at specific resistance hardeners Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Goumindong
People also fit lasers on ravens. That does not mean that we need to boost lasers to the point where they're effective on ravens.
Ok... Where did I say I was trying to balance weapons systems on non-bonused platforms? What value does this statement add to this conservation apart from Goum trying to say something smart?

Originally by: Goumindong
Omni tanking is optimal. Specific tanking is only optimal for missions or if you know what you're fighting.
It is impossible to prove that omni tanking is "optimal" without taking into account incoming damage. Now, if omni tanking were optimal, and everyone fitted only EANM's or Invuln II's, they would know exactly what your resistance holes were, which in turn would bias damage types, which would make omni tanking sub-par. My example of the explosive resistance hole and Fusion being greater than EMP proves my point.

It also doesn't mean that everyone fits an Omni tank, which is easily proven through a few looks of a killboard, which means all your assumptions that lasers hit optimal resists is a flawed concept - it doesn't happen in reality no matter how much you believe it should based upon paper.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 15:02:00 - [456]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 15:22:11


Originally by: maralt


Because if i jump into a gate camp in a BS im gonna be dead unless the camp is manned by real morons, in stupid ships, fitted by idiots who are half asleep,... and no extra couple of seconds travel time either way are gonna make any difference what so ever.


Originally by: Goumindong
It depends on how many of them there are.


Why snip (the part out that i have re-added) and then reply with summat the part you snipped pretty much covered???....bad trolling imho. I mean a gate camp that is fitted and setup so badly it cannot kill a jumpin solo BS applies to all BS a couple of extra seconds are irrelevant...Laughing And do not even get me started on the fact that even if those few seconds did make a difference in such a amazingly specific scenario that its hardly a valid combat ability..LaughingLaughingLaughing


Originally by: maralt
If however i am jumping into a camp with a bunch of buddies to bust it we are gonna start firing as soon as we break cloak and so the extra few seconds are also irrelevant.


Originally by: Goumindong
It depends on how many of them there are.


Enough to at least make a fight of it and proly enough so we would win or what would be the point of jumping in to break a camp if you did not have enough ships to break it with?????....

Those were both stupid and pointless replies you just gave tbh...





Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.12 15:26:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: SecHaul

So let's summarize, Fusion, which does less overall damage that EMP, does greater damage due to this massive explosive hole you are convinced people will leave open, even after having to chew through the shields.


You're right, i messed up between the old and new resistances. That said, you gain less than a percent of advantage. However, that still does not change that omni-tanking with eanms and ignoring the hole is the way to go. The advantage you get against the singular damage type[which can then be circumvented] is not worth the loss in all the others.

Quote:
Ok... Where did I say I was trying to balance weapons systems on non-bonused platforms? What value does this statement add to this conservation apart from Goum trying to say something smart?


Do you know what an analogy is?

See, its where there are similarities between two statements or situations and you use an instance in the second to say something about the first.

In this instance we have two instances. Fitting lasers on a raven and fitting specific hardeners/plated tanks on armor tanks. The common ground that they fit between is that both are sub-optimal.

Now that we know what the similarity is(something you should have known, since i flat out told you what it was in the sentence afterwords), we can then figure out what the point of the statement was.

In this case it was that "you cannot balance against things that are sub-optimal since that will leave no balance between optimal instances"

Quote:
It is impossible to prove that omni tanking is "optimal" without taking into account incoming damage. Now, if omni tanking were optimal, and everyone fitted only EANM's or Invuln II's, they would know exactly what your resistance holes were, which in turn would bias damage types, which would make omni tanking sub-par.


Only if

A: everyone had the ability to change damage types perfectly on the fly

B: The other reasonable tanking options also did not have resistance holes.

C: Changing damage types in the middle of combat was a no loss proposition.

None of these things are true: You pretty much can expect a thermal heavy intake of damage, followed by explosive due to the typical use of damage drones. Explosive, kinetic, and EM are still about equal in damage distribution. Since you can expect minmatar to typically load barrage or EMP(similar to fusion, but less loss vs shield tanks), amarr is all EM/Thermal, gallente is kin/thermal, and Caldari is typically kinetic/EM/Explosive

However, even then, the incoming thermal DPS is delayed[drone travel], possibly non existent[aggressed by pirates on a low-sec gate], and hardening against it means a massive reduction in tanking ability against all the other options.

If you actually look at the expected incoming DPS you're likely to get, you will find that omni tanking is pretty much optimal when you have no way of knowing what will be shooting you.

Its only if you have knowledge of what will be shooting you before you fit that you can make use of specific tanking. Which is not a bad thing, since meta choices need to be strong and valuable. But it is something that can't really be balanced for since one side has an information advantage which is not easily quantifiable.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.12 15:31:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: maralt

Those were both stupid and pointless replies you just gave tbh...



No, the first one was emphasizing that "I am going to die" is not a binary statement. And the distribution and ability of ships that you fly and your opponent is flying matters. Specifically, he can web and scram you and bump you off the gate. The Gallente ships are the least susceptable to this in situations where both of you will not be melted being able to get back the fastest and having the best type of tank to deal with that amount of DPS.

The second was emphasizing the opposite side of the coin, that the amount of people you are jumping in with makes a difference as to the efficacy of the ships you are bringing. If you have 20 guys then yea, blasters won't get much use. If you have 1-5 its a lot different. Being able to bump the enemy off the gate without losing DPS would be important then, being able to move quickly to get on top of someone and make sure they don't go anywhere 10-20km off would be important then.

I am emphasizing that your complaint has nothing to do with the quality of the ships and everything to do with what you want to do in Eve. You want to play in gangs and so the gang ships are better for you. Good for you. I want to play in gangs and that is why I chose and continue to choose Amarr. But you wanted to play in gangs and choose Gallente. And that is where the problem lies.


maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 15:45:00 - [459]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 20:50:13

Originally by: Goumindong


I am emphasizing that your complaint has nothing to do with the quality of the ships and everything to do with what you want to do in Eve.


No your not, your making unrealistic scenarios and assigning imposable and unfeasible roles to slow ass BS to try and give justification to a overpowered system.
Originally by: Goumindong
You want to play in gangs and so the gang ships are better for you. Good for you.


We are talking about specific turret battleships and these battleships are ALL gang ships because they lack the maneuverability, lock speed, available dmg vs the variety of ships in eve and basic ship speed to be effective solo ships.

Even in smallish gangs they need smaller support along with them or are vulnerable too as well as useless at tackling ships smaller or even the same size in some casses.

Originally by: Goumindong
I want to play in gangs and that is why I chose and continue to choose Amarr. But you wanted to play in gangs and choose Gallente. And that is where the problem lies.


So by that measure nothing should ever be balanced or changed or should have been balanced or changed EVER in eve cos you knew how they worked when you chose them?????..

Stop posting ffs you have supported every non-amarr nerf (and supported every amaar buff) going, so where was your "but you chose your ship live with it" pitch for those then??????????.


Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:36:00 - [460]
 

Edited by: Chi Quan on 12/12/2008 19:39:19
'cause i still find more stuff to add against the hypes
Originally by: Goumindong
People who want to kill you with short range BS will easily warp in right on top of you. Sitting right on a gate may give you more coverage over that gate, but it does not give you more advantage.

aha, so you admit that blasterships need a warpin in order to work? fine. i'll scratch the first pint on my list.
Originally by: Goumindong
It is not insignificant. Its actually pretty damned significant

this is significance / insignificance
Originally by: Goumindong
And if he is not? And if the Hyperions crash the gate? And if the Geddon and Rapier are jumping in rather than not? And if the Geddon has to run its guns and MWD for more than 2 minutes?[Hint, it does, time to kill numbers that gave the 2 minute kill on the Hyperion provided 5 ogres and AN MF, which you claim will not be used].

Look, you have to set up a perfect scenario for the Gallente to lose to the Amarr, they have more options to defend themselves from other gangs[via jumping] and have little to no weakness fighting up close.[where the Geddon has a massive problem].

first off: gallente can't jump worse or better than anyone else, the blastes have the same issues up close as your pulses (see the graphs in this thread), a webbed BS is an even slower slowa** BS. it doesn't matter if it's tripple webed from 2 hypes or dualwebbed from a rapier(and i doubt the hypes would put all webs on the geddon, but 2 is a good number)

second: if the geddon + rapier are jumping in, they can decide, do we take on the hypes or just warp. no way the BSes can lock with doublewebs or the web/td combo before the geddon/rapier warp. (in fact if they are marginally familiar with what they are facing and really want to warp, the geddon can initialize warp while the rapier hangs back in case things go south, it can even web the geddon to make it warp faster)
the hypes may have a chance to lock if they fit SBs (note: lock not kill or even engage), they have even less chances if they have warp disruptors fitted to counter mwds. provided the geddon gang (i'll just refer to it in that manner from now on) really does engage, the geddon would burn straight away from the hypes minimizing transversal while the rapier closes enough to use it's own webs still staying out of the hypes web rage (oh yea, the rapier can overheat just as well).
if geddon has a propulsion mod fited, it kills the hypes (they have a sigradius of a gas giant (mwd) combined with almost 0 tracking for the geddon and can't catch up fast enough because of the webs if geddon=AB; or can't close at all because the geddon=mwd and pulses it to stay out of range entirely, much better cap efficency as well), unless they themselves warp (why were they camping the gate than? hoping for another blaster ship to come through?).

can the hypes fit neuts to nuke the rapier's cap? theoretically yes, but if you wanted neuts, you'd take a domi over a hype or you need to get your head checked.

what if the geddon gang is unlucky enough to spawn right next to the hypes? well bad luck, but at least one ship from the geddon gang still gets away if it wants to and it would be a close call for the hypes if the geddongang chooses to fight, because the same tactic as above can be applied, the hypes just have more initial damage. luck has nothing to do with balance however, as the geddon gang could be in the same lucky situation and have the hypes spawn at pulse / web optimal without having to reposition or maneuver.
the hypes won't have 5 heavy drones of course, because 2/2/1 is so much better. and as elaborated, if they indeed deploy their drones, they will get shot down by the geddon gangs own drones and weapons (heavies even faster).
let the geddon fit shield transfer drones and it can very effectively protect the tackler.
[continuing...]

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:40:00 - [461]
 

Edited by: Chi Quan on 12/12/2008 19:49:55
if the geddongang warps in they are either WTZ (traveling through) and can't be stoped (no imba here, just in case someone tries to put words in my mouth). OR they enagege and warp at their optimal with the geddon warping in at around 45 an the and the rapier at it's web optimal + the ability to reposition fast. if they are afk autopiloting, they ... well you know the rest.

so, as you see, the hypes are only likely to win if:
- the geddon gang screws up
- they get plain lucky (hypes doing wrecking hits in a row, DC and somesuch)
- if they have the skillpoint advantage
(but as we are talking about skilled players here, these are non-issues). in other words the hypes can't INFLUENCE the outcome IN ANY WAY. (loss of initiative or inability of initiative)

i am eager to see what couterfitting you design to make the hypes win in this situation, remember though that those are blaster ships we are talking about. they fit omnitank, not omni res modules, meaning they are likely to indeed have an explo hardener. they won't fit remore reppers either, it's not their role.

you know what would really hurt the hypes: a torp raven and the rapier fitting a TP. coupled with the sig bloom from the mwds, the torps do full damage on the weakest resist (the raven can shoot rainbow to get through the shields and than switch to the most damaging). if you want to skew numbers do it right.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:45:00 - [462]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 22:49:42

Originally by: Chi Quan

this is significance / insignificance



Actually id say that the fact the amarr ship virtually matches or out damages the blasters at 5-10km while utterly out damaging them at 10km-30km and having no blaster dmg to compare with at all at 30km-60km is very relevant tbh.

So while the pretty pink circle is very relevant, if your amarr the green circle (AND THE BIT IN BETWEEN THE CIRCLES FOR THAT MATTER) is a big YAY as well......and that = overpowered.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:51:00 - [463]
 

:)
it depends on the wording: the difference at close range is insignificant comparing weapon systems. and the lasers are standing out like a martian on venus in the pink circle.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:56:00 - [464]
 

Edited by: maralt on 12/12/2008 17:58:59

Originally by: Chi Quan
:)
it depends on the wording: the difference at close range is insignificant comparing weapon systems. and the lasers are standing out like a martian on venus in the pink circle.


True although its for both our reasons/ranges and the general overpoweredness of pulse that im training for large t2 pulse lasers as we speak, 1 hour 50 mins to small pulse specialization lvl4.......Wink

SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.12 20:08:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Its only if you have knowledge of what will be shooting you before you fit that you can make use of specific tanking. Which is not a bad thing, since meta choices need to be strong and valuable. But it is something that can't really be balanced for since one side has an information advantage which is not easily quantifiable.


Just so that you know, in the 3x EANM + 1 DC example quoted above, 2x EANM + 1x Exp + 1x DC provides greater EHP. Your omnitanking example is only mathematically true where you fit less than 2 resistance plates.

Unless when you mean 'uniform' damage you actually meaning 'weighted' uniform damage based upon an analysis of ships you are likely to fight, in which case we can start speculating and I can provide a lot of scenarios where explosive hardeners continue to make sense.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.12 21:07:00 - [466]
 

Originally by: SecHaul


Just so that you know, in the 3x EANM + 1 DC example quoted above, 2x EANM + 1x Exp + 1x DC provides greater EHP. Your omnitanking example is only mathematically true where you fit less than 2 resistance plates.


At which point its more efficient to fit regular plates or damage mods.

SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.13 14:47:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: SecHaul


Just so that you know, in the 3x EANM + 1 DC example quoted above, 2x EANM + 1x Exp + 1x DC provides greater EHP. Your omnitanking example is only mathematically true where you fit less than 2 resistance plates.


At which point its more efficient to fit regular plates or damage mods.


More plates are only applicable on BS, and when you say more 'efficient' to fit more damage mods, that all depends on what you are trying to extract from your fit, and how many damage mods/rigs you have fitted already.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.12.13 21:45:00 - [468]
 

People all seem to talk about amarr & gallente. That the one is nerfed & the other one is overpowered. While the real problem that I see that minmatar completely SUCK.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.13 22:07:00 - [469]
 

Edited by: maralt on 13/12/2008 22:10:06
Originally by: Jalif
People all seem to talk about amarr & gallente. That the one is nerfed & the other one is overpowered. While the real problem that I see that minmatar completely SUCK.


All 3 short range BS gunnery systems need balancing tbh, either that or just train amarr as it out classes and virtually matches all systems at all their ranges while also being able to hit at ranges outside ALL the others.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.13 22:09:00 - [470]
 

Originally by: SecHaul


More plates are only applicable on BS, and when you say more 'efficient' to fit more damage mods, that all depends on what you are trying to extract from your fit, and how many damage mods/rigs you have fitted already.


Plates are applicable on every size of ship in the game. An 800mm plate more than doubles the size of any cruisers armor. A 400mm plate is over a 50% increase in hit points for a maller.

For those of you counting at home, that is the 30 pg frigate plate. The hardener is strictly worse in terms of EHP[in areas where EHP is typically more important against larger ships] even against the resistance its boosting nearly down to the frigate plate.

The same relationship exists for frigates and their plates. A punisher has 994 base armor, a 400mm plate gives 1050. A 200mm 525, over 50%.

The third stacked EANM, the one that "finally doesn't give more raw EHP than the hardener?" that adds 16.6% armor effective hit points. The second EANM is 27%

The same thing happens on the damage side. Damage is just as important as EHP is. If you trade damage for EHP you're discounting yourelf against all ships in order to be better against one.

The second heat sink adds 20% more weapon DPS. Which is again, strictly better than the 16% armor EHP gained by the third heat sink. Not quite on the second EANM, but unless your skills are spectacular and you're fitting all damage drones and you expect to get them the entire fight, damage has a slight edge over resistances[since a larger portion of your damage is modified than your hit points are modified].

So, lets get this straight. In order for the ex hardener to be more efficient you need to already be fitting on a battleship

3 1600mmrt, 2 eanm, 1 dc, and 2 damage mods. That is 8 slots. There isn't a BS in the game that gets better with the ex hardener. You might be able to argue the third plate, but its still only the armageddon able to do that[and the plate is still probably more efficient due to the low base armor on tier 1 ships.

On a cruiser you need

2 eanm, 2 damage, 1 dc, 1 plate. That is 6 low slots. There is only one cruiser in the game with more than 6 low slots. And its hands down the worse cruiser in the game. If you ignore the damage mods that is still 5 slots dedicated to tank, leaving only the rupture and thorax able to fit it... the rupture and thorax being top notch damage cruisers...

O.K. now on a frigate you need

2 eanm, dc, 1 plate and we can forgo the damage because no one cares if frigates do damage.

O.K. So, now after we have done some figuring we have come up with there being no cruisers, frigates, or battleships in the game that get better with the explosive hardener. You're actually better with intermediate plates[cruiser plates, 800mm] on a battlecruiser than you are specific hardeners in most cases.

I will re-iterate what i said before.

They are only for when you know what you're going to be fighting.

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.12.14 10:33:00 - [471]
 

Edited by: Jalif on 14/12/2008 10:34:43
Originally by: maralt
Edited by: maralt on 13/12/2008 22:10:06
Originally by: Jalif
People all seem to talk about amarr & gallente. That the one is nerfed & the other one is overpowered. While the real problem that I see that minmatar completely SUCK.


All 3 short range BS gunnery systems need balancing tbh, either that or just train amarr as it out classes and virtually matches all systems at all their ranges while also being able to hit at ranges outside ALL the others.


Uhm... no? Im not going to train for another race just because its FOTM.
I know the tracking problem of blasters but they don't SUCK. They are still an option to fly with & around me I see people still flying effective with them.

If you look at the graphs, you still need to put 2seige launcher on them so they look "good" on the graph. This is just strange to me because I need those 2 highslots either for neuts or remote armor repping (and even a smartbomb in some cases).

EDIT: and not to forget that we have to deal with a smaller dronebay.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.14 12:45:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: Jalif


Uhm... no? Im not going to train for another race just because its FOTM.



Fine by me bud train what you like its up to you, but as we both observe blasters and AC are way underpowered while lasers are overpowered.

ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.Very Happy

Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.12.14 13:02:00 - [473]
 

Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Jalif


Uhm... no? Im not going to train for another race just because its FOTM.



Fine by me bud train what you like its up to you, but as we both observe blasters and AC are way underpowered while lasers are overpowered.

ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.Very Happy


Well, if this was true? why is there no CCP? Uhmm? Maybe were are missing something?

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.14 13:08:00 - [474]
 

Edited by: maralt on 14/12/2008 13:10:19
Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Jalif


Uhm... no? Im not going to train for another race just because its FOTM.



Fine by me bud train what you like its up to you, but as we both observe blasters and AC are way underpowered while lasers are overpowered.

ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.Very Happy


Well, if this was true? why is there no CCP? Uhmm? Maybe were are missing something?


Did you miss the last few years of nano?.

CCP move at their own speed on balance issues tbh, and it is rather slower than our own space time continuum.


Jalif
Minmatar
Snuff Box
Posted - 2008.12.14 13:41:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: maralt
Edited by: maralt on 14/12/2008 13:10:19
Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Jalif


Uhm... no? Im not going to train for another race just because its FOTM.



Fine by me bud train what you like its up to you, but as we both observe blasters and AC are way underpowered while lasers are overpowered.

ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.Very Happy


Well, if this was true? why is there no CCP? Uhmm? Maybe were are missing something?


Did you miss the last few years of nano?.

CCP move at their own speed on balance issues tbh, and it is rather slower than our own space time continuum.




true enough... I hope they just spend 1 time on balancing instead of only bringing content.

SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.14 15:16:00 - [476]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Plates are applicable on every size of ship in the game. An 800mm plate more than doubles the size of any cruisers armor. A 400mm plate is over a 50% increase in hit points for a maller.


Once again, you do not read. The original fit had a single 1600mm plate on it, you replied that adding more plates is more effective. Please find a cruiser than can fit 2x plates, where one a is a 1600mm plate, that isn't a completely gimped doing it.

Secondly, your EANM calculation only consider T1 hulls, what about T2 hulls where base resistances are that much higher? In this scenario, EANMs are not more effective than specific hardeners to close resistance holes. And the flying of T2 hulls in EVE remains fairly significant.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.14 18:06:00 - [477]
 

and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters?

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.14 18:15:00 - [478]
 

Originally by: Chi Quan
and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters?


Nothing, its just yet another deflection from the issue of balance between close range BS weapons.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.12.15 10:20:00 - [479]
 

Originally by: Chi Quan
and what on earth do eanms have to do with missing tracking on blasters?


nothing ... it's just an academic debate about what makes you miss longer, an omnitank or a specific tank or active tank ...

way to side-track the discussion when all arguments are exhausted ...

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.15 11:16:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: SecHaul
Originally by: Goumindong
Plates are applicable on every size of ship in the game. An 800mm plate more than doubles the size of any cruisers armor. A 400mm plate is over a 50% increase in hit points for a maller.


Once again, you do not read. The original fit had a single 1600mm plate on it, you replied that adding more plates is more effective. Please find a cruiser than can fit 2x plates, where one a is a 1600mm plate, that isn't a completely gimped doing it.

Secondly, your EANM calculation only consider T1 hulls, what about T2 hulls where base resistances are that much higher? In this scenario, EANMs are not more effective than specific hardeners to close resistance holes. And the flying of T2 hulls in EVE remains fairly significant.


Did you not bother to read anything I wrote? The cruiser is out of slots by the time its efficient to fit specific hardeners. Whether or not it has a 1600mm plate on it.

Re: T2 high base resistances do not have an effect on the optimal tanking considerations by pure efficiency. They have an effect to disadvantage hull resistances and advantage repair based tanks.

And yea, EM is a pretty good damage type against t2 ships, right up there with EX[thermal and kinetic being the worse]


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