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Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:15:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: maralt
Edited by: maralt on 08/12/2008 14:45:32
Blaster rokh?.

The tracking of a hyperion, a slightly better max range and rather lower dmg.


Not likely lower dmg, eh?

Don't forget, Rokh is a shield tanker, he has 4 slots for gun boosts.

Gun DPS

Boost..........AM / NULL.......Range (Optimal+Fallof)
Rokh: 4xMag:...........880 / 701 DPS........20KM /33KM
Rokh: 3xMag,1xTE:...831 / 662 DPS........21KM /35KM
Mega: 2xMag:...........810 / 645 DPS........17.5KM/27KM
Hype: 1xMag:...........776 / 618 DPS........17.5KM/27KM

/Riv

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:18:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
very funny ... the more the longer thread grows ... good that Bellum does not care about this much anymore ...


That is cos the longer the thread goes on the closer he is to finishing training amarr (like the rest of us)Rolling Eyes.


5d till Amarr BS4, 19d till Large Pulse Spec 1 and counting...

Nikuno
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:22:00 - [363]
 

I've been following this thread all through and just had to throw my hat into the ring. Up until QR I've flown blasterthrons, now I fly pulse abaddons. The blasterthron is still a very valid ship for station fights but is sadly redundant in most other circumstances now. The abaddon is a total brick to fly, but the extra range and ability to instantly switch ammunition for changing range makes it now far superior to the blastermeg.
As for Goum, please make comparisons balanced. It doesn't matter how readily available you feel boosters are, they are still used in a minority of circumstances. Also pitching bs against a different tier is skewing the fight considerably. Repeat your scenario with the 2 hyps, no booster vs a rapier and an abaddon and you'll see the hyperions will lose very heavily.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.09 12:15:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Nikuno

As for Goum, please make comparisons balanced. It doesn't matter how readily available you feel boosters are, they are still used in a minority of circumstances. Also pitching bs against a different tier is skewing the fight considerably. Repeat your scenario with the 2 hyps, no booster vs a rapier and an abaddon and you'll see the hyperions will lose very heavily.


He wanted to use the Armageddon. The Hyps will work just as well against an Abaddon.

The Armageddon also isn't using a repair unit, but that does not mean that we should turn the reppers on the Hyperions off to be "fair"

Originally by: Theron Gyrow

No, Berserkers aren't fast enough. (Full Rapier fit: cloak, 3*650mm II; MWD, point, 2*web, LSE2, TD; DC2, 2*ODI2, dam mod; 2*CDFE.) Hammerheads can just keep up and are the worst danger


When was the last time you looked at patch notes? 2049 is not that fast.

Also, hammerheads are not that slow.

Quote:


Goumindong, some basic tactical thinking, please. If the Rapier has a TD, it sits at 30km, takes one Hyperion's guns out of the fight completely and is utterly immune to the other one's guns at the same time.



It sits at 30km while keeping a point and TD on one, and a web on two Hyperions while maintaining his 2000m/s top speed?

Originally by: maralt

You are, everybody on here knows it and can bet that if lasers were stuck with being only effective at their longest range and could not hit in close you would be spamming the forums with thread after thread just like you do with non-amarr issues.

What if lasers could hit well at optimal but hit for nothing inside 30km (just like blasters cannot hit outside 30km), especially if along with that blasters could hit harder than lasers from 30-50km and only hit slightly less at 50-60km?.


Ignoring the qualities of the ships, Blasters get better at...

14km

Optimal range of Mega Pulse Laser w/ AN MF L

15km.

Wait, what were you saying?

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.09 13:42:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Theron Gyrow

No, Berserkers aren't fast enough. (Full Rapier fit: cloak, 3*650mm II; MWD, point, 2*web, LSE2, TD; DC2, 2*ODI2, dam mod; 2*CDFE.) Hammerheads can just keep up and are the worst danger


When was the last time you looked at patch notes? 2049 is not that fast.


Dear Goumindong, Berserker IIs with maxed skills go 1575 m/s. 2049 m/s > 1575 m/s. The Rapier can avoid any heavy drones until it runs out of cap.

Quote:
Also, hammerheads are not that slow.


Dear Goumindong, Hammerhead IIs with maxed skills go 2100 m/s. You can of course decide that 2049 m/s is "not that fast" and 2100 m/s is "not that slow" if you want to, but I'd hesitate to make the difference between those numbers more meaningful than it is.

(As I said, they can just keep up and are effective against the Rapier, but they will not be able to orbit and thus will be easy to hit.)

Quote:
Quote:

Goumindong, some basic tactical thinking, please. If the Rapier has a TD, it sits at 30km, takes one Hyperion's guns out of the fight completely and is utterly immune to the other one's guns at the same time. Geddon holds the point on the other ship and kills it from 23km while sustaining some armor damage.



It sits at 30km while keeping a point and TD on one, and a web on two Hyperions while maintaining his 2000m/s top speed?


Dear Goumindong, I have taken the liberty to add the first sentence you cut from my post back to the bit you quoted - it might answer your question. In case it does not, let me spell it out - Geddon holds the point on one Hyperion, Rapier has a TD on the other one and a web on at least that one, probably on both. Hope this cleared up your confusion?

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 14:43:00 - [366]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 14:56:01



Originally by: Goumindong


I am ignoring everything that does not suit me and my overpowered race




How about this then:

Fix pulse so they hit for max dmg at 45-60km with a reduction/falloff in dmg down to 30km and under 30km they miss totally.

After all blasters hit for max at 3-15km (actually less than that so a range/ammo/dmg buff maybe needed) with the same fall off reduction from 15-30km as the above pulse would have from 45-30km and a inability to hit over 30km just like pulse cannot hit under 30km.

NOW how would you feel if pulse had the opposite but the same relative short comings that blasters have as i have shown above????..

Pulse are broken and ze "balance" bat cometh.



maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 14:58:00 - [367]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 15:11:10

Originally by: Goumindong


Originally by: maralt

You are, everybody on here knows it and can bet that if lasers were stuck with being only effective at their longest range and could not hit in close you would be spamming the forums with thread after thread just like you do with non-amarr issues.

What if lasers could hit well at optimal but hit for nothing inside 30km (just like blasters cannot hit outside 30km), especially if along with that blasters could hit harder than lasers from 30-50km and only hit slightly less at 50-60km?.


I AM GONNA ignore the facts and hope ppl are deaf blind and stupid......

14km

Optimal range of Mega Pulse Laser w/ AN MF L

15km.

Wait, what were you saying?


I WAS SAYING THIS, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER GRAPHS YOU HAVE NO ANSWER FOR

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


ANYBODY CAN SEE HOW OVERPOWERED AMARR ARE COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER RACE.

Nikuno
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:25:00 - [368]
 

Goum, how do you decide, without figures or explanation, that the abaddon will face the same result that a geddon would?

If we take your hyperions travelling at 950m/s under mwd, then apply a 60% web to drop them to 380m/s, then assume the abaddon only does 100m/s away from them to get a closing rate of 280m/s. Apply a scram when the 2 get within range of each other and one hyp falls further back. Give the abaddon a web and the problem for the first hyp to hit the abaddon's tackle range has very serious problems. During this time the abaddon will not be using x-ray. At the very least it will be using multifrequency. This is a large window of opportunity for an abaddon. Given the abaddon's superior tank it is also likely to be fitted for more damage than a geddon. So the dps to the approaching hyp is higher than you misled us to believe in your rigged scenario.

Then we have the overheating on your hyperions reps, but no overheating to the amarr weaponry. This seems a touch unbalanced. If I was in this fight my first thoughts would be to melt one of the hyperions as quickly as possible to halve the dps. And since, in your scenarion the hy[s are sending small drones after the rapier the incoming dps from the hyps would be a lot lower while I accomplished this, placing much less strain on my cap.

No, whichever way you try to mislead us, this scenario would always end with at least one hyperion dead if the pilot was anything other than an imbecile. As you're not generally considered to be an imbecile I am led to believe that you are intentionally mixing your own agenda with selective figures to further your own goals. I Don't care what your agenda is, but it would be nice for once for a thread to be devoid of personal interest and for the matter to be discussed as objectively as possible.

Not that you are the only one pushing an agenda here.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:27:00 - [369]
 

Originally by: Theron Gyrow


Dear Goumindong, Berserker IIs with maxed skills go 1575 m/s. 2049 m/s > 1575 m/s. The Rapier can avoid any heavy drones until it runs out of cap.


Dear Theron Gyrow, Agility.

Quote:

Dear Goumindong, Hammerhead IIs with maxed skills go 2100 m/s.


Dear Theron Gyrow, Agility

Quote:

Dear Goumindong, I have taken the liberty to add the first sentence you cut from my post back to the bit you quoted - it might answer your question. In case it does not, let me spell it out - Geddon holds the point on one Hyperion, Rapier has a TD on the other one and a web on at least that one, probably on both. Hope this cleared up your confusion?


Dear Theron Gyrow, you're still describing an impossiblility or a won fight for the Hyperions.

Unless your rapier has a 30km scram that you're not telling us about. The same applies for the Geddon, at 20-24km its got a very thin window and all the Hyperions have to do is make sure they are both not less than 10km apart to foil it. Not to mention the fact that if your Geddon hangs out at 20km against one of the Hyperion it still looses since it dies before the Hyp does even with the Hyps very low DPS at that range.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:46:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Nikuno
100m/s away from them to get a closing rate of 280m/s. Apply a scram when the 2 get within range of each other and one hyp falls further back


When the two get within web range the Abaddon will be webbed, possibly twice. The Hyp will gain ground. It will gradually lose speed as its MWD is turned off, but the Abaddon will be reduced to between 20 and 10m/s from 2-3 webs of the two Hypes. The Geddon is assuming an MWD, which is necessary.

Quote:
. Given the abaddon's superior tank it is also likely to be fitted for more damage than a geddon. So the dps to the approaching hyp is higher than you misled us to believe in your rigged scenario.


The Abaddon cannot be fitted for "more damage" than the Geddon. The Geddon simply does more RAW and real damage due to drones. If you fit three heat sinks your Abaddon will do slightly more RAW gun DPS[gun DPS only], but you will lose out on real DPS since much much more of it comes in the form of EM rather than thermal. This is especially nasty against a repping tank.

Quote:

Then we have the overheating on your hyperions reps, but no overheating to the amarr weaponry. This seems a touch unbalanced.


You can overheat the guns on the Abaddon for about 1 minute. You can overheat the rep on the Hyperion for three minutes and 30 seconds(and a tad bit more). Go right ahead and figure the Abaddon for overloading its reps. We can figure the Hyperion for overloading its MWD[2 minutes on that, 1247m/s], neither will matter. The 1 minute of overloading will not bring down the Hyperion, it won't really get close.

Quote:

No, whichever way you try to mislead us, this scenario would always end with at least one hyperion dead if the pilot was anything other than an imbecile


Originally by: maralt
A graph showing blaster ships doing the most DPS under 13km.


I don't get it. That doesn't say nearly what you want it to say.

Originally by: maralt


NOW how would you feel if pulse had the opposite but the same relative short comings that blasters have as i have shown above????..



If the warp in range was 60km and webs went to 50km i would feel O.K. Though i have a feeling lasers in that situation might be a bit much(depending on where blasters started doing DPS). Otherwise i would say that there was an imbalance in the system.

i would say that because of standard engagement ranges that currently exist and the way that combat occurs in eve that the only valuable ships until you started sniping would be blaster ships.

The value of range varies based on the number of people that you are flying with. This means that for the situation you have presented, pulse ships would have no value. They would be eclipsed in all ways by sniping ships as soon as it was possible for them to see use.

If you want to remove from the game entirely the concept of ships that are better in medium sized gangs than others, then yea, that is what you will get if you buff blasters. You will get a ship that everyone uses in solo, small gangs, and medium gangs. And you will ruin your ability to pick on the lone specialized gang ships when you choose the specialized solo ships.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:46:00 - [371]
 

Originally by: Rivqua
Originally by: maralt
Edited by: maralt on 08/12/2008 14:45:32
Blaster rokh?.

The tracking of a hyperion, a slightly better max range and rather lower dmg.


Not likely lower dmg, eh?

Don't forget, Rokh is a shield tanker, he has 4 slots for gun boosts.

Gun DPS

Boost..........AM / NULL.......Range (Optimal+Fallof)
Rokh: 4xMag:...........880 / 701 DPS........20KM /33KM
Rokh: 3xMag,1xTE:...831 / 662 DPS........21KM /35KM
Mega: 2xMag:...........810 / 645 DPS........17.5KM/27KM
Hype: 1xMag:...........776 / 618 DPS........17.5KM/27KM

/Riv


Thanks - I was hoping someone could plug that into the graph so I could see how it compared at various ranges with that given scenario.

I always intended to fly that ship with NULL and just stay out of web range.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:55:00 - [372]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 16:06:32


Originally by: maralt

NOW how would you feel if pulse had the opposite but the same relative short comings that blasters have as i have shown above????..

Originally by: Goumindong

If the warp in range was 60km


Warpin range is what you choose it to be and with 5-60km of effective range to choose from (and in 45-55km of that the 5-60km pulse outdmg and out range or both all other systems) and that = pulse are overpowered.



SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.09 15:58:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
I just got through explaining to you what that tackler costs you...



Goum, you are assuming that all pilots can fly all ships, and therefore there is opportunity cost. You are also assuming that all pilots want to fly, and have all ships available to fly, at all times, such that there is opportunity cost.

It has been my experience, and I guess in GS where you have thousands to blob with you may not have this experience, that a large number of pilots enjoy small ships, cannot fly big ships, and therefore your opinion of opportunity cost is skewed. Either way, regardless of what that tackler is, all that tackler needs is 2 webs and a scram.

Therefore, I would rather have 4 Abaddons and a Hyperion, than 5 Hyperions, or 9 Abaddons and a Hyperion, than 10 Hyperions. When you lose your tackling Hyperion, one of the remaining Abaddons warps off and hops into his fully fit Hyperion that he has perfect skills for, which would remove your idea of opportunity cost, and you continue.

The tackler doesn't have to be a frig Goum.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 16:05:00 - [374]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 16:05:55
Originally by: SecHaul
Originally by: Goumindong
I just got through explaining to you what that tackler costs you...



Goum, you are assuming that all pilots can fly all ships, and therefore there is opportunity cost. You are also assuming that all pilots want to fly, and have all ships available to fly, at all times, such that there is opportunity cost.


Ignore him he is setting scenarios that are ultra rare or non existent and imposable that he hopes will make pulse look less overpowering, unfortunately he is failing miserably.

Communicating with him like he is just a little ignorant is wrong because he knows exactly what he is ignoring and exactly what he is doing, he is avoiding and trying to cloud the issue with irrelevant data hoping you will bite all to deflect you from the truth and the real issue. And just doing that in itself shows how much he actually knows how overpowered pulse are compared to other the systems.

SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.09 16:10:00 - [375]
 

Edited by: SecHaul on 09/12/2008 16:11:37
Originally by: Goumindong
Dot dot dot.

I am not sure what this adds to the thread. However, the OP started this thread out in continuation of his 'buff' blasters. I disagreed that the solution is to buff blasters in isolation, or provide blaster boats with web bonuses, because then you have 2 out-of-balance weapon systems, with projectiles and missiles lagging behind.

Originally by: Goumindong
2. I am directly responsible to the recent nerf to locus rigs, a change that hurt Amarr the most. I don't make this claim lightly, during the speed changing tests on sisi, the developers didn't even know it wasn't fixed. It would not have gotten fixed had i not specifically informed them[via local] that it needed to get done.
Let me get this straight, everyone knew the locus rigs did not stack before QR, it was no secret. Every Amarr battleship pilot in my alliance knew this, and used this, to their advantage. Now, the current change to locus rigs is not a nerf, it's correction of an error - it should have always stacked.

By continually saying this it seems you believe that you deserve a star. Apart from the fact that several thousand players knew the exact same thing. I am glad you mentioned it in local, our saviour. Get over yourself already.

Either way, the locus rig was only that effective because of the root cause - lasers with scorch have *massive* optimal. In my opinion your 'star' fixed the symptom, not the cause, which is "lasers with scorch" provides such a massive optimal advantage that it is unbalancing in my opinion for races that fight in falloff.

Originally by: Goumindong
3. I have been against the pulse tracking boost, partially against the resistance changes[there was a reason to do it for snipers, and now as efficient sniping theory has advanced its pretty easy to see how it was a very good change in that regard], and against the optimal bonus increase on the Apoc. These changes were unnecessary. But all but one did not overpower Amarr battleships. The one that did, has nothing to do with this topic anyway because the Apoc is not overpowered in the ranges we are discussing, but rather has removed a niche that was once filled by Gallente snipers


Goum, the combination of changes to Amarr (and webs) have now resulted in lasers, on battleship platforms, being the most effective weapons platforms. I do believe blaster boats have roles, however their roles are now so massively reduced, that in most scenarios in EVE it makes sense to use lasers. Simply look around, medium to large gangs are common in EVE, a lot more common than these solo - 3 man gangs.

And as for opportunity cost, once you have 5 battleships, provided they don't sit in a clump, no target is going to be able to orbit one without getting nuked by the other 4.

Originally by: Goumindong
I resent your allegations that I am somehow "biased" towards the ships I fly
And I resent your allegations that you believe my opinion is wrong. Boo hoo, let's get this resentment over with.

I truly believe you are biased in the ships you fly, because you have very strong opinion about what their role is. By not having flown blaster boats, you are quick to dismiss and ignore every blaster boat pilot providing their opinion based upon your 'facts'. That is bias to me.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.09 17:13:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: SecHaul
Originally by: Goumindong
I just got through explaining to you what that tackler costs you...



Goum, you are assuming that all pilots can fly all ships, and therefore there is opportunity cost. You are also assuming that all pilots want to fly, and have all ships available to fly, at all times, such that there is opportunity cost.


The tackler doesn't have to be a frig Goum.


1. There is always opporrunity cost: It just changes

2. The assumption that people like to fly different ships swings both ways. What people can fly and what they want to fly has little relevance as to whether or not its balanced. A ship with a -20% ROF/level bonus but 8 base DPS is not balanced just because no one has trained the ship skill to 5 yet.

Similarly i could not say that blasters are fine because those pilots can't fly Abaddons and so the opportunity cost for bringing their blaster ship is zero.

Quote:

Therefore, I would rather have 4 Abaddons and a Hyperion, than 5 Hyperions, or 9 Abaddons and a Hyperion, than 10 Hyperions. When you lose your tackling Hyperion, one of the remaining Abaddons warps off and hops into his fully fit Hyperion that he has perfect skills for, which would remove your idea of opportunity cost, and you continue.



1. It takes time to get your ship
2. If the tackler is a battleship then you're pretty much acknowledging there is no problem with the blasterships...

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 17:23:00 - [377]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 17:41:30
Originally by: Goumindong
More irrelevant, deliberately misinterpreted and misleading posting



Battleships are worthless tacklers/solo ships and you would lose a LOT of opportunities to kill things by using them as such instead of having proper tacklers in your gang.

And amarr pulse BS + tackle gang > torp or AC or blaster BS (or a mix of each) + tackle gang.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.09 17:28:00 - [378]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 09/12/2008 17:31:47
Originally by: SecHaul

I am not sure what this adds to the thread.


In one instance you say that you have to use the weapons to know about them and then in the second instance you then say you don't use blasters or lasers.

Quote:
Let me get this straight, everyone knew the locus rigs did not stack before QR, it was no secret[...]Get over yourself already.


I think you are missing the point. You claimed that i am a partisan for lasers. If i were a partisan for lasers, why when given the chance to speak directly to the people who have the reigns, would i have pointed out a bug that had been benefiting lasers?

It has nothing to do with me being anyones "savior" and everything to do with countering a claim.

Quote:

Either way, the locus rig was only that effective because of the root cause - lasers with scorch have *massive* optimal.


Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. No. No it wasn't. It was one of the issues. But not nearly the only.

Quote:
Simply look around, medium to large gangs are common in EVE, a lot more common than these solo - 3 man gangs.


1. We have established that for medium gangs rails are, while not better than other options, perfectly serviceable.

2. If you buff blasters(and ACs) to be competitive in medium to large gangs you ruin all the other weapons that are not as effective in small to medium gangs. You ruin any form of meta choice based on gang size and you ruin the ability to pick targets in a solo and small gang setting.

I.E. Why would someone fly a laser ship if they can fly a blaster ship and be as effective in a gang but not have as many weaknesses when they are alone?

Quote:
I truly believe you are biased in the ships you fly, because you have very strong opinion about what their role is. By not having flown blaster boats, you are quick to dismiss and ignore every blaster boat pilot providing their opinion based upon your 'facts'. That is bias to me.


No, i am simply quick to dismiss people who complain that their ship does not fit the role that they want it to rather than the role that it is designed for. If you train ECM ships and then wonder why you can't solo, its your own fault. If you train lasers and wonder why you have to be in a gang to be effective, its your own fault. If you train blasters and refuse to train railguns and then complain that you aren't effective in a gang, its your own fault.

Its only a problem if the ship is not filling its role and these ships largely are.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.09 17:50:00 - [379]
 

Edited by: maralt on 09/12/2008 18:46:43



Originally by: Goumindong


No, i am simply quick to dismiss people who complain that their ship does not fit the role that they want it to rather than the role that it is designed for.


Your quick to dismiss amarr needing to be balanced with the other races and even quicker to ignore that it is overpowered.

Your quick to assign it a role that just happens to coincide with that overpowerdness.

Your even quicker to ignore that amarr close to equal or out class every other ship at those other races ships supposed "roll'd" ranges, along with the fact that amarr can also hit hard at ranges the other races cannot begin to reach.

Your quick to tell other races that they should need two weapon systems to even begin to compete with amarrs single system.

IN OTHER WORDS YOUR TOTALLY BIASED.

Nikuno
Posted - 2008.12.09 19:13:00 - [380]
 

Goum

Quote:
When the two get within web range the Abaddon will be webbed, possibly twice. The Hyp will gain ground. It will gradually lose speed as its MWD is turned off, but the Abaddon will be reduced to between 20 and 10m/s from 2-3 webs of the two Hypes. The Geddon is assuming an MWD, which is necessary.


But one of the hyperions in my scenario is also double webbed - once by the abaddon, once by the rapier. If the abaddon also has a scram then that hyperion will never close, and it will die.

Quote:
The Abaddon cannot be fitted for "more damage" than the Geddon. The Geddon simply does more RAW and real damage due to drones. If you fit three heat sinks your Abaddon will do slightly more RAW gun DPS[gun DPS only], but you will lose out on real DPS since much much more of it comes in the form of EM rather than thermal. This is especially nasty against a repping tank.


Again I would disagree. If the hyperion pilots are again anything other than fools they will kill the drones from geddon or abaddon with their own, when they aren't attacking the rapier with them as you suggest they should.

Quote:
You can overheat the guns on the Abaddon for about 1 minute. You can overheat the rep on the Hyperion for three minutes and 30 seconds(and a tad bit more). Go right ahead and figure the Abaddon for overloading its reps. We can figure the Hyperion for overloading its MWD[2 minutes on that, 1247m/s], neither will matter. The 1 minute of overloading will not bring down the Hyperion, it won't really get close.


If you rely on basic damage the hyp will eat cap boosts more slowly, it's the abaddon's best interest to make one hyp pilot burn his charges as fast as possible, and overheating dps WHILST the hyp is running mwd and rep is the best way to achieve this. Also bear in mind that the freer hyp will be tracking disrupted by the rapier while closing and the dual webbed hyperion will die long before the abaddon begins to suffer.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.12.09 21:48:00 - [381]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Theron Gyrow


Dear Goumindong, Berserker IIs with maxed skills go 1575 m/s. 2049 m/s > 1575 m/s. The Rapier can avoid any heavy drones until it runs out of cap.


Dear Theron Gyrow, Agility.


Sweetcheeks, again you're desperately throwing out words without any facts to back it up. It's not becoming, do please stop it. I actually tested this, and I did not drop under 2km/s on 30km orbit. I do have some implants which help, but I wasn't in a gang, so I do think that I can safely say that no heavy drone is going to catch that Rapier.

Quote:
Quote:

Dear Goumindong, Hammerhead IIs with maxed skills go 2100 m/s.


Dear Theron Gyrow, Agility


Cutie-pie, you have to tell me what you mean here. Are you saying that Hammerheads will be able to orbit the Rapier?Laughing

Quote:
Quote:

Dear Goumindong, I have taken the liberty to add the first sentence you cut from my post back to the bit you quoted - it might answer your question. In case it does not, let me spell it out - Geddon holds the point on one Hyperion, Rapier has a TD on the other one and a web on at least that one, probably on both. Hope this cleared up your confusion?


Dear Theron Gyrow, you're still describing an impossiblility or a won fight for the Hyperions.

Unless your rapier has a 30km scram that you're not telling us about. The same applies for the Geddon, at 20-24km its got a very thin window and all the Hyperions have to do is make sure they are both not less than 10km apart to foil it. Not to mention the fact that if your Geddon hangs out at 20km against one of the Hyperion it still looses since it dies before the Hyp does even with the Hyps very low DPS at that range.


Do show the numbers for this, dearest - because I'm calling you a bald-faced liar. Do remember the TD and the 170 DPS coming from Rapier (90 DPS) and five Warrior 2s (80 DPS) from Geddon, which is mostly explosive type.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.12.09 22:02:00 - [382]
 

ok, i'll bite as well.

goum, what tactic should the hypes be using to fulfill their role and succeed in this small gang engagement (provided they have a general 2 man gang fit, it was already mentioned above if i'm not mistaken)?

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.12.10 01:50:00 - [383]
 

I have ammar BS V and L Pulse Spec V in one char and Minie BS V and simmialr gunnery skills on other char.

While currently ammar BS are superior to minamtar, peopel here are OVER expressing them as massively superior ships that they are NOT.

A tempest will be SEVERAL times more effective against HACs and other small stuff than any ammar BS. on a 1v1 a TEmpest will be a incredbly tough adversary to any ammar BS. Just fit a damm AB (YES try it before calling people noobs, noob is the one that discard a scenario without even experimenting it) A tempest with 1 TD and AB can just LOL at any ammar BS. That makes tempest overpowered? LOLLL calling tempest overpowered is like calling DD a clever and well tough game mechanic.

A Hurricane can pretty much kill any ammar BS on a hyphotetical 1v1. While it would be crushed by a megathron or tempest.

When you mix a lot of ships. then the ships singularities become less and less relevant. The more and more ships you put in fight the more and more the fight skips into ammar battleground, where sheers anihilative power at middle range rules. The less ships you use the more it skews into minmatar battleground where avoiding enemy DPS and crippling enemy rule.. See that is called balance.

Also funny how people keep forgetting that resistances still work against ammar most of times ,specially since the EM res nerf that made absolutely EVERYBODY use EANM (before the nerf a few people would use tri hardners still)

Some balances might be deserved. But Ammar has finally become useful. Don't spoil it just because you are whining children that cannot see the game not be exactly as you wanted.






SecHaul
Posted - 2008.12.10 04:37:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
1. It takes time to get your ship
2. If the tackler is a battleship then you're pretty much acknowledging there is no problem with the blasterships...


I have always said that in a solo or small gang environment, using other battleships is an alternative. The moment the gang increases in size, and you have a tackler, you may as well use lasers. My statement hasn't changed, you just continue to try twist words. Since EVE isn't made of solo or small gangs, but the standard scenario will have tacklers, you quickly eliminate the need for close range ships and lasers become to the weapon of choice.

Originally by: Goumindong
In one instance you say that you have to use the weapons to know about them and then in the second instance you then say you don't use blasters or lasers.
Please find this statement, because I never made it. Just like I have used 'math' to 'numbers' to compare the data to make my conclusions, which you yourself has said is a perfectly respectable way of making conclusions.

Originally by: Goumindong
I.E. Why would someone fly a laser ship if they can fly a blaster ship and be as effective in a gang but not have as many weaknesses when they are alone?
I perfectly agree with you, however why would someone fly a blaster ship when they are not effective in small to large gangs. The only time they are more effective is in solo to 'very small' gangs. I also believe the average battleship can no longer solo due to the changes in webs, removing that option, leaving 'very small' gangs. I would like to see more reasons / scenarios where flying close range ships makes sense.

Originally by: Goumindong
No, i am simply quick to dismiss people who complain that their ship does not fit the role that they want it to rather than the role that it is designed for. If you train ECM ships and then wonder why you can't solo, its your own fault. If you train lasers and wonder why you have to be in a gang to be effective, its your own fault. If you train blasters and refuse to train railguns and then complain that you aren't effective in a gang, its your own fault.

Its only a problem if the ship is not filling its role and these ships largely are.
And I am quick to dismiss someone that doesn't understand that after the QR release, substantial changes were made to ships roles. Reduction in webs, changes to speed, increases to agility, have change the historical roles of ships. However, since you do not fly these ships, apparently you don't care about the impact on their roles.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.10 05:16:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: SecHaul
Please find this statement, because I never made it. Just like I have used 'math' to 'numbers' to compare the data to make my conclusions, which you yourself has said is a perfectly respectable way of making conclusions.


This was the quotes that i replied to as "Dot Dot Dot"

Quote:
I perfectly agree with you, however why would someone fly a blaster ship when they are not effective in small to large gangs.


1. They are effective in small gangs(remember, ships die). You can use rails otherwise.

2. Why should we break essential balance of the game and remove entirely the deficiencies of gang ships?

What benefit do we get from breaking the game?

Quote:
I also believe the average battleship can no longer solo due to the changes in webs, removing that option, leaving 'very small' gangs


Yes, the average battleship. I.E. not the solo battleships like the Tempest, Dominix, and Hyperion, aren't able to do it... But others are. Geddons cant solo either. Whop de do, they aren't supposed to.

Rhadamantine
Game Community
Posted - 2008.12.10 06:30:00 - [386]
 

I can't believe you're all falling for Goum's trolling still.

I can imagine having a discussion with him face to face, you would put you point forward, but at the same time his fingers would be in his ears and he'd be saying lalalalalalalalalala. LaughingLaughingLaughing

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.10 09:47:00 - [387]
 

Edited by: maralt on 10/12/2008 09:49:12

Interesting that amarr pulse are so overpowered that the only suggestions to come even close to matching them is to dock and refit rails or blasters depending on the situation. SO 1 WEAPON SYSTEM THAT IS OVERALL AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER AND MORE EFFECTIVE/VERSATILE THAN TWO IS APPARENTLY NOT OVERPOWERED.....Shocked

Or that just because ships die to other ships that things are ok (strange how the same individuals dismissed that argument during their nano jihad) or that webs at 90% were considered ineffective on rapiers and fast ships pre nerf but now they are 60% suddenly they are considered great when fitted to BS..........LaughingLaughingLaughing

That ppl who fly amarr consider this balanced and also consider that fixing this obvious overpowered system or buffing others to be more effective to be breaking the game.Rolling Eyes

And especially that just because a very limited few ships have the ability to fit a web or two that ppl think solo BS pvp is thriving or that it makes the slightest difference at to the fact that a single weapon system can virtually match all the others dmg at their available ranges while also hitting out way past anything any other system can reach.

ZE "BALANCE" BAT COMETH.LaughingLaughing

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.10 11:18:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: maralt

Interesting that amarr pulse are so overpowered that the only suggestions to come even close to matching them is to dock and refit rails or blasters depending on the situation. SO 1 WEAPON SYSTEM THAT IS OVERALL AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER AND MORE EFFECTIVE/VERSATILE THAN TWO IS APPARENTLY NOT OVERPOWERED...


Pulse lasers are not more effecctive/versatile than railguns. They are more effective within a small window, and that is all. Very much like the blaster/pulse relationship.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.12.10 11:20:00 - [389]
 

Edited by: maralt on 10/12/2008 11:41:11
Edited by: maralt on 10/12/2008 11:22:37
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt

Interesting that amarr pulse are so overpowered that the only suggestions to come even close to matching them is to dock and refit rails or blasters depending on the situation. SO 1 WEAPON SYSTEM THAT IS OVERALL AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER AND MORE EFFECTIVE/VERSATILE THAN TWO IS APPARENTLY NOT OVERPOWERED...


Pulse lasers are not more effecctive/versatile than railguns. They are more effective within a small window, and that is all. Very much like the blaster/pulse relationship.


Rails are a totally different weapon system thats equivalent system is beams and beams > rails in all situations as well.

And most ppl i know do not have time or the ability to refit their blasters for rails mid combat......while pulse are a single system with a rather fast reload.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.12.10 11:50:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: maralt


Rails are a totally different weapon system thats equivalent system is beams and beams > rails in all situations as well.

And most ppl i know do not have time or the ability to refit their blasters for rails mid combat......while pulse are a single system with a rather fast reload.


Pulse lasers are much more similar to rails than blasters.

Beams are not better than rails in all situations.

The problem here is not with the weapon, its with the idea that you should be best in small gangs and medium/large gangs as well, especially without refitting.


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