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Cristl
Posted - 2008.11.28 04:25:00 - [1]
 

At the moment the moomin, designed primarily as a sniper is pretty sub-par. In a typical glass-cannon sniper setup it does about 60% of the damage as a zealot with about 87% of the tracking (with similar ranges). That's a massive difference - 3 zealots do the damage of 5 muninns.

The utility highslots aren't much help at range and are difficult to fit anyway.

Moving a high slot to a low slot wouldn't be overpowered but would help a bit, and would leave the ship distinct from the zealot (drones, utility high).

Additionally, artillery turrets thenselves could use a slight buff too in my opinion.

Cristl
Posted - 2008.11.28 12:23:00 - [2]
 

No opinions at all?

Okay, I'm now opening this thread up for flames Wink

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.11.28 13:25:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 28/11/2008 13:25:47
That (hi->mid) could solve a lot of Munin's problems, yes.

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.11.28 13:42:00 - [4]
 

2 highs -> one mid + one low = fixed muninn :)

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2008.11.28 15:09:00 - [5]
 

what about fixing arty?

Kuzya Morozov
Gallente
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2008.11.28 15:33:00 - [6]
 

What about fixing Minmatar? What about fixing EVE?!?!?

Cristl
Posted - 2008.11.28 15:36:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: To mare
what about fixing arty?


Agreed here too. Arty has crap dps, tracking and range. Zero cap use is not really important for sniping and high alpha's glory days are long past since the hp boosts and advent of buffertank with RR.

I don't think massive changes are a good idea, but a small, say 5%, increase in damage multiplier would help. Giving tracking enhancers and computers a small falloff bonus would help somewhat too.

Lokius Ahgamemnon
Minmatar
Atlas Technologies
Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
Posted - 2008.11.28 18:45:00 - [8]
 

Actually my ill informed friends.
Muninn is better than a Zealot at what the Muninn is designed for.
Muninn has higher alpha than a Zealot but Zealot can out dps a Muninn.
Muninn has better tracking at it's optimal Zealot has comparable or equal.
Muninn has two utility high slots.
I usually stick drone lik augs in them to put my drone rage out to about 85km which is handy for them incoming inty's.

Now.

I'm not sure if taking 1 high putting it to a mid would help the muninn.
I'm not sure if taking 2 high and putting them to low and mid would help.
It would be interesting to see though.

I'd miss those utility slots though :(

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.29 13:03:00 - [9]
 

Same for eagle -1 high slot +1 med or low slot

bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2008.11.29 15:39:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: bldyannoyed on 29/11/2008 15:39:56
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon
Actually my ill informed friends.
Muninn is better than a Zealot at what the Muninn is designed for.
Muninn has higher alpha than a Zealot but Zealot can out dps a Muninn.
Muninn has better tracking at it's optimal Zealot has comparable or equal.
Muninn has two utility high slots.
I usually stick drone lik augs in them to put my drone rage out to about 85km which is handy for them incoming inty's.

Now.

I'm not sure if taking 1 high putting it to a mid would help the muninn.
I'm not sure if taking 2 high and putting them to low and mid would help.
It would be interesting to see though.

I'd miss those utility slots though :(


You say this in every Muninn thread and you are WRONG.

Muninn DOES NOT have better tracking. The setup on my Zealot has 30% better tracking, the same optimal as a Muninn when using Radios compared to Carb Lead, double the scan res and 30% better DPS.

Compared to this the Muninn has an extra 10km Falloff (whoopee ****ing doo) and double the alpha. Unfortunately, the alpha still isn't high enough to instapop cepters/eafs/af's and is therefore mostly redundant.

Untill you actually post a setup that can't be trounced by a Zealot no-one is going to believe a bloody word you say.

EDIT: And yes, moving a high to mid would go a very long way towards helping the ship. Doubling the clip size on Arty would also be a huge boost.

SKINK0429
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.11.29 18:45:00 - [11]
 

I like my Muninn how it isVery Happy

Poena Loveless
Minmatar
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.29 22:42:00 - [12]
 

The issues with the munin (and the eagle) stem from giving 'spec snipper platforms' utility slots in the highs and acting as if they give the ship anything. Seriously, it happens to a lot of range HACs.

Who puts anything useful in the Cerbs/Eagles utility slot?

a big /signed for fixing the craptastic tracking with artie. Even with a perfect kite situation and maxed gun support skills, i get misses and slight hits with arties.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.29 22:52:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Poena Loveless
The issues with the munin (and the eagle) stem from giving 'spec snipper platforms' utility slots in the highs and acting as if they give the ship anything. Seriously, it happens to a lot of range HACs.

Who puts anything useful in the Cerbs/Eagles utility slot?

a big /signed for fixing the craptastic tracking with artie. Even with a perfect kite situation and maxed gun support skills, i get misses and slight hits with arties.


If you call salvagers usefull then i do :P Well nothing else fits in those slots , those remaining high slots are completly stupid and needs to be changed.

ViperVenom
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.30 01:55:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: ViperVenom on 30/11/2008 02:03:22
[Rupture, 1600mm]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

I kno i just posted a 1600 R/T Rupture.. How does the Muninn fare in the 1600 route? Iv only Sniped with it and it kinda suxs.

Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists
Posted - 2008.11.30 03:06:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Ruciza on 30/11/2008 03:11:53
Originally by: Cristl
3 zealots do the damage of 5 muninns.



But not against ubiquitous armor omnitanks, for example. Or Minmatar ships. Resists are important.

The Muninn is no "sniper", whose sole role is to alpha frigates. That is stupid. It is a cruiser sized arty ship, and those arties can be trained on any target. And if you factor in those useless utility slots and drones, the Muninn does the same dps as the Zealot.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.11.30 03:42:00 - [16]
 

It wouldn't be bad if there was a high slot module that helped a sniper. I use drone augs too but even so I rarely use drones as if you have to warp goodbye drones until you can dock up again. Sometimes I use cloak + 1x drone aug, but I feel so lame with the cloak on.

-2 highs for mid/lows would be so much better.

Drek Grapper
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.30 04:17:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kuzya Morozov
What about fixing Minmatar? What about fixing EVE?!?!?


Very Happy

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.11.30 05:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: SKINK0429
I like my Muninn how it isVery Happy


The funny thing about this is, even if you LIKE the Munin, there's no reason to NOT want a boost as well. Right now, the Munin does it's job adequately, just as most minmatar ships do. Unfortunately, adequacy is overshadowed by excellence in most cases. Yes, minmatar ships can get kills. Yes, player skill does matter to an extent. But in many cases you're climbing a pretty steep hill.

I mean, when comparing the Zealot to the Munin, it's pretty much always a laughable result. What exactly DOES the Munin do better? It certainly can't deliver more steel on target than the Zealot (which is odd because the Zealot shoots various wavelengths of EM radiation. . . ) at any range. A sniper Munin is outdmaged by a sniper zealot. An A/C munin is bested by a Pulse zealot. It certainly doesn't tank better, and it really isn't any faster.

If flexability is the crux of the minmatar ethos, then the ships need to actually be fitted in such a way as to BE flexible. Those high slots don't do anything to aid the ship in it's most common role, why not move them elsewhere in order to aid the Munin in having a fitting that can actually best it's peers (the eagle and the zealot). A spare mid and a spare low means the shorter range can be offset by higher speed and damage (in the case of the eagle) or perhaps better tank (in the case of the zealot).

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2008.11.30 05:12:00 - [19]
 

I really want to like the Muninn, but it really isn't that great. I've almost blown up any number of interceptors and assault frigates with it, but they always seem to get away with about 10% structure. If it had one more turret slot (and the grid to fit a full rack of 720mm IIs) or one less utility slot (move it to the lows or the mids), it would be a great ship.

Cristl
Posted - 2008.11.30 09:12:00 - [20]
 

Actually, moving a high to a mid is probably better than to a low. I don't think both utility highs should be moved though.

Add a little arty love (just 5% damage, maybe a larger clipsize) and things would be more balanced.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.30 10:00:00 - [21]
 

Arties are fine muninn isnt, and only because it has to few mids and lows. 8 mids/lows versus the 10 for zealot thats why zealot is much better.

Ragenar
Minmatar
The Raging Jackalopes
Posted - 2008.11.30 12:33:00 - [22]
 

To be fair the munin gets a higher alpha strike, Over the zealot, but its never helped. I am fed up to hell fo the t2 frigs who get away in structure. However that said its always faired nicly on killmaisl and often scores very high damage wise.

Its not broken, it just slightly sub par

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.11.30 15:43:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Derek Sigres on 30/11/2008 15:48:21
Originally by: Ragenar
To be fair the munin gets a higher alpha strike, Over the zealot, but its never helped. I am fed up to hell fo the t2 frigs who get away in structure. However that said its always faired nicly on killmaisl and often scores very high damage wise.

Its not broken, it just slightly sub par


There really aren't any broken ships in the game these days. The munin's eccentricities mean it's the ship that tries to do everything and ends up doing many things poorly. A bit of focus would resolve the issue.

For example - the ship appears to be a shield tanker based on it's stats but the slot layout drives most people to tank armor. It needs to pick a side here, none of this wishy washy crap. Then it has an optimal range bonus, pretty much shoe horning it into the role of sniper yet with no modification whatsoever it can fire T2 ammo dramatically further than it can lock. Then it has two high slots that go unused if sniping, indicating that perhaps you should utalize it as an a/c ship - but that's a job that's done better by the speedy vagabond, which is fast enough to maintain range and gets the more useful falloff bonus (useful with regards to improving the range of the autocannon that is).

The way I see it, the Munin should just plain lose those two high slots and BOTH of them should be mid slots. If it's to be a sniper, then a 5, 5, 5 slot layout would meet that perfectly. 5 arties in the highs, mwd, a few tracking computers and sensor boosters and maybe a small plate and the ship suddenly becomes an honest to god GOOD ship. In accordance with these changes, the ship would obviously have to lose something - in this case the drone bay. Like the zealot and eagle the revamped munin would not have the benefit of offsetting it's weakness at range using drones.

The zealot would still have the best damage at middle ranges, but the munin would at least have the edge when it comes to hit points. Plus, since such a munin is using the flexible Tracking computer rather than tracking enhancers, it has the option of switching to non T2 ammo and inserting tracking scripts leanding the ability to track ships moving at speed at fairly close ranges.

It might not be the best solution in the world, but if the two ships were engaged in a slugging match the result would be incredibly even. In fact, with my suggestions at close range (i.e. AN MF or RF EMP range) the standard sniper zealot has less than 20k (no implants no rigs) ehp to RF EMP damage while the Munin sports more than 40k ehp. . .

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2008.11.30 16:01:00 - [24]
 

I like the suggestions in the last post.

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.11.30 18:27:00 - [25]
 

Yep. If Minmatar ships are supposed to be versatile, then 5+1/4/5 is much more versatile than uncomphehendable 5+2/3/5.

One utility slot should remain tho. It wont be a minmatar ship without one. Plus, small remote repairers, salvagers or offlined heatsinks come handy much more often than expected.

bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers
Posted - 2008.11.30 18:48:00 - [26]
 

Extra lows would be far preferable to mids tbh.

As far as a sniper setup goes Tracking Enhancers pwn Computers. A Tracking enhancer has the same optimal bonus as a range srcipter TC, and atracking bonus to boot.

6/3/6 at least gives it 3 Gyros and 3 Tracking Enhancers, basically the optimal sniper setup if EHP isn't any consideration, and an extra low gives it a better chance up close, meaning that it might be able to operate at the ultra-close AC range (i.e. within web range) that a Vagabond can't.


Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2008.11.30 19:17:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 30/11/2008 19:23:29
[Muninn, Better Rupture]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile

Projectile Burst Aerator I
Projectile Collision Accelerator I

Warrior II x5

I don't really see why people complain about the muninn. Can swap above to barrage and easily stay out of range of a deimos/arazu/insert other blaster ship here - this has a stronger tank and gank than a vaga, still goes over 1200m/s without overloading the MWD...Has a nice tank, hits hard. I don't really see the issue tbh. Against an ishtar, just kill the drones then kill the ishtar - no big deal.

EFT Warrior
Posted - 2008.11.30 19:25:00 - [28]
 

With that setup though, it is a nice ship but it's not that much better than a rupture (and far more expensive). I admit it is way ahead of the rupture against amarr ships, but it's still an expensive rupture.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2008.11.30 19:31:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: EFT Warrior
With that setup though, it is a nice ship but it's not that much better than a rupture (and far more expensive). I admit it is way ahead of the rupture against amarr ships, but it's still an expensive rupture.


You could say the same thing about an ishtar and a vexor or thorax and diemos. It's a better rupture - can soak up more damage than my brutix can and hits almost has hard, moves a lot faster, locks a lot faster...etc. I look at the ships I come across in 0.0 and this should beat the hell out of most of them. Can hit a rapier at the range a rapier can hit it back at, can out-tank a blaster arazu or close distance on an RSD one, etc.

What else do you want it to do?

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.11.30 19:42:00 - [30]
 

Muninn got a boost with QR. Its light missiles and light drones now murder any tackler that gets close. It is the only sniper hac with any sort of decent defense against getting tackled. Let's not forget that...just to put it out there.


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