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Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.12.10 14:56:00 - [271]
 

Is DNA doing the Tournament this year?

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.10 17:06:00 - [272]
 

Yeah you could sortof say that..

Our team consists of GH-SC / ex GH-SC / DNA / ex DNA / almost DNA / random buddies Razz
probly biggest part consists of people who recently left DNA

XFreedomX
Posted - 2008.12.10 17:26:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
no offense but

1. hahahahahaha
2. you're only using 96 and 90 points respectively
3. ishtars are about the least vulnerable ship to ecm and only way i can imagine command ships beating them would be with oversized afterburners and ishtars leaving their webs at home


1. You got me there
2. So upgrade the griffin to Kitsune to fill in the point value.
3. The best value for the points are Commandships in this turnament not HACs. With a claymore and gang link, I'd imagine you can get CC to move close to the speed of Istars, and at web range Istars will be shreded by CC's. Once sufficient Istars are lost, their dps will not be able to breach the tank of a command ship.

Clearly, the setup and the selection of which command ship matters but you heard it here, this is the turnament of the commandships (with kitsune support) Wink

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.10 17:54:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 10/12/2008 18:06:19

Well let's say you do field a claymore, then you only have the other 4-5 cs with decent dmg output, that means 9 ishtars outdamage you at all ranges, including point blank.

f.i. pretty normal ishtar setup has 75 km optimal and 470 dps with bouncer II

you'll get what 7-800 ? dps per heavy dmg setup command ship, and if as you imply they have active tanks then their buffer will be weak and they'll melt really fast (active tanks are not a good idea in a tourney like this unless your opponent can't hit you properly)

ishtars are likely to warp in at 50 km while cs at 0, at that range ishtars will have like 5x as much dmg output, also they'll be able to keep that range if they fit mwds (and to a lesser extent with afterburners)

if you skip the 6th cs for kitsunes/griffins then anyone you jam can simply assign its drones to an ishtar that isn't jammed, also its quite easy to fit 2x conjunctive eccm per ishtar giving them 57.5 sensor strength without overheating (75 if they do)
probably waste of medslots since they can just assign their drones tho..

ishtars have 5 medslots to play with, so they're likely to have good lock range, maybe damps, definitely mwd or ab, maybe web..
They can easily fit 1600mm plate and 3-4 resist mods so their buffer is pretty decent.

Anyways, long story short command ships don't really stand a chance and ecm is almost worthless against ishtars whether they fit eccm or not ;d

(note i'm not sure if oversized afterburners on the command ships would result in sentries missing them enough, like i said before maybe that'd give them a chance but i tend to doubt it)

XFreedomX
Posted - 2008.12.11 02:10:00 - [275]
 

I am not sure if it is just me under-estimating Ishtar's dps or you under-estimating the tanks on a command ship, but this much I do know.

1. You can not assign sentry drone.
2. Setnry drone can not hit Kitsune (who will pull agro from the drones) so Ishtars will not be able to focus fire.
3. Much more fun to watch a match 5 cc and frig then an all Ishtar gang dropping sentry and the run.

With RR baned for the turnament Command Ships are better then BS.
So I am looking forward to the different combinations people can come up with for the 5 CC + 5 frig combo.

EOS/Damnation combo with Kitsune.
Claymore/Vulture with AF/Ceptors.

Just name some obvious ones. I am sure there are combinations of CC and Faction BS that maybe interesting also. But a big thumbs down for anyone bringing the all hac gang to the fight.



CCP Claw

Posted - 2008.12.11 14:42:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: CCP Claw on 11/12/2008 14:42:45
Mindstar and I have been discussing a lot of your feedback, as well as doing our own testing as well.

Although we won't be making any drastic changes, the ruleset will not be finalised until signups open as I have said before, and until that point we will be deliberating on possible changes. To give you an idea and so you're informed as to whats going on, we're currently talking about:

-The issue of costing ships by class (eg - Recons are expensive mostly because of Rooks, other recons should be cheaper, same applies to HACs and the Ishtar)

-Drones in general, particularly sentry drones when put into this very specific ruleset

-Minor (yet obviously very important) points tweaks

Saibin Gias
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.12.11 14:53:00 - [277]
 

Edited by: Saibin Gias on 11/12/2008 14:53:17
If possible can these changes (if any) be finalized ASAP, we've already adjusted some training plans based on the ruleset posted. Any major changes (point values/drone rules) will most probably lead to further changes and less time to work with.

atij barker
Posted - 2008.12.11 16:26:00 - [278]
 

I've been fooling around with ideas for tournament loadouts and really think the original ruleset posted is a good one. I was interested in seeing different options for dealing with sentries and the like. Hopefully any changes you make doesn't reduce diversity and turn this tourney into a missile spam fest.

QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.12.11 16:39:00 - [279]
 

I don't mind late changes, as long as they are for the betterment of the tourney...I agree with with what Claw has said they are thinking about. Sentry drones in particular.

One thing I would like to add though is the cost of faction battleships.....should they not be the same cost as the other BS classes, since they have been of limited tourney use for a while anyway..they could do with a points buff to make them more viable.

Just a suggestion.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.12.11 16:44:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Mes Ren on 11/12/2008 16:45:56
Originally by: CCP Claw
Edited by: CCP Claw on 11/12/2008 14:42:45
Mindstar and I have been discussing a lot of your feedback, as well as doing our own testing as well.

Although we won't be making any drastic changes, the ruleset will not be finalised until signups open as I have said before, and until that point we will be deliberating on possible changes. To give you an idea and so you're informed as to whats going on, we're currently talking about:

-The issue of costing ships by class (eg - Recons are expensive mostly because of Rooks, other recons should be cheaper, same applies to HACs and the Ishtar)

-Drones in general, particularly sentry drones when put into this very specific ruleset

-Minor (yet obviously very important) points tweaks


Personally I think it is a mistake to make changes based on what is perceived to be "The Tactic" of the tournament. History has shown what people believed to be "The Tactic" in the past, was not what ended up being used in the tournament. In fact, from the beginning to the end of a given tournament, tactics changed dramatically. We don't yet know what will be fielded in the tournament.

I will admit that Ishtars are a very strong ship for the point cost. It has the ability to hit from range anywhere in the arena, it can field very good dps, it is naturally resistant to ECM and damps when coupled with the ability "assign" the bulk of it's dps to someone who isn't effected. It can field a decent tank while retaining additional mid slots for utility. A whole gang of them is very strong, but by no means un-beatable. In all honesty, it is the use of sentries (more importantly, the use of sentries with backups) is what has most people concerned. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if the cost of Ishtars was raised, but I'd say be VERY careful about making too many changes based simply on what you perceive will be the "winning combination".


ddemec
SoT
Posted - 2008.12.11 17:36:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: ddemec on 11/12/2008 17:36:37
also
why tech1 and tech2 BS are equal? marauders have more strong tank, more slots, etc. That make them more attractive then their tech1 analogs.
For example there is no point now to take ravens for middle range setups if u can take golems.
Im a bit confused with this. What do u thin bout it? any proofs of this point equality?

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.12.11 17:53:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: ddemec
Edited by: ddemec on 11/12/2008 17:36:37
also
why tech1 and tech2 BS are equal? marauders have more strong tank, more slots, etc. That make them more attractive then their tech1 analogs.
For example there is no point now to take ravens for middle range setups if u can take golems.
Im a bit confused with this. What do u thin bout it? any proofs of this point equality?


If you asked me, it has to do with the point structure, and would probably be better served by changing things to 1000 pts, and adjusting accordingly. Right now, if they lowered bs's any (even teir 1), it would make them too powerful, but if they raised them any, it would make them not worth the points. If they changed things to 1000 pts, tier 1 bs could be 185, tier 2 - 190, tier 3 - 195, t2 - 200. Basically they would have more room to fine tune various different ships. It would also create new headaches for the event staff in attempting to figure out total build cost.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2008.12.11 18:00:00 - [283]
 

The math would be too much for Goonfleet.

Sorry but can't resist the shot Embarassed

Iraf Thaiberd
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.11 18:21:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
The math would be too much for Goonfleet.

Sorry but can't resist the shot Embarassed


Just for the record, we're planning on fielding 11 Ishtars

Trevedian
Amarr
Shaolin Monks
Posted - 2008.12.12 01:30:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: QwaarJet
I don't mind late changes, as long as they are for the betterment of the tourney...I agree with with what Claw has said they are thinking about. Sentry drones in particular.

One thing I would like to add though is the cost of faction battleships.....should they not be the same cost as the other BS classes, since they have been of limited tourney use for a while anyway..they could do with a points buff to make them more viable.

Just a suggestion.


I agree with QwaarJet... Faction Battleships exploding is fun to watch, making them a more enticing option would benefit the tourney more than it would hurt it... (Here come the omg I'm too poor whines)

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.12 14:52:00 - [286]
 

huh, is it true you can't assign sentries ? i tried testing it but i couldn't seem to get it to work with any drones ;d (maybe cos i was in lowsec?) it did give me the option tho..

also kinda agree with Trevedian, maybe reduce faction BS to 20 points ? don't think they're likely to be fielded at all as it stands, altho maybe that's just the hac/bc being overpowered thing

Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:25:00 - [287]
 

I've never been able to get assigning drones to work either, and no one is going to use any battleships unless they are dropped to like 17 points.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.12 17:46:00 - [288]
 

assigning non-sentries to other gangmembers makes the drones chase them around and stuff so you can use it to decloak people, but they don't seem to attack stuff that ship engages like they should, nor attack ships that agress,
so setting them to guard/assist basically just makes them useless for anything but decloaking stuff ?

bugged ? Neutral

mentalmonkey
Posted - 2008.12.12 18:48:00 - [289]
 

I personally think the Ishtar blob tactics would be a bit overpowered, with other drones smart bombs are a much more viable counter - I'm not saying there are no counters to the Ishtar blob team, but they are pretty tough to work and are very situational meaning a small team could catch a lucky break and a big contended could get knocked out in the heats. I can't think of that many situations where you would take a lachesis / rapier when you could have a rook / falcon

In short - glad CCP are looking into these potential issues, hope they do so fairly swiftly, a week before the tourney starts is no time to make such big changes to tactics.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2008.12.12 19:15:00 - [290]
 

They said the rules will be finalized by sign ups which will give you almost a month before the first match.

From a audience point of view, 9 or 10 of the same ship has been done to death and I hope less people bring those. Shows a lack of imagination. Hows 9 Deimos and different then 10 Thorax other then more powerful. Nor 9 Ishtar much different then 10 Vexor.

I would like to suggest CCP gives different value for kills vs escapes in the future, that would add value to ships with tackling abilities.

methodmo
Free Lapland
Posted - 2008.12.13 02:44:00 - [291]
 

very good idea to ban the remote reps Very Happy

we will be there to see if we can get in the last 8 again...


Gargamell Smurf
Posted - 2008.12.16 07:33:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
assigning non-sentries to other gangmembers makes the drones chase them around and stuff so you can use it to decloak people, but they don't seem to attack stuff that ship engages like they should, nor attack ships that agress,
so setting them to guard/assist basically just makes them useless for anything but decloaking stuff ?

bugged ? Neutral


I have no trouble assigning drones and having them attack and act aggressively as they should. It is quite effective as long as you assign them to someone who is within your range of drone control. They always work for me whether assigned to "assist" or "guard".


Gargamell Smurf
Posted - 2008.12.16 07:41:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: mentalmonkey
I personally think the Ishtar blob tactics would be a bit overpowered, with other drones smart bombs are a much more viable counter - I'm not saying there are no counters to the Ishtar blob team, but they are pretty tough to work and are very situational meaning a small team could catch a lucky break and a big contended could get knocked out in the heats. ...


Sentry drones are easy to kill. They don't move. They may be overpowered, BUT, unless you can't get close enough to shoot them, they are easy to eliminate. They melt instantly under heavy fire. Actually, they have such poor tracking, they are almost useless at close range against anything that is not stationary (except for BS).

Ambein Flambein
352 Industries
Posted - 2008.12.16 08:15:00 - [294]
 

any word on what the prizes are?

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.16 10:39:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Gargamell Smurf
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
assigning non-sentries to other gangmembers makes the drones chase them around and stuff so you can use it to decloak people, but they don't seem to attack stuff that ship engages like they should, nor attack ships that agress,
so setting them to guard/assist basically just makes them useless for anything but decloaking stuff ?

bugged ? Neutral


I have no trouble assigning drones and having them attack and act aggressively as they should. It is quite effective as long as you assign them to someone who is within your range of drone control. They always work for me whether assigned to "assist" or "guard".




Yeah I think problem was I was trying to use drones to tell them what to attack, apparently it has to be a module, altho that doesn't really explain why guard didn't work ;d

Chronos VIII
Amarr
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.12.16 10:55:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Gargamell Smurf
Originally by: mentalmonkey
I personally think the Ishtar blob tactics would be a bit overpowered, with other drones smart bombs are a much more viable counter - I'm not saying there are no counters to the Ishtar blob team, but they are pretty tough to work and are very situational meaning a small team could catch a lucky break and a big contended could get knocked out in the heats. ...


Sentry drones are easy to kill. They don't move. They may be overpowered, BUT, unless you can't get close enough to shoot them, they are easy to eliminate. They melt instantly under heavy fire. Actually, they have such poor tracking, they are almost useless at close range against anything that is not stationary (except for BS).


/sarcasm on
Yes. Sentry Drones suck.
/sarcasm off

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2008.12.17 18:53:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: McFly on 17/12/2008 19:00:19
Tyrrax... I've played with the drone mechanic a ton over the last year, and this is my understanding of it.

When u assign a drone to a gang mate to assist, it approaches them first. Once it is in it's normal idle orbit range the next time that gangmate activates an aggresive module the drones will attack that target.

If you assign a drone to guard, it will immeadiately attack an aggressor on the gangmate u assigned it to. It follows standard drone logic for selecting this target (if there is a such a thing)

A quick note, to assign drones, the friendly u give them to must be in the parent pilot's drone control range, and the target must also be in the parent pilot's drone control range. So if say u have ceptor pilot (A) and an ishtar pilot (B) Enemy is a crow (C). B assigns a flight of Warrior II's to A, A chases C, the warriors follow, and even engage (as long as activated before C clears B drone control range. Now even tho the drones are acting like they are attacking C, if C is outside of B's drone control range, they will be doing 0.0 damage. regardless of where A is in relation.

So for it to work in the tournament the ishtar pilots would need to assign drones to another pilot and that pilot would need to fly into the pile of sentries and activate and aggresive module on an enemy as he flew through the pile. So if all the ishtars dropped their sentries together lets say in one big blob of sentries. An ishtar would need to go through and redirect them if they were assigned to him. So it's possible, but would need a lot of coordination between the ishtar pilots to keep all the drones firing on the same target. Convenience would breed a weakness if all the Sentries were stacked together, so I have a feeling that ECM will still hold a decent foothold against the 9 Ishtar Team, tho one missed jam and a couple ECM Boats go down because of it.

--McFly--

Saba Quiestador
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.17 22:34:00 - [298]
 

I would like to see a team penalized for having multiple of the same ship type. Say a 20% penalty, CUMULATIVE, rounded up, for each additional ship of the same type.

So the first Ishtar a team uses is 11 points, no penalty. But if the team adds a second one, that second one costs 14 (13.2) points. If they added a third, it would be 16 (15.84), fourth one is 20 (19.008), etc.

This would make an all-Ishtar (or all-Claymore, or all-Rook, all-Drake, whatever) team impractical, and would enforce some level of diversity in the teams.

Then you don't have to worry about making Ishtars cost more than Zealots, or something like that. This does that automatically. Also, because the penalty compounds, the penalties are not *too* harsh if you stay within reason. Teams could still use 2 (or maybe even 3) of the same ship without completely killing themselves - they just can't do 9 of the same ship.

Now, this doesn't prevent someone from using sentries as a tactic - it just penalizes people from fielding a homogeneous (and boring) team of limited ship types. You could still mix Ishtars, Domis, and Navy Vexors in a sentry-centered fleet, and maybe throw in a Mega to pop enemy sentries along with deploying its own un-bonused sentry damage. But that fight be a heck of a lot more interesting than 9 Ishtars with identical fits.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.12.17 23:36:00 - [299]
 

sounds cool

Willy Nerfalot
Posted - 2008.12.18 03:44:00 - [300]
 

Is it possible that so much is being made of the ishtar setup simply because its the only gallente ship class (drone boats) not nerfed into uselessness?

If im wrong, i look forward to the setups with arazus (or any gallente ewar) and the 400% tracking nerfed blaster boats.

Like hell, lol.




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