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ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.24 22:48:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: ouroboros trading on 24/11/2008 22:48:01
could tidal power destabilise the moons orbit and make it crash into the earth?

if you rotate a tangent about a point, could you make it so that the one end moves faster than light?

and lastly, if you had a rod a few million miles long and moved the one end, would the other end move as well, thus making infomation travel faster than light?

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.11.24 22:55:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: ouroboros trading
Edited by: ouroboros trading on 24/11/2008 22:48:01
could tidal power destabilise the moons orbit and make it crash into the earth?

if you rotate a tangent about a point, could you make it so that the one end moves faster than light?

and lastly, if you had a rod a few million miles long and moved the one end, would the other end move as well, thus making infomation travel faster than light?


1. No.

2. Only if the tangent wasn't made of anything - if it was, it would flex in such a way that no point could be travelling faster than light.

3. No. See above.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:12:00 - [3]
 

ah i was under the impression that tidal energy somehow stole energy from the moon's gravity field.

perhaps...

and why? no single point would be moving faster than light or anything so where would the 'flex' come from, that stops a tangent from moving faster than light?


Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:19:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 24/11/2008 23:21:33
Originally by: ouroboros trading
ah i was under the impression that tidal energy somehow stole energy from the moon's gravity field.


All tidal power does is convert a tiny portion of that energy transfer into useful work. That has no effect on the Moon.

Originally by: ouroboros trading
and why? no single point would be moving faster than light or anything so where would the 'flex' come from, that stops a tangent from moving faster than light?

Elasticity of all real materials. At a point on the bar where its speed is c, you are going to have a problem.

Eclip
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd.
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:25:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Eclip on 24/11/2008 23:32:18
Originally by: ouroboros trading
ah i was under the impression that tidal energy somehow stole energy from the moon's gravity field.

perhaps...

and why? no single point would be moving faster than light or anything so where would the 'flex' come from, that stops a tangent from moving faster than light?




To shed some light, if you had a tangent its bascially an object with an arm hanging out at a right angle from it. ie a circle with an arm touching one side. the faster you go you gain whats called relativistic mass so the closer you get tot he speed of light the higher ur mass becomes. the more mass that arm has the more its going to be accelerated toward the centre of rotation from centripital acceleration. So each point along the tangent will be gaining mass with the furthurest point away form the point of intersection having the highest rotational speed and thus has the largest mass and pulled toward the centre the hardest. So what we will get is the tangent arm collasping onto the spinning ring or circle or whatever.

The moon affects the earth and the earth deforms slightly giving rise to tidal movements. The moon is deformed slightly as well but pretty undectectable since it doesnt have much flex due to its size being much smaller and being thus less compressable due to its core etc not having the same composition as eart.

The rod a few million km long. which way are you thinking of moving it? if longditudally as in length ways then the speed at which you could move it would be tiny compared to the speed at which the signal travels. Say you can push it at 0.5ms-1 foward the other end if it has no elasticity whatsoever and is perfectally rigid in an ideal system blah blah then the other end is only gona move 0.5m-1 and the information is moving at the speed of light or very close to it. (0.5/3x10^8)*100=0.00016% of the total speed. so its negligable. The signal takes 3.3333ms to get from one end to the other in an ideal system but in reality its influenced by attenuation loss energy adsorbtion, kinks etc so it would be hard to detect a change in signal arrival time. But we all know wire has flex and the longer you make things the more they flex and contort under pressure. so in the real world after maybe only a km or two it wouldn't move at the end any more if you only moved it just a little.

EDIT:Spelling

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:26:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Originally by: ouroboros trading
ah i was under the impression that tidal energy somehow stole energy from the moon's gravity field.


All tidal power does is convert a tiny portion of that energy transfer into useful work. That has no effect on the Moon.

Originally by: ouroboros trading
and why? no single point would be moving faster than light or anything so where would the 'flex' come from, that stops a tangent from moving faster than light?

Elasticity of all real materials.



ah i was thinking that stopping water flowing about could somehow snag the moon ever so slightly. but now i am thinking that the system sounds a lot like perpetual motion if one can extract energy from it.

would a line of carbon nanotubes have any elasticity? perhaps so but enough to negate the FTL transfer of infomation?

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:29:00 - [7]
 

heh i'd never even heard of centripetal force, thanks :)

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: ouroboros trading
if you rotate a tangent about a point, could you make it so that the one end moves faster than light?

So, basically the Superluminal scissors trick?

The scissors blades would just flex as the electromagnetic force binding the atoms of the blades together propagates up the blades at approximately the speed of light. So if your scissors are 1 light year long it would take a year for them to close at the far end.

Or are you perhaps eluding to the Sagnac effect? Anyway lot's more horrible mind bending stuff here

Originally by: ouroboros trading
and lastly, if you had a rod a few million miles long and moved the one end, would the other end move as well, thus making infomation travel faster than light?
So you've got an infinitely strong, ridged poll that's how big? Very Happy

I think you would experience lag and the logs would show nothing.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: ouroboros trading on 24/11/2008 23:35:25
Originally by: Dr Slaughter
Originally by: ouroboros trading
if you rotate a tangent about a point, could you make it so that the one end moves faster than light?

So, basically the Superluminal scissors trick?

The scissors blades would just flex as the electromagnetic force binding the atoms of the blades together propagates up the blades at approximately the speed of light. So if your scissors are 1 light year long it would take a year for them to close at the far end.

Or are you perhaps eluding to the Sagnac effect? Anyway lot's more horrible mind bending stuff here

Originally by: ouroboros trading
and lastly, if you had a rod a few million miles long and moved the one end, would the other end move as well, thus making infomation travel faster than light?
So you've got an infinitely strong, ridged poll that's how big? Very Happy

I think you would experience lag and the logs would show nothing.


ah scissor blades closing is a much clearer example of what i'm thinking about :)

and that link....O_OExclamation

hurrah for the oope forum ^____^

Eclip
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd.
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dr Slaughter
Originally by: ouroboros trading
if you rotate a tangent about a point, could you make it so that the one end moves faster than light?

So, basically the Superluminal scissors trick?

The scissors blades would just flex as the electromagnetic force binding the atoms of the blades together propagates up the blades at approximately the speed of light. So if your scissors are 1 light year long it would take a year for them to close at the far end.

Or are you perhaps eluding to the Sagnac effect? Anyway lot's more horrible mind bending stuff here

Originally by: ouroboros trading
and lastly, if you had a rod a few million miles long and moved the one end, would the other end move as well, thus making infomation travel faster than light?
So you've got an infinitely strong, ridged poll that's how big? Very Happy

I think you would experience lag and the logs would show nothing.


Its more the superluminal scissors though experiment then the sagnac effect since the sagnac effect is only defined for photons. Ive never heard of the superlumial thought experiment untill now. The problem with alot of the physics forumns is its ppl tinking up really wacky stuff in their baths from a show they have seen and with many different ideas flowing aroun its often hard to keep track of the logical arguments. But some of them provide hours of entertainment.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2008.11.24 23:58:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: ouroboros trading
ah i was thinking that stopping water flowing about could somehow snag the moon ever so slightly. but now i am thinking that the system sounds a lot like perpetual motion if one can extract energy from it.


The energy is not free, the Earth's rotation is slowing as it transfers energy to the Moon, which recedes (higher orbit -> higher potential energy, and it more than compensates for the loss in kinetic energy as the Moon's velocity slows). This transfer is inefficient, most gets lost in tidal friction. All we do is convert a portion of it into useful work. As far as celestial mechanics are concerned, it was still lost as heat.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.25 00:03:00 - [12]
 

ah yeah, the water i'm focusing on is a tiny aspect of the whole gravitational interaction going on what with tidal forces on the mantle/crusts whatever of the earth and moon.


oh well i can go to sleep now without fearing the moon will drop out of the sky :)


Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.11.25 00:04:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Eclip
The problem with alot of the physics forumns is its ppl tinking up really wacky stuff in their baths from a show they have seen and with many different ideas flowing aroun its often hard to keep track of the logical arguments. But some of them provide hours of entertainment.
TBH that forum is full of good stuff if you've got enough time to dig it out and re-construct summaries.

This got me thinking about Cherenkov Radiation when light exceeds the speed it 'should be doing' (but still < c) when traveling through another medium... and that brought me to 'Superluminal localized structures of electromagnetic radiation'. The bit that's interesting in the abstract is 'travelng [b]superluminally in a nonlinear medium'. Surely 'superluminally' = '> c'? WTF? Now after digging (< PDF) around and reading my head is full of horrible math that I don't understand so I'm going to bed. Neutral

Hopefully tomorrow morning someone will have translated that PDF into laymans English!

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2008.11.25 00:05:00 - [14]
 

#3 is actually the most interesting question since it's more than of just theoretical nature.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.11.25 00:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tzar'rim
#3 is actually the most interesting question since it's more than of just theoretical nature.


Interesting question, but a boring answer: no. The stick would compress at one end, and the compression wave would travel along the pole at under the speed of light.

TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.11.25 01:24:00 - [16]
 

Well acording to baldrik(tony (timeteam)whatshisname) on some documentry program on this evening the moon formed about 10 times closer than it currently is (15,000~ miles)or so, and had such an effect on the plantetary oceans which were deeper than today, that they were having a tidal effect back on the moon and caused a gradual slingshot effect on the moon and caused it a gradual boost from a stable orbit of outbound of about 2cm a year.
The earth spun at such a rate that a day was less than 6 hours long. the effect of the moon and oceans caused enough drag to slow the planettary spin down.

(yeah space 1999 style(almost)).

we should lose the moon in a couple of billion years...
(OMG!!! were all gonna die!....)

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.25 01:43:00 - [17]
 

Isnt the idea of FTL communications that twinned particles will react exactly the same as the other twin?
So if you use morse code or something on one, the other will do the same...?
Or is this star trek im thinking of Rolling Eyes

Atomos Darksun
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.11.25 02:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
Isnt the idea of FTL communications that twinned particles will react exactly the same as the other twin?
So if you use morse code or something on one, the other will do the same...?
Or is this star trek im thinking of Rolling Eyes
Nope, that's proven subatomic physics as of a few months ago.

Saju Somtaaw
Kagan-Kincaid Enterprises
Posted - 2008.11.25 04:07:00 - [19]
 

Now we just need to create an Anisible...

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2008.11.25 04:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Atomos Darksun
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Isnt the idea of FTL communications that twinned particles will react exactly the same as the other twin?
So if you use morse code or something on one, the other will do the same...?
Or is this star trek im thinking of Rolling Eyes
Nope, that's proven subatomic physics as of a few months ago.

aha I new it! :D

Atama Cardel
Perkone
Posted - 2008.11.25 05:00:00 - [21]
 

While we're on the topic of weird physics questions, I have one that's been irking me for a little while. Keep in mind that I don't have a huge background in physics please. Smile

If it can be said that if you were to accelerate up to the speed of light you would have infinite mass, then does that mean that if you were to somehow able to completely stop all motion, and you had a velocity of zero (if there was a way to be able to measure that of course), then would that mean you would have no mass?

Brilf
Posted - 2008.11.25 07:04:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Atama Cardel
While we're on the topic of weird physics questions, I have one that's been irking me for a little while. Keep in mind that I don't have a huge background in physics please. Smile

If it can be said that if you were to accelerate up to the speed of light you would have infinite mass, then does that mean that if you were to somehow able to completely stop all motion, and you had a velocity of zero (if there was a way to be able to measure that of course), then would that mean you would have no mass?


I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that question.

e=mc^2 So if you assume absolute zero implies zero energy then there must be zero mass as well right?

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.11.25 07:51:00 - [23]
 

Since I've just finished reading Alastair Reynold's "Galactic North" I have a question, and this seems the right place to ask.

If you don't know a lot about Calculus, you can stop reading.

* You've got a ship traveling with a constant acceleration of 1g for 7500 years. How much time will the crew experience during the trip?

Tzar'rim
Posted - 2008.11.25 08:09:00 - [24]
 

Bogus question Laughing

Light speed would be attainted quite fast, therefore the question is moot.Also, anyone replying would be using theory, not facts.

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.11.25 09:00:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 25/11/2008 09:34:00
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Bogus question Laughing

Light speed would be attainted quite fast, therefore the question is moot.Also, anyone replying would be using theory, not facts.

In that case... in theory would this be governed by quantum theory and especially zero-point energy being what would stop you ever achieving zero mass?

Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.11.25 09:09:00 - [26]
 

Hmm.

When I'm in the bath the only thing I can think of, is that I'm wallowing in my own filth.

Showers ftw.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.11.25 10:20:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: F'nog
Since I've just finished reading Alastair Reynold's "Galactic North" I have a question, and this seems the right place to ask.

If you don't know a lot about Calculus, you can stop reading.

* You've got a ship traveling with a constant acceleration of 1g for 7500 years. How much time will the crew experience during the trip?


7500 years. An outside observer would see it taking a good deal longer.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.25 10:25:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Hmm.

When I'm in the bath the only thing I can think of, is that I'm wallowing in my own filth.

Showers ftw.



yes bum water (water that comes into contact with ones sphincter or water that comes into contact with said water, i.e. the entire bath) is a potential risk of bathing, however i am kinda clean and maintain very strict toilet hygene, to minimise the risks posed by bummy water :)

I think michael jackson once wrote a song about it...beat it? bidet?


ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.11.25 14:30:00 - [29]
 

Hey ouroboros, you have an avatar. Congrats.

Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.11.25 22:45:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 25/11/2008 22:46:53
That time of the night again... but now I have some new reading to do. Back after Easter 09. Very Happy

and, get back onto the first page dam it...


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