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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.11.30 23:44:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Serenity Steele on 30/11/2008 23:46:33
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
Edited by: Pax Ratlin on 30/11/2008 23:31:34
Thanks because i link like a noob, sadly
An Interview with an Ex-Goldfarm Operator

Nice article.
Regardless of the working conditions of RMT+macro+farmers, the reality is that it's bad for EVE. At the end of the day, the only reason they do it, is because it's a RL profitable exercise.

So got any suggestions for making it not profitable in RL? I would have thought introducing PLEX would help make it a less interesting exercise. Or do PLEX just make it easier to **** legitimately - by selling PLEX in-game for RL currency?

Actually for a stream of conciousness, maybe that's why they can't leave a station - because if they did, they could be jettisoned and collected, with no log of the event. Maybe CCP are watching afterall :)

Anarich
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.12.01 06:16:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 21:00:44
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 20:55:49
Originally by: Anarich

"exact ammount of time in a belt"-any dedicated miner likely falls into this category.


No, dedicated miners do NOT do the exact same things, over and over, w/out fail and you know it.

People have TIMED these guys... down to the SECOND... and your going to make an excuse for it?

Folks, this is the shotgun defence measure, you throw tons of S**T around and see if anything sticks...

Excuse me Mr. Macro-Mining Lawyer Alt - you fail.

AKTwisted Evil



So now the witch hunt turns to me. Well, I'm not an alternate. I've only played about a month and this is the first mmo where macros were considered such a big problem. I can see people in places maybe playing this game in order to sell for real money. I've seen the spam. I really just don't understand the whole macro thing and how timing can prove someone is a macro. I have a scientific background and I just don't take things on faith, without hard proof. And the methods outlined to spot a macro seem too general and contradictory. I don't really know what it is about this game, but people are usually really mean right off the bat. I thought this was a real cool game when I looked at it, but I'm started to regret having subscribed to this game. Do nice people even play this game? Or is everyone just out to grief everyone else?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.12.01 07:52:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Anarich
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 21:00:44
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 20:55:49
Originally by: Anarich

"exact ammount of time in a belt"-any dedicated miner likely falls into this category.


No, dedicated miners do NOT do the exact same things, over and over, w/out fail and you know it.

People have TIMED these guys... down to the SECOND... and your going to make an excuse for it?

Folks, this is the shotgun defence measure, you throw tons of S**T around and see if anything sticks...

Excuse me Mr. Macro-Mining Lawyer Alt - you fail.

AKTwisted Evil



So now the witch hunt turns to me. Well, I'm not an alternate. I've only played about a month and this is the first mmo where macros were considered such a big problem. I can see people in places maybe playing this game in order to sell for real money. I've seen the spam. I really just don't understand the whole macro thing and how timing can prove someone is a macro. I have a scientific background and I just don't take things on faith, without hard proof. And the methods outlined to spot a macro seem too general and contradictory. I don't really know what it is about this game, but people are usually really mean right off the bat. I thought this was a real cool game when I looked at it, but I'm started to regret having subscribed to this game. Do nice people even play this game? Or is everyone just out to grief everyone else?




The griefing elements of the players base have a large visibility in forum, but if you avoid some system, way less in game.

People like the OP want to gank players in high sec, but to feel right about it play the "morally superior" card. for him if you keep a precise schedule you are a macro,but it you don't keep a precise schedule you are a macro too. If you always warp to the same spot you are a macro, but if you warp to different belts you are a macro too, and so on.

Practically any behavior you keep, if you mine you are a macro. so he feel good killing miners as they are macros.

Quote:
Do nice people even play this game?


With 30K on line as an average, you get a fair number of players that have the need to feel big killing someone and pick new players as an easy target. They congregate in the starting system and other overcrowded high sec system where they can find new players to harass.

Move away from those systems (and maybe away from the Caldari regions) and you will meet them very rarely.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.12.01 18:26:00 - [34]
 

Not talking in local or answering convos doesn't make someone a macro - maybe they just don't want to talk to you? Sitting and mining for hours on end doesn't make someone a macro - maybe they just have alot of free time? The most reliable way of spotting a macro is the 'kill them all and let God sort them out' method - suicide gank the suspect, and see how they react. If they sit there as though nothing has happened, or carry on repeating the movement patterns in their pod that they were making whilst in their ship, you've probably found a macro. If they call you names in local and undock in a blasterthron looking for you, it probably wasn't.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.12.02 05:46:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 02/12/2008 05:46:49
Originally by: Anarich
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 21:00:44
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/11/2008 20:55:49
Originally by: Anarich

"exact ammount of time in a belt"-any dedicated miner likely falls into this category.


No, dedicated miners do NOT do the exact same things, over and over, w/out fail and you know it.

People have TIMED these guys... down to the SECOND... and your going to make an excuse for it?

Folks, this is the shotgun defence measure, you throw tons of S**T around and see if anything sticks...

Excuse me Mr. Macro-Mining Lawyer Alt - you fail.

AKTwisted Evil



So now the witch hunt turns to me. Well, I'm not an alternate. I've only played about a month and this is the first mmo where macros were considered such a big problem. I can see people in places maybe playing this game in order to sell for real money. I've seen the spam. I really just don't understand the whole macro thing and how timing can prove someone is a macro. I have a scientific background and I just don't take things on faith, without hard proof. And the methods outlined to spot a macro seem too general and contradictory. I don't really know what it is about this game, but people are usually really mean right off the bat. I thought this was a real cool game when I looked at it, but I'm started to regret having subscribed to this game. Do nice people even play this game? Or is everyone just out to grief everyone else?



If you have a scientific background - then conduct an experiment. REALLY SIMPLE - for one hour - undock in a mining ship, warp to an asteroid field, mine your hold full, dock, empty your hold and repeat. Record your times at each step - and see how much variance is in it.

I think your going to find you have anywhere from 3% possibly up to 10% variance... (my own experiences, depended on how motivated I was that day to mine). If you find someone with less than 3% variances over time - you have probably found a macro miner... Does that seem a bit more restrained ;)

And no - I don't believe the OP just wants more people to shoot... He does, however, sound like a miner that wants the minerals to be priced appropriately...

AKTwisted Evil

AeonOfTime
Minmatar
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:11:00 - [36]
 

Being a miner myself I have encountered macro miners, and had to move to new mining systems regularly as they were overrun. Now I mine far off the usual shipping lanes, and am quite happy not to see any of them anymore.

If you had asked me back then I would have agreed on doing something against them directly. Now I'm not so sure anymore. As always there are different points of view - the miner view which would like minerals to be as highly priced as possible, and the manufacturer view who would love to buy his minerals as cheap as possible.

Macrominers contribute a good deal to the material supply, and while that lowers the overall mineral prices, it is also great for EVE's manufacturing community.

Imagine removing all Macrominers tomorrow - module and ship prices would increase, miners would get rich and mission runners would have to revert back to mining as missions would not pay for their needs anymore. PvP players would feel the losses of their ships a lot more too. In the end, that sounds like less fun.

I think the decision rests on how much Macrominers really impact EVE's economy. How many are there really? Do they do as much damage as we all think? Without a clear answer to those questions, we can speculate all year long.

mad27k
Posted - 2008.12.02 11:21:00 - [37]
 

half the npcers in 0.0 are macroers....

AeonOfTime
Minmatar
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.12.02 12:01:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: mad27k
half the npcers in 0.0 are macroers....


That's an opinion, not a fact.

Pazzuzzu
Posted - 2009.01.24 10:22:00 - [39]
 

I slowly have the feeling CCP is tolerating them because it brings them money.....

Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.01.24 11:50:00 - [40]
 

i dont support this. mainly because i dont like theese "how to spot a macro miner" instructions. if i decide to orbit ice asteroids all day, rejecting convo's and ignoring local, then i should be able to do that and not owe anyone an explanation for it.

also i dont get your inital problem. you are angry because you dont get individual personal replys from the gm's you send your petitions to ? do you think it would help the banning of macro miners if a gm had to sit down 5 minutes to create a personal reply to each petition ?

wether you got a personal reply or not, ccp will bann the offending party if they have suitable evidence of them using macros. If they cant find suitable evidence, than you shouldn't arrogate that you could. it may not have come to your mind yet, but it is entirely possible, that someone you petitioned was not banned for the reason that they were simple not guilty and that your assumptions on them were wrong.

Pazzuzzu
Posted - 2009.01.25 16:22:00 - [41]
 

There are DEFINITE ways to verify 100% ! That people are using macros to mine !
Sadly CCP doesnt care about that....

acwdc78
Posted - 2009.01.25 23:47:00 - [42]
 

what i think of macro miners:
FREE MARKET
make macro spots so they go there and dont bother anyone
let them make their living having fun
plus, if u havent think about it, some chinese children or from other countries can have a very safe work environment farming gold instead of going to work at factories where they can get killed, abused or maimed.
I SUPPORT THE MACRO MINERS

LET THE MACRO MINERS WORK!!

Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.01.29 22:46:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Pazzuzzu
There are DEFINITE ways to verify 100% ! That people are using macros to mine !


there is exactly 1 definite way to verify 100% that someone uses a macro, and that is: standing infront of his computer.

otherwise there is no way to verify 100% that someone uses a macro. you might find symptoms that indicate someone might
be using a macro, and you might find serveral symptoms together, but it could still be a human interaction.


Pazzuzzu
Posted - 2009.01.30 00:15:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Pazzuzzu
There are DEFINITE ways to verify 100% ! That people are using macros to mine !


there is exactly 1 definite way to verify 100% that someone uses a macro, and that is: standing infront of his computer.

otherwise there is no way to verify 100% that someone uses a macro. you might find symptoms that indicate someone might
be using a macro, and you might find serveral symptoms together, but it could still be a human interaction.



Ok.
A barge with a characters-name like asdfsg: mines -warps to station-warps back - rinse repeat - 23/7.
Verified by DIFFERENT people.
100% MM ? Gut says yes but lets say no proof - So no

4 barges plus 1 hauler plus a Giant secure:
Hard work for a human - Very small time window not to break the "chain" - NOT possible to do half afk.Hell the guy would need an replacement if he went for a bio-break.Ok: Hauler bumped away from gsc - "chain" breaks because gcs + cargos of the barges are full - Everything grinds to a standstill...for between 30 min and 2 hours (I was on sickleave,had nothing better to do and wanted to 100% verify that this specific group are macros) Monitored/Bumped/Disrupted the macro for 3 days..... Macrominer? YES,100%

If that is not proff enough then lets forget this discussion and anything about Macrominers because then they DONT ****ING EXIST

Erika Bronz
Gallente
The Wyld Hunt
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.01.30 10:28:00 - [45]
 

My guess is that if CCP actually accept macro mining, it would be coz there is too few miners to support all the ships blowing up in this game. With all the wars going on, FW included, there must be a massive demand for ships. And then you have the modules and rigs in addition ofc. Macrominers will never be able to take away the living from a human miner anyway. There's a fixed lowest price for ore it will never drop below. This is set by insurance, and maybe other mechanics too. Maybe the solution would be to make mining more an active effort for those who want more income from it. Say if you need to probe for more valuable ore. Wormholes maybe. There will allways be a ISK vs risk factor too, and the only risk mining in high-sec is a suicide runner.

Sola Sun
X0 OPS
Posted - 2009.01.30 12:33:00 - [46]
 

If you suspect AFK activities, why do not implement some kind of CAPTCHA for clients, who recently created assets in game, like ore, NPC loot or bounty ISK ?

Make some sort of threshold value here, so captcha wont interact with PvP pilots killing small NPC gate spawn.

If, as well, LOCAL chat will be changed to delayed mode (at least, half-delayed, like, player shows in chat list 1-2 min after jumping in, not immediately), that will stop A LOT of 0.0 macro ISK farmers, just by other players.

For now, LOCAL change allow scripts to warp out and cloak in full-auto mode.


Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2009.01.30 13:17:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 30/01/2009 13:16:54
Originally by: Sola Sun
If you suspect AFK activities, why do not implement some kind of CAPTCHA for clients, who recently created assets in game, like ore, NPC loot or bounty ISK ?

Make some sort of threshold value here, so captcha wont interact with PvP pilots killing small NPC gate spawn.

If, as well, LOCAL chat will be changed to delayed mode (at least, half-delayed, like, player shows in chat list 1-2 min after jumping in, not immediately), that will stop A LOT of 0.0 macro ISK farmers, just by other players.

For now, LOCAL change allow scripts to warp out and cloak in full-auto mode.




Just in case you're actually honest with your post:
What you are suggesting won't work and will only **** off everyone else.
Captcha doesn't work and annoys.
Any local mode has it's own problems explained elsewhere.

Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.01.30 15:45:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Pazzuzzu

stuff



Prooving that macro miners generally exist, and prooving that one particular person is using a macro are two different things.

Normandy Xavier
Tower of Ravens
Posted - 2009.01.31 07:10:00 - [49]
 

First off, an interesting article.

I am one of the people that see macro mining as a problem. Why? Well, I see a big feature of eve is it's player based economy. When people are able to mine vast amounts with no limits they can create a monopoly over ore prices, minerals, etc. Monopolies are not allowed in most real life countries, so I think in a game with a market based aspect their should be at least some measures to at least make them harder to pull off. Monopolies shaft people, and most players get shafted by macro mining. Regardless of whether or not people have access to macro mining programs, not all people will have the best resources to run a PC 23 hours a day with the client open. (Playing on a family computer for example.)

So what do they say? I happen to be in group of people that use macro miners. They usually pull up this comment from the link at the beginning of my reply.
Quote:


From the EULA

“…You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game…”

specifically “at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.”

As I understand it rate = amount/time.

What EVEPlayer does cannot possibly earn him anything at an ACCELERATED rate when compared to ordinary gameplay. I would even argue that a real player, minute per minute, could earn money at a greater RATE than EVEPlayer, because bots aren’t perfect and generally can’t recognize things as well as a human.

What he does isn’t specifically forbidden by the rules everyone is yammering about. And don’t try to tell me I’m arguing semantics…that’s what rules ARE. If CCP wanted, they could have different language there (for example, read WoW’s EULA) but they don’t.

So, where’s the moral high ground now?



So this is what I think would be a good first step: see if we can get CCP to revise the EULA,
that way there will be at least some clarity of it being "not okay". If newer players are told that Macro mining is okay by their friend and shown the current section 7 of the EULA, it probably won't help the problem. Sure, it's not going to get all Macro Miners banned,etc...However this might be a helpful first step in the right direction. Just for ideas sake, here's the similar statement from the WoW EULA:

Quote:
B. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;

Eve Online EULA

Lisa Waen
Posted - 2009.01.31 23:29:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Not talking in local or answering convos doesn't make someone a macro - maybe they just don't want to talk to you? Sitting and mining for hours on end doesn't make someone a macro - maybe they just have alot of free time? The most reliable way of spotting a macro is the 'kill them all and let God sort them out' method - suicide gank the suspect, and see how they react. If they sit there as though nothing has happened, or carry on repeating the movement patterns in their pod that they were making whilst in their ship, you've probably found a macro. If they call you names in local and undock in a blasterthron looking for you, it probably wasn't.


So if you are truly macro-hunting and someone reacts as you stated above, calling you names, etc. Would you apologize for the gank and reimburse him for his lost equipment? (Insert laughter here) You may apologize, but the reimbursement would most likely be out of the question.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.02.04 00:49:00 - [51]
 

A friend of mine use to hunt macro miners, trick was to tip their cans and they would comeback to it and put more in it and hence were destroyed. It was kinda funny and they stopped using that system or at least marked my friend as hostile so they macro could warp them safety the moment they entered the system. Macros can range in sophistication from crude to so brilliant you couldn't tell it from a human miner. So it really is hard to tell who a macro and who isn't.

IAMYOURMAMA
Posted - 2009.03.17 09:42:00 - [52]
 

Jesus guys i have no issues with macro miners, they make an easy target for flipping /me then pockets the ore

Aluthin
Caldari
Squires of the Roundtable
KnightRaven Alliance
Posted - 2009.03.17 12:17:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Aluthin on 17/03/2009 12:18:32
Edited by: Aluthin on 17/03/2009 12:17:12
only issue i have with macro miners is if they are farming for an organisation in rl that is making a profit in rl money on what they mine.... ie: isk sellers..

forget trying to spot macro miners just catch the people selling and buying isk in breach of the eula as they are the ones ruining the game.... at least with gtc trading the majority of the money paid for the gtc goes back to eve and is reinvested in the continuing development of the game.... wheres isk sellers don't put anything back into the game but do affect the internal prices of items on the market as peeps who buy isk will buy at over inflated prices so stopping the cost of items coming down to more reasonable prices....

i've never used a macro and never will and i run 3 characters at once mining ice or ore in high sec.... i ignore local most of the time as i am usually chatting in alliance or corp chat too m8's whilst also watching tv or a film.... and to be honest most convo's in local in high sec are nothing but spam or something else i have no interest in.

One thing for sure am glad of is the orca as now i don't have to worry about thieves flipping my can...

Originally by: IAMYOURMAMA
Jesus guys i have no issues with macro miners, they make an easy target for flipping /me then pockets the ore
Twisted Evil

Overall as many others have said on here there is no way to catagorise a miner as a macroer 100% and thats what u would need to do to be able to ban a player as otherwise ccp would end up alienating a part of there customers and no company wants to do that....



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