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minouss
Posted - 2008.11.20 21:31:00 - [1]
 

In the interest of understanding MMORPG social mechanics, I'm wondering if any long-term players remember or have ideas about why Jita was chosen as the marketting hub to the universe.

In WOW Ironforge and Orgrimmar make sense as hubs because in earlier times they had the only faction Auction houses

Similarly, in SWG, it made a lot of sense that there was what players referred to as "Vendor Hell" areas around Coronet City and Mos Eisley, as these were the two most visited areas in the game (Coronet for long-term players and Eisley for nubbies).

So why Jita?

Yelan Zhou
Amarr
Ba.theen Aljannatal Asaakitah
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2008.11.20 21:36:00 - [2]
 

Coronet? On my server it was Theed on Naboo.Razz

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.11.20 21:50:00 - [3]
 

Geographically central, close to popular mission hubs (and former mission hub), 5th most stations of any system iirc, and 300 NPC production slots. Borders 2 regions and is also 1 jump away from a 3rd.

CornerStoner
Posted - 2008.11.20 22:05:00 - [4]
 

http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=JitaLinkage

Market Checkerr
Posted - 2008.11.20 22:33:00 - [5]
 

Aside from everything mentioned above, Yulai was the main market hub before Jita. When CCP remapped the solar systems making Yulai less convenient, most of the larger industrial parties declared Jita to be the new market hub and everyone followed.

IonHammer
Minmatar
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.11.21 00:26:00 - [6]
 

I have been playing a while not as long as some.

i remember the following trade hubs

Yuli was the original major trade hub.

Niyabainen was very popular as that's where Naga shop was stationed. Back before t2, npc mods was their main business.
After a couple of changes to routing because of lag the hub moved from Yuli to jita where it is today.

Why they were up in the Northern part of Eve I am not sure.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2008.11.21 01:09:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Brock Nelson on 21/11/2008 01:09:57
Why New York?
Why Tokyo?
Why Los Angeles?
Why London?

It's just a natural evolution of those cities and Jita in becoming a market hub of the world/universe

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.21 01:33:00 - [8]
 

Another thing to consider is the length of the name. Of the major trade hubs, only one, Oursulaert has a name longer than five characters. In comparison, you have Rens, Amarr, Hek, Nonni (not Nani, right?), and of course, Jita.

So here's my stab at what makes a great trade hub:

1) Location - Jita had this in spades: bordered two other regions and 3 jumps from Sinq Laisson. Only exit for a COSMOS constellation (don't know if that was there when Jita became a hub) shortest path for a lot of through traffic (eg, Motsu to Umokka). Right by the best Caldari Navy agents.

2) Had a faction navy station in system (Caldari Navy, of course).

3) Easy to remember name.

4) Other stuff like a pile of factory slots, some agents, ok asteroid belts, etc.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2008.11.21 01:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Another thing to consider is the length of the name. Of the major trade hubs, only one, Oursulaert has a name longer than five characters. In comparison, you have Rens, Amarr, Hek, Nonni (not Nani, right?), and of course, Jita.

So here's my stab at what makes a great trade hub:

1) Location - Jita had this in spades: bordered two other regions and 3 jumps from Sinq Laisson. Only exit for a COSMOS constellation (don't know if that was there when Jita became a hub) shortest path for a lot of through traffic (eg, Motsu to Umokka). Right by the best Caldari Navy agents.

2) Had a faction navy station in system (Caldari Navy, of course).

3) Easy to remember name.

4) Other stuff like a pile of factory slots, some agents, ok asteroid belts, etc.



Most hubs fit that bill. Jita doesn't have any 'roid belts

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:02:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Brock Nelson
Most hubs fit that bill. Jita doesn't have any 'roid belts
Jita used to have belts. The factors that formed Jita as the main central hub have been slowly removed in an attempt to optimize Jita.

I say optimize Jita though I think these were in effort to make Jita less attractive. However by removing agents and belts from Jita, thus reducing lag, only increased Jita's ability to facilitate market activity. After all, it is pretty much the only purpose to Jita's existance now.

Every other hub still suffers from other lag inducing factors. This should be considered as well as the still centralized location of Jita. Though I think Oursaleart is more centralized now than Jita, momentum is still on Jita's side. Even new players know about Jita pretty early in.

It isthe wrong policy, in my opinion, that CCP has been following. Instead of fixing lag in Jita, increase it!!!

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:17:00 - [11]
 

I disagree on the part about making Jita less attractive. They were trying to sex it up for trading. Smile

Originally by: Shar Tegral


It isthe wrong policy, in my opinion, that CCP has been following. Instead of fixing lag in Jita, increase it!!!


Shar, I'll be very cross, if CCP listens to you and destroys Jita as the trading hub of last resort. Currently, I can drag anything up to Jita and someone will buy it for a good price.

Johnny Rockefeller
Edge Technologies
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Shar, I'll be very cross, if CCP listens to you and destroys Jita as the trading hub of last resort. Currently, I can drag anything up to Jita and someone will buy it for a good price.


Agreed. I like knowing that if I ever need to buy or sell something, I can always do it in Jita, especially now that the lag is better.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:26:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Shar, I'll be very cross, if CCP listens to you and destroys Jita as the trading hub of last resort. Currently, I can drag anything up to Jita and someone will buy it for a good price.


They won't, there was once a superhub...and then CCP deleted from its existence in an attempt to "optimize" and guess what?! Jita became the new superhub.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:27:00 - [14]
 

I'll be honest, if CCP were to take any suggestion of mine: Nuke Jita. Nothing levels a playing field more than tossing a chessboard up in the air.

Have some sort of story line Arc about Federation Retaliaton (of some sort) and Concord forcing Interbus to evacuate people and materials. (I.e. Corporate offices and assets shifted to other systems/stations in a 5 - 10 jump range from Jita). Then, quite literally, Blow up every station in Jita.

Repopulate some belts and drop the Sec status to 0.3 or so. Then lower security ratings on neighboring systems to represent an increased chaos and lawlessness. That should sufficiently poison the well enough for a bit of restructuring.

Then add in a few detours and connecttions... for instance connect domain via Illuin and/or cut the short route from Synchelle to Domain.

Granted this is just spur of the moment brainstorming, which is likely to overlook a variety of factors, however to be honest Jita is an indicator that TQ has become far too stable and predictable.

I.e. Boring!!

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.11.21 02:36:00 - [15]
 

Oh and if I failed to offend anyone that is just a small idea of mine, iff'n I could dream.

A real dream would be an increase in tension and conflict with the various empires causing the cross-regional high security "super highway" gates to be shut down. Low sec would be the only option for traffic until diplomatic relations were tentatively restored. Even make the diplomatic restorations player dependent like the Gallente Presidential elections.

You want hi security routes to other empires.... go earn them!

CornerStoner
Posted - 2008.11.21 03:11:00 - [16]
 

....or a FW (Kamikaze style)invasion with Moms & Dreads crashing into all the stations.

KISOGOKU
Posted - 2008.11.21 08:42:00 - [17]
 

Jita was also neighbor to starter system Kisogo Wink

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.21 08:46:00 - [18]
 

I would say bcos Yulai was nerfed.

Jita just happens to sit in crossroads, had belts a while back and even reasonable quality agents so it appeared. Trade hubs are inevitable if people start trading. But yeah, main factor is topology of EVE universe - Jita just happens to sit in one of 'stable' points in there. Ie - almost next door for other sectors and at approx same distance from everywhere that counts in EVE.

Karanth
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2008.11.21 11:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Shar Tegral
Oh and if I failed to offend anyone that is just a small idea of mine, iff'n I could dream.

A real dream would be an increase in tension and conflict with the various empires causing the cross-regional high security "super highway" gates to be shut down. Low sec would be the only option for traffic until diplomatic relations were tentatively restored. Even make the diplomatic restorations player dependent like the Gallente Presidential elections.

You want hi security routes to other empires.... go earn them!



Didn't the election get shelved and replaced with a Dev fiat result?


Redbad
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.11.21 12:09:00 - [20]
 

Shar hits the nail on the head.

The geography of New Eden is too "artificially" stable. Nothing what players, groups of players or large alliances do can affect the NPC-Empires or their stability.

With more a dynamic geography and Empires that react to player actions (like the impact of an attack Shar described influencing security status) new opportunities would arise for the smart trader and playing fields can become interesting again.

The only risk you'd have is that "roleplaying" might be felt as a requirement at times. Shocked Laughing

Cheopis
Amarr
One Stop Mining Shop
One Stop Research
Posted - 2008.11.21 12:43:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Cheopis on 21/11/2008 12:44:11
The only way to really avoid the formation of a superhub would be to separate all of the major Empires by at least a couple lowsec jumps. This would severely restrict cross-regional transfer of mass quantities of goods. It would also cause most traders to jump up and down screaming and yelling furiously.

Other than that, IMHO, as long as players are not allowed to build their own infrastructure in highsec, there will always be a superhub. Even if players are allowed to start building their own highsec stations with research facilities, etc, there will still be a superhub, but it won't be as drastic.

Player built (highsec) stargates, stations with science and manufacturing facilities, etc would have an amazing effect on the patterns of trade and industry in EVE.

Redbad
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.11.21 13:07:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cheopis
Edited by: Cheopis on 21/11/2008 12:44:11
The only way to really avoid the formation of a superhub would be to separate all of the major Empires by at least a couple lowsec jumps. This would severely restrict cross-regional transfer of mass quantities of goods. It would also cause most traders to jump up and down screaming and yelling furiously.

Other than that, IMHO, as long as players are not allowed to build their own infrastructure in highsec, there will always be a superhub. Even if players are allowed to start building their own highsec stations with research facilities, etc, there will still be a superhub, but it won't be as drastic.

Player built (highsec) stargates, stations with science and manufacturing facilities, etc would have an amazing effect on the patterns of trade and industry in EVE.


This is exactly how I would have designed 0.0 space. Let those players with sovereignty themselves lay out the 0.0 lands and place stargates.


Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.21 13:11:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Hexxx on 21/11/2008 13:12:02
Jita is a product of the manifestation of Metcalfe's Law (also known as Network Effects). Jita is valuable as a utility, and as such, people find value in going there to trade.

a) Buyers find the most sellers in one place, so they go there to get a good price.

b) Sellers find the most buyers in one place, so they go there to get a good price.

Jita is a trading hub, and the value of it is exponential to the number of buyers/sellers in that network/hub. This value is expressed with the following equation:

n^2 where "n" equals the relative number of buyers/sellers.


You can read more about network effects in relation to microeconomics on this wikipedia article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

Keep in mind one that there are negative network effects. Negative network effects can result from resource limitation. To apply this to our current object of discussion, lag is caused by the resource limitation of so many users trading/flying/docking in Jita at any one time.

Another related subject is critical mass, which is required to create a "super hub" like Jita. Smaller more localized hubs are products of the same rules and principles.

Now...how do we apply these principals to the shifting landscape of trade hubs?

Resource limitations can have a very big effect on these trade hubs. Resource limitations come from lag, gate camps, and traffic routes. Limiting or hindering the methods used to reach a trade hub and use it decreases the value of that utility. Decrease the value of that utility enough and people will look for a substitute trade hub which suffers from less resource limitations.

In summary; there will always be a superhub. To quote Mr. Smith, "It is inevitable." Twisted Evil


Rolly Polly
20th Legion
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2008.11.21 18:16:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Rolly Polly on 21/11/2008 18:17:20
As people have mentioned it became what it was after the higways leading to yulai were cut, the single most important reason why was because jita 4 moon 4 caldari navy station was one of the main caldari navy mission stations. They removed those(I'm not sure but it may have had an ice belt at some time too) in an effort to scale back the population but it has become the main market for tech II gear and really the only market for moon materials.

So Caldari mission runners.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2008.11.21 21:23:00 - [25]
 

Not to mention when creating a character it's advantageous to create caldari characters as you get more benefits that way. So people create more caldari characters then any other race.

This only servers to continue to feed Jita new players more so then other hubs.

I've been wishing for a while exactly what Shar's dream scenario mentioned above.. CCP goes Role-play and announces the waring factions start destroying gates leading to the other factions leaving only a handful.

Limiting peoples movement is a great way to break up and or centralize the population. As an industrialist I don't have a station or operation in Jita or The Forge, but I'm under 10 jumps away from it, in a different region. This allows me to buy cheap from Jita, transport it and sell at higher prices. If an item doesn't sell I can at least take it to Jita and sell off cheap to get my ISK back.

Severing the insane amount of Jump gates all over EVE would serve to create much larger hubs in each empire.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.22 00:48:00 - [26]
 

I always wondered if there was a system in game that is more centrally located.

Meaning that is an equidistance from the majority of low sec systems/mission hubs and so on.

Somewhere that is TRULY central.

Might almost be worth the Devs putting in a new system, with a special station with a few dozen undocks. A "Superstation" if you will.

The new system would need a "supernode" of some sort. A node that is capable of handleing a lot more then they currently can.

Declare it the new market hub, and put a 30 day countdown on the stations in Jita. Say that they're all going to be removed, and rebuilt by the caldari goverment, so folks will need to remove everything from them.

I'd be all for it.

It'd never happen, but I'm all for it :)

Kitchie
Gallente
Vikramaditya
Posted - 2008.11.22 02:13:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kitchie on 22/11/2008 03:02:38
Originally by: Shar Tegral

It isthe wrong policy, in my opinion, that CCP has been following. Instead of fixing lag in Jita, increase it!!!



I agree with Shar on this one. Before StacklessIO, Jita had a self limiting ceiling on who would want to operate there.

Now....

Originally by: Caldari Navy
This is an automatic message. A bill of 347877341 ISK, due 2008.12.04 owed by you to Caldari Navy was issued 2008.11.04. This bill is for extending the lease on your office at Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant


That's a new record, by quite a margin, for me anyway.... Shocked

Edit: Having just got back to Jita, I thought I'd check today's rate: You have been quoted an office rental fee of 594,988,303.00 ISK. The rental period is for 30 day(s).

Station containers are suddenly looking attractive again....


Elderberry Whine
Posted - 2008.11.22 02:39:00 - [28]
 

CCP already tried this with Yulai, the result was Jita

Originally by: Shar Tegral
I'll be honest, if CCP were to take any suggestion of mine: Nuke Jita. Nothing levels a playing field more than tossing a chessboard up in the air.

Have some sort of story line Arc about Federation Retaliaton (of some sort) and Concord forcing Interbus to evacuate people and materials. (I.e. Corporate offices and assets shifted to other systems/stations in a 5 - 10 jump range from Jita). Then, quite literally, Blow up every station in Jita.

Repopulate some belts and drop the Sec status to 0.3 or so. Then lower security ratings on neighboring systems to represent an increased chaos and lawlessness. That should sufficiently poison the well enough for a bit of restructuring.

Then add in a few detours and connecttions... for instance connect domain via Illuin and/or cut the short route from Synchelle to Domain.

Granted this is just spur of the moment brainstorming, which is likely to overlook a variety of factors, however to be honest Jita is an indicator that TQ has become far too stable and predictable.

I.e. Boring!!


Srvin Taisorgky
Posted - 2008.11.22 04:25:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Elderberry Whine
CCP already tried this with Yulai, the result was Jita


Ditto and confirmation. Jita was to solve Yulai, It's really players that wanted a central hub, and not even a central hub but one station CNAP 4 4. Prices are not lowest in Jita but like a bazaar you can get most anything there.




Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.11.22 05:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Elderberry Whine
CCP already tried this with Yulai, the result was Jita
Wrong but I doubt you want to be right.

The factors surrounding the decentralizing of Yulai are different then exist today as well as the fact Yulai was truly central in more ways then just as a marketplace. Each empire pretty much directly connected with Yulai not to mention the direct low sec/0.0 connection (if I remember correctly).

The overload of Yulai was different from Jita as it was both marketplace and superhighway route. Jita can be moved around thus making Jita a destination in and of itself but rarely a mandatory system to pass through. Yulai was, often enough, mandatory to pass through. (Which is why it blossomed into a marketplace!)

Add in that the community was significantly smaller, the server environment more primitive by magnitudes, and the economic market was drastically less competitive or matured.

If you Yulaid Jita today there are already several strong hubs in play that many people would quickly turn to as alternates. (I'm not even going to bring up other factors like the Zombie Incident and the later creation of a good missioning system as further factors.)

If a survey was taken I'd bet you'd find most people know about Jita, would even complain about Jita, but would not have Jita deconstructed and splattered. Why? Laziness, plain and simple.


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