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Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.11.15 02:33:00 - [1]
 

well I've been in 0.0,doing 0.0 stuff,so not done missions for a while.
Jumped back to my empire clone which has an uber Golem,and asked for a mission and got Angel ExtraveganzaRazzCool

Loaded my missiles and less than 2 hours later(not sure if it was 90 min or nearer 2 hours) finished mission,all loot taken(including one trip back to station) , all wrecks salvaged.Cool

Can't see what the fuss is about,regarding missile nerf?Confused

my setup is mainly :
T2 Cruise launchers with T1 missiles
NO target painter(forgot,but didn't need itVery Happy)
Afterburner
T2 light drones
tractors+salvagers
and a mid slot dedicated to perma shield tank(including bonus room after all aggro you)

BSes were popped as normal(maybe 5-10% more missiles)
Cruisers popped a tad slower(saw biggest difference here)
Frigates popped by missile if over 40K,or drones despatched them

YARRRR!! to ugh and back toYARRRR!! in a day or twoLaughing

Serinao
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.11.15 05:33:00 - [2]
 

Problem with missile nerves doesn't lie in people having decent skills and access to tech2 lights

The biggest problem lies with caldari chars with 2-3 million sp that could do level 4's and now find they can't without some more training.



Mra Rednu
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.15 08:28:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Serinao
Problem with missile nerves doesn't lie in people having decent skills and access to tech2 lights

The biggest problem lies with caldari chars with 2-3 million sp that could do level 4's and now find they can't without some more training.






This, and the op I would imagine has good skills as well.

The missile users moaning the most are the ones with terible sp's in missiles and next to nothing in drones.

Try using a turret ship with same skills and see how that is !!!

Caldari is still missions on easy mode, just not quite so easy. Wink

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.15 08:55:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Serinao
Problem with missile nerves doesn't lie in people having decent skills and access to tech2 lights

The biggest problem lies with caldari chars with 2-3 million sp that could do level 4's and now find they can't without some more training.



Have managed to do one combat mission post patch (been busy elsewhere) and first impression is indeed okish. Fury missiles are now actually worth using also in some situations - using them (3x rigor + pwnage painter) allowed me to one volley BC's, kill elite cruisers with 3 volleys and top of the line BS (pith usurper) took the whole 6 volleys.

So things for experienced pilot with good gear are approx the same at first glance, but yeah, low sp pilots might feel some additional pain.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.11.15 09:18:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 15/11/2008 09:19:12
Originally by: Bimjo
Jumped back to my empire clone which has an uber Golem,and asked for a mission and got Angel ExtraveganzaRazzCool

Loaded my missiles and less than 2 hours later(not sure if it was 90 min or nearer 2 hours) finished mission,all loot taken(including one trip back to station) , all wrecks salvaged.Cool

Can't see what the fuss is about,regarding missile nerf?Confused



Heh. Thank you for confirming my suspicions about those who don't see what the fuss is about.

AE, including salv&loot, isn't supposed to take more then 75min tops in a proper Golem. 40-50 for the mission itself, or max 30min without bonus room. Well, that's what it was like prepatch, now it probably takes a lot longer. Which is what the fuss is about.

And Carniflex, try Angels or Mercs.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.15 09:26:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon

Heh. Thank you for confirming my suspicions about those who don't see what the fuss is about.

AE, including salv&loot, isn't supposed to take more then 75min tops in a proper Golem. 40-50 for the mission itself, or max 30min without bonus room. Well, that's what it was like prepatch, now it probably takes a lot longer. Which is what the fuss is about.

And Carniflex, try Angels or Mercs.


Yeah. Angels or Mercs would prolly make me to sing a whole different song. They were not exactly perfect for bigger missiles even before patch and prolly considerably worse now.

I'll hold my final judgement for the day when I have some proper numbers to base that judgement on tho. Currently I have just rather brief exposure to it - just to get some initial impression. It might help to ease my pain also, that I use usually cruise missiles with damage focused setup. As far as I understand signature has now bigger impact on damage than before and my 'regular' cruise has sig of 147 m, fury has sig of 270 m and precision around 125 m. Have yet to try platform without rigor rigs.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 09:28:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 15/11/2008 09:28:11
Originally by: Qui Shon
AE, including salv&loot, isn't supposed to take more then 75min tops in a proper Golem. 40-50 for the mission itself, or max 30min without bonus room. Well, that's what it was like prepatch, now it probably takes a lot longer.

CCP disagrees on that, as do others (me included). L4 mission running in high-sec is WAY too profitable as it is compared to 0.0 activities. Increasing 0.0 moneymaking is a bad idea as it leads to more ISK being pumped into the economy, so the best solution is to nerf high-sec L4's.

For the amount of money you earn from AE/GE/WC, they should take 2-3 hours.

I make my own money from high-sec L4's simply because overall it pays better than ratting in 0.0. This is not how it SHOULD be however, as the added risk in 0.0 should be rewarded.

The risk/reward ratio for high-sec L4's is not balanced right, and if what Zulupark said in his answers is true, we'll see a nerf on that soon(tm).
Max. mission income in high-sec should be along the lines of 10m/hour, loot/salvage included...


Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.15 09:41:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

CCP disagrees on that, as do others (me included). L4 mission running in high-sec is WAY too profitable as it is compared to 0.0 activities. Increasing 0.0 moneymaking is a bad idea as it leads to more ISK being pumped into the economy, so the best solution is to nerf high-sec L4's.

For the amount of money you earn from AE/GE/WC, they should take 2-3 hours.

I make my own money from high-sec L4's simply because overall it pays better than ratting in 0.0. This is not how it SHOULD be however, as the added risk in 0.0 should be rewarded.

The risk/reward ratio for high-sec L4's is not balanced right, and if what Zulupark said in his answers is true, we'll see a nerf on that soon(tm).
Max. mission income in high-sec should be along the lines of 10m/hour, loot/salvage included...



That is not CCP official opinion. It was Zuluparks personal one and he stated so. As far as missions 'nerfs' go all he stated was that all level missions will get looked at around first quarter of 2009. Loot tables will get some love with high propability and perhaps some tweaks also to missions themselves altho later one depends on the analysis of situation.

As far as opinions go yours is that 10 m / h is top acceptable, mine is that current situation is fine. Everyone has opinion usually.

Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:18:00 - [9]
 

What happened is that they nerfed new raven players.

Skilled Torpedo Golem with target painters is still a beast.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Kerfira

stuff™


That is not CCP official opinion ***stuff™*** mine is that current situation is fine. Everyone has opinion usually.


it is also incorrect. I know from personal experience that 0.0 ratting and general life in 0.0 is alot more profitable than L4 missions.

i will also agree with carniflex and say that the current situation is just fine.

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:55:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Bimjo on 15/11/2008 10:58:15
Originally by: Mikal Drey

I know from personal experience that 0.0 ratting and general life in 0.0 is alot more profitable than L4 missions.



with all due respect NOVery Happy (with regards to solo ratting)

depends on your alliance mainly,if your patch is super secure,rare for even the big alliances,then ratting pays,otherwise you get interrupted everytime a few pilots enter your system,and the other factor that gets in the way is fleet ops/roams , especially if your alliance is at war with others or is busy securing their own area.(also I don't play all my free hours on EVE)



to the poster who does AE in 75 mins, niceVery Happy , I suppose I could cut my time down to below 90 mins,especially if I don't pick up everything(my cargo space filled up,hence left for station,lost 5-7 mins) and if I had a painter on(forgotEmbarassed) also I had to answer the phone whilst in bonus roomRazz

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
I know from personal experience that 0.0 ratting and general life in 0.0 is alot more profitable than L4 missions.

True, if you look at it in pure ISK terms, and doesn't take into account:
1. Losses (ie. risk)
2. Time/effort to re-ammo
3. Time spent idling waiting for hostiles to go away
4. Time spent getting a chain going well
5. Time/effort spent getting loot/salvage to market
6. Attention requirement

If these are taken into account, 0.0 ratting is only more profitable in some rather special circumstances, ie. when you're deep in friendly territory, has hours to spend and there is a local market for your loot/salvage.
This is not the typical case....

A mission runner otoh is earning top ISK from the 1st minute of fighting, has ammo supplies nearby at no effort, can sell his loot/salvage locally, doesn't have to worry about hostiles, and can play semi-afk.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:05:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 15/11/2008 11:14:05
Originally by: Bladen Kerst
What happened is that they nerfed new raven players.

True, and about time too. No more 'Battleship 2', 'Cruise Missile 1' players without drone skills and with low shield skills running L4's.

This is PERFECTLY fine!
Originally by: Bladen Kerst
Skilled Torpedo Golem with target painters is still a beast.

Also true....

I just ran through 'Vengeance (Guristas)' in about 30 minutes, including coming back to salvage in another ship. I haven't changed my 1-painter setup from before QR. Total earnings everything included was around 25m (maybe a bit more).

EDIT: I forgot to add the LP to the earnings. They were around 7000 and I normally earn around 1300 ISK/LP, so add another ~9m ISK.

Funny thing was, that I was 2-volleying EVERY single cruiser in that mission. I've never been able to do that before as before QR some would take 3 volleys. BS vere about the same or maybe a little faster. BC's and destroyers were 1-volleys as before. Elite frigs effectively weren't damaged by torps, but dies fast to T2 light drones (as it should be).

EDIT: Skill-wise, I have perfect tanking skills (as in 'everything tank related at 5'), top missiles (all at 5 except spec which is 4), good drone skills, Painting 4/4, Marauder 4.

Ghoest
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:12:00 - [14]
 

I had pretty much the exact same experience. Elite cruisers take longer than I care for but otherwise no problem - I did use a painter.

I cas see though how its a big change for low sp players.

Fenix12
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:27:00 - [15]
 

I agree that L4's are more profitable UNLESS you find ,say, a true sansha with a 320mil implant in the wreckVery Happy

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fenix12
I agree that L4's are more profitable UNLESS you find ,say, a true sansha with a 320mil implant in the wreckVery Happy

System please,and leave that implant for me,I'll be on my way asapRazz

slightly off topic,I was roaming in 0.0 in my +5 implants ,by mistake,and got ambushedugh

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.15 14:37:00 - [17]
 

Back on topic. Managed to find time to do 'real' level 4 combat mission at last. Mission was 'the assault' - relatively battleship heavy mission with some very irritating elite cruisers in the mix. Below average amount of frigates. For this mission I used pair of cruise missile golems without rigor rigs nor target painters. Ammo used was CN one as usual for me.

Before patch my average mission completion time for that mission was 20 minutes (plus minus few minutes around that)
After patch my current mission completion time for that mission was 18 minutes (do they jam more than before now ?)

BC's still pop with one volley. Regular cruisers take 2 volleys, elite ones are however major pain taking aprox same amount of missiles to kill than your average NPC battleship. Regular frigates can be killed with cruise in approx same speed than light drones kill them, however elite frigates are killed faster with light drones than with cruise missiles. Got also angel vaganza, but had to turn it down bcos I don't do low sec in mission ships. Sitting on 4h timer atm Wink

So initial conclusion ? - Cruise missiles work in that mission as good (if not better) than before. All the saved time can't be dropped into 'cruise work better' tho, as those module timers make me also more effective with my fire distribution leaving less 'idle' time for my launchers.

We will see what song will I sing after I stumble into one of those critter heavy events like massive attack or rogue drone harassment Wink. Those few frigs I did kill with missiles were kinda hinting that I might not be happy at all after that experience.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 16:27:00 - [18]
 

Just did 'Stop The Thief' and 'The Score (Sansha)'.

Both were quick and I noticed no real changes to killing speed. The two T1 frigates I shot with torps were 1-volley'ed.

Got AE lined up, but'll probably not do it until tomorrow.

Sofia Kyodai
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.11.15 16:54:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Sofia Kyodai on 15/11/2008 16:55:13
Edited by: Sofia Kyodai on 15/11/2008 16:54:50
Originally by: Carniflex
Back on topic. Managed to find time to do 'real' level 4 combat mission at last. Mission was 'the assault' - relatively battleship heavy mission with some very irritating elite cruisers in the mix. Below average amount of frigates. For this mission I used pair of cruise missile golems without rigor rigs nor target painters. Ammo used was CN one as usual for me.

Before patch my average mission completion time for that mission was 20 minutes (plus minus few minutes around that)
After patch my current mission completion time for that mission was 18 minutes (do they jam more than before now ?)

BC's still pop with one volley. Regular cruisers take 2 volleys, elite ones are however major pain taking aprox same amount of missiles to kill than your average NPC battleship. Regular frigates can be killed with cruise in approx same speed than light drones kill them, however elite frigates are killed faster with light drones than with cruise missiles. Got also angel vaganza, but had to turn it down bcos I don't do low sec in mission ships. Sitting on 4h timer atm Wink

So initial conclusion ? - Cruise missiles work in that mission as good (if not better) than before. All the saved time can't be dropped into 'cruise work better' tho, as those module timers make me also more effective with my fire distribution leaving less 'idle' time for my launchers.

We will see what song will I sing after I stumble into one of those critter heavy events like massive attack or rogue drone harassment Wink. Those few frigs I did kill with missiles were kinda hinting that I might not be happy at all after that experience.


I did the same mission in my Cruise-CNR, without flare rigs either, only one PWNAGE painter and t1 plain cruise missiles, and finished it in 20 minutes... And it took you the same time in two Golems and faction ammo??? Shocked

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.11.15 17:11:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Sofia Kyodai

I did the same mission in my Cruise-CNR, without flare rigs either, only one PWNAGE painter and t1 plain cruise missiles, and finished it in 20 minutes... And it took you the same time in two Golems and faction ammo??? Shocked


Err - if you say is true then I must have huge room for improvement. Was not looking only at stars in there. Two golems with 4x CN BCU's, both pilots with 5% rof and damage hardwires, proper support skills for missiles. Was jammed for approx 15% of the mission tho that is somewhat heavier than I'm used to, but thats only about few minutes of being jammed. So there must be something wrong with either your time or my tacktiks used.

Time measured is from first hit in mission to last hit in mission, extracted from combat logs for both pilots and longer time is used (17 min 54 seconds). One guy was shooting bigger ships (can not look at that guy for around 30 seconds that way) and another one was managing launcher to not waste volleys on far away targets (ie 1 volley for BC's and 2 for regular cruisers). Travel distances are negliable in this mission. I killed all targets in that mission. All launchers were grouped into one group.

I'll try next time with my pair of CNR's with rigor rigs. In my experience using second ship makes missions approx 40% faster in average.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 19:57:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 15/11/2008 19:58:07
Angel Extravaganza level 4
Before mentioned Golem, no other accounts, switched to Drake to salvage and loot what I couldn't hold in the Golem.
Total time: 1 hour 21 minutes incl, looting/salvage
Time is from 1st undock to final dock.
This is about par with before QR.

Bounties/reward: ~32.5m ISK
LP: ~7100 = ~9.2m ISK
Salvage: ~24m ISK
Loot: At least ~25m ISK (rough estimate based on refine value and good items)
Rough total: ~90m ISK

The 4th stage implant was only a 2m ISK one :-(

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:14:00 - [22]
 

Hmm, that's good to read Kerfira.Just to be sure, this is with torps, right? How many painters?

Kuranta
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:44:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Serinao
The biggest problem lies with caldari chars with 2-3 million sp that could do level 4's and now find they can't without some more training.


This.

Can't see a problem with it. Didn't hear 2-3mil SP turret users complaining - cause missions have allways been harder for them.

I've ben Amarr spec and couldn't match caldari pilots in my SP level until beeing VERY specced in gunnery (beeing competative to them about 1 year later).




Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.15 22:03:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Durzel on 15/11/2008 22:03:55
Originally by: Mra Rednu
Originally by: Serinao
Problem with missile nerves doesn't lie in people having decent skills and access to tech2 lights

The biggest problem lies with caldari chars with 2-3 million sp that could do level 4's and now find they can't without some more training.



This, and the op I would imagine has good skills as well.

This, and the OP said he had an "uber Golem" as well - which I presume means faction/officer fit. Hardly a fair comparison is it?

But yeah - by and large the loudest whiners are the ones who jumped into a Raven the second they trained Caldari BS 2, with zero drone skills.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.11.15 22:57:00 - [25]
 

AE you should be running faster; assuming you grouped your missiles.

currently defenders are bugged where they fire 1 defender every tenth volley. Which destroys 1 cruise missile of dmg. Where normally multiple cruise could be destroyed.

AE typically has close range bs and thusly defenders arent an issue... but there are spawns which are far away.

Technically you should have seen BS dieing faster.

Cruisers obviously slower.

So that's the hitch isnt it? If you seem to be going a bit slower or same... when they fix that bug... you are going to have an epically slower game.

Now go try a mission with very few bs.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.11.15 22:59:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 15/11/2008 23:04:35
Originally by: Qui Shon
Hmm, that's good to read Kerfira.Just to be sure, this is with torps, right? How many painters?

Yup. Torps, 1 PWNAGE painter. I used just a few T2 Javelins with the rest being standard T1 torps (not faction).

I do have a full set of applicable Torp 5% implants, all missile skills at 5 except for the spec's, Marauder 4 and painter 4/4. Decent, but not perfect drone skills.

To be honest, it FELT like it was just a tiny bit easier than before QR, but I haven't got anything specific to base that on. It COULD just have been because the cycle indicator helps me to time painter activation and torp firing better.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.15 23:50:00 - [27]
 

missile complaining is just loads of whining, ignore it or flame it whichever you prefer. seriously one was arguing that the caracal is a t2 bc Laughing easy prey.




for reference in the last couple days I was flying against amarr navy, caldari navy (still using my amarr navy tank), angels, mercs and some serpentis all in my arbelist cruise raven without any serious problems (couple warp outs but that's to be expected when you can't be bothered to go find the proper tank modules for your raven when you misplaced em 6 months ago).


 

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