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blankseplocked The Fall of Kourmonen / Post-DT FW plex mechanics in a QR world
 
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Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eran Mintor on 12/11/2008 22:20:43
(wasn't sure where to put this, move as needed)

It's no big secret, the only time plexes respawn correctly is when the server comes back online after a downtime.

Link to Greyscale's comments

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Unfortunately yes, there is a DT-related mechanic...Without this mechanic, the natural redistribution of sites will inevitably cause them to pile up in non-spawnable systems, which is highly undesirable, and the distributor isn't currently capable of elegantly handling the problem on its own. A downtime reshuffle was the best compromise we could find between server performance and optimal behaviour.


So it sounds to me like the server was incapable of handling a more effective (read; fair) mechanic that would allow plexes to be reallocated 23/7. With this current mechanic, it's possible for post-DT players to completely sway the outcome of faction warfare by focusing their efforts on plexing during the initial hours after downtime. This is how Ezzara fell, and now how Kourmonen has fallen as well. This mechanic makes FW very static during any time other than post-DT, and also makes it very predictable. You could expect there to be 0-1 plexes spawned in Kourmonen during the 22 hours after initial server start-up, while expecting atleast 10 plexes in Kourmonen in the first hour at start-up.

Everyone is aware of this flawed mechanic. Minmatar militia have known of it for some time now, however we were rarely in the position to exploit it such as the Amarr militia has. The hours leading up to the QR extended downtime, there was an unexpected server crash that resulted in a short DT, and effectively respawned Kourmonen. 3 plexes were found in Kourm after this unexpected DT and we were able to capture 2/3. In the hours after QR was released, 7 plexes were captured in our favor, out of maybe 8 or 9. We almost put the system out of decontested.

Yet I wake up the next morning to find that the Amarr have not only captured another 9 plexes required to negate our work from the day before, but had to have captured another 2-3 to put it into "Vulnerable" status. I'm not fretting over the fact we lost Kourmonen, I knew it was only a matter of time since the Amarr have had the DT-mechanic in their favor for weeks now. What I am complaining about is the excuse used by CCP to warrant this mechanic. If the server's couldn't handle it pre-QR, what about now that you have your "amazing" 64 bit servers and stackless IO? Can we expect some changes w/ FW mechanics soon? Please?

This mechanic is killing FW. You need the plexes in these hotly contested systems to spawn throughout the day, not only to make it fair and playable to your subscribers across the globe (I'm not staying up till 5 AM to plex, [email protected]# that, I'll quit FW if u suckers keep giving us the cold-shoulder.), but to incite good PVP in those plexes.

Those who agree with me are welcome to sign this, those who don't can shove it up their arse.

edit: fixed link

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:21:00 - [2]
 

The mechanic is highly annoying. As I described in the linked thread, it basically means the side with the better presence after DT is always going to have a major advantage - they'll have an easier time defending newly-captured systems, and an easier time re-taking lost systems.

It doesn't particularly matter how it is fixed, though, as long as it removes the extreme advantage of having a stronger fleet right after downtime.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:24:00 - [3]
 

What was wrong with the other thread?

"If the server's couldn't handle it pre-QR, what about now that you have your "amazing" 64 bit servers and stackless IO? Can we expect some changes w/ FW mechanics soon? Please?"
Those were actually deployed weeks ago, not yesterday. If the servers couldn't handle it before yesterday, they couldn't handle with the stuff you mentioned (I don't think all nodes are 64 bit btw).

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:29:00 - [4]
 

This issue needs to be looked at. While I have previously taken advantage of this mechanic, I think it is flawed and extra effort needs to go into finding a workable replacement modus operanti - and that isn't easy when there aren't obvious better ideas at this stage.

Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:30:00 - [5]
 

Hmm, didn't know about this. It certainly makes some sense.


Danillo Z
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:31:00 - [6]
 

Maybe if plex capturing only became available when a certain number of militia is online each side.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:36:00 - [7]
 

I agree completely that's it pretty irritating. All significant capture actions have occured shortly after DT, I think all the systems recaptured by the Amarr were within 2 hours after DT. For myself, I'm rarely able to play shortly after DT, and thus cannot participate in any significant FW battles.

However, the DT mechanic does give a clear focus to capture actions, rather than the idioticially boring and time consuming scanning/plexing, which, in over 90% of the cases, does not lead to any PvP. The hour after DT actually means something, for you will have to actually fight to prevent something nasty from happening, which is good.

Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:40:00 - [8]
 

Has the suggestion be made that plexes act like probes just not that they allow a part of space to be scanned instead they allow part of space to be marked as "occupied by" with an actuall influence sphere ?

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:50:00 - [9]
 

The current state of the FW complex spawn mechanic is broken, and CCP recognizes that, but considers fixing it too much of a chore. FW has so much unrealized potential, don't let it continue dying a slow death because you're too busy coming up with the next expansion content.

Oh, and get a move on with alliance access to FW.

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.11.12 23:00:00 - [10]
 

We all new Kourm was gonna fall due to faulty mechanics, it was just a matter of time. If the fact that There are no plexes available in kourm 21-22 hours of the 23 the server is running is not an issue for you, I don't know what is. Even the bit of RP you where trying to add to plexing lost is appeal the second it happened to be in kourm, the last Minmatar-occupied Amarr system.

Case and point is, after QR-DT 7 plexes where defended with out any contest from the Amarr. Clearly, the only reason they are ahead at this time is this broken mechanic.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2008.11.12 23:12:00 - [11]
 

is it mainly the last system in a constellation that is really broken?

and the rest of the time it works "OK" (or at least what passes for OK) ?

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.12 23:14:00 - [12]
 

Ok I have a few quettions to that as I am not into FW:

Why cant the Minmatar Militia take favor of this, too?/Why can the Amarr?
Do conquered plexes despawn without option to recapture them?

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.11.13 00:04:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious
is it mainly the last system in a constellation that is really broken?

and the rest of the time it works "OK" (or at least what passes for OK) ?


Plexing mechanics don't work per constellation, apparently. But the last system in a constellation is the worse. This mechanic favors the defender in that all the plexes due to spawn in occupied systems do so after DT and seem to get lost in other non-occupied systems the rest of the day and thus can't be capped. The less ocupied systems in a region you have the worse the "Ezzara Effect" gets.

Derek Medrana
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.11.13 00:06:00 - [14]
 

As a new member to FW, and the hour post downtime = me...in a car....on the way to work........doubly signed.

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.11.13 00:21:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Neu Bastian on 13/11/2008 00:43:09
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Ok I have a few quettions to that as I am not into FW:

Why cant the Minmatar Militia take favor of this, too?/Why can the Amarr?
Do conquered plexes despawn without option to recapture them?



Again, it favors the faction that has less occupied systems. Other than that, the Minmatar seem to have fewer pilots at the time and post-DT seems to be the only time the Amarr can roam uncontested.

And yes, conquered plexes disappear.

Mukiri
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.11.13 00:36:00 - [16]
 

It is not just a matter of the game mechanic on the turning but also on the players around the globe. The specific and limited spawn time means that only certain time zones can truly engage with this and thus means other time zones lose a huge chance at playability.

By setting this time I know for US playwers this makes things a mess. The time right after down time for me, in CST means I can be late for work or play Eve. This means a significant feature of the game is not possible for me to enjoy. Now I am sure I am not the only one so based on the description this means that US players are limited in their ability to enjoy FW play.

I am curious, could not these spawns be random within the 23 hour period? I mean I know sometimes it will stop one time zone from joining but at least this would be fair with everyone having a miss now and then.

FW is a pretty major feature and this is a pretty serious flaw in a major feature. I am really suprised CCP is not openly addressing this FAST! Right now I have 6 friends I am trying to talk into coming back to Eve. ALL of them are only interested due to FW. I can tell you right now I will suggest they wait for this matter to be addressed.


Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.13 01:09:00 - [17]
 

Nennamalia is the same way - 22 hours of the day, hardly anything there. Right after DT there's always tons of plexes AND it's a hotly contested system. Even though we (the Gallente) are generally better plexers than the Caldari they usually have the upper hand right after DT since it's the slowest time of the day generally and they outnumber us two to one.

If you want proof of the effect that the OP is talking about, just look at the FW stats page, and check out the huge VP spike yesterday on both the Gallente and Minmatar sides as a result of the server coming back up at a more favorable time.

Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2008.11.13 02:32:00 - [18]
 

unfortunately, plexes have always had this problem, it used to be worse actually. Back when plexes where static, you knew they would spawn after DT...which meant there was a post DT rush to get to the plex, and whoever got in first got the plex. We would all log off on the warpin gate as DT came...then wait out DT.

Exploration hid this a bit. Now you have to find the plex first. But if your main playing time is after DT, you still get your choice of plex. For someone like me, who is American west coast, there really is no point to exploration in most systems.

All plexes need a variable random spawn timer. Time based spawning just leads to camping, farming, and unfair situations.

Lebaneur
Minmatar
Tribal Core
Posted - 2008.11.13 06:52:00 - [19]
 

Will not bloody likely quit my day job to fight the Amarr after DT. Middle of the day for EET is just as bad as the middle of the night.
And the problem is cumulating... If we would succeed in taking one of Amarr systems, they would get it back pretty easily using the post-DT exploit, so whats the point?

Thorvik
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:22:00 - [20]
 

I briefly enjoyed the post QR-DT and wish we could see more of that. We got some good fights, I lost a few ships and all was good. If this mechanic does not get fixed I am with Eran and will quit FW. Plexing is a great way to get to do PvP. The different plex sizes and the restrictions really do a good job of getting the players who fly smaller ships an opportunity to get into a good fight. It's not a bad system, it's just the mechanics that suck. Do something or CCP will lose many Minmatar players to 0.0

Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:52:00 - [21]
 

I do think that this might be better put up as issue in the CSM forums to be pushed up higher priority and should also be discussed with alternatives/solutions/new input in the game development forum.

Shern
Minmatar
Hevaka Agreement
Posted - 2008.11.13 08:28:00 - [22]
 

It does seem unfair that a deciding factor in FW is how many people you can field immediatly after downtime - when many people will be at work...

Erim Kaluk
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
Posted - 2008.11.13 08:33:00 - [23]
 

Definately unfair and boring for those of us who are unable to be in game just after DT.

El Covah
LOCKDOWN.
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 - [24]
 

This whole situation reminds me on old days when we were sitting day by day around DT to camp the 10/10 plex. Those party with the best TZ for doing it then got it. Laughing

Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
Posted - 2008.11.13 09:48:00 - [25]
 

It wasn't just a TZ advantage, it was dedication.

Although I appreciate that the Amarr militia was willing to compromise their lives to concentrate their efforts on the DT plexing, and I salute them for such dedication, it's not something many of us can do.

For us, less dedicated, players, this broken mechanic should be fixed.

T 2
Minmatar
Tribal Core
Posted - 2008.11.13 11:50:00 - [26]
 

And I'd like to remind people that are reading that this is not about whining cos we are losing etc. I salute Amarr for being able to have the dedicated people get online after downtime - a true effort and shows dedication to the game.

However this should be addresses same as the POS reinforcement. If all POS'es were to come out of reinforcement right after DT... You get my point? This needs to be addressed and balanced. Factional Warfare is great but this and the fact that Plexing really does not give any rewards is making peeps drop FW.

Best Regards,
T 2

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.13 11:58:00 - [27]
 

I'm already bringing this up through the CSM and I discussed this at fanfest as well.

At fanfest they were very 'meh' about it and I hope I'll get some better answers when I hand over the official CSM document.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.11.13 12:43:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 13/11/2008 12:49:31
What a joke, and it is not funny.Rolling Eyes

Reminds me of my suspicion about broken mechanics regarding Signal Strength and actual probability of finding an exploration site, which I have already collected a good deal of data to prove.

I sincerely hope CCP will take care of these serious broken mechanics before adding in tech 3 and all the bugs there will come with that.

Neu Bastian
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.11.13 12:48:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
I'm already bringing this up through the CSM and I discussed this at fanfest as well.

At fanfest they were very 'meh' about it and I hope I'll get some better answers when I hand over the official CSM document.


Awesomesauce

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2008.11.13 13:05:00 - [30]
 

Signed.

I live in Germany and have so-so results when looking for plexes unless it's during the weekend.

Please change this as I am not planning to give up my day job to stare at timers for hours on end.
While I could grind missions for the ISK ang GTCs, without a day job I'd soon be out of power and internet...


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