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Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2008.12.04 19:11:00 - [121]
 

Good lord, when you need two post to reply to a person, you know you are taking things seriously. Very Happy

We need to chill, I think Embarassed

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2008.12.04 19:43:00 - [122]
 

I imagine any major increase to mining yield through whatever cause will wind up lowering the price of minerals, either leaving the overall value of mining the same, or even reducing the profit from the current level.

And again, while I like some of the changes, making people play minigames while mining just to get ore out won't make it more interesting, just more frustrating, which would have the opposite effect.

What I would like to see skills have a greater impact in, and perhaps the increase in interactivity go towards, is the ability to find more valuable ore deposits. That's a place where I think the improvement could really go.

Kalderion Mar
Posted - 2008.12.05 04:26:00 - [123]
 


many of the changes will just be a new learning curve to figure it all out again. weather you mine 9 accounts or two. I refuse to pay for more than two, though i have often lamented the fact I need a third, it will not happen.. unless of course someone decides to donate me a character thats got 50 mil skill points in industry??? :P in which case I would consider that twisting my arm and not voluntary :)

I have seen many people, actually get upset at the "idiots" that claim most high sec belts are wiped out regularly.. I havent said much about that, because I had a couple places I could sneak off to that usualy had goodly sized roids, and it was only two jumps from a station... I also had a really good place three jumps from a station...

Three days ago, I went to the 2 jump spot, and found it VERY occupied, two corps, same alliance, several barges haulers and two orca's... ok, so I left, and headed to my three jump spot... same deal, VERY occupied, of the 13 or 14 belts in that system, four were stripped completely empty, one had two orcas and four barges in it, another had three barges and I saw a mamoth and an impel, I managed to finally get a belt and do some mining, but it made me think about all those complaints about empty systems and the changes that are being planned.

So, I spent the next two days looking for a "good" system, with decent belts. I spent over 8 hours the first day, and almost seven hours the second day, and I have not found a single system within two jumps of a station with decent belts. I have not looked in Caldari space yet, and I have not spent much time in Gallente space, but to be honest, I was somewhat shocked at what I found. I am going to spend at least another 8 hours, looking at systems that are three jumps from a station.. I am already somewhat disillusioned and aggravated, but will try one more day to find some of these systems that are supposedly "untouched" and in highsec that someone spoke of as they shoved it down some poor fellows throat when he complained...
I have tried to stay away from hubs, and jump out points for lowsec and 0.0, as the poster claimed and .... suggested.

Unless something changes Drastically in my final search, I would have to put my two cents in and agree with those claiming "most" highsec belts are empty. With the Orca making it possible to haul more, I now see my back up spots being stripped before my eyes... I would really like to think there are some places less inhabited, but have not, as yet, found them.

I had been dreading the changes, or at least some of them, but after this fruitless search, I am beginning to think, the mining profession is going to go bunk before CCP can put any of them into effect. This search, just changed my whole point of view dramatically :( Hurry up CCP!

Salen Tavy
Caldari
Planetary Decontamination Service Inc.
Posted - 2008.12.05 17:09:00 - [124]
 

Omg, this can't be more true. All hi-sec is STRIPPED CLEAN! I guess my mining days will soon be over. At least missions don't run out!

NetBlaise 1
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.07 07:18:00 - [125]
 

What in the world are you talking about. "High Sec Belts are clean/empty". Thats a damn lye. I fly from Domain to Citidel about twice a week and find plenty of belts with no one in them. The problem is that your not searching far enough. I have 3 spots with a set of Hulks/Transport ships/etc set up so i will be able to mine in diffirent Regions at any given time. Also if your in high traffic areas (anywhere near a hub, Jita, Amarr, etc) the belts are going to be full. Also so what if their are people in the belt. Man, get your butt in their and mine. I don't no why you think your going to have a belt all to yourself, lol. Just a comment from a real miner...

ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company
Independent Faction
Posted - 2008.12.10 12:47:00 - [126]
 

First, /signed on most of the ideas. Making mining more than warp -> target -> f1-f3 -> zzZZzz would be nice, but not all mining, it's still nice to slap a mining laser on an Iteron and afk-mine for 3 hours while studying. But risk/effort vs. reward is needed.

Second, WTH is with all the flaming? Someone get an extinguisher, please?

Lastly... A 5 page thread on mining and no Chribba? What? ugh

BTW, remove belts from the overview NOW and make them findable with the onboard scanner, just add a scan group called "belts". It's simple, won't make finding the belts very hard and nerfs the macros.

Kalderion Mar
Posted - 2008.12.11 03:11:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Kalderion Mar on 11/12/2008 03:14:44
Originally by: NetBlaise 1
What in the world are you talking about. "High Sec Belts are clean/empty". Thats a damn lye. I fly from Domain to Citidel about twice a week and find plenty of belts with no one in them. The problem is that your not searching far enough. I have 3 spots with a set of Hulks/Transport ships/etc set up so i will be able to mine in diffirent Regions at any given time. Also if your in high traffic areas (anywhere near a hub, Jita, Amarr, etc) the belts are going to be full. Also so what if their are people in the belt. Man, get your butt in their and mine. I don't no why you think your going to have a belt all to yourself, lol. Just a comment from a real miner...


I havent looked much in caldari space, but I will try it at your suggestion, and I have to wonder what you mean by full belts?
two years ago a Kern roid would last more than 1.5 cycles and a veld roid could be mined for half an hour.
Mining Scordite you can now strip the entire belt in half an hour.
I can find belts with roids in them, just not belts that aren't sripped before every respawn, and very tiny. If i wanted to mine the tiny belts I can go to a .9 and mine it every morning before the macroers show up.
Yes I can find ores, but these "Untouched" highsec belts someone was flaming someone else about earlier seem to be avoiding my grasp.
Obviosly you didnt read my post, you just read what you wanted and ignored the rest. I went father than you do in your wqeekly jaunts that you speak of, and I also said I avoided hubs etc. I do appreciate the advice, but I don't appreciate being called a liar when you didn't read the entire post.


Originally by: NetBlaise 1
Also so what if their are people in the belt. Man, get your butt in their and mine.


Uhh, no. thats one of the things that irritates me most about this game, and why I will eventually quit playing it. the lack of other peoples common decency.
If I warp to a belt, and you are mining it, I will go find another one. why? Because you were there first, and I respect your space. I will leave you to mine it, even if it is the only belt left to mine within 20 jumps.
I try to respect other people, because its the right thing to do, if your in a game or not.

Edit
copied from ShadowDragons post

BTW, remove belts from the overview NOW and make them findable with the onboard scanner, just add a scan group called "belts". It's simple, won't make finding the belts very hard and nerfs the macros.

Ahhhahaha I LIKE IT! that would be sweet, even if they didnt move the belts it would put a damp on the macroers, at least for a while.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2008.12.14 22:25:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Kalderion Mar

BTW, remove belts from the overview NOW and make them findable with the onboard scanner, just add a scan group called "belts". It's simple, won't make finding the belts very hard and nerfs the macros.

Ahhhahaha I LIKE IT! that would be sweet, even if they didnt move the belts it would put a damp on the macroers, at least for a while.



And of course give the mining specialist ships a bonus to scanning for these belts.


Ashundi silver
Windrose Research
Posted - 2008.12.15 14:34:00 - [129]
 

something like "reduces scan time for the belt catagory by 100 seconds per level" starting at 600 seconds?

Elora Danzik
Caldari
Idiots In Spaceships
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.12.23 21:09:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Ancy Denaries
2. Asteroids will cease being of different types.
You will no longer see "Veldspar", "Scordite" or "Arkonor" roids when warping to a belt. All you will see is "Asteroid". You will have to use sophisticated scanning equipment to survey the asteroids to find out what is inside it, as well as what composition the roid has.

3. Asteriods will probably be composited.
No longer will a roid contain just ONE ore type. You can find roids with 10% veldspar, 15% scordite, 45% kernite and 20% gneiss.



Perhaps the "normal" belts work on the same principle but they have more waste. IE 50% veld 10% scodite 5% prox and the reset is junk.

If you don't deep core mine and target specific ores you get the correspondig ratio of minerals and waste when refining.

That way a new player "could" focus on veld and make money more quickly.

just a thought not completely thought through.

Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2008.12.24 01:18:00 - [131]
 

It occurs to me that the new tech III thing will impact on the mining changes.

I mean we are all assuming that the hulk is the ultimate ship. Maybe we need to think that specific ship combinations created specifically to mine rings or flying roids, tank and mine etc might be what they are thinking.

What I am saying is that the hulk is a generalist mining ship and the new high yield mining sites might need ships tailored to suit those environments. IE miners may need to specialise their ships and their skilling to exploit the new sites.

I do think CCP will leave some more standard belts around for those who like to mine and do other stuff at the same time and as a stepping stone for those less skilled.

F'nr
Posted - 2008.12.31 05:19:00 - [132]
 

"If they make the new mining system as 'exciting' as the current exploration system, then I will be forced to visit the CCP offices with an axe*.

*Assuming I get it through customs."

remember this line..."It's for Ice Fishing"LaughingLaughingLaughingyou will get to keep it.... GL
ugh

Owlynn Ryddlin
Fatal and The rabbit
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.12.31 13:20:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: F'nr
"If they make the new mining system as 'exciting' as the current exploration system, then I will be forced to visit the CCP offices with an axe*.

*Assuming I get it through customs."

remember this line..."It's for Ice Fishing"LaughingLaughingLaughingyou will get to keep it.... GL
ugh


Just a suggestion: Buy it after you make it into the country, saves you the trouble with customs :P

Jokes aside, Id really love to see some of those ideas implemented, and while some of them do seem like an overcomplication, Im welcoming any change to current boring miners life. Any change at all... Very Happy


Arco Dusk
Gallente
2 Men and a Hulk
Posted - 2008.12.31 19:10:00 - [134]
 

Mining with two accounts, each with a Hulk, makes it a little more interesting. Well, maybe not interesting, but it keeps you a little more busy. I am still considering buying an Orca just for something different if nothing else.


Kryptiq
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.01.02 12:20:00 - [135]
 

Some of the changes seem great however this will also GREATLY increase the time it takes for a newer player to become a miner. Lastly there is a reason I don't do exploration, if scanning down belts will be similar well then i'm letting 5 accounts expire and sticking to missions.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.01.02 12:56:00 - [136]
 

I think composite asteroids make a lot of sense, and would, in that single change, help a lot of problems discussed here. Instead of having Veldspar and Scordite asteroids, we instead just have Asteroids. Those asteroids can be made up of any varying amounts of Ore. This makes more sense from a realism/common sense perspective. It also can be relatively transparent to the average miner. A basic miner would pull in a rounded mix of ores, proportional to the mix present in the rock. A Modulated miner would pull in a higher percentage of the specialized ore, and less of the chaff. More emphasis would be placed on scouting and surveying the belts, to find the richer asteroids, but this would be no means become NECESSARY.

Daemien Murdoc
Posted - 2009.01.05 03:31:00 - [137]
 

As dedicated miner im happy to see CCP making mining more interesting. However, everybody here seems to be talking about how Exhumers needs bit more specialized gear etc. Also, as a new ship, Orca gets lots attention so im try to raise little question about the Rorqual. I just recently got one, and its my first capital ship. But it seems so broken.
1. Scanner bonuses? Completely useless imo
2. What is Capital tractor beam for? T1 hauler or Orca can do the trick just fine
3. Drone damage/hp bonus? Ok, its Gallente ship so it makes little sense in that way. But this bonus has very little use since Rorqual is not supposed to engage combat
4. Shield Transporter bonus? Would be good for repping Hulks, but then again who fields Rorqual at belts

With fittings and rigs its almost 2b ship. So fielding it at the belts would be almost as ratting in a dread.

Has CCP stated that they are looking about the Rorqual? If mining gets facelift it would have some affect to the Rorqual too?

Calleb
Posted - 2009.01.05 08:20:00 - [138]
 

in theory i fully approve of making mining a little more interesting but care has to be made to enable even the very noob get a slice of the action. There has to be balance to allow someone right out of the box to get to an endless veld belt for example (easy to acheive with deadspace I would think).

Also there has to be some way to cater for the well trained solo miner who mines with just 1 account (yes there are some people doing this) to make mining worth there while.

Past this - top end mining with large gangs can be as complex as needed - as long as the rewards balance against the risk.

Kronos Velmar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.01.07 01:03:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Aiden Bismuth
Originally by: Ancy Denaries


7. Random events in roid belts.
Random events will be introduced such as exploding asteroids, tactical environments, gas clouds and the like. There was even talk of having roids flying around that you will have to "chase" and avoid.



I hope this gets shelved. Have you seen how fast a mining barge/exhumer moves?. And now you have to dodge, and chase, unstable roids?.
Regards,

AB


I'm also apprehensive of this one just because as you said, barges and exumers are painfully slow moving and allign like a pig (as they should). Further to that, when mining in low/null sec space you should always position yourself so that you can make a quick escape if a hostile warps in on you. Getting stuck in amongst the 'roids is a virtually guaranteed death. While I can agree with measures to reduce AFK & Macro mining, I'm not thrilled about a game mechanism that has a high probability of getting me killed because I'm stuck in the asteroid field. (Yea I know, this is a more realistic alternative, but still...)
Quote:
null

Brugar
Posted - 2009.01.07 18:01:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Squasar
For the idea of random ores being mined and part of it filling the hold with crap, that's just plain bull. Why would we mine if half or more of our hold will sell for 0.0001isk/unit killing any kind of profit rating.


This is a great idea. Why wouldn't you just jetcan the crap stuff and continue to hold the good stuff? Just one more step to make it more active and macro miners would be getting filled with crap. Hence dropping their sales a lot while real miners are the ones making the cash.

Making a macro to jetcan the crap would be a pain in the butt since the roids will be dropping all types of ore. The macro wouldn't know which icon is the crap stuff.

Ayki
Posted - 2009.01.07 20:08:00 - [141]
 

I have watched the responses on this thread for awhile and find a few issues surrounding the hypothetical changes to be discomforting. Basically... mining is a means by which we enable manufacturing and for many of us is not an end in and of itself. That said, anything that constricts the ability to produce refined ore will burden manufacturing and reduce its total output assuming labor remains unchanged. I really am distressed with that one. More complexity will mean more labor to achieve the same result which to me is objectionable. As to making it more difficult by requiring more in the way of qualifications, this is about the desire for exclusionary membership to a mining opportunity and is NOT about making the game more interesting which I think is very wrong headed. As to the idea that miners are all out there in frigates except for fleets in 0.0 that have battleship escorts... none of that is so. Alot of the miners running covetors or hulks have second accounts with haulers and alt tab between two instances of Eve which will keep you awake without inventing further distractions. As to 0.0... well good luck getting that battleship escort.... which would by why roids in 0.0 can grow to a large size.... I'm all for making the game more interesting but I think this is headed in the wrong direction.

Enwyn
Posted - 2009.01.07 20:39:00 - [142]
 

With all these change , EMT will be obsolete .. I'll need to rewrite a new tool :D All my previous work in the basket YARRRR!!

Jeanette Plato
Caldari
Amargosa Observatory
Zzz
Posted - 2009.01.07 21:55:00 - [143]
 

This all sounds fun but very complicated and it seems to me that it will take quite some time to implement. In the mean time, we could make some very simple changes to bring mining back into balance like it used to be, while all the details of this new system get worked out.

Agent Skully
Posted - 2009.01.08 12:08:00 - [144]
 

Watched the Fanfest videos, read all these posts.

Some really cool ideas for the "evolution" of mining, but like some of you I am wondering about the potential for unnecessarily complex implementation and especially the unforeseen side effects that will no doubt crop up. Devs need to keep the "KISS" principle firmly in mind here.

I have no doubt that the upcoming T3 ships release and the, as yet, proposed changes in mining will overlap/interconnect on some industrial level.

That, however, is where I see the greatest potential for nasty side effects or potential exploits missed in QA testing (had enough of those lately, right?) and, inevitably, a few "nerfs" down the road.

Rock on. Cool

Becham
Infestation.
Posted - 2009.01.08 18:12:00 - [145]
 

Mining can't be improved by making it so you have a hard time getting the ores you need, have to warp out more frequently or lose ships in gas clouds, can't find the belts, yadda yadda. That will only lower your yields. Sorry, but until there is a way to make watching the mining laser beam on the rock more interesting, it can't be improved in the end.

Morg nThorg
Posted - 2009.01.09 15:20:00 - [146]
 

What I havent heard anyone talk about yet is how bad those of us who have taken the time to get all T2 Crystals are gonna get screwed by this un-named asteroid and multiple ores per roid thing. I have 2 accounts, both are in God Hulks, one just finished Orca training. Whats the advantage of all that training for T2 crystals if A> we dont know what is in the rock and B> if were going to get crap that takes up M3.
If CCP really wants to push the action out to low/null sec, there needs to be a new mining ship, that can take a beating without dropping a billion or so in named and T2 mods, and it needs to be able to hit back. 5 T2 medium drones work for most space, down to about .3 or so, but send them after a PvPer and he is going to laugh at you. Even the hulk has a cardboard tank at the end of the day. Most miners I know about have thier local windows open at all times, with one finger hovering over the Get-the-hell-out-of-here button, if we now have to divert attention away from our protection to keep track of whats coming in to the hold from what amounts to blind mining, its going to be a bigger PITA.
About the only changes I would like to see are making mining "streaming" as in instead of getting all the ore in one big glop, you get a fraction of the yield per second or 5 or whatever. This reduces the click frenzy when you have a rock with less then a full cycle left in it. I would also like to see a jump capable miner. make it a modified retriever, small cargo, etc. make some of the deeper, darker sections of low/null space more accessable. Also forces people who have sov in a system to actively keep an eye on them, lest a few miners pop in, get some of the rarer mins, and then pop back out.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.01.11 11:26:00 - [147]
 

The composite roids ideas I've seen all still hold crystals in high regard. They also have NOT made it so you 'don't know what is in the roid, but instead, you have to scan down what is in the roid, and choose the one that has the highest concentration of your target ore. THIS sounds like the way prospecting is supposed to be.

if done right, it shouldn't be that hard to use. Survey scanner, instead of showing a grouped list of ores by type, shows a table, each row being a roid, and each column being an ore. Sort the table by the Ore you want, and start at the top.

Agent Skully
Posted - 2009.01.11 12:05:00 - [148]
 

If it was going to be prospecting in any, dare I say, realistic method, miners would have to A) take samples of ore, B) run around to Assay/Mining Agents to have the samples tested and C) wait for results.

I'm all for hidden belts and stuff like that.

What I don't think we need is complicated ores. If CCP wants to introduce a new roid with a new mineral in it to justify some aspect of advanced materials construction (aka T3) then just introduce an entirely new roid with the simple, fluffy reason that up until now it's not an ore that anyone found a use for, so was normally left off of Scan Databanks.

Think "Green Arisite"... same idea. Worthless, except for a mission or two, but it already exists.

KISS principle folks -- no need to re-invent the wheel here.

Cool

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.01.14 00:30:00 - [149]
 

I actually think the composite roids are simpler... if you just want to mine out the belt, you target and mine, get a mix of rocks, etc. But, if you CHOOSE to focus on a particular ore, you can spend the effort and survey it out and get what you want.

Antoher side affect of this is most of the composite roid ideas, since the belt can get some flavor by roid composition, instead of field make-up, can be reduced in overall rock count. This would 1: reduce lag, which everyone likes, and 2: reduce laser switching, which is also cool as hell.

Warrio
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.01.14 04:29:00 - [150]
 

Anything the works to break and render useless the painfully easy to make macro miner programs is a great advance in Eve. This would, imo, bring in a new age of "PvP" with mining actually being a competitive and profitable corp effort rather than a lone random character named "Kissmoon235" or some such just moving back and forwards, belt to station all day.


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