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Krogo
Gallente
Mercurialis Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.15 08:10:00 - [211]
 

Once again people, instead of modifying the way missiles hit ships, why not look at Electronic Countermeasures. There is one countermeasure already available for turrets, and it works rather well. Why not something of the same type with missiles.

Lets say you have a Electronic Missile Scrambler that has a 15% chance (techI) of making you “evade” the missile by having the said missile hit an electronic ghost. Coupled with a skill in Electronic Missile Countermeasures would give you at level 5 with the module (and only works if the module is fitted on the ship) 35% chance with a tech I module to evade all form of missiles and torps sent against you.

This idea doesn’t “nerf” missiles and torpedoes but gives the player the choice to mount a module for defence against missiles. In the end each time a missile is suppose to hit you the server checks to see if your module managed to trick the missiles making it explode but without damaging you.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.15 09:02:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Krogo
Once again people, instead of modifying the way missiles hit ships, why not look at Electronic Countermeasures. There is one countermeasure already available for turrets, and it works rather well. Why not something of the same type with missiles.

Lets say you have a Electronic Missile Scrambler that has a 15% chance (techI) of making you “evade” the missile by having the said missile hit an electronic ghost. Coupled with a skill in Electronic Missile Countermeasures would give you at level 5 with the module (and only works if the module is fitted on the ship) 35% chance with a tech I module to evade all form of missiles and torps sent against you.

This idea doesn’t “nerf” missiles and torpedoes but gives the player the choice to mount a module for defence against missiles. In the end each time a missile is suppose to hit you the server checks to see if your module managed to trick the missiles making it explode but without damaging you.



There allready extist such a module, its called Meta Rocket Launcher, with with its wonderfully low fitting requirements take out more than 1/3 of incoming missiles :D What would happen with such a skill and module is that BS coudl fit them as well. There are no restriction but fitting reqs that keeps modules from appearing on different ship classes. If this module was supposed to be used on a frig, then a battleship could also fit it. Thus it wouldnt work...

Eyeris
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.15 16:16:00 - [213]
 

Look , honestly I see where this is going.

TomB wants battleships to kill battleships , cruisers -- cruisers and frigates -- frigates.

Instead of all this nerfing this and "improving" that , why dont they just make it so that battleships can only lock battleships , cruisers-cruisers and frigates-frigates.

Problem solved ?

/sarcasm off

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2004.07.15 23:13:00 - [214]
 

Or just remove all ships from the game bar frigates, the whole thinking of small only hits small ,large only hits large is completely ****ing stupid.

Turrets nerfed first, then missiles, then drones, one of three so far and I have moved from Megathron to a Raven, then Raven will be useless like Mega and I will probably pull the dust sheet off a Dom, then they'll nerf drones and I'll cancel my 3 accounts.

W00T gotta love the CCP nerf bat, it is almighty.

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2004.07.15 23:46:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Cruz on 15/07/2004 23:48:16
TombB read my sig before you change anything with missiles!

And what are you guys complaining about... I love the new turret changes!

Admiral IceBlock
Caldari
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2004.07.16 12:38:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 16/07/2004 12:39:43
stop trying to hijack the thread little one..

Yggdrassil
Amarrian Missionaires
Posted - 2004.07.17 13:01:00 - [217]
 

Bit complexed suggestion... But here it goes.

1. Add a variable on the missiles that determines how accurate they are (HitAcc).

2. When missile approaches the target, use this variable to determine wether missile hits or not, in conjunction with Signature Radius.

3. Use this variable to adjust damage.


Possible formulas:

Light missile: HitAcc: 8000
Heavy Missile: HitAcc: 300
Cruise Missile: HitAcc 600
Torpedo: HitAcc 100

Calculations of missiles chances of hitting ceptor with 20 signature radius:

Light Missile: ToHitChance: (8000/20) = 400% := ALWAYS hit.
Heavy Missile: TohitChance: ( 300/20) = 15% := Rarely hit.
Cruise Missile:ToHitChance: ( 600/20) = 30% := some hits
Torpedo: ToHitChance: ( 100/20) = 5% := Wasted isk:)

(Should probably used more time in "tuning" those stats on the missiles - but that's not MY work :P )

Possible, use the ToHitChances to "tune" damage... More than 200% chance of hitting := 1.5 modifier on damage.
Less than 33% := 60% damage. Less than 15% chance to hit: 20% damage. Double penalty on using "wrong" size missiles though..


Venril
Legionari
Frontal Impact
Posted - 2004.07.19 06:26:00 - [218]
 

Tomb I believe your missle formula would be perfectly fine providing you showed up with some armor peircing warheads. That project the explosive force of the missle strait ahead.

Some type of armor piercing ammo though would be nice as well if you were going to implement that system so that a it wouldn't only be missle users favoring haveing to make the enemy fly a distant to reach the target.

With that being said. Turrets still need some love! (at least against NPCS)

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.19 11:19:00 - [219]
 

I like the proposed missle change Tomb. Can you take off the MWD sig increase though? Very Happy

Jozif
Gallente
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2004.07.19 13:28:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Jozif on 19/07/2004 14:00:17
Originally by: Nebuli
Or just remove all ships from the game bar frigates, the whole thinking of small only hits small ,large only hits large is completely ****ing stupid.

Turrets nerfed first, then missiles, then drones, one of three so far and I have moved from Megathron to a Raven, then Raven will be useless like Mega and I will probably pull the dust sheet off a Dom, then they'll nerf drones and I'll cancel my 3 accounts.

W00T gotta love the CCP nerf bat, it is almighty.



U have true Mate....

It is getting wrong when the first pacthes coming to"set guns tracking speed" From this point this game day by day unplayable. I have to 4 account, but im thinking to leaving from this game. Im just not understand what want reach the dev team. Want to use in my bs civilian gattling gun, to make demage against frigs??? Or using in 8 hislot 8 diferent weapon??? And now the missiles.... Put to raven "funnymissilelauncher" to hit frigates??


It is a joke.

The best way to set evrything to default, like before the pacth.



JoCool
Caldari
Posted - 2004.07.19 15:57:00 - [221]
 


"A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it." - ActiveX

Scoobee
Caldari
Aqua Teen Hunger Force
Posted - 2004.07.19 16:58:00 - [222]
 

Those ideas are topnotch...Amazing! thats all I can say...other than that im speechless...

Morikai Acler
Caldari
The Whitesands Consortium
Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
Posted - 2004.07.19 20:42:00 - [223]
 

Since my last post on here I've been thinking a lot about this. From what I see in the game, there are quite a few things that aren't much different from my old game EnB. Agility pretty much directly translates into the Maneuverability stat that they had there. Ships had a built in turn maneuverability/missile defense stat. Larger objects had a lower agility/manuever/missile defense rating. And the missiles themselves had the same ratings on them, was just done differently because of the way the tech level system worked there. In that system, missiles were considered as another type of turret. There were of course a few flaws there, because of the way damage worked.

It might almost be better if they were treated as another type of turret. The only difference being, that whether a missile hits or not is based on the agility of the target versus the agility of the missile. Instead of tracking speed like on guns. This would make ships like frigates that have high base agility fairly survivably against larger missiles, without the use of mwd. Which would allow the ability to raise their velocity, which is needed very badly at the moment, without making frigates useless. And, it wouldn't hamper heavy missiles on cruisers all that much. But it would make it so cruise missiles wouldn't be so devastating against frigates in pvp, and its not really an issue as is for torps since they're so slow.

A change like that would make it very worthwhile for anyone to max out Spaceship command, and evasive manuevering skills for missile avoidance. As it is right now as far as I can tell, the only use for anyone maxing out evasive is to get interceptor skills, and I don't hear of too many maxxing out spaceship command.

I don't know if what I said makes much sense to anyone else. But as I look at the way things are going it may be one of the better options for missiles.

Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.20 21:51:00 - [224]
 

My goodness, their must be few missile users posting in this thread, for it seems everyone is smiling and laying down like the worst type of fruitloop. 32dmg vs a frigate, lmao.

Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.20 23:02:00 - [225]
 

This move is a big nerf for the Caldari. If small missiles are required to effectively counter small ships, is the equivalent in turrets, such as cruiser sized autocannons to be scaled down to light missile size damage? The cargo requirements of missiles to counter the various resistance types in pvp and pve is much greater for light missiles, which do insignificant dmg, compared to their bigger brothers, compared to the cargo requirements of Hybrid and Projectiles, and definitely laser turrets. Using large weapons against frigates is a much simpler affair, and one type of ammo(missile) is all that is needed to be effective, so please keep it this way.

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2004.07.20 23:33:00 - [226]
 

MISSILE CHANGES ON ENTROPY NOWExclamationExclamationExclamation

enjoy Very Happy


Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.20 23:42:00 - [227]
 

I dont even have my Raven yet, and it is nerfed into oblivion. Lets make the entire Caldari race be called 'support folk'. Or the 'little bihacs' would be more appropriate.

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2004.07.21 00:18:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Detaurus
I dont even have my Raven yet, and it is nerfed into oblivion. Lets make the entire Caldari race be called 'support folk'. Or the 'little bihacs' would be more appropriate.


you are a shame to your race!!!

Im flying a raven all the time! And yes I am caldari! And actually these changes are needed!!! no way out!!! I am just ubber leet in the raven = imba = makes no sense at all

this change will open the doors to see frigs without mwds again !!! mwd wont be a "no brainer" module anymore!!!


Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.21 00:38:00 - [229]
 

do not insult me




Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2004.07.21 03:46:00 - [230]
 

Pay no attention to Detaurus, he knows nothing.

Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.21 05:36:00 - [231]
 

Begone fool

You are not welcome on this forum.

Any and all that oppose me have been opposed

Now dash off to the nearest tyrant of infancy and pray to him with your self righteous supplications, then continue your impotent attempts to destroy me in game.

the appellation 'fool' may freely be applied to any and all others who deem my opinions unworthy.


Yseult Atreus
Posted - 2004.07.21 21:35:00 - [232]
 

Here's an idea. Treat missiles like real missiles which 'see' forward in a cone. If the locked target gets outside the cone the missile loses its lock and starts a programmed search pattern for a new valid (non-IFF) target. Big missiles turn slowly and fast agile ships can escape the cone easily. BSs? Not so much.

Sorry, but the idea of big bang doesn't hurt Frigate cos the frigate is smaller? I can only suspend my disbelief just so much. I'm sure it would sort a problem for you but the WTF factor would go through the roof.

'Nother idea. Flares, decoys, launchable jammers etc.

Thats all I've got for now.



Arud
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2004.07.22 16:11:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Yggdrassil
Bit complexed suggestion... But here it goes.

1. Add a variable on the missiles that determines how accurate they are (HitAcc).

2. When missile approaches the target, use this variable to determine wether missile hits or not, in conjunction with Signature Radius.

3. Use this variable to adjust damage.


Possible formulas:

Light missile: HitAcc: 8000
Heavy Missile: HitAcc: 300
Cruise Missile: HitAcc 600
Torpedo: HitAcc 100

Calculations of missiles chances of hitting ceptor with 20 signature radius:

Light Missile: ToHitChance: (8000/20) = 400% := ALWAYS hit.
Heavy Missile: TohitChance: ( 300/20) = 15% := Rarely hit.
Cruise Missile:ToHitChance: ( 600/20) = 30% := some hits
Torpedo: ToHitChance: ( 100/20) = 5% := Wasted isk:)

(Should probably used more time in "tuning" those stats on the missiles - but that's not MY work :P )

Possible, use the ToHitChances to "tune" damage... More than 200% chance of hitting := 1.5 modifier on damage.
Less than 33% := 60% damage. Less than 15% chance to hit: 20% damage. Double penalty on using "wrong" size missiles though..



those calculations of yours are fubar

lets say I have a battleship that has a sig radius of 750

against light missiles 8000/750=10 soo.. 10% chance with teh fubar calc

so the bigger the sig radius the less chance of being hit

Na'Axin
Naxbar
Posted - 2004.07.22 22:10:00 - [234]
 

hey TomB, when are mining lasers going to be nerfed, cuz I think it is quite overpowered that they ALWAYS hit.

agrizla
Posted - 2004.07.24 01:02:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Yseult Atreus
Here's an idea. Treat missiles like real missiles which 'see' forward in a cone.


If you want to enter into the world of realism then con-scan missiles are pretty archaic. Most of the more modern missiles can acquire (and re-acquire) targets within a 180-270 degree arc from the missile head - ie they can to some extent "see backwards" which is useful for slower missiles (< Mach 2). Likewise the old image that most people have of a mechanical antenna is way way way out of date. It's a simple array which is steered (instantly - or within microseconds anyway) electrically.

Launchable jammers/decoys should be on CCPs "to do" list. I suspect we'll never see them as the server cluster wouldn't (IMHO) be able to handle it.

Nilit
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.07.24 14:23:00 - [236]
 

Quote:
TomB :
Because an explosion of 400m3 shouldn't damage a frigate for 400m3 Rolling Eyes



Give me a valid reason why the hell not ? Confused


Detaurus
Posted - 2004.07.25 08:35:00 - [237]
 

I am really not sure how many of you are aware how big a nerf this is for the caldari. To Mine in dangerous space, The caracal, with pathetic drone space, must sacrifice its heavy missile slots for smaller missiles. No such requirement is placed upon those of EQUAL or GREATER firepower, such as the Thorax, which has a drone bay (post nerf) 5X the size of The Caracal. Moa? Well it only has 2 missile bays, so it must either sacrifice either of them, or its turrets to a smaller size to accomodate accurate hits on frigates(according to the suspected upcoming nerfs). The Moa drone bay is also pathetic. The argument that the Gallente are supposed to be the drone kings is true. And The caldari are supposed to rule equally with missiles, but they wont. in fact, to combat Frigates, The Thorax must sacrifice not a single huge gun.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.07.25 09:07:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Detaurus
I am really not sure how many of you are aware how big a nerf this is for the caldari. To Mine in dangerous space, The caracal, with pathetic drone space, must sacrifice its heavy missile slots for smaller missiles. No such requirement is placed upon those of EQUAL or GREATER firepower, such as the Thorax, which has a drone bay (post nerf) 5X the size of The Caracal. Moa? Well it only has 2 missile bays, so it must either sacrifice either of them, or its turrets to a smaller size to accomodate accurate hits on frigates(according to the suspected upcoming nerfs). The Moa drone bay is also pathetic. The argument that the Gallente are supposed to be the drone kings is true. And The caldari are supposed to rule equally with missiles, but they wont. in fact, to combat Frigates, The Thorax must sacrifice not a single huge gun.

Have you... visited the fact that Caldari aren't the great big mining race out there?
Have you tried mining in groups?
Have you considered (on the Thorax issue) that:
a) Drones are going to get nerfed (hopefully CCP will realise how pathetic damage drones do to their intended target, though)
and
b) Many BlastRaxx' fit light neutron blasters to be able to fit all they need. The damage of Light Neutrons is only marginally worse than Heavy Electrons. Tracking is a lot better.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2004.07.26 08:03:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 26/07/2004 08:06:14
Missile cones would serious goof things up as the ship would always ahve to face it's target.

and more imortantly it's back to complex delivery, and that should be avoided at all costs.

Other thing that really needs attention TomB is torp effects they need a serious nerf, with the inane ammount of them flying around in most battles and them being such large effects it creates massive slowdown, and should be avoided too, and similar measures for drones in some fashion, perhaps introducing fighter wings to reduce number of objects without nerfing their effectiveness, as well as perhaps slowing down missile ROF, but increasing dmg being careful not to cross the threashold where they become too pwrful each shot or to be nerf'd by defenders, or other weapons grps.

BIRDofPREY
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.07.26 15:05:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: TomB



2. Shock wave damage (kinetic only?) that uses same calculation from the physic engine as when collision impact takes place, only the collision impact uses mass * velocity vs. mass * velocity in the direction that the collision impact takes place. In this case only the direction velocity of the target vs. where the missile explodes would be used.




The word "physics" should never be used in EVE...


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