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Storm Mage
Amarr
Forgotten Souls
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
Posted - 2004.07.08 17:49:00 - [151]
 

My thought to counterbalane the weak missle hits is to implement a missle wrecking shot idea so that now and then you hit a damage shot way over the max missle damage (maybe double).

Ogmios
Gallente
Posted - 2004.07.08 18:22:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: TomB

1. I'm not a missile or explosion expert, any feedback that will be posted with more knowledge than I have is most welcome.



IANAAE (I am not an aerospace engineer), so I have no idea how good this is or how relevant it might be to games, but this book and the related products seems like it might be interesting.


Tactical Missile Design


"This is the first textbook offered for tactical missile design. It is oriented toward the needs of aerospace engineering students, missile engineers, and missile program managers. It is intended to provide a basis for including tactical missile design as part of the aerospace engineering curriculum, providing new graduates with the knowledge they will need in their careers."


Conventional Warhead Systems Physics and Engineering Design


"Direct hit, warhead design, and fragmentation are comprehensively discussed for the first time in print. High strain rate, explosives, thermodynamics, heat transfer, chemistry, penetration mechanics, statistics, dynamics, and finite element equations are also covered extensively in this single, compact volume. The book contains over 2000 mathematical equations with more than 500 figures that give today’s warhead engineers new ideas and knowledge in warhead design."

Mr Popov
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2004.07.08 23:11:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Perry
Originally by: ArchAngle
Edited by: ArchAngle on 08/07/2004 12:13:09
One of my primary concern is the way the game is being balanced its almost like there is no reward for palying long term its like everthing is being geared at noobs all experanced players are being penilised fro playing long time im proud of my skill gap i worked hard and invested many months in train my skills up higher. with all the changes its gettign harder and harder to be independant unless you want to be a carebear and hang in empire all day and mine. First it was guns now missles shure we get more powergride for guns but why do i even ned more power i got to use frig guns and launchers ona bs it wouldnt be so bad if there was a large launcher or gun thats built for anti frig. but as time goes on this is my perdiction of the future. im gona use a mega for my exaple a mega fitted with 4 425' 2 light nutrons one 150mm s rail and 1 cruse / seige launcher im not gona go in to the details of the mids and lows as they are not revelent here. now in your cargo hold you will have 250 rounds of antimater S for close range frig 200 rounds of iridum S for medum range frig duties 500 rounds of large antimater for closre range bs 300 rounds of iridum or uranium for mid range and 100-200 light em missles 100-200 thermal light missles or what ever type is aproit then on to large missles get my drift next thing you know you will have 500-600m3 of amo in your hold just to kill rats and have to switch all the types of amo on the fly every time you start a new spawn and evey time they change range and even if you by the grace of god get the rats killed where is the loot gona go as you have no room because of the amo get my drift and even if you only change amo when absulty nessary you will still have to change every gun 3-4 times a fight jut to hit desent damage even if you even hit.90% of you amo gets blown in to space.lets see here in a hour you kill 3-4 spawns of varign types you spend 15 min per spawn so that means you have reloaded your guns 12 times at least x7 guns thast abought 2 minuts from jut changing amo types not to mention reloadign your guns and launchers i think if made my point its great that your giving ships a purpous but making us haul around a lot of differnt types of amo and missles and fit a bunch of differnt guns is crazy why not just lock the gun type to the ship and make new wepons for each task or adapt the low end guns for anti frig and cruser so we can cary one sise of amo anf a multi purpious launcher would be nice depending on ship class its just my thoughts cause it funny to be fitted for anti frig kill the frigs and get ****d by the bs's or kill the bs's and get ****d by frigs. do fig


Okay the first one who finds a dot (".") in this post gets a price. Wink




the very end:

Originally by: ArchAngle
frigs. do fig


so what's my price? Wink

Exousia
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.09 06:24:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Exousia on 09/07/2004 06:25:57
I have no problem with large a turrets having problems tracking smallers, faster ships.
But a 1400mm howitzer should be able to hit a cruiser without to much truouble, as long as it's not orbiting to close or generaly moving to fast for the 1400mm's tracking.

But I DO have a problem with large warheads/missiles not causing serious damage to smaller targets IF they hit.
The bigger the missiles, the more damage, simple.
And I do have a problem with the fact that missiles in game do not have splash/area damage, because missiles do cause shockwaves and splash damage.

Smile

Kalarin
Posted - 2004.07.09 08:03:00 - [155]
 

Laughing
You have a problems with missiles and no problem with guns. Laughing Most of ppls have a problems with guns and NO problems with missile. Missiles now fast, cheap, hit ALL times and do A MUCH of damage.

I have a Tempest and I have A MUCH of problems to hit NPC crusers for example. At yesterday I have a fight with 2 Arch Angel cruisers. My 4x800mm miss most of times (distance 18-20km) and if it hit, then hit 30-40 Twisted Evil. I spend may be 500-700 Phased Plasma L to killing of these NPC. Can you have the situation with Raven? Mad

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.09 08:29:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Kalarin
Laughing
Missiles now fast, cheap, hit ALL times and do A MUCH of damage.
Mad


Fast: atm nope, sux really badly when they tag around at 1600ms, npcs can travel faster than that.

Cheap? Hardly think so. I dont make any money killing frigs with Cruise Missiles, and taking out a NPC battleship, will cost me at least 100k isk,

Hit all the time? Have you used defenders or Smartbombs lately? Two small rocketlaunchers with defenders can neutralize two siege launchers, as defenders seems to be fireing at the last launched missile and not the closest one. VERY unbalanced, as turretusers just "fill up" their high slots with launchers that now can be used for Frigate Defence (Light missiles) and to screw over any missileplatform (Defenders).

Its actually pretty rediculous atm... But I look for the patch to fix this. Ravens cant use smartbombs due to blowing up its own missiles, cant fit any more launchers for frig / missile defence, cant fit tech 2 Heavy Nosferatus even with 5 pdu2's (what is that for TomB? Most important module for a tank Raven as its PDU cant supply enough cap recharge and you take it away from us? with 5 power diagnostics? I have no room for WCS or Damge mods either)

Kalarin
Posted - 2004.07.09 08:46:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Kalarin on 09/07/2004 08:53:22
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Fast: atm nope, sux really badly when they tag around at 1600ms, npcs can travel faster than that.


Is ANY large turret will hit at these situations? But are you can have ANY problems with NPC (crusers for example) at 10-30km from you?

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

Cheap? Hardly think so. I dont make any money killing frigs with Cruise Missiles, and taking out a NPC battleship, will cost me at least 100k isk,


Laughing May be you think what I make a profit with spending of 500 Phased Plasma L on 2 NPC crusers? Laughing I will run out of ammo very fast if I will try to hunt NPC with this sort of "guns".Evil or Very Mad But you will kill these rats VERY quickly.

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

Hit all the time? Have you used defenders or Smartbombs lately? Two small rocketlaunchers with defenders can neutralize two siege launchers, as defenders seems to be fireing at the last launched missile and not the closest one.


Than I must to fit 3-4 small rocket launchers with defenders for having a some protection from Raven? Laughing Is this battleship will have any use? :)

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.09 09:13:00 - [158]
 

Well, I thoughth we were discussing upcoming changes how they will affect the game, not how it currently is. I was just pointing out a few things.

I dont really know what you have fitted on your ship, cus with my Apoc at least I have no problems hitting cruisers down to 10km, I could even kill them at shorter distances than that with my Megabeams. And if you manage to spend that many rounds killing a cruiser, then you need to look at the transverse speed you have towards the cruisers. With Cruisers at 10-30km they die very fast on my Apoc. Even frigates dies in my optimal.

And you actually could fit faster tracking guns, tracking enhancers etc on your ship, versus a Raven has no option of helping its missiles. You can fit heavy missile launcher for use against the cruisers and frigs, Raven can not without lowering its main weapons versus you wont have to.

Regarding to your defender launchers. You can take away 1/3 of its offensive capabilities and a huge fitting proportion using two small launchers which gives you defence against Frigates and Cruisers to some extent, without giving up any offensive capabilities as you really couldnt fit any more main guns here anyway. You get a huge defence against Ravens giving up nothing, and you get a frigate defence as well... One rocetlauncher gives a very nice defence against a Raven, sadly good actually.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.09 09:24:00 - [159]
 

TomB
Regarding Cruise missiles for hunting NPC's, a solution could maybe be as with guns. When you use large guns against frigates on distance, youre still able to hit them pretty well, at least I have no issues on my Apoc doing that. So, if you made missiles so that they do full damage outside a certain flightdistance it would still be able for Ravens to defend against Frigates and Cruisers before they get in close, without spending 1000000 isk doing it. (You still havent let us know what is in missiles to balance this extreme ammo cost, look at earlier post by me, Id appreciate an answer).

Effect of PVP with this, would be that as with guns, Frigates are vulnerable at distance where they are in optimal for the guns and would then be hit with full damage from Missiles as well, or a reduced damage, but not as reduced as at short ranges. At orbiting scrambling range, missiles could hit with the least damage as they then will be within this "activation" time, as that might be the way to implement it. It would also help on the fact that Missile platforms cant really fit any efficient missile defence when usig siege launchers.

Thought I still dont understand why not just let siege and cruise launcher launch smaller missiles as well, now that the proposed change is that CM's will hit for damage regardless of target's size. The only issue then is cost and cargospace. Easy way to balance it toward the right way. Drawback of using Siege launcher compared to smaller launchers like other Battleships will use (Arma and Domi got drone bays to handle the frigs and can use smartbombs as well), will come from its innate slow Rate of Fire. Its pretty balanced if you ask me.

Views please?

Kalarin
Posted - 2004.07.09 14:36:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
I dont really know what you have fitted on your ship, cus with my Apoc at least I have no problems hitting cruisers down to 10km, I could even kill them at shorter distances than that with my Megabeams.


I use 800mm. I can kill them also, but spending so much bullets for 2 crusers seems very bad. And I think that I can't hunt NPC crusers with this hit ratio and DoT.

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

And if you manage to spend that many rounds killing a cruiser, then you need to look at the transverse speed you have towards the cruisers.


But for Raven you don't need to think about of "transverse speen" at all. Than you have for example a possibily point Raven to safe point and if you have a problems - very quickly warp out. For other BS - no.

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

And you actually could fit faster tracking guns, tracking enhancers etc on your ship, versus a Raven has no option of helping its missiles.


Raven don't need these options :). Missiles hit most of times :).

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

You can fit heavy missile launcher for use against the cruisers and frigs, Raven can not without lowering its main weapons versus you wont have to.


Can you explain me that? Are you think what fitting at another BS heavy missile launcher will not "lowering its main weapon versus"? Raven has a bonus for missiles, another BS - not. What BS will nerf more after fitting of heavy missile launcher? Shocked

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2004.07.09 16:02:00 - [161]
 

How about this.

Missiles do x% basic damage and x% splash damage. Basic damage is applied to all ships equally. Splash damage depends on the size of the ship.

Some missiles are 100% basic damage, such as light missiles, and rockets.

Some missiles are 100% splash damage, such as Cruise missiles and Torpedoes.

Some missiles are 50% splash damage, such as heavy missiles.

(I know it breaks the RL styles of the different missile types, so what.)
(And if you dont want to bring back splash, call it piercing damage or something)

This system should sound familiar to some of you
Wink

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.09 16:07:00 - [162]
 

Erm.. I dont know what youre trying to discuss here?
I was merely trying to pointing out the fact that since you spend so many bullets, you must be doing something wrong since i can hit so much better than you with my Apocalypse. Either the transversal is too high, or you are usign the wrong ammo at the wrong distance.

My point with the Raven wasnt the fact that its not hitting and killing over time. But rather the cost of such a kill, and that there really is no need for Cruise Launchers and Siege Launchers not being able launch smaller missiles now, since the big ones will be able to hit anyway. The only difference is the cost issue...

When I talked about you being able to fit tracknig enhancers and such, im sorry if i wasnt clear enough, that was ment as you could increase ur damage against frigs and cruiser as youll track them better. Raven have no modules that can enhance its "tracking" and damage to frigs at any range. (dmg mods excluded) Point was that guns will do more and more damage to frigs the longer they are away, not so with missiles.

When it comes to fitting heavy and standard launchers: A Raven has 6 launchers slots which all need to be Siege Launchers for it to be able to kill a NPC Battleship, or player Battleships for that sake. Thus it can not fit any of the smaller launchers which then could be used as anti frig or anti missile defence. To fit such a module, it would have to remove a siege launcher, a main weapon, but you dont have to as you just fill up ur last high slots. Comprehend?

MrJordanIOI
Minmatar
The Lantern Mining Corporation
Posted - 2004.07.09 17:14:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: MrJordanIOI on 09/07/2004 18:21:26
Keep the rules the same, all the time. Don't change them every other patch.

It is getting increasingly hard to actually play with all this need to adapt going on.

Before you start "giving love" to something that actually works at least acceptable we d need the fixing of the following:

- connections/standings to NPc agents
- invisible roid fields
- server stability (yes its stable atm, but we re not through yet)
- lots of odd display bugs
- the SKILL bug, which seems to be there still
- a client memory leak causing CS lag
- bugged display on market / sell orders
- interceptors insurance
- getting stuck in stations for 5 minutes when undocking
- invisble haulers in the pirate ore scenario
Other players..please feel free to add to this list, as I could only spend 2 minutes of summing up bugs that lie around for some time now.

TOMB stop nerfing around, help fix current bugs.
This will let all of us take a breather and THEN you can start tweaking again !

You state you are not an expert on missiles, fine
Please give it some EXTRA thought then.
On a sidenote EVE has its one rules anyhow, so we might yet not be able to use RL to determine what is OK or not.

However changing the rules of this game more frequent every patch cycle seems to be very hard on a lot of players.

Thanks for reading and maybe even commenting on this

ArchAngle
Caldari
WalMart Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.09 20:38:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Grut
I dont like the idea of frigs & cruisers taking dmg from missiles at high speed, large guns give a miss so why shouldnt missiles?

Maybe some kind of trigger time would work, based on signal radius and combined with what you said about explosion radius earlier would work.

Something like;

UM heck no First of all a frig is a 100kisk peice of hardwear and as far as im concerned if they move fast enough they can get away from missles but for a frig to be neerly invincable is stupid why fly a high end ship at all lets all just fly frigs and go back to beta make things simple or beter yet do away with missles guns and npc's and well just all mine for ever. basicly atm missle physics is preety acrut (if you can out manver the missle you dotn get hurt ) maby just add soem missle counter measures to frigs maby a bit more agilty and maby a missle evasion skill or somthing or electronic missle jamming abiltys so the modual messes with t the missle logic and the missle misses or flyes off in to space. why change the whole physics system for missles as they are preety acrut atm.

torp trigger time 10000ms
torp explosion radius 400
frig signal radius 100

trigger time 10000/100 = 1 second, the frig has 1 second to move 400m to avoid being hit, if not it takes a fraction of the blast as previously described.

Light missiles would have alot smaller trigger time.

If your using signal radius for the above you could knock it out of later calcs, of course this would mean stationary frigs get hit by the full whack of dmg Twisted Evil but imo thats a nice counter to missiles not being able to hit frigs at range like guns.






ArchAngle
Caldari
WalMart Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.09 20:42:00 - [165]
 

Also a simple soultion for the raven is to remove the gun points from the raven and add 2 more launcher slots

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.09 21:42:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: ArchAngle
Also a simple soultion for the raven is to remove the gun points from the raven and add 2 more launcher slots


Woudl probably make it too strong dont you think? :) at least if it can fit 8 siege launchers

Krogo
Gallente
Mercurialis Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.09 21:48:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Krogo on 09/07/2004 21:51:04
I have the impression that not many of us believe that instead of changing missiles lets have a module plus skills that help "evade" the missle ei it detonates but does harm you because it hits your electronic ghost.

GSBarlan
Minmatar
Omega Enterprises
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2004.07.09 23:25:00 - [168]
 

Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes Lets get Serious here. Who CARES if it has a Dammage radius of 10,000,000m3??? What do u think is happening AT THE MIDDLE OF THE EXPLOSION???????? U wanna talk splash dammage, then nerf the Torp for that.

Look lets get an extreem example and a tiny example.

U drop a Nuke. The POI (point of impact), well lets face it, its GONE. Dammage decreases the farther u get from the POI. BUT THE POI IS GONE!Shocked Immagin thatRolling Eyes

Now for the tiny example.

U take a small firecraker place it under a ..... lets just say a large bug. Set it off and the bug is gone. Place another firecracker and put the same kinda bug 2 inches away and lite it. HEY!!! WHAT DO U KNOW! The little bugger Survived!!!! (abet with a powerfull headach no doubt)

So lets forget about velocities, blast radius (unless u want to talk about splash dammage within that radius), and all that other sillieness. When u get down to it the missle/torp/rocket is still HITTING the target!!!

And please, don't respond to this pointing out that it comes within [blank] m3 of the target before exploding. B/c if it did not have a POI then roughly anywhere from 5%-50% of the dammage would never reach the target in the first place, hense u could never theoretically GET the max dammage when using a radial dammage diagram.

British Knights
Posted - 2004.07.10 00:47:00 - [169]
 

Missile tracking needs to be fixed not damage, it just doesn't make any sense. If the missile hits you dead on it should do its full damage. If it explodes near you, you take less damage. The bigger missiles should just have a harder time tracking a smaller ship so the missile will be more apt to explode near it or miss it completely.

Pae Ir
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2004.07.10 01:09:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Pae Ir on 14/07/2004 15:14:34
Edited by: Pae Ir on 13/07/2004 15:39:35
Edited by: Pae Ir on 10/07/2004 01:56:17

Quote:

1. Fake "Area of Effect" explosion that uses signature radius and velocity of target to calculate damage, allowing minimization of the damage.


This is a good idea to be used in conjuction with an adjustment in the agility of the larger missles. Combat in Eve is mostly like combat under the water, signatures dictate detection and firing solutions. Using the same principles that current day missles use for tracking and guidence isn't ever going to work correctly. The agility needs to be adjusted on the heavies, cruises and the torps. On top of that, a torp and a cruise should have an area of effect similar to that of a smart bomb that has a degration of damage in it's falloff radius,

(mass/distance from impact in kilometers)/velocity (in m/s)+ sig radius = damage

Allow the pilots to set the distance for the missle to explode, such as 1km, 2km, 5km from target, etc. This gives players the choice of layering their cruises or torps into multiple explosions in a large radius either hitting multiple targets or allowing the torp or cruise to directly impact the target causing maximum damage.

Rockets as they stand right now are pretty good, light missles need to have their speed increased to 2000m/s,flight time slightly increased, agility increased, and the damage decreased by a small amount. Heavy missles need to have a decrease in agility and an increase in damage. Cruises need to have their agility decreased greatly, flight time increased, and need to be able to have a player set a "fuse" for a set explosion distance. Torpedos need a large increase in damage, double what it is now, horrible agility, fuse set timer like a cruise, 200 m/s increase in speed but it should barely be able to track a ship moving in a greater arc than 30 degrees. Rockets and light missles are really made for frigate type ships, Heavies and cruises for Cruisers, and Cruisers and Torps for BS. Thats the way I see it, but I love the changes you guys are making. Team tactics are more useful than ever.

LOL ok I posted the wrong formula,, try to work it now

Mikelangelo
Gallente
Posted - 2004.07.10 11:48:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Mikelangelo on 10/07/2004 11:59:20
I like the idea of missiles using the signature radius of the target and the velocity of the target to calculate damage, with a "fake area of effect explosion"

But, I'd to see it taken one step further.

The NUMBER ONE fallacy floating around these forums, perpetrated by notorious missile whiners (not naming any names here)...is that missiles ALWAYS hit.

They don't, even when no countermeasures are employed against them.

Patriot anti-missile systems don't always hit. They do rely on "splash damage" to a certain extent however.

Anti-aircraft missiles dont always hit. Air-to-air missiles don't always hit.

The Phoenix missile, which is the U.S. Navy's long range air-to-air missile, literally has an accuracy of maybe 25%, if you believe data from the Iranians, who used some off their F-14's that they got from the US a long time ago. The only documented U.S. Navy combat shot was in the First Gulf War, where is missed a helicopter. So documented accuracy is exactly ZERO.

The shorter range Sidewinder air-to-air missile has a better combat record, hovering around 60%.

Missiles should have two checks to hit. About midway to their target, and when they are close to the target. If they make BOTH of those, they should hit. Otherwise they should fly off into space, just like turret shots that don't hit.

Make them like a turret that has two chances to hit. It should be easy to implement.

Throw in "target designation" and "Missile mid-flight adjustment" skills that can affect both of the to-hit rolls.

Target designation = improves target "painting" accuracy by the firing missile ship, improving missile final lock on accuracy by 5% per level.

Missile mid-flight adjustment = you are more skilled at making mid-course corrections for your missiles. Improves missile accuracy by 5% per level.

That way, missile users have to spend as many skill points as turret users to get good with their weapons, if you count the missile skills that are already in the game.


Just my 0.02 isk.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2004.07.10 12:41:00 - [172]
 

The other way of course is to hardwire point defence systems into hulls, along with a skill perhaps with various % to destroy incoming missiles, based on class.


KR SUN
Posted - 2004.07.10 12:43:00 - [173]
 

The problem of "fake area effect" is that rocket does 20dm, even if cruise missle hitting frigate will deal 10% of damage it will still better then a rocket.

- 1000 times better range
- same missle for all ships, same launcher, same ammunition in cargo.


The only way to stop usage of "heavier" missles on "lighter" targets is make them not usable. I.e. dont allow cruise missles to hit frigates at all. Dont allow torps to hit crusers.

Or play with the "arming time" idea, but based on sig rad. So lets say torpedo fired on a bs "arms" after 5km, but fired on a frig it will "arm" only after 25km.

You cant hit a frig under 5 km with 1400mm or tachyons, but just let torps and cruises do ANY damage to frigs at any range and bs will never use any other missle.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.10 21:50:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 10/07/2004 21:57:26
Maybe you also want to look into how efficient defenders are when they are being launched with a ROF of 2 sec from a rocketlauncher (Siege Launcher Standard gets like 15-16 sec ROF). I cant understand that it's balanced when one rocketlauncher alone can kill 1/3 of the incoming missile, given a certain distance, not to mention when two are used. I havent tested it outside 40km yet, but I suppose that its worse there as they then have longer time to chew on the missiles.

Thats high slots being "filled up", as say a Apoc and Tempest have fitted mega beams and 1400's in the other high slots and cant fit any more big guns. It seems strange that they sacrifice nothing in worth of offensive capabilities and get such a amazing defence against missiles. I mean, I can take out my Apoc and fit two rocketlauchers and be 100% safe against any Ravens. If i get him scrambled he is screwed as the Raven's cap recharge can't tank over time anyway.

Those Rocket Lauchers also gives those ships a superb defence against frigs for a cheap cost and little cargospace with light missiles. Raven's only way of fitting Rocket Launchers is to give up a primary weapon, while other BS use it as a lowfitting secoundary without giving up primaries.

Hopefully the increased speed of the CM's will help against it though? ;) Or maybe you could make a Defender launcher which isnt quite so insane? one launcher, with that little fitting requirements, should at best be able to take out one siege launcher. Maybe they shouldnt be that easy to fit either?

Comments anyone?

Hellek
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2004.07.10 21:56:00 - [175]
 

The defenders don't work so well though. I.e. if you launch 3 defenders per 10 seconds and the enemy 3 cruises in the same time, its very unlikely to hit more than the first two, if unlucky even only the first one.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.07.10 22:18:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Hellek
The defenders don't work so well though. I.e. if you launch 3 defenders per 10 seconds and the enemy 3 cruises in the same time, its very unlikely to hit more than the first two, if unlucky even only the first one.


Actually, what i said was that it takes out 1/3 of the missiles: 2 out of 6, or 1/3 as you said it, pr Siege Cycle. I dont know how many defenders goes in one launcher, but you have the potentional of launching 10 defenders from one launcher against the 6CM's incoming from 6 siege launchers. You will kill more than 1 of the Ravens CM's, 2 or 3 of them with one launcher.
With two launchers that are not activated at the same time, but with 1 sec or so inbetween, is highly devastating against the Raven. And I repeat again: The BS with the Rocket Launcher(s) didnt sacrifice anything for such a good defence.

Picture this (out of line, but perspective): "I want a module that I can fit in my Ravens last two high slots that will deactivate one or two of your guns, and you have no option of countering that using eccm or anything else, which also can shoot down frigs." - That is how the rocket launchers with defenders are today.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.07.11 16:39:00 - [177]
 

yeah with new changes now more need for defenders Exclamation

JoCool
Caldari
Posted - 2004.07.11 23:59:00 - [178]
 

Quote:
Picture this (out of line, but perspective): "I want a module that I can fit in my Ravens last two high slots that will deactivate one or two of your guns, and you have no option of countering that using eccm or anything else, which also can shoot down frigs." - That is how the rocket launchers with defenders are today.


Damn true!

Andrew Redburn
Caldari
Red-Squad
Posted - 2004.07.12 09:09:00 - [179]
 

Noone can/will mount 8 Siege launchers on a Raven unless he wants to give up all defense/cap recharge.

8 * 1750 = 14000 Powergrid.

I got 14400 with Engineering lv5 and 4 PDUs (5th low is Ballistic control). I can not switch to RCUs since my only cap recharge comes from PDUs which is hardly enough to maintain all my defence systems close to infinite (Large Tech II, no XLarge possible with my setup, neither regarding Cap nor Powergrid...)

Please no more nerfs or 'adjustments'. Missles are fine. The ones who complain about missles hit to much/do to much damage: consider the facts and calculate dmg/defense. Any BS can easily defend against any missle boat right now without any trouble, just use one or two rocket launchers with defenders. They cost you close to nothing to fit and defenders are cheap.

Andrew Redburn
Caldari
Red-Squad
Posted - 2004.07.12 09:32:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: TomB
To me: if 100% of the exploison hits the target it should get MAXIMUM damage, but if the item is tiny it shouldn't, wether the item dies or not is up to the hitpoints of the item. Compare the damage % that a battleship and a frigate get from a missile hit if you don't think a frigate is (would be) more fragile to a missile blow.

This is only true for explosion dmg type.

A EM will have the same effect if your ship is inside the shockwave, no matter if the wave is bigger than your ship or exactly the size of your ship, same goes for thermal damage. Also kinetic damage type missles hit you in a small ship exactly for the same damage as in a big ship. This means bigger missles => bigger damage. The only way to prevent this is not getting hit.

Quote:

But what ever the real fact about an explosion is; cruise missiles and torpedos are missiles designed for big targets.


This is again crap. If you hit with a big gun a small target, you should do the same damage as with a big gun vs big target, but have it harder to hit.
A battleship is not called battleship for nothing. It should be the king of battle and not be an easy target for 2 or 3 frigates. If at all, then you should have made sure, that you dont get a BS that easily, but not nerf them to death! I liked EVE very much and I got some friends of mine playing it also. But the latest chagnes and the generell idea of makeing smaller ships better against big ones (or big ones less good against small) is just CRAP. A tank is better than a jeep with a machinegun. If the tank hits, the jeep is gone. On the other hand, you can buy 10000 Jeeps with MG mounted compared to one tank. That IS the point.


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