open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked More Missiles!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 : last (15)

Author Topic

Serret
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.08.11 00:06:00 - [331]
 

In this everlasting quest for absolutely balanced gameplay, it seems as if combat is in danger of degenerating into a collection of artificial numbers and formulae, differentiated by some snazzy graphics and sound effects.

So, as a sort of role-playing or Eve-mythology type of question to the devs, I do want to ask:

What exactly ARE missiles intended for in the Eve universe? How are they meant to be different from turrets (besides for looks)?

Why do people still use guns in Eve?

IMO, answering these questions would help a lot, not only with the game balance, but with establishing the "flavor" of Eve-reality as well.

Opalfruit
Caldari
Posted - 2004.08.11 00:52:00 - [332]
 

I dont see how this is gonna help by nerfing missiles hitting frigs, there easy enough to avoid and youve got plenty of time to warp out of MWD away (RoF and missile filght time), and to me it doesnt make sense how it will do less damage to a frig. Just my thoughts, probably already said (I dont have time to read 15 odd pages lol)

Menath Zaro
Posted - 2004.08.11 10:09:00 - [333]
 

What seems like the reason for them wanting to do this sig radius dependent damage, is cause they also want to increase missile speed so they can be long range weapon. Then frigs wont be able to outrun missiles as they can do today. Unless they dual mwd...

Also, the tried to change MWD so it wont be used while orbiting ships, only as a boost to get there, where the increased sig radius while in use, would let bigger guns hit. They failed that some, as ppl still use mwds all around the block, and can still use it to evade missiles.. warp out etc..

It looks like a good set of changes as long as the missile speed is increased with it. Allthough.. i dont see why a Tempest and Typhoon should not be hit equally easily as other battleship (their reduced sig radius makes them take less damage), they are freaking big and slow moving and should be just as easily tracked by CMs and Torps as any other battleship around. Easily done by lowering the optimal sig radius of missiles to same sig radius as those battleships.

Eggduck
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2004.08.11 10:11:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Eggduck on 11/08/2004 10:13:08
I just think you keep the missiles static!

If there should be some variable in damages etc.. it should be controlled...i say controlled by the one who is firing the missile.

The one who is targeted has 3 chooses.....take the damage, find a way to get rid of the missile, or get out.




Opalfruit
Caldari
Posted - 2004.08.11 10:24:00 - [335]
 

Precisely missiles arent guns, there missiles. Why make them behave like them

Piotr Anatolev
Posted - 2004.08.11 11:27:00 - [336]
 

G'day!


You know, whats the issue with torps/missiles/damage vs this and that?

A target has hitpoints, a misile/projectil has negative hitpoints. The way the hp's are subtracted from the target to simulate a missile/projectile impact should be obvious enough just looking it up in a physics ABC, no?

The agility parameter of a selfpropelled object should be a function of the current velocity/enginepower/mass.

The damage parameter should be a function of

- warhead yeild

- shrapnel & debris velocity & dispersal density at a given distance from the detonation center. The puncture damage model should also take into account damage from explosive decompression of pressurized modules/compartments inside the ship such as crew spaces etc etc as it would make up for a substantial amount of the damaging forces acting upon the vessel if ruptured.

- energy transmitted through the wavefront of expanding gas from the burning explosive itself, buckling hullplates, breaking antennas and other protruding equipment, crippling the vessels coms/radar or weaponsystems and rupturing viewports and weaker parts of the hull. The energy (negative hitpoints) delivered by the wavefront of compressed high velocity gas from the explosive itself, should obviously enough be calculated from a dispersal formula, a psi/cm² falloff from the center of detonation.

A missile is a dangerous weapon and you'd be lucky to counter it by manouvering your ship out of it's path. If it should be a featured weaponsystem in EVE, it shouldnt be tweaked into disbeleif, but be allowed it's probable RL capabilities and use that as a measure for how other things should relate to it.

Decoy countermeasures would be a ships best friend along with anti-missile missiles or projectiles with an extremely high velocity but with a rapidly decreasing accuracy over distance, say 1 - 2 clicks and a very low set damage modifier, just enough to disable a rather fragile missile at close range to it's target. To be defeated, the ILDS targeting and tracking system would have to be saturated by the attacker. The cost for a missile would be prohibitively high to be used in an ILDS saturation attack run, so the use of duds would be favourable in producing a ILDS saturation volley, randomly intermixed with live missiles.


A Inner Layer Defense System - ILDS, should, along with EMP and EW sheilding, definately be a required feature on larger military application vessels to harden them for combat.

Them startrekk shields should be totally removed.

I know, there are all kinds of unbeleivable tech stuff inside EVE that you think provides for making the game playble, but while you're at it, why not TRY to make it convincing just the sightest bit? It doesnt have to mean the game would become boring, not all, just use the imagination and it can have the best of both worlds.

Global Killer
Caldari
PAK
Posted - 2004.08.11 12:27:00 - [337]
 

some things i want to state.

people who fight with missiles always had to use different tactics then those who use turrets, there have always been drawbacks for turrets and missiles, people just worked a way around the problems, that is what we call tactics afterall.
secondly, caldari have been nerfed enough for some time, they are missile fighters for the biggest part and when you fly a missile boat like kestrel or caracal, and someone comes around in his pathetic little and weak little frig with just a few turrets and incredible speed then you can't do anything, even with fast misiiles like lights, so how does that make you feel when you are in a superb cruiser or frig with just missiles, makes you feel a bit bad doesn't it.
thirdly, these fictional changes would make frigs even stand stronger against bs's like a raven, as they don't stand strong enough now, what use is a 100 mil uberfirepower ship anymore when a few frigs attack it and it can't even survive.
battlesjips are battleships and should be supreme over all the other ships.
also i read something about megatrons being worthless against a raven with blaster setup, would be a change to see gallente get a negative effect for a change, they are about the best miners and fighters, this is strange to me as gallente are not the race of war.
and why should a minmatar get missile bonusses, caldari are the missile fighters, let them keep their benefit as minmatar allready has other benefits.
imo all races should get more specific bonusses.
makes it more fun for the race you are, and like you should also get an extra bonus if you fly the ship of your own race.


GK

Damajink
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.08.11 12:43:00 - [338]
 

RE: Impending missile nerf (one that was patched to TQ by mistake, though we all know it's going to get through eventually). Copied + pasted from a locked thread (Rolling Eyes)


Where is the logic behind this idea? A torpedo still carries the same payload no matter what target it is launched at....it makes no sense that it will do 800% less damage to a smaller target.
If I fire an ICBM at a Lada, it's not going to bounce off, is it?

And as for those people saying that Caldari need a nerf, this is 'balanced' (even though it's been said repeatedly it's not intended), did you stop to think that missiles AREN'T turrets?
They aren't supposed to be turrets (although it seems that CCP think differently in the direction they are heading in....). The turrets got nerfed in relation to their ability to HIT smaller targets. If you hit a frigate with a 425, you'll still do the same damage you did before the patch. With these impending missile changes (when they are 'balanced' ), that is not equalising them to turrets.
If you want to change the missiles to make them a bit more like turrets (which is stupid) then alter the chances of them actually hitting the smaller targets (which I think is what the devs were doing with the physics changes), not the amount of damage they cause to them. It makes no sense that a missile will do far more damage to a target than another, simply because of size. Stop making radical changes to basic gameplay elements a year into the game, balancing is fine but this type of thing is basically ripping it up and starting again. This shouldn't be happening this far into the game's life.

Issle
Gallente
VentureCorp
Posted - 2004.08.11 17:00:00 - [339]
 

I'm not Ms. Missile expert, but there's a great deal of collective unhappiness all around. We hear people say they want balance, but then they gripe because a guy can do 3x the damage with his blasters. That IS balance. You, sitting safely 25-100km away, firing your missiles, vs. the guy who flies up to 500-1000m range and opens up on the guy. Which of you is likely more vulnerable? There is a balance on that, for the most part.

Now, as for missiles proper, I offer the following thought (as others have), in the hopes it can be seen as semi-constructive.

CCP Mistake #1- Making missiles.. not miss. The 100% accuracy rating. That's a load of horsepuckey, and it was a bad move. (I see a fix, bear with me)

Mistake #2? Removing the very real blast radius because of incautious empire missile users. Couple this with:

Mistake #3: Giving those same (now no-risk) weapons pathfinding, so we cant even dodge around obstacles to avoid death.

Okay, remember the balance issue? These 3 changes really f'd that up. But that's ok, there is always a period of adjustment, and we will figure it out just in time for new changes.

Damage should not be "base damage X, adjusted by sig". That's just wrong. Sig should affect tracking, locking, hitting the target, further adjusted by missile mass/maneuverability. As I've only fired atmosphere based rockets, I will perhaps mess up some imagery here, but that's ok, its only a game.

Missile flies at 2km/sec to hit me? I got no beef with that. Missile hits 100% of the time? This I contest. Sig, as well as (much like turrets) transversal speed would affect missile impact. It can fire right at me, but if I start zooming at 3k/sec across, rather than "To" or "from" its position, it's going to have to turn to try and hit me. We do see this when we're playing, that's a good thing.

The problem is, missiles (maybe i'm crazy) appear to decelerate and turn, then accel back to hit me again. Missiles dont do that, that I'm aware of. They blow full ahead, full thrust, which severely hampers turning. If I have a sig radius of 400, I'm a big, fat, ripe ferrous target for that missile to lock on and slam into. Odds of missing? Bloody slim. A sig radius of, say, 35? I'm much smaller. I also have maneuverability at my disposal to shame a BS.

That said, and the "reality" indicating that I could easily dodge a few missile passes, it makes perfect sense that missiles are not just impact, but proximity detonated. Lacking an atmosphere, though, there is no "wavefront" that I'm going to slam into in space that makes its effect more damaging, save for the actual shrapnel itself.

If I throw myself on a grenade, I'm one dead cookie (unless insanely lucky). If I'm 10 feet away, compressed air blasting me, and my body's natural reaction may well knock me over. 40 feet away, I might wince at the sound. Unless hit by a small fragment from the initial blast, that is.

Missile explosions, in space, very similar. If it HITS me, its delivering all that damage dead-on, and I suffer for it. If it blows 50m away, it's not nearly as bad. 100m away, probably almost unnoticed in entirety.

There should be, if not a base default way to actually not get hit, a reasonable non-smartbomb counter to missiles. Drones provided the visible solution. My drones have Radar/Ladar(etc) strengths of 1. Yes, a whole *1*. What does a missile use? Its own onboard guidance. If someone fires a torp at me, and warps out before it hits, I can demonstrate the main ship is not providing tracking/targeting info, thus the missile itself is at fault. A simple ECM burst (multispectral, to cover my arse fully) should flatline its ability to home in on me. ECM only works to a limited range (unless I misunderstood the 5km range on one unit), so it wont affect the missile until it enters that range. That's fine by me. Once it's in range, it's sensors are effectively fried, it can no longer turn/home on my ship. At 5km out, a blast (if designed as such) wont do anything either. If it passes through the field, it would then have to re-aquire target, which takes time, and come back after me.

This does not, in any way, make missiles useless on the broad spectrum of the playing field. Not nearly as much as transveral velocities hampered large turret hitting, at that. One must still pack a specialized form of defense, because clearly, raw speed and being small will never be enough, there would be cries of "overpowered". Frankly, though I think ECM is a good dodge/hindrance for missiles, I'd even welcome a specialty-purpose hi-slot device to cause them to detonate prematurely, reducing heavily/eliminating damage. Some ships can run smartbombs. Some have launchers fitted with defender missiles (which are wholly inadequate against a 6-missile launching foe). That's pretty much it.

Grimes
Posted - 2004.08.11 17:06:00 - [340]
 

ok, first of all i dont understand why i would do less dmg hittig a target straight on or if i hit from the left or the right etc etc.
The dmg i deel when shooting a torp or a crusies missile should depend on my skills,the original dmg output from my warhead and the ressistans that my target have. nothing else.
So if a frigg what 2 survive, he just have to be able 2 outrun my warhead, if he sitt still the logic says that he is deadmeat.
A shock wave dmg should be be devided in nr of waves. so if the original dmg from a direct hit is 300dmg the first wave maybe have like 250dmg the third wave 200dmg in the orignal dmg, then calcute the dmg on the resistens the target have.

Sorry for my english, it sux :P

hope u understand what i mean.

Mon Palae
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2004.08.11 22:33:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Mon Palae on 11/08/2004 22:53:17
Originally by: Issle
CCP Mistake #1- Making missiles.. not miss. The 100% accuracy rating. That's a load of horsepuckey, and it was a bad move. (I see a fix, bear with me)

Mistake #2? Removing the very real blast radius because of incautious empire missile users. Couple this with:

Mistake #3: Giving those same (now no-risk) weapons pathfinding, so we cant even dodge around obstacles to avoid death.


There is more balance to missiles than you think as it is. Mostly just lazy people not willing to learn to use their ships effectively.

Like turrets missiles have their own set of shortcomings and are not some uber silver bullet for all occasions.

- Missiles can be dodged. Ever tried shooting an orbiting interceptor with missiles? You never hit them…just like heavy turrets never hit them. Except small turrets can hit them while small missiles and rockets still can’t hit them. Ever seen the dive-bombing, dual MWDing Moas? Can’t hit them either with a missile.

- Missiles have a flight time…turrets are instant hits. If I shoot torps at an Apoc sitting 60km out it will take over a minute for the missiles to arrive. All the while the Apoc can pound on missile user several times. Then the Apoc, if smart (and usually they are), will warp away thus avoiding the last 30+ missiles shot at him. Then warp back and pick up where he left off.

- Missiles can be shot down. Turret shots cannot. Granted Defenders are not all that great (although with the speed boost they got recently people are now giving them high marks) and smartbombs are difficult to use for missile defense but they can and do work to an extent. You have no such ability against turrets.

Watch the vids occasionally posted to the forums. Over and over I see the experienced PvPers using mixed fleets with maybe a few Ravens (but by no means are Ravens the bulk of their fleet) beat the snot out of fleets heavily filled with Ravens. The dive-bombing Moas seem especially geared to killing Ravens (although they are dangerous to anything).

100% hit rate indeed…I only WISH my Raven hit 100% of the time!

The altered damage versus size is a patently absurd idea. The missile maneuverability thing made far more sense but IIRC the Devs said they could not get it to work properly. My guess is this nerf is the easy answer to address perceived missile imbalance since the other fixes didn’t work. While I can accept some inconsistent with reality tweaks in the interests of game play this change runs so counter to experience and is so over the top in effect that it is truly jars you out of the immersion of play seeing it happen…and it is a thing many will see over and over again. They are essentially heading towards something like it taking 10 torpedoes to kill a pod, shuttle, frigate, cruiser or battleship. That may be an exaggeration but this whole concept is in that direction. Consider a current day sub shooting a torp at a carrier and a frigate. The carrier may sink but will be heavily damaged. The frigate will be blown literally out of the water…it does NOT take less damage and survive better because it is smaller. It either avoids the torp (or uses decoys to make it detonate) or dies if it gets hit…pretty much all there is to it these days.

Issle
Gallente
VentureCorp
Posted - 2004.08.12 03:44:00 - [342]
 

Quote:
100% hit rate indeed…I only WISH my Raven hit 100% of the time!
Which, indeed it does, if the target cannot outrun/outlast the missile. With tech 2 missile tech coming along, and some of the speeds I've seen discussed, including speed boosts based on the ships they're coming out of, even the MWD wont save people. Arguing "dual MWD dive-bombing Moa's" is a hair ridiculous, when you consider the sacrifices made to the rest of their loadout. It's akin to arguing against the oversized AB use on smaller ships.

They made sacrifices to pull off such a thing. All you need is a webber, and it's all over for them. I do not have a simple one-slot device to make me untouchable by missiles. There ARE one-button devices to guarantee my death to them.

We need some kind of stabilizer device to balance against a web, just as we have for warp jamming. Then not only do I have an option, but I have to choose what worries me more.. webs or warp scrambling.

EB Xile
The Scope
Posted - 2004.08.12 10:24:00 - [343]
 

There nerfing missiles? Guess I'll have to hop out of my Raven and into an Apoc or something until they nerf that. I guess that's what they call adaptingRolling Eyes

Mon Palae
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2004.08.13 03:52:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Issle
Quote:
100% hit rate indeed…I only WISH my Raven hit 100% of the time!
Which, indeed it does, if the target cannot outrun/outlast the missile. With tech 2 missile tech coming along, and some of the speeds I've seen discussed, including speed boosts based on the ships they're coming out of, even the MWD wont save people. Arguing "dual MWD dive-bombing Moa's" is a hair ridiculous, when you consider the sacrifices made to the rest of their loadout. It's akin to arguing against the oversized AB use on smaller ships.


T-II missile tech? Yeah...I'm sure they will be uber instagank bolts of instadeath. As with most things in EVE they will doubtless have balance but for now I am concerned with what actually exists in-game.

As for the dual-MWD Moas they are indeed a unique and specialized setup and frankly not something you would do solo. In packs however they are lethal as some mates of mine found out the hard way. Too bad you weren't there to show them how easy it is to have killed them. I'll have to tell them to look up this "webber" thing you mentioned. Rolling Eyes

Jacob Vought
Caldari
Draconic Industries
Posted - 2004.08.13 07:43:00 - [345]
 

In terms of PvP the missile nerf makes a little sense, but not very much. In terms of mission runners (combat version) and hunters this is an absolutely bad idea. Agent runners get bad pay for the times spent playing as it is (loot included). If this were to take effect, it would turn those now costly Scourge missiles (and all the other costly missiles/torpedos) into a money drain. An npc frigate force almost always accompanies npc cruisers in level 3 missions. If it takes 8 or 12 missiles at 250isk each to kill an npc Merlin (12-17.5k isk bount aprox) instead of 4, missions shall be run far less. Yes one can switch to guns and adapt, but why not leave the option open to missile users?

Depending on how things go, I would have to turn to only mining to get money. I know mining is the best way at the moment for money, but the fun factor of missions outweighs it. If I do turn to mining I don't know how long it will be before I leave EVE. Honestly, don't put the hate on the mission runners again please.

Always remember that when you balance something for PvP, the non-PvP'ers are still here and get the effects as well.

Meau
Fatal Furballs
Posted - 2004.08.13 10:43:00 - [346]
 

Just to throw in my 0.2 isk:

Shock waves make no sense in space, as there is no medium to get shocked and transport the wave.
Somebody posted speeds for actual explosion shockwaves, and said they should be faster in space. Actually a shockwave is faster the denser the material is, its the same as the speed of sound beeing higher in water than in air. Ignoring my first argument even this leads to the conclusion that shockwaves are not existing in space(having zero velocity).
The only thing you get is the actual explosion, which is just the hot mass of the explosive slinged out at high speeds.

Na'Axin
Naxbar
Posted - 2004.08.13 14:00:00 - [347]
 

ffs CCP, if you are gona put a maximum damage to the missiles then also put a minimum to them or remove them both.

make it either do between 50-100% to the target. or if you want to make it do 18 damage to a frigate, then give us that 1500 damage to those BS's as well

MatStar
Caldari
Annihilate.
Avarice.
Posted - 2004.08.13 14:10:00 - [348]
 

if the problem is missiles hitting all the time, and no way to avoid unless u outrun them.

then why not add countermeasures like we have 2day.

Decoys, flares and chaff......

And another thing you want realism in this game?? change the space flight model to I-War.........Missiles in space if you ask me would never work theyd so many directional thrusters to alter trajectory to hit a fast moving target. Sure they would work as Dumb-Fire missiles hits the standing still or very slow target.....


Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2004.08.14 15:04:00 - [349]
 

All the past changes (accuracy, drones) and all the coming changes (missile, and EW in the faaaar far future) and the nerf of the cruise missiles for frigs and cruiser AND the upcoming overized AB and mwd nerf will change the following!!!!!

How Battleships will kill frigates (and cruiser) ...

... AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUNDExclamation

So in the end we will get what we always wanted ...
... longer fights AND variety

No more 3 secs gank festivals

BUT ...

... on the other hand OF COURSE a frig shouldnt be invlunerable and be able to kill a BS on its own!

Therefor as already mentioned above: We need the oversized AB and MWD nerf!!! (and therefor we had the large missile nerf for smaller ships (no more cruise missiles for frigs)

On a side note: We all know that the missile physic change failed!
But the upcomming missile changes will simulate the same effect as the other change would have done! Even more missiles will be able to do quite some dmg vs samller targets if the target gets hit head on through the impact dmg which will vary through speed and actual ship position!

In the end YES, missiles will get "similar" to turrets. Their dmg will vary on sig radius and speed of the target ...

BUT without that change we can NEVER achieve balance


AND even more the missile change adresses ANOTHER problem

ATM the mwd's (we assume oversized AB's are nerfed) are TEH module you need to fit on your frig 99% of the times! = MWD is a "NO BRAINER" module for frigsExclamation

And exactly this issue will get adressed through the missile changes cuz then we wont need that high speeds to "evade" dmg but frig pilots will have a choice to either be a little dmg dealer and tank or be a FAST moving ship to scramble, dampen, jam a BS and close the distance very fast with the mwd.

You see we have a choice now so I dont see how anyone could be against all these changes!!!

Note: I do agree something is wrong with the projectile guns BUT however this has actually nothing to do if or if we dont need the changes!!!

ugh

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.08.14 18:59:00 - [350]
 

Just make sure that 1 or 2 Frigs, read Taranis, cant kill a BS fitted for battle. A Taranis with named guns do a amazing amout of damage, even against battleships, they just shouldnt be able to do that. They really need to reduce the general damage output of frigs. Is easily done with reducing the damage of the given ammuniton and missiles. Frigs role in battles should not be dealing damage, but killing other frigates and going after cruisers, and most importantly scrambling other battleships and securing the important battleship kills BY other battleships... Frig fleets were allready before these changes the most scaring thing a normal composed fleet could meet, please take this into concideration

Detaurus
Posted - 2004.08.15 07:03:00 - [351]
 

This is not so difficult to see and understand

Superior Ships In Each Class

Industrial- Iteron Mark V(Gallente)
Interceptor- Taranis(Gallente)
Cruiser- Thorax(Gallente)
Battleship- Megathron(Gallente) After Missiles are nerfed, and turrets are toned wheras Drones are empowered(largest tier
2 Battleship Drone Bay)

JoCool
Caldari
Posted - 2004.08.15 11:49:00 - [352]
 

*nods*

but you forgot:
best looking ships (Gallente)
best looking avatars (Gallente)

Jukio
Gallente
LFC
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2004.08.15 16:24:00 - [353]
 

Some Info about missiles:

irl:
They are expensive, hard hitting and accurate (depending on generation 85 - 99 % hit rate) some are guided by external factors, some are guided onboard and Fire and forget.

Big missiles (like cruise missiles etc) do huge amounts of damage vs any target be it small or big. A little target that gets hit by a big missile will get wrecked completely, big missiles have more guidance (GPS, inertial, laser radar terrain following etc) more fuel on board to make direction changes (changing direction takes energy, decreases range etc)big missiles can be faster or slower depending on their purpose, a cruise missile is made to be accurate (0,5 meter accuracy ) and are usually slower (although in space accelleration is not a problem)as a missile does not have to be slowed down, the faster it is the better, it can use all its energy to fly faster and change direction a bit but the faster it flies the less change in direction is needed.

Acceleration for a regular SAM (shoulder launched) is about 50 G (a fighter pilot can take 9 G), in space this would probably increase exponentially)

Thus, a missile is a accurate, hard hitting but expensive piece of ordnance , the question therefore is mute i think in that yes a frigate and a cruiser would probably get hit catastrophically by a (1) heavy missile (K kill)it would have better survivability due to jamming (active thus in itsself jammable)and or decoys (passive)it could try to outmanoeuvre a missile but chances are slim.

Therefor it would be unwise i think to make missiles a class sortof thing like turrets

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2004.08.15 18:34:00 - [354]
 

technobablabal...

dont forget that frigs and cruiser come with an advanced built in sort of cloalking device ...

... which results in a smaller sig radius Razz

ugh

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.08.16 20:39:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Detaurus
This is not so difficult to see and understand

Superior Ships In Each Class

Industrial- Iteron Mark V(Gallente)
Interceptor- Taranis(Gallente)
Cruiser- Thorax(Gallente)
Battleship- Megathron(Gallente) After Missiles are nerfed, and turrets are toned wheras Drones are empowered(largest tier
2 Battleship Drone Bay)


You forget the following awards:

Frigate - Kestrel (Caldari)
INTERCEPTor - Stiletto (Minmatar)
Support Cruiser - Blackbird (Caldari)
Support Battleship - Scorpion (Caldari)
Damage Dealing Battleship - Armageddon/Apoc (Amarr)

Also, you forget that the Iteron class industrials are the worst haulers if you disregard the Iteron 5. That Megathron has been recognised as working best close and personal.

And to add a bit to the debate about real life missiles compared to turrets: targeting computers for turrets are extremely efficient, and those fitted on tanks have 95% accuracy well over 1km away while moving at top speed. Or something similar.
So, let's skip real life comparisions, as in real life you'd rather hide and hit than tank and hit, cause in real life getting damaged is really bad.

I am still wondering why a changed turn radius on missiles/torps doesn't work... (i.e. torps doesn't turn while light missiles basically only turn)

Braddict
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.08.16 23:05:00 - [356]
 

If missles created such a huge game-wide imbalanced, as many here have implied, then everyone would be flying Ravens.

I personally see mostly Apocs & Megas. So either those battleship pilots haven't noticed how gimped they are vs Ravens or their choice of battleships have their own set of advantages over Ravens that level the playing field out that other pilots have yet to figure out.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2004.08.17 09:24:00 - [357]
 

Originally by: Braddict
If missles created such a huge game-wide imbalanced, as many here have implied, then everyone would be flying Ravens.

I personally see mostly Apocs & Megas. So either those battleship pilots haven't noticed how gimped they are vs Ravens or their choice of battleships have their own set of advantages over Ravens that level the playing field out that other pilots have yet to figure out.


That is not the case. Battleships are so big that most weapons hit them really well regardless of tracking. The issue is the missiles 100% hit rate on smaller ships. Indeed, frigate combat suffer greatly from this, as they are close quartered and fast, but turret frigates can't go in too high speeds as then they hit nothing while missile frigates can orbit trippled MWDed if they wish and still hit 100%.
Although this isn't a too great issue, the Battleship versus frigate comparision is of great magnitude. Simply put, compared to turrets missiles hit and damage frigates all too easily. Added to this problem is that as long as the missiles hit frigates for 100% accuracy and damage, the missiles need to be slow so that frigs have a chance to get away. If the frigates would become more survivable versus missiles, then Cruise Missiles could be doubled in speed, which in turn would greatly benefit Scorps and Ravens when fighting other battleships.

To finish it off, I'd like to say that I find the +% damage when signature radius increases vastly offensive. Why should the reward for getting a Megathron close be completely eliminated by the extreme amount of damage it'll recieve from any missile ship when approaching? That turrets hit it better doesn't matter very much, as the turrets are still very limited in their damage.

hitech redneck
Digital Mind Crimes
Posted - 2004.08.17 16:38:00 - [358]
 

missle need to be left alone. if ccp just thinks they need to brak missles atleast fix the cruise missle launcher so it can fire cruise,heavy and standard missle so you can swap out missles as needed.

Mon Palae
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2004.08.17 18:28:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
The issue is the missiles 100% hit rate on smaller ships. Indeed, frigate combat suffer greatly from this, as they are close quartered and fast, but turret frigates can't go in too high speeds as then they hit nothing while missile frigates can orbit trippled MWDed if they wish and still hit 100%.


I don't know who you have been fighting but the peeps I fight have zero trouble avoiding missile in frigs. The ONLY way I cna ever hit the pirates I fight is to find some way to slow them down (Nos or Web). Beyond that they zip about my Raven with impunity. I have tossed many dozens of missiles at these guys for very few hits. Granted...when I do hit them they are demolished but this seems as it should be. Frigs value is in avoiding being hit which they do well but they SHOULD fall apart fast if hammered by heavy weapons.

All in all seems fairly good to me. If those frigs catch me out alone without backup I can promise I will get owned right quick doing pretty much nothing but sitting there and dying. If they lose 20 frigs over the course of a month to get me once they have come out ahead on balance.

Sorry but I still fail to see the issue here and the supposed need for a missile nerf.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2004.08.17 19:11:00 - [360]
 

Mon Palae
The reason why the missile changes are coming into the game, or at least was, is cus they couldnt make the agility on missiles prevent them from hitting frigates, when they increase the missile speed to speeds previously on Chaos. Cus atm frigs can outrun missiles and evade them. With increased missile speed, they cant. CM's travelling in speeds of 6km/s was something we saw on Chaos. Earlier in the thread, TomB has confirmed that we could see speeds looking like those we had on Chaos.

As a Raven pilot, I'd much rather have speed than the ability to kill frigs that arent mwding. The changes are very good for Missile users, balance lays in how much damage they missiles still will do to a frig. A frig running on one MWD can still be hit, and then it will also have higher sig radius. It all fits well in the idea where MWDing frigs should use the MWD on approach and not while orbiting and so on... Changes are very nice if they dont make missiles do too little damage. I hope to see them ingame soon!


Pages: first : previous : ... 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 : last (15)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only