open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked More Missiles!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 ... : last (15)

Author Topic

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2004.08.02 02:11:00 - [271]
 

Tell me... why will missiles be able to hit mwding frigs now, while turrets cannot, no matter what you say?

Carter Burke
Posted - 2004.08.02 04:24:00 - [272]
 

Raven has six mids.

On the topic of comparing IRL stats, the guy is right, current time is way out of balance in favor of attack compared to what Eve seems to be up to. A better comparison is WW2 technology, where battleships had giant guns, subs teensy ones, frigates slightly better, etc. etc.

But of course, if it takes ten cruise missiles to kill a single frigate, I'm of a mind that someone's smoking a little too much dope in Iceland.

CB

anais
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.08.02 09:30:00 - [273]
 

the system doesnt need to be improved.

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.02 15:00:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: anais
the system doesnt need to be improved.


As wierd as this may sound. You might have a point. The way that CCP is going about coming up with a formula for the damage models is odd to say the least. What they have now is fairly workable.


Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.02 15:14:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Carter Burke
Raven has six mids.

On the topic of comparing IRL stats, the guy is right, current time is way out of balance in favor of attack compared to what Eve seems to be up to. A better comparison is WW2 technology, where battleships had giant guns, subs teensy ones, frigates slightly better, etc. etc.

But of course, if it takes ten cruise missiles to kill a single frigate, I'm of a mind that someone's smoking a little too much dope in Iceland.

CB


It would appear that CCP is fumbling around in the dark. Comparing Real Life Statistics to a game with very little in the way of physics isn't going to work. CCP must sit down and come up with a consistant set of "rules" that govern the EVE universe. What they have now is haphazard.

Missile seem to have a certain amount of burn time, meaning that you can conclude that they move under the impulse of some chemical propellent or some other limited power source. But they also do some rather eratic manuvers that would under Real life situations. burn off a great deal of kinetic energy and momentum. Further more, in a micro gravity enviornment, these missiles would not stop travelling when the propulsion source ran out.

These missile would also be travelling at enormous speeds. In Real Life, these missiles would accelerate to many km's a second during burn phase and remain at the speed after the booster has stopped firing (or what ever the Hell it's doing). One can accept the possibility of Midcourse and terminal guidance, but that would burn off energy with course corrections, and chasing down a fast moving ship would severly limit its range.


Kalarin
Posted - 2004.08.02 15:46:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Kalarin on 02/08/2004 15:48:24
A good idea for protecting of frigs - rearming time for a fast missiles (cruise). Torpedos and light\heavy missiles may not has a rearming time, for for cruise - it will be ok. All guns has a range of usebility (short-range, mid-range, long-range), but missiles - don't. I think it can be same. Rockets, light, heavy missiles and torpedoes must be short-middle range weapons only (0-30km) and cruise missiles - long range only (30km+).
And may be some nerfing for manevrability of fast missiles also will be good. A big missiles must miss a small or\and fast ships a much (similar with L guns).

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.02 16:50:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Kalarin
Edited by: Kalarin on 02/08/2004 15:48:24
A good idea for protecting of frigs - rearming time for a fast missiles (cruise). Torpedos and light\heavy missiles may not has a rearming time, for for cruise - it will be ok. All guns has a range of usebility (short-range, mid-range, long-range), but missiles - don't. I think it can be same. Rockets, light, heavy missiles and torpedoes must be short-middle range weapons only (0-30km) and cruise missiles - long range only (30km+).
And may be some nerfing for manevrability of fast missiles also will be good. A big missiles must miss a small or\and fast ships a much (similar with L guns).



I think tying in missile manuverabitiy with ship agility to determine the possiblity of hit would not be out of line. THe Damage models are fine as it stands.

Kalarin
Posted - 2004.08.02 17:19:00 - [278]
 

Then may be do a simple thing - zero damage from torpedos and cruise on frigs (and may be 1\2 or 3\5 of damage to cruisers)? Smile All other BS must use S and M guns (and webifer) to hit a frigs at short range. If Raven pilotes will have to use Assault\Standard\Heavy Launchers (and web) for hit frigs - it will be OK (and VERY similar with other BS pilotes). Smile And Raven will still be a good ship - it has a bonus to ALL missile launchers (not only for large versions, as all other BS).

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.02 21:38:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Clan MacGregor on 02/08/2004 21:39:44
Originally by: Kalarin
Then may be do a simple thing - zero damage from torpedos and cruise on frigs (and may be 1\2 or 3\5 of damage to cruisers)? Smile All other BS must use S and M guns (and webifer) to hit a frigs at short range. If Raven pilotes will have to use Assault\Standard\Heavy Launchers (and web) for hit frigs - it will be OK (and VERY similar with other BS pilotes). Smile And Raven will still be a good ship - it has a bonus to ALL missile launchers (not only for large versions, as all other BS).


That would be a very Un-realistic method of modelling the effects of missiles and torpedos. Torpedo's hit frigates regardless. In real life torpedos are limited in the abilty to strike fast moving ships, but they can none-the-less, and the effects are devastating.

Modern torpedos home in on a target via a number of parameters ranging from magnetic, acoustic and active targetting to those that home in on the wake formed by the transit of the ship. Some of these torpedos reach incredible speeds that can catch even the fasted patrol boat. (Ons Soviet system could travel upwards of 100 kts +)

Counter systems and manuvers involve decoy systems and moving in right angles to the torpedo, forcing it to make constant course correction till the seaker looses the target, enters the safety cutoff, or runs out of fuel. A fast moving frigate would have to rely on it's manuverability to avoid a torpedo, but still has to live under the possibility that the torpedo may still find the target.


Under the present system, the missile, torp or what ever seems to find the target pretty much all the time. I'd like to see the missile miss when appropriate, but not all the time.

And when it hits....POW!Twisted Evil


Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2004.08.03 02:30:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Roderic Excelion
Conversely the same tactic works for you. you can arrive, launch an alphastrike and then warp to safety, and when the torps hit, they die, never being able to hit you.


Obviously you've never tried this in a missile boat. If you warp away, your missiles lose their target, and explode. This was put in place, just to prevent the tactic you named.

Kalarin
Posted - 2004.08.03 07:46:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Clan MacGregor
That would be a very Un-realistic method of modelling the effects of missiles and torpedos. Torpedo's hit frigates regardless.

Are you joking? Is laser (for example) can miss in real life? Laughing But I think - all BS pilotes can be in same position. If some BS must use S and M weapons for hit small and fast targets, then ALL BS with similar DoT MUST has the problems. And frigs\crusers must has a chance to survive from ALL BS. No BS can has ability to be effective against of all (with similar DoT), if some BS dosn't has the ability.

Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2004.08.03 08:06:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Darkwolf on 03/08/2004 08:08:20
Originally by: Kalarin
Are you joking? Is laser (for example) can miss in real life? Laughing


God, I hate it when people think (erroneously) that lasers can't miss.

Try this practical experiment. Get a laser pointer. Now, get your mate to run around the backyard like hell, while you try and hit him with the beam by pressing the button for a short burst. See how hard it is?

That's because the TRACKING and ACCURACY of the targeting and firing assembly (your hand and eye) limits the ability of the laser to hit things.

Never mind the fact that the tracking speed of your arm is amazingly high :)

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 08:13:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Kalarin
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
That would be a very Un-realistic method of modelling the effects of missiles and torpedos. Torpedo's hit frigates regardless.

Are you joking? Is laser (for example) can miss in real life? Laughing But I think - all BS pilotes can be in same position. If some BS must use S and M weapons for hit small and fast targets, then ALL BS with similar DoT MUST has the problems. And frigs\crusers must has a chance to survive from ALL BS. No BS can has ability to be effective against of all (with similar DoT), if some BS dosn't has the ability.


Es' no joke.

Under what I have described, Frigates have a reasonable expectation of surviving a torpedo attack. That is to say, dodging the torpedo. It is unreasonable to assume that a frigate will dodge a torpedo 100% of the time. Especially if it falls within a shallow angle of attack to the target.

I think it should be something like WWII when slow moving convoy's were easy targets for U-Boat's, but fast Destroyer Escorts were able to out manuver fired torpedo's and rush to engage.

But sometimes the Destroyer lost...Wink


Chith
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Posted - 2004.08.03 13:40:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: Chith on 03/08/2004 13:42:56
Originally by: Clan MacGregor

Under what I have described, Frigates have a reasonable expectation of surviving a torpedo attack. That is to say, dodging the torpedo. It is unreasonable to assume that a frigate will dodge a torpedo 100% of the time. Especially if it falls within a shallow angle of attack to the target.



Just manually dodging would be great if the game mechanics allowed for it. Lag escalates so rapidly and the interface so difficult, that it's just not fiesable for anyone but the top 1% to do it. Sure, anywhere from 1-5 missles can be managed if its just a small number of ships floating around, but that would be a rarity.

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 15:28:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Chith
Edited by: Chith on 03/08/2004 13:42:56
Originally by: Clan MacGregor

Under what I have described, Frigates have a reasonable expectation of surviving a torpedo attack. That is to say, dodging the torpedo. It is unreasonable to assume that a frigate will dodge a torpedo 100% of the time. Especially if it falls within a shallow angle of attack to the target.





Just manually dodging would be great if the game mechanics allowed for it. Lag escalates so rapidly and the interface so difficult, that it's just not fiesable for anyone but the top 1% to do it. Sure, anywhere from 1-5 missles can be managed if its just a small number of ships floating around, but that would be a rarity.



I had proposed that target agility versus missile manuverability be the factors in deciding the probability of a missile / torpedo hitting a target... Idea


Titan II
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.08.03 18:53:00 - [286]
 

Good, Bad

I'm the Guy with the Torpedo...Twisted Evil


Nuke 'em Baby!

Titan II
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2004.08.03 18:59:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: TomB
Shock waves occur before an explosion when a bomb explodes (see movie: Chain Reaction for good example), the state of the target, velocity wise, in the physic engine is taken into a calculation that then applies kinetic damage on the target.


Movie Chain Reaction is the worst example to use. Shock waves form in a medium, such as atmosphere and cause overpressure. Not sure about EVE, but there is no atmosphere in space and therefore no shockwave. Rolling Eyes

Give it a rest

deathbyfire
Gallente
Can't Decide
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2004.08.03 20:08:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:11:13
Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:10:57
Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:10:29
Originally by: Titan II

Movie Chain Reaction is the worst example to use. Shock waves form in a medium, such as atmosphere and cause overpressure. Not sure about EVE, but there is no atmosphere in space and therefore no shockwave. Rolling Eyes

Give it a rest


that is not the case not all shockwaves are in air when a earthquacke hits there is a shockwave going out from teh epicenter adn it moves along the ground the shockwave woudl be caused by teh paticals exploting moving at a high velocity in a sphere arond were the missle exploded a.k.a. what splash damage is. Splash damage is never the same amount of damage as the explotion was either.

So IMO a better example would be that a ship at close range orbiting a missle boat, i'll use a raven for this example, the raven's missles would be having to follow the ship in the orbit canstanly having to change direction, becasue of the target ship is never going strait, so the missle instead detonates when it gets close to the target yet doesn't accualy hit. so the damage delt is from the shockwave or splash caused by the missle, so the damage would not be nearly as much as if the missle accualy hit the target.

also is space there si no real different between the explosions be it explotive or kenetic. the damage itslef woudl be the same but with kenetic it is more the impact itsself i am think TomB was thinking about this when he said kinetic in teh first post. so a kenetic missle would more likly explode clsoe to the target lauching thousands of pirces of shrapnal at the target. causig the kinetic type damage so the damage itselt is from the insaine splash the kinetic missle would have. adn so teh shockwave (should be called splash IMO) idea works becasue if a missle is forced to explode near a target to do damage teh damage will not be as great do to the fact that fewer particals of the splash would hit the target. also ties in with the area of effect damage which is also know as splash.

there is my 2 isk
and my interpitaion of what TomB is tryign to say

RL Malcontent
Posted - 2004.08.03 22:27:00 - [289]
 

After wading this entire thread, I can't help but feel that far too many of us are giving far too much credit to the Dev team in regards to practical rationalization. After all, this is a game that has atmospheric warp sounds, pretty silly really, in zero atmospheric conditions and large weapons that can't hit smaller objects simply because they are small even if said object is sitting directly in front of the barrel at point blank range.

My core thought after reading this long long thread is that the Dev team needs to start focusing more on the things that are broken in Eve and STOP spending so much time on the things that aren't broken. Tomb I hope you and CCP know that all these changes are starting to take the fun out of Eve all together. If that's your plan then good job! 20 cruise missiles at 2k+ isk each to kill a 10k or less target makes a lot of sense. Rolling Eyes By the way, if a frigate attacks a battleship, who says they should have a chance to survive anyway? If a rabbit attacks a wolf, the wolf has dinner. Give the frigate the ability to escape the BS. That is what small agile ships are for anyway. Stop nerfing the BSs to death already.

Laveticus Draconis
The Illuminati.
Posted - 2004.08.03 22:46:00 - [290]
 

Edited by: Laveticus Draconis on 04/08/2004 00:09:07
Edited by: Laveticus Draconis on 03/08/2004 22:48:59
Edited by: Laveticus Draconis on 03/08/2004 22:48:04
I agree with RL, leave well enough alone and fix the real gd problems here! Hell, we all know if these new changes are implemented there will be NOTHING but errors with the mathematics involved. Has CCP ever heard of a damn calculator!? CCP, quit fín with us and fix whatís really wrong with this game!

deathbyfire
Gallente
Can't Decide
Balance of Judgment
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:33:00 - [291]
 

let me guess you both like spaming missles

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:46:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: deathbyfire
Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:11:13
Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:10:57
Edited by: deathbyfire on 03/08/2004 20:10:29
Originally by: Titan II

Movie Chain Reaction is the worst example to use. Shock waves form in a medium, such as atmosphere and cause overpressure. Not sure about EVE, but there is no atmosphere in space and therefore no shockwave. Rolling Eyes

Give it a rest


that is not the case not all shockwaves are in air when a earthquacke hits there is a shockwave going out from teh epicenter adn it moves along the ground the shockwave woudl be caused by teh paticals exploting moving at a high velocity in a sphere arond were the missle exploded a.k.a. what splash damage is. Splash damage is never the same amount of damage as the explotion was either.

So IMO a better example would be that a ship at close range orbiting a missle boat, i'll use a raven for this example, the raven's missles would be having to follow the ship in the orbit canstanly having to change direction, becasue of the target ship is never going strait, so the missle instead detonates when it gets close to the target yet doesn't accualy hit. so the damage delt is from the shockwave or splash caused by the missle, so the damage would not be nearly as much as if the missle accualy hit the target.

also is space there si no real different between the explosions be it explotive or kenetic. the damage itslef woudl be the same but with kenetic it is more the impact itsself i am think TomB was thinking about this when he said kinetic in teh first post. so a kenetic missle would more likly explode clsoe to the target lauching thousands of pirces of shrapnal at the target. causig the kinetic type damage so the damage itselt is from the insaine splash the kinetic missle would have. adn so teh shockwave (should be called splash IMO) idea works becasue if a missle is forced to explode near a target to do damage teh damage will not be as great do to the fact that fewer particals of the splash would hit the target. also ties in with the area of effect damage which is also know as splash.

there is my 2 isk
and my interpitaion of what TomB is tryign to say


An Earthquake is not a good example either. The ground is the medium through which the kinetic energy is transferred. In an atmospheric explosion, the shock wave is referred to as a precurser, or a wave of condensed air that causes over presure on a structure.

The concept of Splash damage is along the lines of sharpnel and not part of the precurser wave.

In space, no atmosphere, no precurser, no shockwave, other than particulate matter from the material ejected during the detonation. Pretty attenuated compared to an atmospheric blast.


Laveticus Draconis
The Illuminati.
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:47:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: deathbyfire
let me guess you both like spaming missles


I don't own a Raven, however I do have a Caracal, and no, missiles are by no means all I use. Every weapon in the game has its advantages and disadvantages and it should stay that way. Hell, I guess everything will be nerfed so much in time that no one will notice a difference, it'll just take longer to do the same thing. Rolling Eyes

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:52:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: RL Malcontent
After wading this entire thread, I can't help but feel that far too many of us are giving far too much credit to the Dev team in regards to practical rationalization. After all, this is a game that has atmospheric warp sounds, pretty silly really, in zero atmospheric conditions and large weapons that can't hit smaller objects simply because they are small even if said object is sitting directly in front of the barrel at point blank range.

My core thought after reading this long long thread is that the Dev team needs to start focusing more on the things that are broken in Eve and STOP spending so much time on the things that aren't broken. Tomb I hope you and CCP know that all these changes are starting to take the fun out of Eve all together. If that's your plan then good job! 20 cruise missiles at 2k+ isk each to kill a 10k or less target makes a lot of sense. Rolling Eyes By the way, if a frigate attacks a battleship, who says they should have a chance to survive anyway? If a rabbit attacks a wolf, the wolf has dinner. Give the frigate the ability to escape the BS. That is what small agile ships are for anyway. Stop nerfing the BSs to death already.



I agree with you, but when I read about the possibility of a cruise missile not doing heavy damage to a frigate, I had to say something.

The way Tomb has it, the target, and not the weapon dictates the damage. If I were to shoot a high powered rifle at a large can, I'd exspect a rather nice hole through the can, or barrel if you will. If I were to use the same rifle to shoot a soda can, I expect an equally nice hole and the can to go flying.

Under Tombs proposal, the soda can gets less damage, cause it is smaller... rubbish even in the EVE universeRolling Eyes


Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:55:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Laveticus Draconis
Originally by: deathbyfire
let me guess you both like spaming missles


I don't own a Raven, however I do have a Caracal, and no, missiles are by no means all I use. Every weapon in the game has its advantages and disadvantages and it should stay that way. Hell, I guess everything will be nerfed so much in time that no one will notice a difference, it'll just take longer to do the same thing. Rolling Eyes


I think the damage models are fine. But the 100% hit rate on missiles needs to be addressed. Frigate pilots also need to understand that it takes a big pair of brass ones to go after a battleship, and to expect to get destroyed...Rolling Eyes

I love Frigates, I just don't expect to take down a bs in oneYARRRR!!

Clan MacGregor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2004.08.03 23:59:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: deathbyfire
let me guess you both like spaming missles


Thorax here... no missiles...Rolling Eyes

Laveticus Draconis
The Illuminati.
Posted - 2004.08.04 00:05:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Originally by: Laveticus Draconis
Originally by: deathbyfire
let me guess you both like spaming missles


I don't own a Raven, however I do have a Caracal, and no, missiles are by no means all I use. Every weapon in the game has its advantages and disadvantages and it should stay that way. Hell, I guess everything will be nerfed so much in time that no one will notice a difference, it'll just take longer to do the same thing. Rolling Eyes


I think the damage models are fine. But the 100% hit rate on missiles needs to be addressed. Frigate pilots also need to understand that it takes a big pair of brass ones to go after a battleship, and to expect to get destroyed...Rolling Eyes

I love Frigates, I just don't expect to take down a bs in oneYARRRR!!


Agreed, the 100% hit rate could be changed. Think Iím just tired of getting a new ship, rigging it out, and having the weapons and such completely changed soon there after.

I retract my previous statement regarding CCP. However, please do consider investing in a decent calculator.
Smile

Estarriol
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.08.04 00:32:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Darkwolf
God, I hate it when people think (erroneously) that lasers can't miss.

Try this practical experiment. Get a laser pointer. Now, get your mate to run around the backyard like hell, while you try and hit him with the beam by pressing the button for a short burst. See how hard it is?


I think I could hit him all the time, if I had a computer helping me...

Of course, ships in EVE don't even get the Internet, so what do I know?

BIRDofPREY
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.08.04 05:00:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Laveticus Draconis
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Originally by: Laveticus Draconis
Originally by: deathbyfire
let me guess you both like spaming missles


I don't own a Raven, however I do have a Caracal, and no, missiles are by no means all I use. Every weapon in the game has its advantages and disadvantages and it should stay that way. Hell, I guess everything will be nerfed so much in time that no one will notice a difference, it'll just take longer to do the same thing. Rolling Eyes


I think the damage models are fine. But the 100% hit rate on missiles needs to be addressed. Frigate pilots also need to understand that it takes a big pair of brass ones to go after a battleship, and to expect to get destroyed...Rolling Eyes

I love Frigates, I just don't expect to take down a bs in oneYARRRR!!


Agreed, the 100% hit rate could be changed. Think Iím just tired of getting a new ship, rigging it out, and having the weapons and such completely changed soon there after.

I retract my previous statement regarding CCP. However, please do consider investing in a decent calculator.
Smile



Amen Brother, A-freakin-men Very Happy

Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2004.08.04 05:42:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Estarriol
I think I could hit him all the time, if I had a computer helping me...


Now try and strike something that's 50 metres long, 30 kilometres away, which is travelling at 7,200 kilometres per hour tranversally.

You need extraordinary aiming precision to hit a target that small, and the tracking of the mechanism is still immensely important in determining whether you'll hit or not. The computer only makes it possible to hit. It doesn't make it 'easy' to do so.


Pages: first : previous : ... 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 14 ... : last (15)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only