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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2008.11.03 05:08:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 03/11/2008 05:10:56
In a galaxy far far away...

RP Version
----------
A lone hauler loaded with much needed supplies and luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fleet Commander to unidentified vessel state your business and declare your cargo manifest. Prepare to be scanned.
[Hauler]Captain L Dopa here, deep space transport, isotopes and luxery goods for XYZ station. Uploading manifest.
{Fleet Commander} Thank you for your cooperation. Please be aware of and abide by local system regulations and protocols. Have a good trip.

Reality
-------
A lone hauler loaded with NOT-needed supplies and NOT-needed-luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fire.
[Hauler]Guys dont kill me Im just transporting good to sell to you guys!
{Random Ganker}Lol
{Fleet Commander}Lol

Thats pretty much why you guys are lacking people in low sec 0.0. Too many fake pirates due to the 0.0 no sec-loss killing true nuetrals and the ease of npc'ing back any you lose in low sec.

Dasalt Istgut
Posted - 2008.11.03 05:25:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
In-short: Nothing.

Some people want zero-risk in their Internet Spaceship PvP Game. Rolling Eyes


Its not about risk. Its about profit. I don't mine - but I know how much a hulk costs and it'd be stupid to fly one in nullsec if you don't have very good intel/security in your area and are relatively rarely disturbed.

If I'm going to fly around in a ship without guns or mobility I don't also want to lose a ton of money when it blows up.

In low sec its just plain stupid/suicidal to fly a hulk.

Yelan Zhou
Amarr
Ba.theen Aljannatal Asaakitah
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2008.11.03 05:38:00 - [243]
 

A PvP flag system would bring the carebears to nullsec.One clicks at a little box and one becomes unattackable.
Sorry but YOU asked.

Souvera Corvus
THE PAROXYSM
Session Changes
Posted - 2008.11.03 06:18:00 - [244]
 

AS someone who lives in low-sec/null-sec and has managed to do so for the majority of his EvE-life I get very frustrated when certain people start banging on about how we need more people in low-sec and that somehow its CCP's job to make them go there.

There's nothing wrong with low-sec, not a damn thing. Its a bloody dangerous place to be where co-operation is the only way to get things done. The people who moan about low-sec are genrally doing so because they feel they don't have enough ganks.

There are targets aplenty if you try hard enough to find them, problem is of course that as they're low-sec inhabitants themselves they're much more likely to shoot back and aren't as such an easy gank.

Orignally, people just came straight out and said make low-sec more lucrative so that people would come there. Then when that didn't look like happening they changed tack and said the problem was actually that high-sec was way too rich (and that's just hilarious, to think that such a 'massive' imbalance didn't manifest itself until five years had passed).

In my view, low-sec works exaclty as it should and given a little co-operation and some experience there's money to be made there. Its not for everyone though and neither should it be, so I'd really much rather that pirates would stop trying to get CCP to force everyone down there so they can have more people to gank.

I can think of several low-sec pirate outfits that do just fine and I tend to believe its a sign of competence. Moaning about how high-sec needs to be nerfed or low-sec boosted is just the opposite.

I see lots of 'sandbox' references being flung around. EvE will cease to be a sandbox if its 'your' sandbox.

Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
Posted - 2008.11.03 06:25:00 - [245]
 

Did anyone even look at this? Damn... I thought it was funny.

Originally by: Cat Molina
Honestly, we just need a better advertising campaign.

Laughing


Bah! I'm going to state my position one more time, just in case any devs are getting strange ideas.

Empire is for players who don't like PvP. It's 'somewhat safe'. Keep it that way. If you don't like getting shot, don't go to low-sec... it's scary and dangerous here. And while many like easy kills, I'd rather that, if you did come visit, you bring a PvP-fit cheapish ship and have some laughs. Sorry... we don't need miners and industry... we've all got alts. But thanks anyway. Wink

0.0 is for players who like a bit more danger under controlled circumstances, laggy fleet fights, and working in large groups. Keep it that way. We're beneath their radar, so they really don't care too much about visiting low-sec unless you're talking jumping goods through with cap ships. Have fun out there guys. Wink

Low-sec is for pirates/non-conformist/misfit PvP'ers. Many in gangs, some solo, some just trying out combat because they've run missions for a year and are bored. Keep it that way. Miners need not apply; our belts aren't really real... just cardboard backdrops in a place where frigates, dessies, and cruisers fight.

Remember:

"Decent people shouldn't live here. They'd be happier somewhere else." -The Joker

Derelyk
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.03 08:07:00 - [246]
 

would like to add, make bounty hunting a viable occupation.

SPIONKOP
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.11.03 09:03:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 03/11/2008 05:10:56
In a galaxy far far away...

RP Version
----------
A lone hauler loaded with much needed supplies and luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fleet Commander to unidentified vessel state your business and declare your cargo manifest. Prepare to be scanned.
[Hauler]Captain L Dopa here, deep space transport, isotopes and luxery goods for XYZ station. Uploading manifest.
{Fleet Commander} Thank you for your cooperation. Please be aware of and abide by local system regulations and protocols. Have a good trip.

Reality
-------
A lone hauler loaded with NOT-needed supplies and NOT-needed-luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fire.
[Hauler]Guys dont kill me Im just transporting good to sell to you guys!
{Random Ganker}Lol
{Fleet Commander}Lol

Thats pretty much why you guys are lacking people in low sec 0.0. Too many fake pirates due to the 0.0 no sec-loss killing true nuetrals and the ease of npc'ing back any you lose in low sec.


A rather simple view but you do have a point. Alliances assume that if your a neut your a spy, your an enemy, your a freeloader but it does not matter what they think you are. Your a target and your dead.

Not everyone wants to be in an alliance as such going into nul sec to mine or trade is suicide.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.03 09:11:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

The main reason that I don't like statements such as

Originally by: Annaphera
play in a style they have no wish to play in


is because interpreted in the wrong way and taken to the logical extreme this statement turns into "nobody should be susceptible to non-consensual actions by other players", which is clearly antithetical to the Eve philosophy.


You prefer a different statement to the same end?

I have signed up for a game with specific parameters in risk, rewards, time sinks and so on.

You want to change it increasing my time sinks and the time I should spend in activities that I don't enjoy as that will increase you enjoyment of the game.

I resent being nerfed for your enjoyment as I am paying as much as you for this game.

I am perfectly aware that most PvPers can't get in their head that someone don't find PvP particularly enjoyable, especially if they would be on the prey part of the hunter/prey relation. You seem to be sure that after starting PvPing people will enjoy it. I can assure you that it is not particularly true for a lot of people. We can PvP but we don't want to structure all of our playing time around PvP as you do.

So you are trying to force us to adapt to your play stile. And we will resist and resent that.

I live both in 0.0 and high sec and move around in low sec, but would never run combat missions or mine in the belts in low sec (while one of my alt run missions in NPC 0.0). Doing mission or mining in low sec his a time sink as most of the time is lost doing nothing beside hiding. Forcing me to operate in low sec you want to increase my time sinks to reduce your (i.e. so that you can find more targets spending less time). No thank.

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.11.03 09:53:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Blastil
What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?


Don't you PvP players have alts to do your mining and industrial duties?
Stop playing the roles of miners and idustrialists. If you keep doing that, what incentive do those kind of players have to play those roles?
To put it simply: get rid of your carebear alts, and employ real people to do the same. That would get miners and industrialists to 0.0

Also: wanting all the players to do PvP is like wanting all the population in a country to be in the army. Yes, your granny too. Is plain stupid.

Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
In-short: Nothing.
Some people want zero-risk in their Internet Spaceship PvP Game. Rolling Eyes

So, bright mind, if this is a PvP game, why CCP bothered to make Empire? Why don't you get a replacement ship every time you go "pop!"?
Why are there so many skills for mining and build things?
Why do you have mining and industrial alts or have people doing that in your alliance?
Why are there missions, to begin with?
Your game definition fails. Sorry.

This game is as much a PvP game as it is an industrialist or mining or trading or economic game.
There's no war without economy. There's no economy without trading. There's no trading without industry. There's no industry without mining.

It is difficult to do industry related activities in 0.0. It's a war zone, and as such, it's not the best place to build thing, or mine. Empire is needed.
Look what happens in RL. In conflict zones, nothing is being built. Factions buy weapons from other coutries, because their factories are probably bombed and not active.
If you lose a city where you manufactured weapons, and want to get it back, how are you supposed to do it? You need to buy weapons from other places, places with active industries, not involved in the war.

So, if you want, start looking at Empire as another coutry, if that makes you happy.
0.0: Warland
Empire: Happy carebear land, home of the industry.
Low-sec: Carebear pirate land. Just a nuisance, if you ask me.

So, as I've said in my previous post: if you open the alliance clubs, and are willing to accept people doing the work of your alts, maybe more "carebears" will move to 0.0

But for me, the games is pretty much OK as it is.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.11.03 10:25:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Dirk Magnum

The main reason that I don't like statements such as

Originally by: Annaphera
play in a style they have no wish to play in


is because interpreted in the wrong way and taken to the logical extreme this statement turns into "nobody should be susceptible to non-consensual actions by other players", which is clearly antithetical to the Eve philosophy.


You prefer a different statement to the same end?

I have signed up for a game with specific parameters in risk, rewards, time sinks and so on.

You want to change it increasing my time sinks and the time I should spend in activities that I don't enjoy as that will increase you enjoyment of the game.

I resent being nerfed for your enjoyment as I am paying as much as you for this game.

I am perfectly aware that most PvPers can't get in their head that someone don't find PvP particularly enjoyable, especially if they would be on the prey part of the hunter/prey relation. You seem to be sure that after starting PvPing people will enjoy it. I can assure you that it is not particularly true for a lot of people. We can PvP but we don't want to structure all of our playing time around PvP as you do.

So you are trying to force us to adapt to your play stile. And we will resist and resent that.

I live both in 0.0 and high sec and move around in low sec, but would never run combat missions or mine in the belts in low sec (while one of my alt run missions in NPC 0.0). Doing mission or mining in low sec his a time sink as most of the time is lost doing nothing beside hiding. Forcing me to operate in low sec you want to increase my time sinks to reduce your (i.e. so that you can find more targets spending less time). No thank.


This is reading too much into my posts. Regardless of what sec level you're in you're going to be subject to the non-consensual actions of other players taken against you. If you're not, it's only because nobody sees a reason to subject you to it yet. This is a core mechanic of Eve and has been for the entire time the game has existed.

It doesn't make things better for me at all if industry demanded more activity in Low Sec. I hate paying high prices for things and the only reason I ever go to Low Sec is if war targets are reported there. If the majority of high sec low-end ore was moved to low sec the prices on the modules I consume will go up and up unless industrialists decide to actually enter Low Sec in force. A key point from my earlier post was that nobody will be forcing industrialists to do this. There will still be the resources present in other sec levels to continue manufacturing, albeit in reduced quantities. Some industrialists and their support won't enter low sec even after the changes were implemented, while others would... and who knows they might even enjoy the added challenge. With the buffs to industrial ships that are coming up the logistical effort involved in moving materials from low sec to high will be made easier anyway.

So to recap in summary:
* I'm not trying to force anyone into PvP
* I was only suggesting a way to get more people into Low Sec since that was the point of this thread.
* Everyone in Eve is and always has been subject to unwanted contact with other players in EVERY sec level
* Low sec blows because it offers hardly anything in the way of essential game components
* Luring people out to Low Sec with buffed mission rewards doesn't address the problem stated above

Sweetpain
Gallente
Bootcamp Alpha
Posted - 2008.11.03 11:18:00 - [251]
 

Been away a year and the question is the same as it was in 2004 :)

Removal of the gatecamps is the first step, also less bottlenecks to and from o.o. It's not the problem staying in 0.0 the keep people away, it's the problem getting to and from 0.0

What could help a lot is transit lanes with secure space to the dead center of 0.0 completely surrounded by 0.0 space. That way every 0.0 region had a secure space selling point in the middle of it, where people could stock their equipment, spare ships etc closer to their 0.0 operating area.

One other option would to make jump clones mre availeble and cheaper, perhaps an option to buy jump clone remotely to a 0.5 area set in middle of 0.0 land.

Elena Morin'staal
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.11.03 12:52:00 - [252]
 

As a hisec mission carebear, the only thing that would entice me into lowsec is removal of gate camps. Why?

If I'm in low, and I get scanned down by someone who has taken the time to find me, then they deserve their kill, if (and most likely when) they kill me.

I'f I get popped just because I've jumped in (which has happened) I'm not gonna jump in again. Whats the point?


Lowsec needs to make you keep one eye on your scanner, watching out for pirates as you mission or mine. Thats how lowsec should feel. Why would you bother going in when you get instapopped by some 3 year old character sitting on the gate waiting? What possible incentive does a carebear have for hitting jump?

Now, if gate camps were not possible, and you could safely enter low, it'd be a different story. You'd do your missioning/mining, one eye on the scanner, hoping no one has flagged you down. That rush as you see a pirate appear, hoping you can warp before he scrams you - thats epic.

Jumping in just so some camper can kill you, well, why bother? Not worth it. No fun, no risk vs reward as its all risk.

ramification
Posted - 2008.11.03 12:54:00 - [253]
 

Edited by: ramification on 03/11/2008 13:09:17
Originally by: Derelyk
would like to add, make bounty hunting a viable occupation.


All CCP has to do to make that happen is let you get bounty for destroying someone's ship, not their pod, like with NPCs. Bingo, that player gets targeted first in fleet fights and by random passers by and gankers, even in High-sec. Bounties overall might even come down, because they'd be reduced to an extra bonus for something that happens often enough anyway in everyday combat.

Hey, *I'd* start training PvP to become a bounty hunter if this is how it worked.
Originally by: Dmian

Social analysis post.


The thing you need to understand is that 0 sec Eve is currently stuck in the feudal system. There are tenant farmers mining dyspro for extortionate rents. There are 'peasants' who get pressed into service and used as irregular cannon-fodder. There are baronial squabbles.

Would Eve's game mechanics support a more modern capitalistic way of doing things for 0 sec Alliances? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not what happens at the moment.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.03 13:03:00 - [254]
 

So then they dont even need to let a friend pod them, they can just let a friend destroy their rookie ship/shuttle.

Would only work when it is based on how much the target lost. So the killer gets the same ammount of isk as that the target with bounty lost (can work both for pod/implants and ship), assuming that is less than the value of the bounty. If it isnt less than the bounty, then you just get the bounty.

ramification
Posted - 2008.11.03 13:13:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
So then they dont even need to let a friend pod them, they can just let a friend destroy their rookie ship/shuttle.

Yeah, my mistake. Your idea sounds like it could work, however.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.11.03 13:14:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: Venkul Mul

I have signed up for a game with specific parameters in risk, rewards, time sinks and so on.



This is reading too much into my posts.


Sorry, the you wasn't meant to Dirk Magnum alone and specifically but to the generic group of people wanting "carebears" to change and move in low sec. your post was a good starting point of my rant.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

Regardless of what sec level you're in you're going to be subject to the non-consensual actions of other players taken against you. If you're not, it's only because nobody sees a reason to subject you to it yet. This is a core mechanic of Eve and has been for the entire time the game has existed.


And the current level of "non-consensual actions" affecting me is what I have signed up for. Trying to forcibly change it to a higher level because some other players will then enjoy more the game at my expenses don't sit well with me.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum

It doesn't make things better for me at all if industry demanded more activity in Low Sec. I hate paying high prices for things and the only reason I ever go to Low Sec is if war targets are reported there. If the majority of high sec low-end ore was moved to low sec the prices on the modules I consume will go up and up unless industrialists decide to actually enter Low Sec in force. A key point from my earlier post was that nobody will be forcing industrialists to do this. There will still be the resources present in other sec levels to continue manufacturing, albeit in reduced quantities. Some industrialists and their support won't enter low sec even after the changes were implemented, while others would... and who knows they might even enjoy the added challenge.


Gambling a lot on the change having the effects you envision. The drone region unforeseen after effects should teach us that it is not easy to change basic mechanics without serious consequences.


Originally by: Dirk Magnum
With the buffs to industrial ships that are coming up the logistical effort involved in moving materials from low sec to high will be made easier anyway.


Not so convinced. The effects of the changes seem to be more aimed at 0.0. It depend if the blockade runners will lose the agility advantage they currently have or not, if the deep space transport become rally viable in low sec after the change (personally, I doubt it) and so on.


Originally by: Dirk Magnum

So to recap in summary:
* I'm not trying to force anyone into PvP
* I was only suggesting a way to get more people into Low Sec since that was the point of this thread.
* Everyone in Eve is and always has been subject to unwanted contact with other players in EVERY sec level
* Low sec blows because it offers hardly anything in the way of essential game components
* Luring people out to Low Sec with buffed mission rewards doesn't address the problem stated above


* Forcing someone in low sec with the alternative of cutting him out of a game activity he can currently do is forcing him in a location where unconsensual PvP is much more widespread, is forcing him to operate constantly under the full PvP game restrictions.

* Low sec offer several options with better return than high sec, but the primary offer of low sec is free PvP without need to be in a corp/alliance. If someone is not interested in that offer the other things that low sec has to offer lose most of the lustre. So people interested in low sec is mostly people that love and thrive in small gang PvP and love the thrill of hunting or be hunted. People like me that find hunting or to be hunted mighty boring don't find low sec interesting.


Quote:
* Luring people out to Low Sec with buffed mission rewards doesn't address the problem stated above

Signed. Generally those that think it is only a isk problem are the pirates.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2008.11.03 13:28:00 - [257]
 

Low-sec currently isn't worth going there.
The ore there is crap, running missions can get you scanned out and you can end up being gate/station camped a lot.
The only thing I even do in low-sec is Ninja mining in a Skiff for the fun of it.

It's not so much people being afraid of low-sec, but there being no profit of going there compared to high-sec, you take a risk in losing ships and implants by going into low-sec, while there are few if any additional rewards to compensate.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.03 13:46:00 - [258]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/11/2008 13:47:54
Low-sec population is fine, stop whining.

What it could do with is boosting low-sec rats, merely because the rats (and belt content) are the lousiest part of low-sec to start with and could live with being balanced with other low-sec content (like, exploration, complexes, low-sec missions, etc).

Other then that, low-sec is fine. Stop whining. It is the fun part of EVE, leave it alone.

I was in low-sec for months before I got into pirating.


Mr Pentex
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:14:00 - [259]
 

Well here is my two cents.

Gatecamps are the big problem, for a mission runner with Faction fitting and so on. Losing a ship just at a gate, is just not profit.
During a mission if someone scans you down and popps you okey with me, couse then there are things one can do to prevent that, but runing in to 50+ ships when couming through a gate and get insta killed no thank you. To much ISK loss.

Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:16:00 - [260]
 

In reply to the original post.

To make carebear to go low-sec, low-sec would have to be safe like empire space is.

But we don't want that.
So let them stay in high-sec.

EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:20:00 - [261]
 

Remove high-sec and give real AI to Concord, and/or implement a coherent reward system against outlaws. Also, link accounts/alts so it isn't exploited.

Psychotic Outcast
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:27:00 - [262]
 

Well, I suppose someone could organize a carebear alliance with a Combat wing to guard mining ops, and escort industrials, and provide a general sense of purpose....... and stuff.......


Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:29:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 03/11/2008 14:29:51
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 03/11/2008 05:10:56
In a galaxy far far away...

RP Version
----------
A lone hauler loaded with much needed supplies and luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fleet Commander to unidentified vessel state your business and declare your cargo manifest. Prepare to be scanned.
[Hauler]Captain L Dopa here, deep space transport, isotopes and luxery goods for XYZ station. Uploading manifest.
{Fleet Commander} Thank you for your cooperation. Please be aware of and abide by local system regulations and protocols. Have a good trip.

Reality
-------
A lone hauler loaded with NOT-needed supplies and NOT-needed-luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fire.
[Hauler]Guys dont kill me Im just transporting good to sell to you guys!
{Random Ganker}Lol
{Fleet Commander}Lol

Thats pretty much why you guys are lacking people in low sec 0.0. Too many fake pirates due to the 0.0 no sec-loss killing true nuetrals and the ease of npc'ing back any you lose in low sec.


Not quite accurate, but the general idea is pretty close to the truth as far as perception is concerned ...

CALUGARU
Did I just do that
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:30:00 - [264]
 

man this thread got so boring...ugh

Cassandra Valieries
Posted - 2008.11.03 14:31:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Souvera Corvus
AS someone who lives in low-sec/null-sec and has managed to do so for the majority of his EvE-life I get very frustrated when certain people start banging on about how we need more people in low-sec and that somehow its CCP's job to make them go there.

There's nothing wrong with low-sec, not a damn thing. Its a bloody dangerous place to be where co-operation is the only way to get things done. The people who moan about low-sec are genrally doing so because they feel they don't have enough ganks.

There are targets aplenty if you try hard enough to find them, problem is of course that as they're low-sec inhabitants themselves they're much more likely to shoot back and aren't as such an easy gank.

Orignally, people just came straight out and said make low-sec more lucrative so that people would come there. Then when that didn't look like happening they changed tack and said the problem was actually that high-sec was way too rich (and that's just hilarious, to think that such a 'massive' imbalance didn't manifest itself until five years had passed).

In my view, low-sec works exaclty as it should and given a little co-operation and some experience there's money to be made there. Its not for everyone though and neither should it be, so I'd really much rather that pirates would stop trying to get CCP to force everyone down there so they can have more people to gank.

I can think of several low-sec pirate outfits that do just fine and I tend to believe its a sign of competence. Moaning about how high-sec needs to be nerfed or low-sec boosted is just the opposite.

I see lots of 'sandbox' references being flung around. EvE will cease to be a sandbox if its 'your' sandbox.


Words of wisdom. If I'm happy being a carebear in Empire and missing out on the lowsec fun, why should anyone have an issue with that Smile

Ratchman
Posted - 2008.11.03 15:11:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Blastil
Edited by: Blastil on 31/10/2008 15:07:22
CCP has been emphasizing getting carebears and industrialists out into lowsec and nullsec in a non-PVP role. At every turn this has fallen through, since it seems carebears are all dead set against risk in any shape or form.


It's because you CAN'T go to lowsec and nullsec in a non-PVP role. The second you try to go there, even in a BC class ship, you will be blown apart with no chance.

Last time I took a look around 0.0 I lost a BC before I even MWD'd 12km back to the gate. Still, I had a good look around in my pod that no-one could catch. Shame it was sod all use other than looking at stuff that I might have been able to do if I was in a ship of some sort.

Lowsec at least you have some chance of survival, but in 0.0 bubbles pull you out of warp and you are mincemeat. pffft.

... and no, I don't want a second job, I don't want to have to log in on corporate ops at certain times.

So, what would get me into Low and Nullsec is not guaranteed death on a stick as soon as the jumpgate goes whoosh.

You moan about people not wanting to go there, but kill them all with overwhelming force as soon as they do!


This gets to the nub of the argument. PvPers moan about carebears, simply because they won't let the PvPers shoot them, then they moan that the carebears won't come into 0.0. Which way do you want it? Empty space, or populated space with less chance of getting an easy kill?

Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.11.03 15:15:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: Poreuomai on 03/11/2008 15:22:19


Regarding low-sec, it would have been great if the 4 empires were seperated by low sec, such that you MUST go through low sec if you want to travel between Rens, Oursulaert, Amarr, and Jita.

Originally by: Blastil
CCP has tried and met with only limited success to get these players into more risky space, so I'll ask this question, aimed mostly at carebears and industrialists.

What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?

As someone who has spent most of his time in high sec and relatively recently moved out to 0.0, I'd say this:

We all know it's not really feasible for a player to move there. His whole corp needs move and in all likelyhood the corp needs to join an alliance before it can realistically look at 0.0 operations.

So my question is, what are 0.0 alliances doing to make hi-sec industrial corps join them ?


Ratchman
Posted - 2008.11.03 15:30:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Yelan Zhou
A PvP flag system would bring the carebears to nullsec.One clicks at a little box and one becomes unattackable.
Sorry but YOU asked.


How about a system that allows people to 'hire' a Concord presence in a specific system? Concord would ONLY attack those ships that fired on the contracted ship or fleet. The caveat of this would be that Concord would turn on the contracted ship or fleet if they decided to fire on anyone else. That way, a Concord escort could only be used by ships not participating in PVP.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.03 15:43:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Poreuomai
Edited by: Poreuomai on 03/11/2008 15:22:19


Regarding low-sec, it would have been great if the 4 empires were seperated by low sec, such that you MUST go through low sec if you want to travel between Rens, Oursulaert, Amarr, and Jita.

Originally by: Blastil
CCP has tried and met with only limited success to get these players into more risky space, so I'll ask this question, aimed mostly at carebears and industrialists.

What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?

As someone who has spent most of his time in high sec and relatively recently moved out to 0.0, I'd say this:

We all know it's not really feasible for a player to move there. His whole corp needs move and in all likelyhood the corp needs to join an alliance before it can realistically look at 0.0 operations.

So my question is, what are 0.0 alliances doing to make hi-sec industrial corps join them ?




The issue here is that most 0.0 alliances already have industrial corps, who also contribute people who are willing to fight. Why should they share their resources and markets with industrial corps who aren't also will to help defend?

Speaking from the other side of the fence, I have seen the "PvPers vs non PvPers in 0.0" argument over and over again. The most common argument I see is that the alliance will benefit by having the industrial guys supply it. Sounds great in practice, but the reality is that those cheap or free ships, modules and ammo never seem to materialise. They often appear on the market and juicy 0.0 markups, though - but if I'm going to pay that kind of markeup, I might as well get my own Jita-price ships&mods jumped up from high-sec.

In short, the "PvPers" spend both time and ISk defending their alliance space, but the "industrialist corps" are generally not willing to contribute much of either. When those mandatory CTA ops come around, they turn up in T1-fit Caracals, or sometimes Drakes, and contribute little or nothing to the fleet. Or, more frequently, just log out untilt he op is over.

In short: PvPers can import the output of industrialists relatively easily, but the player who is willing and able to fight in a well-fitted, approriate ships is not so easily replaced.

So why should the alliance ask the PvPer with a miner/trader/industry alt to share belts, hi-ends, markets, moons with your carebear corp? What's the benefit to the alliance here in return for reducing it's PvP members incomes and increasing the amount of assets it must protect?

So yeah, they ask you for 500M/month. Yeah, they expect you to supply free ships. Yeah, they're not keen on you ratting the good belts. Why wouldn't they? You're not doing anything they can't do for themselves, and you're not willing to conrtibute as much time and ISK as the PvPers to further the alliance's goals.

DaDutchDude
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.11.03 16:26:00 - [270]
 

Quote:
What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?

As a non-PVP role carebear: nothing really.

It's like asking somebody to jump into a boxing ring with their arms tied behind your back. Sure, the boxing ring is big and there won't always be fighters in there. Sure, you might be able to pick up some cash with your teeth. But judging by the 2398127392108764319764913249765 topics about this, there are plenty people hoping for more easy targets in the ring and more people would glove up and get in the ring if more easy targets would be available. So any incentive for carebears would most likely lead to more pirates, which would probably balance things out again.

You have to remember people play this game for fun, and for most people, that means they want to win. I don't think being a punching bag without the ability to do something back will ever be fun for people that don't have some psychological disorder.

Really, isn't this like dragging a dead horse?


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