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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.11.02 13:00:00 - [211]
 

Quote:
The realisation that there's no workable game mechanic that will make 1 ship > many ships that can't be used to make many ships >> 1 ship.
There *kinda* is, but only when that mechanic is a defensive (read escape method) only

Dessa DesPlains
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.11.02 16:05:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:17:09
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:04:57 Various incoherencies
Empire carebears need to learn that living in low or no sec is a skill. Just as jet can mining or mission running is a skill. You don't need a skill book but you do have to learn how to do it.

There is nothing in this thread that does not have a defense that is taught by your low or no sec corp. Its just a matter of education.

Get out of the "me and my alts corp" mindset and join a low or no sec corp. Bring your friends with you. You'll have more fun doing something new (and yes dying) than you will sucking veldspar in empire. If a corp is in low/no sec they have a way to make isk where they are living or they wouldn't be there. And more than in empire. Join in and learn something new and see for yourself what is profitable and what is not.

*** FREE LESSON ***
The part about the miners getting ganked makes me laugh. When you see a neutral jump into system, you should go somewhere safe. What? Everyone is neutral to you? You didn't see them jump in? That means you don't have standings set and you don't have local open. You are not paying attention. Get in a corp with standings set, open local and pay attention to your surroundings and your tension level will diminish greatly.

In low or no sec standings are key. They tell you who you have to hide from and who will back you up. Default empire standings have everyone neutral. Thats scary in low sec. That makes it seem as every mans hand is raised aainst you. It may be true. But it may not. This is where standings come in. Carebears (YOU) will feel alot safer when your local is full of blue plus marks and stars.
A low/no sec corp will have standings set concerning the neighbors where they live. The work is already done. You will KNOW who may shoot at you and who will not. Unlike jita. "Which one of these battleships sitting on the gate is going to shoot at me?" In low/no sec, you know. Blue won't, red will. Neutrals are red. Twisted Evil This is why you die when you go down alone. Your neutral. You die.
Many corps operate under NBSI. NBSI: Not Blue, Shoot It. Again, this is why you die when you go down alone.

Also, any corp worth its salt has an intel channel for hostile reports. This makes you safer. Imagine, if you will, watching your intel channel scroll with reports of where bad guys are. "4 man hostile gang in hdvfbkhb" "!!! thats 2 jumps from here, better get ready!" I'm sure you can see how that will help prevent your miner/hauler from getting blown up. Not you and your 2 alts in channel but dozens of other real live people! Teamspeak or Ventrilo makes you safer as well. With your corpies calling out hostile reports (and ass jokes), you CAN watch tv and mine veldspar (or bistot). Laughing

But you need to learn how to survive and you need the resources and support of others. Not just mineral resources but podpilot resources too.

So go! Make sure your clone is updated (you might want to move it somewhere closer to your new low sec home), get in a pod and go to low sec. Poke around. Talk to the people. Die. Rinse, repeat. Don't forget to update your clone after you die. Yes, I said it twice but its something you really want to remember. Meet some people who could use a miner as bait. Join a corp. 3)??? 4)Profit.

I didn't say anything about alliances. Most corps in low/no sec will be in an alliance. The other corps in the alliance will be blue on your local. And there will be an alliance wide intel channel... "4 hostiles in JFTUIYT" "That is 8 jumps away, I can mine till they get closer.".

Eve is not a single player game. You need friends. You may still die, but you can also die piloting a freighter to Jita.

*** SERMON CONCLUDED ***

What? Me to low/no sec? oooohhhhh.
Nothing. I'm already here. Very Happy

Hotice
Posted - 2008.11.02 17:47:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Hotice on 02/11/2008 17:48:14
Based on current conditions, there are only two ways that carebears would move to low sec and 0.0.

1. Hell froze and heaven burns.
2. CCP will close Eve for good and server will shutdown in 1 hour.

Pretty easy isn't it? lol

Stop posting this kind of stuff OP. You cannot find a way to do it without totally changing the game from bottem to top. You cannot change people's play style. They simply don't like low sec or 0.0, what are going to do? They are paying customers and ccp cannot really force them. If ccp tries, they will move on to other games and CCP company will suffer. Under the clouds of current world market, losing large amount of players would be the last thing that ccp want see.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2008.11.02 17:48:00 - [214]
 

The biggest planet sized Veldspar roid my carebear eyes have ever seen!

Ganja Ree
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.11.02 18:18:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Blastil
What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?


Won't happen.

Stop trying so hard.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2008.11.02 18:29:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Clair Bear on 02/11/2008 18:29:35
Originally by: Chribba
The biggest planet sized Veldspar roid my carebear eyes have ever seen!


Done! It's in 16P-, and the bastard is the size of the whole belt. I keep bouncing off of it (and friends) trying to rat.

Come bulldoze them out and I'm sure I can pass the collection plate and sc**** up a few ISK to pay you for jump fuel.

Why do people keep equating nullsec to lowsec? Nullsec is a fertile farmland *PACKED FULL* of carebears. Lowsec is a pointless ghetto.

Karen Ichijou
Posted - 2008.11.02 19:03:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Karen Ichijou on 02/11/2008 19:16:56
Give incentive by lessening risk (rather than increasing reward):

My main idea -

Give Barges and exhumers (at the very least the procurer to actually give it some use) a huge increase in agility/acceleration ( my wish would be that of a shuttle but may be overpowered but at least frigate agility), and I'll mine happily in lowsec. Keep the procurer's +2 warp stabalizer bonus as well (A covert ops pirate has a chance to lock them down with +2 scramblers).

Other recommendations to this single hi slot barge

- An increased cargohold (maybe about 4km3)
- A 10% yield per barge level (giving it an ability of 1.5 strip miners at barge level 5)

Some other ideas include:

Move all belts to special "gravimetric" sites, that use the on board scanners to find. Have it prevent from easily being macro'd by having it only show up in space (rotate the camera and look for the triangles) and not on the overview. Normal gravimetric sites are still unaffected and will require explorers to find and will reap better benefits as usual. Warp to fleet member should still work fine.

That way it'll be a little harder for pirates to just 'scan down and warp'. They'll have to spend that 30 seconds scanning the warp-in point too.

----

I'm just thinking these up as to make miners less easier to kill. It will certainly give me incentive to go to lowsec since it won't be instant death (at least for the shuttle agility idea)

EDIT: Shuttle agility might be overkill

Evarum Kador
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.11.02 19:35:00 - [218]
 

Respect from players for the role that 'carebears' play might be a start. 'Carebear' isn't exactly a term of endearment. And in most threads that i've read 'carebears' are treated like some NPC or a game mechanic that's there to give pvp'ers targets of opportunity with little to no ability to defend themselves depending on what ship they are flying.

'Risk vs. Reward' is not neccessarily an appropriate comparision/contrast, as this implys that even stupidity, provided it involves an act of 'risk' would provide a reward whose value would be equal in value to the risk taken. Obviously this logic is flawed. A more fitting comparision might be 'Sacrifice vs. Payoff'. An industrial player 'sacrifices' combat abilities in lieu of industrial skills that makes their profession more worth-while. A combat ship that is setup for DPS sacrifices its defensive abilities to make it more effective at its chosen role.

And blanket generalizations like 'carebears don't want to take any risks' are insulting, and hypocritical as there is not much risk involved in popping an industrial ship at a low-sec gate.

Just because some carebears are smart enough to not get killed by YOU, doesn't mean they aren't in low-sec and it doesn't mean they aren't taking risks and making this game that we all love, what it is.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:01:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:17:09
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:04:57 Various incoherencies
Empire carebears need to learn that living in low or no sec is a skill. Just as jet can mining or mission running is a skill. You don't need a skill book but you do have to learn how to do it.

There is nothing in this thread that does not have a defense that is taught by your low or no sec corp. Its just a matter of education.

(((tons of good stuff)))

Eve is not a single player game. You need friends. You may still die, but you can also die piloting a freighter to Jita.
*** SERMON CONCLUDED ***
What? Me to low/no sec? oooohhhhh.
Nothing. I'm already here. Very Happy


Honestly? Amongst all Eight pages, this is the best advice/Post yet. Fantastic and ohhh so true! Worst losses you hear of are typically those people flying expensive ships solo.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing Mega - M's worth rats in my corner of Low-sec, teaming up with like minded people in corps or alliances is the way to go.

AK

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:28:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 02/11/2008 21:29:56
Quote:
A low/no sec corp will have standings set concerning the neighbors where they live. The work is already done. You will KNOW who may shoot at you and who will not. Unlike jita. "Which one of these battleships sitting on the gate is going to shoot at me?" In low/no sec, you know. Blue won't, red will.

Reason number 1 why alliances are a crock of ****. My alliance told me nothing more than "Sit down, shut up, stop whining, you'll destabilize the alliance" when my battleship (the only battelship in our corporation at that time) got ganked by blues from another corp. No ISK, no apologies, nothing. 'An overview bug' which simultaneously happened on 11 machines they reckon.

Having done the 0.0 alliance thing is the reason I haven't gone back.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:31:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Quote:
A low/no sec corp will have standings set concerning the neighbors where they live. The work is already done. You will KNOW who may shoot at you and who will not. Unlike jita. "Which one of these battleships sitting on the gate is going to shoot at me?" In low/no sec, you know. Blue won't, red will.


Reason number 1 why alliances are a crock of ****. My alliance told me nothing more than "Sit down, shut up, stop whining, you'll destabilize the alliance" when my battleship (the only battelship in our corporation at that time) got ganked by blues from another corp. No ISK, no apologies, nothing. 'An overview bug' which simultaneously happened on 11 machines they reckon.




I'm sorry you joined a ****ty alliance. They happen; there are better ones. Likewise your corp, come to that. A good corp will value the least of its members above the whole of it's alliance.

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:43:00 - [222]
 

Quote:
I'm sorry you joined a ****ty alliance. They happen; there are better ones. Likewise your corp, come to that. A good corp will value the least of its members above the whole of it's alliance.


That's what I thought, so I tried a few more.

Next alliance: Shoved us in a box (one system) and told us not to come out. Fired on us if we did.

Next alliance: By this time I'd started to have a bar of things (and I was a director at this time) so I setup a high-sec recruitment cell as part of our corp to feed players into low/0.0.
Promptly got demanded to close up and come fight the war, or they'd kick the corp. Apparently one player feeding numerous players into the war wasn't 'fighting the war'. I left the corp to save them the trouble.

Next alliance: Corp I joined was cool, but then out came the demands from the alliance for mandatory POS defence/offense ops or they'd get CEOs to boot people, with no way I could *reasonably* attend given my timezone.

That's the main ones in a nutshell, in the north, south and east of EVE.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:46:00 - [223]
 

Just to make one thing absolutely clear. Your tips are spot on and work very well. That said…
Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
*** FREE LESSON ***
When you see a neutral jump into system, you should go somewhere safe.
…and immediately remove most of the reasons to go into lowsec to begin with.

If you go somewhere safe as soon as you see a neutral jump in, the time lost doing so means your earnings effectiveness is now (far) lower than what you'd get in highsec. It's a simple and effective measure, but completely counterproductive. It does however highlight the problem of trying to carebear in lowsec: the increased payout does not sufficiently cover the cost (or, rather, lost earnings) from the countermeasures. This tends to be the problem across the board: get a friend to guard you? Earnings cut in half — less effective than highsec. Refit? Earning takes more time — less effective than highsec. Etc etc etc.

ramification
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:49:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: ramification on 03/11/2008 01:22:21
As a relatively new player, I have to say this thread has been extremely interesting to read. At the core we're looking at two different reasons to play the game:

1) Desire invest time and energy in accumulating nice stuff, solely for the enjoyment that comes from doing that.

2) Desire to compete with other players directly for the enjoyment that comes with winning, or at least competing well despite losses.

The sad thing is that to read the posts on this thread you'd think that the two viewpoints are both totally incompatible (they're not; the game is even set up to encourage intergration of the two), and incomprehensible to players on either side of the divide. Pvpers don't understand that their pestering of carebears affects the risk/reward ratio because they see risk as entirely a matter of losing ships, not time. Carebears want to compete in a way that isn't based around combat, even though combat is what drives the economy that makes carebearing profitable. Pvpers want nice ships and modules because it will help them compete with other players; Carebears want them for their own percieved value.

What's ironic is that a virtual possession has EXACTLY the same value as beating someone in virtual combat: whatever value a player attaches to it. Declaring that your own virtual accomplishments are better than someone elses when you judge them by an entirely different standard is just silly, and there is no more respectful way to put it.

Most especially, to read dozens of hardened pvpers complaining that NOTHING would get people out of high sec except for absolute safety is surprising. Let me tell you, the next time I'm flying solo around low-sec in my indy I'm going have something to think about.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.02 21:53:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Quote:
I'm sorry you joined a ****ty alliance. They happen; there are better ones. Likewise your corp, come to that. A good corp will value the least of its members above the whole of it's alliance.


That's what I thought, so I tried a few more.

Next alliance: Shoved us in a box (one system) and told us not to come out. Fired on us if we did.

Next alliance: By this time I'd started to have a bar of things (and I was a director at this time) so I setup a high-sec recruitment cell as part of our corp to feed players into low/0.0.
Promptly got demanded to close up and come fight the war, or they'd kick the corp. Apparently one player feeding numerous players into the war wasn't 'fighting the war'. I left the corp to save them the trouble.

Next alliance: Corp I joined was cool, but then out came the demands from the alliance for mandatory POS defence/offense ops or they'd get CEOs to boot people, with no way I could *reasonably* attend given my timezone.

That's the main ones in a nutshell, in the north, south and east of EVE.


All I can say is that I've been lucky, I suppose.

ramification
Posted - 2008.11.02 22:06:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: ramification on 02/11/2008 22:12:16
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

Promptly got demanded to close up and come fight the war, or they'd kick the corp. Apparently one player feeding numerous players into the war wasn't 'fighting the war'. I left the corp to save them the trouble.


Quoted for lunacy of the Alliance involved.

Imagine how much more effective Alliances would be at waging wars if they recognised the "ten non-combatants to every soldier" rule that applies in the real world. Trouble is, they'd have to recruit the non-combatants and let them live in territory they personally fought for and "own", for a greater risk/effort/reward ratio than the non-combatants would get in high-sec. So instead they get dozens of alts in an attempt to replicate the effect of large numbers of real players, avoid setting up any sort of economy, and lose their territory because they run out of money or energy.

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2008.11.02 22:07:00 - [227]
 

Would people go into lowsec if the only change was that CCP disabled warp scramblers/disruptors? Perhaps keeping the proposed MWD-disabling effect.

I think that could work.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2008.11.02 22:31:00 - [228]
 

Make high sec more dangerous.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.11.02 22:33:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
Would people go into lowsec if the only change was that CCP disabled warp scramblers/disruptors? Perhaps keeping the proposed MWD-disabling effect.

I think that could work.
The carebears might. The question is if the PvPers would go there after that kind of change… ugh

phanthom chancer
Posted - 2008.11.02 22:38:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: phanthom chancer on 02/11/2008 22:38:37
Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
Would people go into lowsec if the only change was that CCP disabled warp scramblers/disruptors? Perhaps keeping the proposed MWD-disabling effect.

I think that could work.


I really, really hope you aren't serious. Shocked

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.11.02 23:01:00 - [231]
 

Quote:
Make high sec more dangerous.

And what's that going to do, besides result in CCP losing a ton of money when half EVE's population quit?

Because low sec makes less cash for a carebear than high sec (and quicker sales too), and nullsec alliances are less-than-optimal sales since "We all deserve a discount coz we're fighting to defend you (and will kill you if you don't).

Unless you make high sec less safe than low sec (which'd just make no sense)

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.11.02 23:24:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Clair Bear
Why do people keep equating nullsec to lowsec? Nullsec is a fertile farmland *PACKED FULL* of carebears.


This.

And for the OP, absolutely nothing. Why force them, who cares?

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.11.02 23:46:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:17:09
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:04:57 Various incoherencies
Empire carebears need to learn that living in low or no sec is a skill. Just as jet can mining or mission running is a skill. You don't need a skill book but you do have to learn how to do it.

There is nothing in this thread that does not have a defense that is taught by your low or no sec corp. Its just a matter of education.
I have a problem with that statement, as will be identified below. For now, though, please explain to me why in order to play Eve I should be forced to put up with the 50-100% tax rates and enforced playstyle I often see from those low and no sec corps.

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
Get out of the "me and my alts corp" mindset and join a low or no sec corp. Bring your friends with you. You'll have more fun doing something new (and yes dying) than you will sucking veldspar in empire. If a corp is in low/no sec they have a way to make isk where they are living or they wouldn't be there. And more than in empire. Join in and learn something new and see for yourself what is profitable and what is not. *snip - moveed for related content*

Eve is not a single player game. You need friends. You may still die, but you can also die piloting a freighter to Jita.
Who says? You may sermonize all you want about the NEED to join a corp, but I'd like you to please back it up with something in the official literature that states that the Devs intend for everyone to join a player corp. Oddly, given the fact that you are allowed to stay in an NPC corp as long as you wish, it seems just the opposite is true. Yes, the corporate playstyle is fun and engaging for you. It might even make lowsec safer. But it is not for everyone, and you shouldn't expect that. Nor does the condescending attitude help make people receptive to your point.

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
*** FREE LESSON ***
The part about the miners getting ganked makes me laugh. When you see a neutral jump into system, you should go somewhere safe. What? Everyone is neutral to you? You didn't see them jump in? That means you don't have standings set and you don't have local open. You are not paying attention. Get in a corp with standings set, open local and pay attention to your surroundings and your tension level will diminish greatly.
Nice. So, the time lost in hiding from all of those people with the red is productive, happy time for you, I take it? I know it wasn't for me. I had my standings all set, so it wasn't that...it was the utter frequency with which hostile neighbors and unknowns tended to pop up. Made getting any mining done hard. At the end of the day, even if they don't catch you napping and pop your ship, there is no profit in sitting in a station waiting for them to decide you aren't coming out. In the end, your solution isn't one at all.

You might say that I should join a larger low-sec corp, or even an alliance. As long as you stay in low, though, no one is going to want to sit and defend a bunch of miners - not with enough ships to make it work. Go to 0.0 and the alliances and you start running into massive taxes and mandatory PvP, which I have no interest in. So, sermonizer - how does joining a corp and "living in low sec skill" REALLY fix all of the problems listed in this thread?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.02 23:51:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:17:09
Edited by: Dessa DesPlains on 02/11/2008 16:04:57 Various incoherencies
Empire carebears need to learn that living in low or no sec is a skill. Just as jet can mining or mission running is a skill. You don't need a skill book but you do have to learn how to do it.

There is nothing in this thread that does not have a defense that is taught by your low or no sec corp. Its just a matter of education.
I have a problem with that statement, as will be identified below. For now, though, please explain to me why in order to play Eve I should be forced to put up with the 50-100% tax rates and enforced playstyle I often see from those low and no sec corps.

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
Get out of the "me and my alts corp" mindset and join a low or no sec corp. Bring your friends with you. You'll have more fun doing something new (and yes dying) than you will sucking veldspar in empire. If a corp is in low/no sec they have a way to make isk where they are living or they wouldn't be there. And more than in empire. Join in and learn something new and see for yourself what is profitable and what is not. *snip - moveed for related content*

Eve is not a single player game. You need friends. You may still die, but you can also die piloting a freighter to Jita.
Who says? You may sermonize all you want about the NEED to join a corp, but I'd like you to please back it up with something in the official literature that states that the Devs intend for everyone to join a player corp. Oddly, given the fact that you are allowed to stay in an NPC corp as long as you wish, it seems just the opposite is true. Yes, the corporate playstyle is fun and engaging for you. It might even make lowsec safer. But it is not for everyone, and you shouldn't expect that. Nor does the condescending attitude help make people receptive to your point.

Originally by: Dessa DesPlains
*** FREE LESSON ***
The part about the miners getting ganked makes me laugh. When you see a neutral jump into system, you should go somewhere safe. What? Everyone is neutral to you? You didn't see them jump in? That means you don't have standings set and you don't have local open. You are not paying attention. Get in a corp with standings set, open local and pay attention to your surroundings and your tension level will diminish greatly.
Nice. So, the time lost in hiding from all of those people with the red is productive, happy time for you, I take it? I know it wasn't for me. I had my standings all set, so it wasn't that...it was the utter frequency with which hostile neighbors and unknowns tended to pop up. Made getting any mining done hard. At the end of the day, even if they don't catch you napping and pop your ship, there is no profit in sitting in a station waiting for them to decide you aren't coming out. In the end, your solution isn't one at all.

You might say that I should join a larger low-sec corp, or even an alliance. As long as you stay in low, though, no one is going to want to sit and defend a bunch of miners - not with enough ships to make it work. Go to 0.0 and the alliances and you start running into massive taxes and mandatory PvP, which I have no interest in. So, sermonizer - how does joining a corp and "living in low sec skill" REALLY fix all of the problems listed in this thread?


o man are you missing the point...

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.11.03 00:50:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Annaphera on 03/11/2008 00:51:34
Originally by: Malcanis
o man are you missing the point...


1) Most people are listing the reasons why low sec is unprofitable/not fun for non-PvP-style players.
2) Someone spoke up and stated that all of the problems that people are listing would go away if they just learned to play in low sec and joined a corp. An example of an issue that would be fixed was given.
3) I responded that the issue was not in fact fixed, in this case because the miner's time would still not be spent actually making a profit. The corp and/or method mentioned would not make low sec profitable for the player.

What point am I missing? I think the issues that keep non-PvPers like myself out of low sec could not be easily fixed by simply having us join a corp and learning some work arounds, because that would just make low sec unprofitable/not fun for us in a different way, and that's the real issue. So long as the very rules of low sec make it less profitable than high or null sec, there is no chance most non-PvP players will enter it. Also, many of us won't play there because losing everything we've gained in our free time when some dink pops our industrial with his HAC is not FUN. We want and deserve to have fun, the same as he does. Or else CCP needs to come out and SAY the game is meant for the fun of said dink, so we can take our time and money elsewhere. As others keep saying - trying to force non-PvP players into low sec will do nothing but force them to quit.

Beefy McSlab
Posted - 2008.11.03 01:30:00 - [236]
 

- Short time, high reward missions that need a pvp fit ship to complete.
- Intruders on missions spawn additional ships that attack THEM.

This would allow mission runners (and pirates) to running low-sec missions while keeping risk relatively low (not removing it). Additionally it brings more people to low-sec that should be able to provide a fight.

I think more mission runners would come to low-sec, but pve fits are really useless against pvp fit ships.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.11.03 02:13:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 03/11/2008 02:13:31
The only thing keeping me from lowsec is the battleship and tackler sitting on the lowsec side of that gate.

The only thing keeping me from staying in lowsec longer than required to take fuel to the POS is ... well... the lack of anything to do there that doesn't cost me more ships than I can replace.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.11.03 02:51:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/11/2008 02:57:39

I can't express how little I care about what sec level people hang out in. It's largely irrelevant anyway since there are bears, morons, macroers, Ebayers, whiners, all-around lamers and chodes and yes, sometimes even competent players in every type of system. That said, Low Sec needs changes to make it serve a purpose in the broader game. After those changes are implemented most people will still be sticking to the sec level they feel comfortable in and I'll continue not caring about what that sec level is, but also rest easier knowing that the brokenness of today's Low Sec has been fixed.

What matters to me is that Eve sticks to its founding principles of sandbox style play with a hard-line model for risk v. reward. A couple people in this thread make the assumption that by making the game riskier a bunch of people will cancel their accounts. They neglect to mention what will happen after the lamers leave, namely:

1. Eve became popular for being the riskiest mainstream MMO on the market
2. The account vacancies left by the guys who can't handle High Sec will be taken up by brand new subscribers attracted to the challenge of Eve

It's flawed reasoning to assume that just because a game is harder it will get fewer people to sign up, especially when the game was built around a reputation for being risky.

High Sec, Low Sec, and Nullsec all have features I'd like to see tweaked, added, or subtracted but most of that is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that the best way to get people to spend more time in Low Sec isn't to buff missions or whatever, but to force them to go to Low Sec by making essential elements of the game centered around those systems. The permanent relocation of most of the low-end ore supply out of High Sec is a good place to start. Nerfing High Sec mission drops is another essential move. Both of these actions are designed to decrease High Sec residents' ability to obtain modules at what we today would consider reasonable prices unless Low Sec industry steps up to the plate. With buy orders falling, enterprising industrialists will organize Low Sec industrial corps so they can get what they need to supply High Sec and make a steady income. More industrialists in Low Sec means more targets for pirates, which means more work for mercenaries who will protect the industrialists. Presto, more people in Low Sec.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.11.03 03:23:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/11/2008 02:57:39A couple people in this thread make the assumption that by making the game riskier a bunch of people will cancel their accounts. They neglect to mention what will happen after the lamers leave, namely:

1. Eve became popular for being the riskiest mainstream MMO on the market
2. The account vacancies left by the guys who can't handle High Sec will be taken up by brand new subscribers attracted to the challenge of Eve

It's flawed reasoning to assume that just because a game is harder it will get fewer people to sign up, especially when the game was built around a reputation for being risky.
No. Many times no. It's not that making the game riskier will make people leave - it is forcing them to play in a style they have no wish to play in.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
High Sec, Low Sec, and Nullsec all have features I'd like to see tweaked, added, or subtracted but most of that is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that the best way to get people to spend more time in Low Sec isn't to buff missions or whatever, but to force them to go to Low Sec by making essential elements of the game centered around those systems. The permanent relocation of most of the low-end ore supply out of High Sec is a good place to start. Nerfing High Sec mission drops is another essential move. Both of these actions are designed to decrease High Sec residents' ability to obtain modules at what we today would consider reasonable prices unless Low Sec industry steps up to the plate. With buy orders falling, enterprising industrialists will organize Low Sec industrial corps so they can get what they need to supply High Sec and make a steady income. More industrialists in Low Sec means more targets for pirates, which means more work for mercenaries who will protect the industrialists. Presto, more people in Low Sec.
...or no one playing the game that isn't already in low sec or null. Do you honestly think that if you force them to, most people will just accept that the purpose of their leisure time is to make a big fat target of themselves for someone they have no hope of escaping or defeating? Do you think the Gatecamp vs Industrial match-up is in any way enjoyable for the guy in the indy? Forcing people into a playstyle they don't want is a no-win for the game...all it will do is force people to find a different game.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.11.03 04:23:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/11/2008 04:23:04
Originally by: Annaphera
---


Nobody would be forced into anything. When I used the word "force" in my earlier post what I meant was that if people want to maintain a market where consumers can really stretch ISK rather far then miners would be required to enter Low Sec to gather the lower-end ores in bulk quantities.

Saying that people shouldn't be forced to accept a playstyle they aren't comfortable with is only okay if interpreted in a certain fashion. The correct interpretation IMO would be "you can play however you want in Eve as long as you accept the consequences." This would mean that if my suggestion for Low Sec being the hub for low-end ore collection were implemented then miners could either go there or accept inflated prices for T1 items. Of course T2 items already require Low and Nullsec components to build so those wouldn't necessarily be affected by the ore change quite as much.

The main reason that I don't like statements such as
Quote:
play in a style they have no wish to play in

is because interpreted in the wrong way and taken to the logical extreme this statement turns into "nobody should be susceptible to non-consensual actions by other players", which is clearly antithetical to the Eve philosophy.


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