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Dextrome
Posted - 2008.11.19 21:54:00 - [451]
 

Ccp will NEVER come up with something cool or profitable enough to get lots of people to lowsec. Even if lv4's were moved and payout increased by 4 times, still wouldn't work. Pirates would just camp those systems. Face it, will never happen. I'm someone who likes to go to lowsec to look for trouble but most people in highsec will never leave. I hope i'm wrong would make the game a lot more fun.

Lazy8s
Posted - 2008.11.19 22:10:00 - [452]
 

Edited by: Lazy8s on 19/11/2008 22:14:05
Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?

If yes, he is not all powerful.
If no, he is not all powerful.
Therefore God cannot be all powerful.

Can CCP make carebears want to risk losing large amounts of time in PvP?

I find it interesting that in a "sandbox" game CCP takes issue with the way people choose to play the game. If people should be allowed to do anything in Eve that does not hurt someone else (like hacking, etc) then carebears are not a problem. What CCP means, then, is that they want to give lowsec PvPers more targets. So the question changes from "How do we get carebears into lowsec?" to "How do we give the PvPers more targets?" and the only answer is make it easier to lose a ship.

If you read ANY carebear response so far it is "nerf gatecamps" or "make mining worth more" or some variation of "I don't want to lose my ship." The issue then is not gatecamps or roid value, etc; it is about how damn much it costs to lose a ship if you only have 1 account. If ship prices were reduced by 75% you would see a LOT of carebears go into lowsec AND they would be more inclined to be your PvP targets.

I have been in 0.0 since before I could fly a BS simply because Ascendant Frontier could provide me with essentially 99% safety. I could rat in a BC and quickly recoup my losses. However, I never would have gone otherwise. Right now what you see is the effect of T2 ship prices. Most low/null sec players have high skill points and/or two accounts. One to earn money with and one to PvP with. For people with only 1 account, like myself, I will NEVER be able to keep up with that so I have to choose very carefully when I go into low/null sec. You always hear "Don't fly more than you can afford to lose" which is why most carebears NEVER go out into low/null sec. If all they have are 5-6 hours per week they cannot go on a large corp op and they cannot afford to fly anything worthy of solo/small gang PvP. If a Cerberus were 10mil isk though, I would be out PvPing it up every night.

Perhaps instead of looking at how to force people to risk huge amounts of their time (I realize it is just 1 ship but that ship can easily take 2-3 days for a new player to farm) why not make it a significantly smaller chunk of their time? If rewards are all that is increased you won't see many people venture out.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.19 22:58:00 - [453]
 

To get the bulk of Eve Carebears into low sec and 0.0, make the following possible:

#1: The ability to significantly improve their bottom line profits, even after repeatedly having to replace their ships and cargo due to loses.

#2: ALSO, the ability to exceed typical pirate income when doing #1.

#3: AND the ability to do #1 and #2 with casual play, including a lot of afk in space.

In short, make low sec "low hassle" AND "high profit" at the same time.

Don't hold your breath waiting for this.

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.20 11:18:00 - [454]
 

The answer to the original question is quite simple really,
in low populated areas the 'Carebears' as you so politely term us often venture into low/null sec as there is actually so fun to be had. Where all of the PvP (I'm gonna kill everything I see) Players are we no longer go, who would seriously go mining in a hulk with gatecamps etc waiting for the chance to kill you?
There is no way whatsoever that will get 'carebears' to go into areas where POD killers are around, if we went in a cheap ship and lost it, so what, we can always build another, if we are POD killed again and again then we don't.
Stop trying to POD kill every man and his dog, blow up our ships or even let us pay a tax to pass through, we are not stupid, if we are POD killed by you every time we venture near then we no longer will.
I guess it must be your thing to get your daily kill mail, how cool is it in your T2 cruiser to overcome a deadly hauler or mining barge ? Must be a lot of satisfaction in overcoming the odds on that one ?
While all of the PvP pilots with their multiple accounts and large alliances continue to bloackade and kill all new entrants into low/null sec then only the stupid or ignorant will go to be shot at by you.
So there is the answer, nothing will get the majority of 'carebears' into low/null sec until the POD killers grow up a bit and take on something their own size.

0vermind
Posted - 2008.11.20 11:38:00 - [455]
 

Edited by: 0vermind on 20/11/2008 11:38:40
what well take my there quality corp

today corps make OPS and u must go and also bring a ships that your corp alliance expect from your own pocket
sry but i dont fight for someone epeen using my money when a corp/alliance will provide free ships to go in OPS i will go in 0.0 or low sec

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.20 12:24:00 - [456]
 

Quote:
In short, make low sec "low hassle" AND "high profit" at the same time.


It would make it a 2. 0.0. The lone Pirate or small Gang will disapeer and big Corps/Alliances will take over, same like in 0.0. Not realy a good solution, well allready got 0.0 for this.

Quote:
There is no way whatsoever that will get 'carebears' to go into areas where POD killers are around, if we went in a cheap ship and lost it, so what, we can always build another, if we are POD killed again and again then we don't.


Pod killing is next to impossible in Low Sec without Smartbombs, Lag or a speced ship for this(Ceptor with SB).

Quote:
Stop trying to POD kill every man and his dog, blow up our ships or even let us pay a tax to pass through, we are not stupid, if we are POD killed by you every time we venture near then we no longer will.


Ransom is a bit spoiled, because of the low Ship and T2 prices most people donīt bother any more. The bad paying habit of many people donīt make it better, many try to hold you there till they get reinforcements or discussing about price for ages. Also you should say thank you to many people posting crap about never pay ransome on Forums, because it made real ransoms so hard that many people stoped bother about it.

Quote:
today corps make OPS and u must go and also bring a ships that your corp alliance expect from your own pocket sry but i dont fight for someone epeen using my money when a corp/alliance will provide free ships to go in OPS i will go in 0.0 or low sec


Beeing in a Alliance or Corp donīt mean give free ships and I do what I should. It never worked good(I was Co Ceo of a semi komunist Corp for some time). It only rewards the lazy people while putting a big penalty on the people that have to do the work in the end(Ships/Mods are not free, somebody have to make the ISK for it).
Also most people that want anything for free donīt want to work for free to(giving all gains to the Corp in return).

Also I learned, it doesnīt matter how many Ships\Stuff you give to a player, people will still avoid risk or crashing them this rapid that you have to reduce her selection to Frigs and some cheap Cruisers. Rolling Eyes

For example as a senior Member in my current Corp, I droped Frigs, Cruiser, a BS and a large Amount of T2/Named Gear as well as 100k of the most common used Faction Amnos each into the Corp Hangar before our last war. Also I add a 250 M expensive BS to our Gangs what I have to replace on my own if I loose it while the younger members mostly use the free Ships and Mods from the Hangar. Beeing in a Corp and beeing a active Part of the Corp are 2 pair of shoes and nothing comes for free, but reqires hard work to archive the end goal -> sucsess in a Team and froming a working Corp out of individual Players.

Then again, I refere to my post one page ago. Experience that you will get on your own by studdy trying and learning or a good Corp will get you to the point where you learn to protect yourself and your Corp. Doing this at your own requires a risk advertising player, dooing it with your Corp requires a Teamplayer, 2 things most High Sec Dweller lack unfortunaly.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.20 12:28:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
To get the bulk of Eve Carebears into low sec and 0.0, make the following possible:

#1: The ability to significantly improve their bottom line profits, even after repeatedly having to replace their ships and cargo due to loses.

#2: ALSO, the ability to exceed typical pirate income when doing #1.

#3: AND the ability to do #1 and #2 with casual play, including a lot of afk in space.

In short, make low sec "low hassle" AND "high profit" at the same time.

Don't hold your breath waiting for this.



Originally by: ouroboros trading


you cannot offer huge isk (though exploration can be rewarding :OP) as possible recompense for the risk of being blown up; any source of big isk will be dominated and farmed by the powers that be.

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.20 12:54:00 - [458]
 

I originally tried to bring some sense to this place.

Problem 1: PvP players want more targets ?

Problem 2: 'Carebears' don't want to be PvP targets ?

Solution 1: PvP players kill your own hauler alts or other PvP players alts for your easy kill mails ?

Solution 2: 'Carebears don't go to Low/Null sec to be killed by PvP, or is this already happened ?

Morale of the story is simple, people who want to log on and enjoy killing a few bad guys, mining a few rocks and generally having fun are in no way ever going to venture permenantly into low/null sec to be victims or kill mail, player pirates have effectively shut and locked the door to low sec to anyone apart from other PvP players, so the future of the game is an ever increasing divide where you are either in or a carebear.
The players of the game have created this divide through their own supremacy syndrone, now everyone has to live with it. Yes it is annoying and spoils the game a little but at the end of the day I will continue playing in high sec with the multitude of players while low/null sec slowly stagnates into the same old faces and their alt's.

Ravenja
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.11.20 13:13:00 - [459]
 

So you want more carebears in lowsec just to have more targets to shoot at?
Obviously there are more than enough of them to make piracy profitable, otherwise we wouldn't have so many pirates...

As it is the risk is just to high for carebears to make more than just occasional passes through lowsec. There's no way they'd stand a chance against a PvP gang. Lose -> no incentive. Just increasing potential profit is not enough IMO and would account for much frustration.

Some suggestions that could help a bit:

- Reduce the discrepancy between fitting needs for PvE compared to PvP. That way a mission runner could at least have a chance against a solo PvPer.
- Protection convoy type contract. Interesting for traders.
- Insurance for hauled goods and fittings.
- No more gatecamps.
- Make podkilling more difficult

Radu Dragunov
Minmatar
Laputa Incorporated
Posted - 2008.11.20 13:21:00 - [460]
 

The original poster has danced around the answer to the question, but has approached it from the wrong end. Us industrialists aren't averse to risk in any shape or form. We simply want the rewards to be commensurate with the risks.

Most PVPers, being consumers only, do not recognize what goes into making those pretty toys they like to blow up. They do not recognize that, in order to get those pretty toys, someone had to mine the ore, refine it into materials, and then build the toys.

Each one of those steps requires that the person involved be free to pursue his industry either without being at risk of being ganked, or with the risk of being ganked lower than the rewards of the associated effort.

This can be accomplished in a number of ways:

1. PVPers don't gank industrialists. (As if that's ever going to happen.)

2. PVPers contract with an industrialist to provide defense in exchange for a better price on their pretty toys. (Say, for instance, a percentage discount on the price of that shiny new BC in exchange for protecting the industrialist while he mines the ore, or delivers it to the lowsec station, or whatever.)

3. PVPers bring industrialists into their corp, and provide cover for their corp members while they're mining, refining, etc., the same way they provide cover for their corp members who are gatecamping.

4. You fill in this one. I'm sure there are enough creative people here to do that, ne?

Do any of these things, and you'll find more industrialists who are willing to risk the wild and wooly. I know I wouldn't be out in lowsec if I weren't part of a corp that watches out for its industrialists.

Nazriel Flatliner
Posted - 2008.11.20 14:45:00 - [461]
 

First off I run missions, lots of missions. I mainly run missions in Hi-Sec because you only have to worry about the pinheads that want to steal your salvage or steal from your cans. Annoying, but easy to deal with. I occasionally run missions in Low-Sec. Even with higher bounties, LP, Rewards they are still inferior to the average IV mission. I am relatively safe taking my facton/deadspace fit anywhere in .5 to 1.0 and it is so much faster to clear a mission there with that. I have been killed more times hauling my loot to Jita than in Low-Sec.

When I do missions in systems lower that .5 I am relegated to using a Battle Cruiser or a cheap Battleship, both of them make the mission take much longer and makes the risk of getting killed just by the rats higher.

Having spent some time thinking about ways that I would rather run missions I have come up with a couple of things that I would consider.

Add more stations to .1 to .5 systems, and then put mission agents in each station. There is not that many agents that are worth using and they are all in camped systems.

Remove the Low Sec Barrier. I still am at a loss why for some reason .4 systems and lower are unmanned by CONCORD. There is really no punishment for anti-social behavior, that I can see, beyond restricting players from .5 systems and up. I propose that we make it a sliding scale. 0.0 = -10. 0.1 = -9.9 - 9.0. .2 = 8.9 - 8.0. 1.0 = <0 etc.

For heavens sake please buy CONCORD some scan probe launchers. The current CONCORD system we have is more like a traffic cop than police. They show up after the battle is over and issue tickets and reports. Allow CONCORD to scan the system for any pirates that are in a system lower than the sec status and make their life a little tougher. This will make sure that they at least carry a cloak.

Make sec status loss permanent. After you are below -2.0 you can only loose sec status. Again make antisocial behavior have some real punishment.

I also fail to understand why when a agent gives me a mission and a jump gate to get there they do not defend it. Put some defenses at the agent jump gates that will shoot pirates that try to use them.

Put guns at all gates into/out of systems that will shoot anyone that has a sec status lower than the system they are in.

Even up the system and put in scrambling/webbing towers at the agent gates. It is almost impossible to fit a ship out for both missions and defense. Maybe give them a rage of 30km or something at the lower systems. If you cant run a missions without warping out you should use agents in the higher systems

My 2 ISK.

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2008.11.20 15:09:00 - [462]
 

This thread should be renamed how do I get easy kills.

16 Pages of players complaining that people don't line up so they can be killed Rolling Eyes


Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.20 15:23:00 - [463]
 

This thread is stupid. It's started by someone who is some 0.0 drone and wants to change low-sec into 0.0 light. It's full of whiny carebears asking for low-sec to be made into high-sec (we could really rename the thread to "how do I make more riskless ISK?"). It's got some failures who fail at piracy altogether. That preety much sums up the thread.

Q to carebears: what would get you into low-sec/0.0?
A: absence of risk, just like in high-sec

Now, why are we having this discussion at all?

Low-sec is fine. Get over yourselves.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2008.11.23 01:02:00 - [464]
 

Disallow pod-killing (or make pod-killing concordable) in low sec, and then I only lose my insured ship and fittings. Right now, to have a chance in hell of catching up, I need my +4's in my head at all times. I can handle losing an insurable cheaply fitted ship for kicks, I can't afford losing my implants (and soon, buying a new clone) all the time.

I guess another option would be to get rid of the 24 hour timer on jump clones, maybe instead enforce a maximum of 4 jumps per day. That would let me play twice a day in low sec, and otherwise continue my skill training.



Kavin Alavandar
Extropy Dianoetics
Posted - 2008.11.23 01:15:00 - [465]
 

I stay in high-security space because I don't have to means to establish anything that can be sustained in low-security or null-security space, and I don't like any of the corporations or alliances I see already established out there. It really is that simple, for me.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.11.23 01:19:00 - [466]
 

Edited by: Armoured C on 23/11/2008 01:19:18
Originally by: chatgris
concordable) in low sec





quote for fail


it not low sec if concord are still there

Kavin Alavandar
Extropy Dianoetics
Posted - 2008.11.23 01:25:00 - [467]
 

I don't know about that. As it is, there is a much greater difference between highsec and lowsec than between lowsec and nullsec. That would be a way of making progression through them steadier, though I'm not sure it's the best way.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.23 03:23:00 - [468]
 

static gate camps, static belts = fail

carebears appear on gates and go into belts sometimes - pirates have it too easy

finding mission pocket is not hard, however it is simpler to gank the mission runner on the other side of the gate.

if you want combat targets, join FW militia or aggress rival pirates in low sec, if you want unprotected targets for easy money, you are not likely to get them.

Making money by killing haulers doesn't benefit the haulers, they will avoid you as they are interested in maximizing their wealth. Combat pilots are interested in a fight, they have fun in showing off spaceship muscles, competing for domination and threatening other pilots. If you want to see more combat pilots, play fair, do not blob or try to cheat on your opponent, a larger fleet may scare off potential enemy gangs.

Give your opponent a chance and he will use it, otherwise look for a new opponent. Opponent - someone willing to fight you. Carebears don't make a good fight anyway, if you need income find a profession, don't expect carebears to be your everyday target.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.23 03:37:00 - [469]
 

Originally by: Opertone
Carebears don't make a good fight anyway, if you need income find a profession


Killing carebears is a profession.

Originally by: chatgris
Disallow pod-killing (or make pod-killing concordable) in low sec, and then I only lose my insured ship and fittings. Right now, to have a chance in hell of catching up, I need my +4's in my head at all times. I can handle losing an insurable cheaply fitted ship for kicks, I can't afford losing my implants (and soon, buying a new clone) all the time.

I guess another option would be to get rid of the 24 hour timer on jump clones, maybe instead enforce a maximum of 4 jumps per day. That would let me play twice a day in low sec, and otherwise continue my skill training.



There's two (well, ok, three) ways to lose a pod in low-sec:
(a) Landing in a SB camp while flying something paperthin like a untanked frigate/interceptor.
(b) Insanely horrible lag.
(c) Being utterly clueless (pay 50M, you will become less utterly clueless).



Stephen Jones
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.11.29 09:39:00 - [470]
 

Proposal to make missions a scarce resource

Make the number of missions available per single agent per period of time fixed and limited. If mission runners fulfill all the missions available at a single agent, they have the option of moving to another agent that has not been depleted yet, or waiting until the missions replenish.

Additional possibility is to create an auction-like system, where mission runners can bid on a mission from a list of missions available from that agent. The player that offers the lowest cost can win the bidding and be allowed to start the mission. Because many missions have the majority of profit within the bounties and loot, players should be allowed to bid a negative cost for the mission (in effect paying for the privilege of being sent on the mission).

Personal experiences with lowsec with my corp

My main's corporation is a mainly highsec industrialist carebear corp. We used to regularly mine in lowsec as a group and sometimes also ran missions in lowsec, either individually or as a group. We don't, any more. Why? Because it's no longer worth our time. Angry feelings aside, assuming we are willing to risk the gankers in lowsec, our problem is money.

I ran the numbers through the EVE ore calculator today, just to remind myself. The value of a single can of any non-nullsec ore is less than value of a can of veldspar, except for hedbergite, which nets you 10% more than a can of veldspar. This is not enough of a profit difference to risk lowsec. When a can of jaspet was 2, 3, or even 4 times the value of a can of veldspar, we didn't need any other incentive to risk lowsec, singly or as a group. We mined and missioned and ratted in lowsec, and made plans for POS, formed links with other corps doing the same, and fought over the turf occasionally.

I also checked with my corporation's mission runners. They usually run T2 or faction-fitted Ravens or Domis, usually worth 150 million upwards to more than a billion per ship in some cases. They run missions in near lowsec (0.5 space) and report income of about 10-15 million ISK per hour of dedicated mission running with good skills. If they ran the same missions in lowsec, they might yield maybe double that. Given cost of their ships, and how ill-suited they are to PvP, losing a single ship more often than once every two days would be ruinous for them (running 6 hour shifts daily, what few of us can afford to do). If lowsec income wanted to compete with highsec, they would have to make something like 4 times what highsec offers to offset the risk and potential losses.

Fix the incentives for mining (aka costs of minerals) and missioning (rewards, loot, bounties) and miners and missioners will go back to lowsec to earn more money. It's that simple.

P.S. You can fix things by making highsec pay less, or lowsec pay more. I personally don't care which, but others might complain either way.

Anna Tilton
Posted - 2008.11.29 11:14:00 - [471]
 

This will of course get flamed, but I really don't care. The solution to get people into Losec is not to force them there, but to make it more attractive. I suggest a remake to CONCORD mechanics.

1.0 - CONCORD always responds
0.9 - 98% chance CONCORD response
0.8 - 96% chance CONCORD response
0.7 - 94% chance CONCORD response
0.6 - 92% chance CONCORD response
0.5 - 90% chance CONCORD response
0.4 - 8% chance CONCORD response
0.3 - 6% chance CONCORD response
0.2 - 4% chance CONCORD response
0.1 - 2% chance CONCORD response
0.0 - CONCORD never responds

Lastly the CONCORD response in Losec should be large enough to pop a titan - you should never be able to tank them. Gate camps would be risky since sooner or later CONCORD will show up. Pirates might even get away with crimes in highsec (except true new player areas). Of course the numbers might have to be adjusted, but it could work and is true to EvE's concept, bringing risk to both highsec and losec.

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.11.29 11:40:00 - [472]
 

Edited by: NeoTheo on 29/11/2008 11:40:42
in 0,0 - its not a mechanics problem, its simple.

more allainces with CVA's attitude ;)


Psilocin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.11.29 23:36:00 - [473]
 

Edited by: Psilocin on 29/11/2008 23:35:53
This is by far the dumbest thread and/or concept that has ever been conceived in the history of EVE.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2008.11.30 01:09:00 - [474]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 30/11/2008 01:19:35
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 30/11/2008 01:17:39
it's simple:

1:more level 5 agents spread thru a lot more systems and going beyong the usual 0.4 to 0.5 choke points....Make pvper's hunt down their prey,not have us served up in a silver platter.

2:Add a lot more belts in the average low sec empire system,increase the quality of the minerals and boost the spawns that are possible to find there....There are battleships roaming around in lvl 4 missions in high sec empire,so there should be some in low sec as well.

3:the ability to anchor larger structures,that while not quite like outposts in 0.0,are overall better than simply using POS's(factory slots,lab slots,etc),and gives the owners the incentive to actively defend them,since they are quite a bit more expensive than POS's.


For 0.0:

1:Most regions in 0.0 suck in terms of actual security status for the system itself,wich is what directly impacts the quality of available spawns,and the minerals available to mine in that system,for wich there should be a lot more belts on average,given the enphasis on capital ship production in 0.0.


2:higher amount of systems with a true -1.00 security status,wich is where officer spawns happen,cause right now,it's pathetic where there's 3000+ systems in 0.0 and only a handfull of systems that spawn officers.

3:Make the spawn rate of complexes,especially the tougher ones,spawn more frequently,wich makes for a nice change of pace from regular NPC farming and mining ops in 0.0.


In short,make both low sec empire and 0.0 space potentially a lot more profitable than in can be in high sec empire,since there's a lot of people there that simply limit themselves to doing level 4 missions,and pulling are in 20 to 30 million isk an hour,and those that do that and have other revenue streams make even more still,potentially a couple billion every month between multiple revenue streams,so what's the incentive to go to lower sec empire here?


At least some people may want to risk going there,not just for the thrill of PVP,but accepting the risk of PVP as long there theres the potential for more isk in their pocket,and that currently,is not even close to the reality right now.



Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.11.30 01:37:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Psilocin
Edited by: Psilocin on 29/11/2008 23:35:53
This is by far the dumbest thread and/or concept that has ever been conceived in the history of EVE.


If you only knew the true power of the darkside...

C.



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