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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:51:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
why do you think I wrote that industrialist have no place in low sec because they are actualy not needed as a profession ?
And I was remarking that your suggestion wouldn't increase that need. It doesn't "need to be done" because it wouldn't change anything.


well it's a first step in a needed direction ...

piracy should be about income ... not about killmail whoring ... a permanent sec status loss will force people to either piracy that's worth the sec status penalty or use wardecs ... sure there will be a part of the pirates that kill just for fun ...

basicaly pirates want more targets and working economy in lowsec without having to sacrifice anything ... that will not work ... you are imposing limits and sacrifices on the wrong part of the players ...

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.18 15:07:00 - [422]
 

Originally by: Lasus
Edited by: Lasus on 05/11/2008 02:33:41
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Actually, all it would take is teamwork, and rewards large enough to justify it.



I think the man has distilled the problem to its core.

I would love to be an arms dealer in low sec. I will admit I suck at combat, my character is set up for mining and industry. I know its dangerous to try to compare RL with EVE but in the real world arms dealers are not expected to fight. If a pirate group would just stop killing everyone and make a deal with industrial players to supply materials for them I think that would help open up the game. I see from other posts that the alliences and pirates have alts that do that for them.

Oh well I like to play with one account. It seems to me that as long as alts are around the teamwork side of the game for this is doomed to failure.

So I guess I will just keep plugging along maily in hi sec with occasional forays into low sec just to see what I can get away with. Wink



Hitting the nail with the hammer, I guess most PvP players have their alts to do all the mundane jobs for them, they POD kill solo account miners/industrials who are attempting to venture into low/null sec so they can have their kill mail and a quick giggle therefore sending the other players back to high sec realising they don't want to go back there.
PvP players are killing off any chance of players expanding into low/null sec. unless you are in an already establised corp in low sec then there really isn't much chance of getting in there.
So there is no reward or incentive for new players as miners/industrialists to venture into low sec unless as a target.
I would love to go and venture around in low/null sec but can't see the point in supplying someone with an easy kill mail, being POD killed does not seem like fun to me, so all of the PvP players will carry on hanging around gates killing anyone stupid enough to attempt to venture in and all the bears will stay in high sec sick of being killed in low/null.

Laiyna
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.18 15:57:00 - [423]
 

And here a very fitting post for the noobs who dont understand why lowsec is deserted.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=927079

Its not only what they did, but the attitude what comes with it.

Laiyna

Utopiana
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:02:00 - [424]
 

0.0 and low sec have the same problem, and as long it continues there will be no change to how they work.

The entire Eve universe are designed so that you have to go trough narrow doors to reach your destination.

Access is the que word, right now access in to 0.0 goes through low sec several areas then a link of systems called 0.0. This system favor gate camps as every person going in and out have to go the very same way.

when 4 people block a patway designed to hold 4 people wide the 5th will either just go there by mistake or by stupidity there is no more room, it's pointless that the room behind the pathway can hold 1000 people if you cant get in or out.

Ccp could have fixed gatecamps a long time ago if they wanted to an easy script on the gates that boosted every ship within 20km range with jump strenght enough to make no warpscramblers able to lock them down comming in or out of gates would solve it all.

That we have gotten more and more to boost the ability to gatecamp, only tells me that CCP indeed want to have gatecamps in the game and they wnt people able to lock down access to and from low sec-0.0. In short CCP don't want more people in 0.0 they want it to be harder.

Forcing Empire carebears to go to 0.0 with the current system by making empire less fun would only lead to less people of that type playing and paying for the game not make them move to 0.0.

If they want more people in 0.0 then make 0.0 more accessable for the casual players, right now 0.0 is designed for the unemployed full time eve players that is able to stick in 12 hours + each day in game or for people that belong to alliances that is supervised by the same full time eve players.

This discussion will be the same in 10 years from now!

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:15:00 - [425]
 

Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 18/11/2008 16:27:26

As a half carebear. I'd be more inclined to go to low sec if:

1. Jump clones were 12 hours not 24 hours.

2. There was some way to make more isk per hour then anything in highsec, regardless of risk.

3. Also, mining would have to be around 3x the value per unit compared to highsec to get me mining in lowsec. As it's near suicide.

I'd be more inclined to go to nullsec if :

1. If I was actually in an alliance.

2. There were more places to dock, places like the nullsec npc zones that weren't camped by huge alliances.

3. With there being no place to dock, you have to get in, somehow make a profit, then get out again, when everyone always camps the nullsec bottlenecks so if on getting out again you die, if your cargo was your profit, you wasted your last few hours.

I think I die on a nullsec bottleneck in around 1 in every 4 trips.. Hopefully the huge border gate patch has gone some way to addressing this.

Pretty simple really.

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.11.18 16:20:00 - [426]
 

Its not really harder to access 0.0 these days. There are plenty of Outposts you can dock at, making storing ships, loot, and safedocking up when hostiles come around much easier that in the past.

Add to that the "warp to zero" function, making it quite hard to catch people without timing a interdictor bubble before they warp to gate.

When it comes to safety in low sec, there is not really any way around it except accepting that you have to take part in the social structure in any given area.
Intel flow and common defence action to create safety for industrials.

Eventually such an area will even sustain solo players that isnt doing much beyond read intel and supply local lowsec market with goods/ships, fuel and minerals.

So basically it takes some effort beyond "just playing the game" Wink

Zektuuk
Minmatar
Mild Mannered Mining Militia
Posted - 2008.11.18 17:33:00 - [427]
 

If I come out there, will you suck my ****? No? Then **** you.

Donkee Punch
Council of Human Urban Meatshield Paratroopers
Posted - 2008.11.18 17:40:00 - [428]
 

Carebears just want to do their own thing without being molested. Aside from making it safer in low sec you won't be seeing them anytime soon.

A Carebear will only go to low or null sec IF they are part of a corp that can offer some modicum of safety. They have their own agenda, which does not coincide with yours .. Confused

ISquishWorms
Posted - 2008.11.18 17:48:00 - [429]
 

I am in low sector 0.1 mining in my rookie ship ( nothing to lose ) with my alternative character come find me and pod kill me if you want. Very Happy

Dalek Cero
Posted - 2008.11.18 17:52:00 - [430]
 

Edited by: Dalek Cero on 18/11/2008 18:06:19
Edited by: Dalek Cero on 18/11/2008 18:04:36
Edited by: Dalek Cero on 18/11/2008 17:56:55
Edited by: Dalek Cero on 18/11/2008 17:54:19
Originally by: Blastil
Edited by: Blastil on 31/10/2008 15:07:22
CCP has been emphasizing getting carebears and industrialists out into lowsec and nullsec in a non-PVP role. At every turn this has fallen through, since it seems carebears are all dead set against risk in any shape or form. This is understandable I suppose. Most people want to log on Friday and Saturday to run a few missions, change production jobs, and chat with a few friends. But without Miners/maufacturers in Nullsec and lowsec, as well as mission runners, Low/Nullsec will forever be gimpped, since PVPers are mostly consumers only. CCP has tried and met with only limited success to get these players into more risky space, so I'll ask this question, aimed mostly at carebears and industrialists.

What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?


Im already in nullsec :P. It would be nice if i could find agents easily so i dont have to spend hours in station browsing through random research agents to find the one that i need :\. pvpers easily forget who produces their TII yum yum in the first place :P. (blargh wrong character >>) I think more would venture out if it werent for the highsec station camping that lasts for 2 hours because you get some pointless wardec from pirate corps constantly i thought the wardec costs and empyrian age was enough to satisfy open pvp but i guess i thought wrong. I dont mind loosing ships, but theres too many times where it becomes a pointless waste to go out. When im not under an annoying wardec or in 0.0 space, i regularly go into lowsec because its more fun than in highsec and theres more chances of finding hidden sites that dont require BS fleets. Risk isnt really a problem, its risk without any possible reward and 100% chance of loss that makes things not worth it.

Valandria Koshun
Caldari
Morior Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.18 18:13:00 - [431]
 

Originally by: Donkee Punch
Carebears just want to do their own thing without being molested. Aside from making it safer in low sec you won't be seeing them anytime soon.

A Carebear will only go to low or null sec IF they are part of a corp that can offer some modicum of safety. They have their own agenda, which does not coincide with yours .. Confused


thats a good point, for myself i play maybe 6hours/week and in this time i just want to relax and in 00 or lowsec its not really possible

Essack Leadae
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.18 19:12:00 - [432]
 

I think that some carebears will go to low/null if the community begin to stop calling them carebears .

Indeed, I doubt that they can be motivated to go in null sec if they are always catalogued as an inferior "race" of players. Low/null sec has a good proportion of players who respect nothing, same if it is a game, and join them is not really attractive.

The community must begin to be more mature.

Second, killboards has a negative impact to the attractiveness of low/null sec. Same if they don't PVP, it is not good for the morale to know that your deaths are logged everywhere, and this don't help about social relations between them and PVP players. Something must be done to reduce this problem.

Last, high-sec players need better information about the meaning of low/null sec. That loss cost can be low, that there are some ways to have the benefits without have some annoying corp obligations (like FTZ or other systems) etc...

Saya Hikouka
New Age Solutions
Posted - 2008.11.18 20:10:00 - [433]
 

This is simply a game design issue. As long as space is segregated then this will continue to be a point of contention.

The simple answer is space needs to be completely open and it needs to be larger. If newbs are to survive they do it in the harshness of space. I'd be willing to bet ccp will not do this due to the cash cow syndrome. Which make this whole arguement null and void.

Game Ruiner
Posted - 2008.11.18 21:26:00 - [434]
 

nerf gatecamping.

1: 50KM no-fire zone around every gate and station that allows all ships to muster a reasonable defence before combat commences.

It stands to reason if you are camping a gate with unreasonable force, then i should be allowed to sit in a no-fire zone for sufficient time to muster a good enough PVP force of my own to run your "blockade".

Any PVP'r worth their salt would not complain at that, after all:

1: if you are setting up a blockade with the intention of disrupting supply lines then you have done your job, therefore it doesnt nerf alliance security operations.

2: anyone jumping in who doesnt like the odds can turn around safely and jump back out without engagement. its your choice if you then want to pursue them through that gate - thats the same rules naval combat undertakes - if i am steaming my ship towards 3 bigger ships am i a: forced to keep going or b: just going to turn around and leave.

3: if i decide to hold ground and wait for reinforcements, you can see them jumping in and the 50KM "no mans land" allows you time to disengage if i turn the odds against you by mounting a blockade busting force.

4: as a buff you can put up a bubble/use warp disruptors outside the 50KM zone, if my warp path crosses your bubble/warp disruptor you can suck me out of warp into combat the way the current nullsec bubbles can pull you 20KM beyond a gate.

While i agree nullsec/lowsec gates should be higher risk than empire, the current setup entirely favours gatecampers by allowing them a no-holds barred ambush where the only realistic prospect of escape was lots of speed, since CCP felt the need to nerf unreasonable speed as a "Iwin" button then it should also nerf gatecamping since they effectively shut down entire spacelanes with an ambush that is very, very difficult for the majority of solo ships to escape without resorting to special setups/meta gaming alts.

Camping has a valid place in Eve, but the current setup favours the campers entirely at the expense of victims.

But it wont happen simply because gatecamping has nothing to do with piracy (earning money from ransoming/stealing merchant cargo) and everything to do with lolnorisktome killmails, because every gatecamp ambush op i have been in and has flanked the gate with a carrier jump the camping force has run for the hills at the first sign of HACS, intys, Falcons and and carrier coming in from 200KM away from the gate i.e a credible PVP attack force.

The one exception to this and what i do like about gatecamps is the sheer comedy value of jumping in a smartithron for ****s n giggles.

And i actually support piracy, but there is a big difference between piracy and simply "if it moves shoot it" because good pirates historically made the best money from working both sides i.e pirating their enemy whilst getting protection money from their enemies force as a privateer. But in Eve Piracy has simply degenerating into "die noobz, i is the PVP god" then whining as the cannon fodder dries up.






The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.18 21:45:00 - [435]
 

Problem is not the ISK(at least in the first place). People go OMG after beeing shot down in Low Sec entry systems. Many of them are scared for a very long time or even the rest of her eve Time.

I had a preaty nice convo with one guy I have taken down in a enconuter, that asked me some things about my fitting and how I could take a point on him at 50km(Arazu Razz). During the chat he mentioned one thing many did to me in the last 2 years, it was his first time he actualy run into PVP in Eve. He also was quite supriced after I told him that im lost my first ship in Low sec short after Trail(he was over a year in Eve) and it is no big deal.

"You live and you learn." I told him, also some basic and advanced things I found out my self to give him a little advice what he could do better and he ofc a bit supicious taken my advice.

Personaly I see for Low Sec the Probem that most corps only are high sec based or not PVP oriented and so they fail to give the right advices. Also most people overestimate the Ship looses since it is a preaty unknown thing for them in High Sec.

Also Low Sec actualy dont realy payes, its there for the fun and should be treated like this. Shure it is possible to get ISK out of it but it is mutch easyer to get the same out of High Sec so most people dont bother. Actualy I would not say this is a bad thing since It preaty much keeps Low Sec out of big Alliance and Corp aims what makes it such a good place for people that want to do small Scale\Solo.

I preaty much think there are 2 things that can get you into Low Sec, first thing is fun, second is the Corp. I personaly would say for 0.0 its only the Allinace/Corp, because you are more and more restricted to Corp/Co ops there.


IxenBlaze
Gallente
Fighting While Intoxicated
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.11.18 22:40:00 - [436]
 

I think it can be summed up like this

1. nerf station camping (nerfing gate camping is a bit extreme imo)

2. add more sites for explorers please!

3. stop nerfing every means of running a blockade (first they nerf wcs with the HIC, now theyre nerfing speed ><)

4. make it so we can actually reduce the wait time for jump clones, 24 hours is too long especially for single account users.

I think lowsec is pretty rewarding in itself but more is always nice.

H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2008.11.19 15:56:00 - [437]
 

This is probably a crazy idea:

What if Concord puts bounties on every player with negative sec status? Bounties should vary automatically according to ship value so that the pirate has no gain from killing himself with an alt (reward < value of ship and fittings after insurance). And of course such bounties would only be paid to players with positive sec status.

Imagine you get 120M ISK for blowing up my battleship Very Happy - wouldn't that be sufficient motivation to venture into losec?

Discuss...

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.11.19 16:49:00 - [438]
 

Edited by: RedSplat on 19/11/2008 16:49:53
Originally by: H Lecter
This is probably a crazy idea:

What if Concord puts bounties on every player with negative sec status? Bounties should vary automatically according to ship value so that the pirate has no gain from killing himself with an alt (reward < value of ship and fittings after insurance). And of course such bounties would only be paid to players with positive sec status.

Imagine you get 120M ISK for blowing up my battleship Very Happy - wouldn't that be sufficient motivation to venture into losec?

Discuss...


I like this idea

EDIT: Unfortunately the definition of 'Carebear' makes it rather unlikely they would ever be in a position to pod you, let alone risk you, the ebil pirate, killing them

H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2008.11.19 17:03:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: RedSplat
I like this idea

EDIT: Unfortunately the definition of 'Carebear' makes it rather unlikely they would ever be in a position to pod you, let alone risk you, the ebil pirate, killing them


No need to pod me - the killer gets the prize for blowing up the ship, same like NPC rats but a hundred times tastier Very Happy

Dracthera
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.19 17:53:00 - [440]
 

There's simply no way of forcing carebears into losec/nullsec given the game mechanics right now. For some people, any risk is simply too great, and the rewards not worth it. CCP could make hisec completely useless for anyone other than newbs by implementing some drastic changes like:

a. change the material need of tritanium from having to build stuff so that emphasis is placed on losec ore, thereby completely collapsing hisec mining.
b. tie in mission rat bounties to system security in addition to the ship class so rats in hisec are worth much less, while at the same time dramatically reducing mission rewards for hisec
c. move up the hisec designation from 0.5 to 0.7 systems, thereby turning most of Empire into losec.
d. remove all but a few exploration sites from hisec.

Basically hisec would have to become essentially starting areas where newbs get a chance to get a feel for all aspects of the game without getting rich off it.

As a carebear (for now) who enjoys playing this game solo, I can tell you such changes may just get me to quit the game, of course. So for me and many others, the answer to the question 'What would get YOU into low and nullsec' right now would be nothing but an interest in seeing what else is out there. I've been into losec and nullsec out of curiosity, and got popped several times. The only lesson I learned was that I got popped, nothing else. Hurray... =/ I'll eventually consider joining a 0.0 corp to get into PvP, but basically I don't want to have to deal with other people in the game - I get enough of that IRL, and it's something I want to escape, not continue, in-game.

Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:13:00 - [441]
 

Edited by: Tsual on 19/11/2008 18:16:43
Well lone miners and industrials don't have that much problem most things in low sec can be dealt with in one way or the other. However neither kernite and omber already present in high sec are worth the increased logistical ammount and jaspet, hedbergite, and hemorphite can be substituted by pyroxeresl, reprocessing the correct loot and pressing the buy button on the market - speaking about the small yield of zydrin.

One way I could see more industrials or at least miners eventually venturing out into low sec would be to make hemorphite and hedbergite in some way special, not by increasing their yield but something else.

One idea that is bouncing around in my head is the introduction of some kind of catalysators that increase the refining yield yet are optionally (usefull for stations where the base yield is 30% or 35%) and which can only be refined from hem and hed ores.
A new column had to be introduced into the refining window and specific ammounts be assigned to different ores.
Well it would be a start to get a slight complexity into the industrial basis of eve and additionally make empire 0.0 to 0.2 more intersting. This might eventually also help neglected 0.0 systems where no a-b-c-do-s spawns and be a very small step in detatching refining ores from reprocessing loot.

Just 2cent from a lone miner.

Al Drevika
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:13:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: Dracthera
a. change the material need of tritanium from having to build stuff so that emphasis is placed on losec ore, thereby completely collapsing hisec mining.
b. tie in mission rat bounties to system security in addition to the ship class so rats in hisec are worth much less


Oh yeah- that's what this game needs - MORE nerfing! Yeah, let's take mining away as a source of income for people just joining the game! That should get the Ibis's flooding into the gatecamps.

(Whack!)

Dracthera
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:22:00 - [443]
 

Originally by: Al Drevika
Oh yeah- that's what this game needs - MORE nerfing! Yeah, let's take mining away as a source of income for people just joining the game! That should get the Ibis's flooding into the gatecamps.

(Whack!)


Well, I didn't say I supported any of my suggestions. In fact I said I'd quit the game if those suggestions were implemented. Just trying to answer the OPs question. I wanted to make a point that the only real solutions to his question were drastic changes which would never be acceptable by either the EVE population or by CCP unless they were looking to lose customers.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:25:00 - [444]
 

SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN SOMETHING FUN


something fun if you didn't catch my drift.


you cannot offer huge isk (though exploration can be rewarding :OP) as possible recompense for the risk of being blown up; any source of big isk will be dominated and farmed by the powers that be.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2008.11.19 18:43:00 - [445]
 

Out of the 5 or so random pages I've read I consistently see the same thing I want.

As a carebear I don't want to fight or pvp. For the same reason you play EVE for enjoyment of what pirates like to do, I like to be a carebear and do carebeary things that I enjoy out of EVE.

It's arrogant to think everyone plays EVE to PVP. That said the pirates made Low-sec what it is, a place carebears don't want to go. It's simple I WANT to be in low-sec to do my carebear things but the threat of dieing every 30 minutes is too much.

Consider it like Risk vs reward, but the reward is entertaining game play, not ISK. And I think that is where most pirates/pvpers go wrong.

Carebears usually have ISK, if you're really a uber carebear you have ISK, so the rewards come back to enjoyment and entertainment. Being killed and podding is not enjoyable or entertaining. So why would any carebear put themselves in a situation where the risk of being killed/podded is incredibly high.

Moving mission, moving agents, taxing the crap out of us will not make us move into low sec, even 10mil bounty rats will not make us more out in low sec permanently. Instead we'd do what we enjoy in high-sec and once and a while take a risk and go rat for as long as we can before getting killed.

In reality even if Gate Camps went away or the gates had a 50km no Force Field (POS Shield) around them it still wouldn't make low sec attractive for any long term occupation.

Sorry the pirates brought it on themselves by toasting every ship the even thought about entering low sec. I said in another thread - No remorse for those whining about lack of targets because they've killed so many they can't go into high-sec. That sums it up, you've culled the population that thought they would risk it anyway so thin that you've now destroyed what you enjoyed about EVE.

ouroboros trading
Gallente
Medics On Fire
Posted - 2008.11.19 20:21:00 - [446]
 

Sorry the pirates brought it on themselves by toasting every ship the even thought about entering low sec. I said in another thread - No remorse for those whining about lack of targets because they've killed so many they can't go into high-sec.


tbh.

the instapopping gatecamps, the smartbombing motherships (and SB BS that seem to be on countless gates just...blowing up pods), even going into lowsec is best avoided, never mind going there to do anything other than kill/die. the problem as i see it is gates, in the infinite expanse of space, gates reduce it all to a small box. it's a bad game mechanic.

RedSplat
Posted - 2008.11.19 20:30:00 - [447]
 

What about having jumpgates dump people randomly within 1 AU of the gate; the cosmological constant changed or something...

Gatecamps are stupid as hell, only benefit lazy wannabe pirates and alliance tht just want to maintain a stranglehold on space.

Vall Kor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.11.19 20:35:00 - [448]
 

Remove the chances for gate camps. Gate camps are for kids who were bullied in school.

Beardponderer
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.11.19 20:40:00 - [449]
 

Over nine thousand golden tech three cookies Smile

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.11.19 21:14:00 - [450]
 

Edited by: Nomore Telindus on 19/11/2008 21:14:35
Originally by: ouroboros trading

the instapopping gatecamps, the smartbombing motherships (and SB BS that seem to be on countless gates just...blowing up pods), even going into lowsec is best avoided, never mind going there to do anything other than kill/die. the problem as i see it is gates, in the infinite expanse of space, gates reduce it all to a small box. it's a bad game mechanic.

I' living in 0.1 for more than one year and i never blown up by any gatecampers. Now, i see, i doing something wrong. Rolling Eyes


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