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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:46:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: IncognitoX23

In order to get us to come more freely into dangerous space, forego the gatecamps. Allow us free entry and exit (for the most part).

The trick to hunting deer is to not thin the population too much and allow the "herd" to think it has a sense of safety. More traffic in system (unhindered by pirates), will make for more targets.



I don't *want* more targets of the type you suggest.

Sure, killing T1 cruisers with T1 fits in belts is fun (particularly in a frig or something), but it is also rather worthless.

And free entrance/exit is laughable. Most ISK which moves through low-sec does not stay in low-sec (except at a POS maybe) or has any reason to enter a low-sec belt / mission / plex / whatever. It is going from high-sec pocket A to high-sec pocket B.

Proposing that they should be able to do this in total safety in order to get more T1 cruisers in low-sec is incredibly silly.

IncognitoX23
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:54:00 - [392]
 

Edited by: IncognitoX23 on 06/11/2008 12:51:23
never ever said, complete safety.

Simply said, use your head when taking care of your killing grounds.

I fly a helicopter over my ranch once a year and count deer. 1500 (give or take) on a 1200 acre ranch means that I will have something to shoot this year without too much difficulty. If the numbers are a lot lower than that, I will hunt on a different lease that hunting season as I want the deer population on my land to think it's a safe place and to flourish and multiply.

I have plenty of venison on my table each year plus I get the fun of the hunt.

I was simply replying to the thread :)

I was thinking you could simply use an interdictor (or whatever it is you use), and yank the industrials etc. out of warp between gates? Didn't even say completely stop camping gates if that's your thing. Camping, Spawn Killing, whatever floats your boat. This is a sandbox, not a game so much. None of the individuals that have killed me ever did it for the ISK or loot. I simply didn't have much to take. They didn't even give me a chance to open communications or try themselves to do so.

It was Jump/BOOM in that order.

Szzznake
Posted - 2008.11.06 12:02:00 - [393]
 

Why is the title 'Get carebears into losec' when even the most hardened vets still run missions in hisec?

losec is dead because there is nothing worth going there for. 0.0 is a blobfest of lag and boring activities. It becomes less of a game and more of a job once you cross that borders of hi and losec and get into 0.0.

Why are there so many hisec pvp corps/mercs? Because everybody loves empire and its overflowing markets and target rich enviroment (for just the cost of a war declaration)There are tons of small newbie corps that can't defend themselves and tbh most people want fights they can win as opposed to cap ships and motherships.

making it harder to earn isk in empire and removing lvevel 4 s to losec means that those people who have been playing for years will have an unfair advantage over those that are new (because they already earned their isk)it could Possibly increase the number of people doing real money deals for isk.

C'Ristine Chapill
Posted - 2008.11.06 12:12:00 - [394]
 

I've made my comments earlier in the thread.

But one thing that occurred to me is that the faction standings needed for pos deployment are backwards in low sec.

Currently, you need high standings to deploy a pos into higher sec space. But it should be that it requires high standings to get a pos into .1 space, and lower standings to get a pos into .4.

It's incredibly difficult to get a corp of say 15 people up to the standings needed to deploy a pos into .3 or .4 space.

That might help, since pos's are defended safespots. Just a thought

Highwind Cid
Posted - 2008.11.06 18:09:00 - [395]
 

Edited by: Highwind Cid on 06/11/2008 18:08:50
IdeaBears like honey.

I say we coat all the planets/moons in lowsec with honeyWink

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.18 10:57:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Jenny Superfood
For the majority of players (not just the "carebears") to go into low-sec and 0.0 you need to do only one thing:

# To kick out every player that's already there. For good. Not just out of the regions, but out of the game entirely.

There is no incentive for many players to go into 0.0 because the players that are already there will do anything and everything in their power to keep the new players out. What's worse, due to in-game mechanics, the defenders have all the advantages.

This has very little to do with areas of Hi-Sec being overly lucrative, this is all about the current population of low-sec and 0.0 being the jerks that they are. Their in-game behaviour has both driven people out of these regions and is preventing people from going (back) into them. Now they're spamming the forums, whining over the fact that they have no one left to be jerks with, citing every conceivable reason under the sun except the truth: Their own behavior.

I am a high sec player in a small corp of close friends, we do not venture into low sec, we are miners and mission runners, jumping through gates and being popped and podded with some vastly more experienced PvP player trying to kill your POD is not exactly most peoples idea of fun.
I would guess and say there are now a lot of PvP players out there whinging and moaning that we stay away from low sec, why not let PvP stay as combat ship against combat ship, as an industrial or mining barge does not really stand much of a chance against a seasoned PvP.
So give me a reason why I should go into low sec and be POD killed by a PvP player out for his jollies? Sorry but I like my mining barges, I work hard to get them, How about PvP players leaving Miners and Industrialist alone and going against other PvP players? or is that too risky for some?

Tsotha lanti
Posted - 2008.11.18 11:21:00 - [397]
 

The answer lies in making greater rewards for helping the carebears rather than killing them. I'd gladly help defend a mining fleet if it earned me more than I could get otherwise even if less fun. It's about an exchange of service, so how do we increase the value of bringing law and order to law-less space, making it valuable enough to be worth the effort?

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2008.11.18 11:30:00 - [398]
 

I went. Working OK so far. Smile

GuntiNDDS
Posted - 2008.11.18 11:35:00 - [399]
 

rasing the security status of lowsec and nullsec to >= 5 would do. Laughing

Amber Coldheart
Caldari
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:02:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Tsotha lanti
The answer lies in making greater rewards for helping the carebears rather than killing them. I'd gladly help defend a mining fleet if it earned me more than I could get otherwise even if less fun. It's about an exchange of service, so how do we increase the value of bringing law and order to law-less space, making it valuable enough to be worth the effort?

So basically what you are saying is that high sec dwellers should:

1. Go to low sec
2. Pay for doing so
3. Risk that you might be a tad too triggerhappy, and decide their barge looks like a juicy target instead of something you are supposed to protect.
4. Risk getting podded by whoever who thinks those things are very funny (often losing hundreds of millions of implants in the bargain).

etc, and so on.

And for what, for making equal or less than you can in the comparably safer high sec ?
Are low sec dwellers tired of shooting at people who can actually defend themselves, and want more easy defenseless targets ?

I am a high sec dweller myself, and i am...call it allergic to low sec. I dont care if i could make 20 times more in low sec, for me its simply not worth it in any case, as its not a matter of financial benefit, but of potential loss, and the amount of work that would have to be done to make up for said loss.

This is also the reason why i've never considered 0.0 space (where blobs reign supreme, and on the offchance that you manage to actually defend yourself, the enemy responds by dropping 20 capital ships on your head).

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:20:00 - [401]
 

Put simply the rewards are not commensurate with the risk, in fact they're laughable. Until that is resolved effectively the only carebears that are going to be in low-sec are ones who either don't realise it's significance vs 0.5+ or are prepared to gamble a short journey for whichever courier mission has sent them there.

The gulf in risk between 0.5 and 0.4 is huge, yet the rewards as they exist currently are just not there. The bounties & mission/LP payout are slightly higher but nothing worth losing ship + fittings over, even for a relative newbie.

Yes, there is a lot of low-sec which is barely habited - I've run combat missions in low-sec in a ship I wasn't fussed about losing and whilst it was an adrenalin rush knowing that someone could turn up in my mission at no point did I really feel like I was gaining much from being there.

Perhaps a system could be worked out where agent missions that take you to/through lowsec scale exponentially in payout/LP according to how dangerous a system seems to be (pod/ship kills last 1/24 hours, pilots in space last x minutes, etc), how many low-sec jumps the person has to travel through, etc. Let's face it - raising the reward is the only way you're going to get people (sheep) who are otherwise completely uninterested in PvP into low-sec. Faced with the choice between running The Blockade in 99.9% safe 0.5 for 2 million, and running it in unsafe 0.4 for 10 million (a random number I just pulled out of thin air) will be tough for carebears, including myself, to turn down.

Simply put - scale the rewards according to the danger, even if it's just an arbitrary scale that recognises the significance of 0.1-0.4 vs 0.5+, and your sheep will go there.

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:25:00 - [402]
 

I have done courier jobs and survived low sec, it is simply the getting in and out, as a 'carebear' I have no experience of PvP apart from getting POD killed after my badger II has been destroyed.
This has not happened every time I have been into low sec.
We even put up a small POS in low sec to see how it worked, as you can imagine someone took exception and we don't have it anymore.
The answer to the original thread is simple, we do not want to go into low or null because we are insta killed by people out for their kicks.
Modern Combat ratio is 6 support to every combat, we could be the support to PvP players, unfortunately PvP doesn't see it that way, to them we are another target to POD kill.
So at the end of the day there is no solution to this, pirates complain because we don't go low/null sec, we don't go because they POD kill us at any chance they get.
How about the join an alliance etc, who? where? when? what do I do? etc etc etc.
How many new players do you think know people in big alliances and are getting accepted into them ? I have been playing for about 6 months and don't even know how to get into an alliance, our corp is far too small to be accepted by anyone anyway.

Therefore all of us 'carebears' who do not know how to PvP in mining barges and industrials are never gonna be going to permenantly move into low/null sec because the players already there won't let us and kill on sight.

So how about moving PvP players into a class of their own and attacking each other instead of the people who appear to provide ships/modules/etc for them to blow up. Allow us to play the game our way in low sec, providing you with the equipment to fight other PvP players without jumping at every shadow.
We can then chat to you in local channels, getting to know who is around what your needs are equipment wise, ready supplies of material and equipment without fear of being hunted and POD killed for your jollies.#

Result is happy 'carebears' who can learn PvP if they want and Happy PvP players who could show all flashy red to each other, maybe even capable of attacking each other in high sec without fear of reprisal from concord ?
Allow people who want PvP to do PvP, be it high or low sec, identify those people to each other and allow those that want to do other things in eve do them.

Or are the whinging 'PvP' players only out for the easy kill with no risk?
So long as they are around I am going nowhere near low/null space in my hulk, do you really blame me?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:34:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Kia Corallis
we could be the support to PvP players


Do you have anything to offer? Very Happy

Thudin
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:36:00 - [404]
 

Edited by: Thudin on 18/11/2008 12:41:00
Originally by: Kia Corallis
I have done courier jobs and survived low sec, it is simply the getting in and out, as a 'carebear' I have no experience of PvP apart from getting POD killed after my badger II has been destroyed.
This has not happened every time I have been into low sec.
We even put up a small POS in low sec to see how it worked, as you can imagine someone took exception and we don't have it anymore.
The answer to the original thread is simple, we do not want to go into low or null because we are insta killed by people out for their kicks.
Modern Combat ratio is 6 support to every combat, we could be the support to PvP players, unfortunately PvP doesn't see it that way, to them we are another target to POD kill.
So at the end of the day there is no solution to this, pirates complain because we don't go low/null sec, we don't go because they POD kill us at any chance they get.
How about the join an alliance etc, who? where? when? what do I do? etc etc etc.
How many new players do you think know people in big alliances and are getting accepted into them ? I have been playing for about 6 months and don't even know how to get into an alliance, our corp is far too small to be accepted by anyone anyway.

Therefore all of us 'carebears' who do not know how to PvP in mining barges and industrials are never gonna be going to permenantly move into low/null sec because the players already there won't let us and kill on sight.

So how about moving PvP players into a class of their own and attacking each other instead of the people who appear to provide ships/modules/etc for them to blow up. Allow us to play the game our way in low sec, providing you with the equipment to fight other PvP players without jumping at every shadow.
We can then chat to you in local channels, getting to know who is around what your needs are equipment wise, ready supplies of material and equipment without fear of being hunted and POD killed for your jollies.#

Result is happy 'carebears' who can learn PvP if they want and Happy PvP players who could show all flashy red to each other, maybe even capable of attacking each other in high sec without fear of reprisal from concord ?
Allow people who want PvP to do PvP, be it high or low sec, identify those people to each other and allow those that want to do other things in eve do them.

Or are the whinging 'PvP' players only out for the easy kill with no risk?
So long as they are around I am going nowhere near low/null space in my hulk, do you really blame me?


Best post ever! EvE pirates will be the death of their own actions!

Sweeper23
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:42:00 - [405]
 

How about "Non-Camp Day 2008"
Why not you gate campers get off the F'ing gates and allow us "carebears" a chance to go into low-sec to see what its all about, instead of blowing us up and podding us as we step in the door.
The only time I've been in lowsec was on a mission, I was in an indy and was podded all in a matter of less than a minute of enter a .4 system. SUCH A GREAT EXPERIENCE!

Campers suck! <^>(>_<)<^>

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:46:00 - [406]
 

To be honest even as a carebear I've got little sympathy for people who just wander into Rancer and the like and wonder why they get podded when it takes all of 30 seconds to look at the map and see the huge red dot for pods/ships killed in the last hour.

AeonOfTime
Minmatar
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.11.18 12:50:00 - [407]
 

To replay to the OP, what would get me into lowsec / nullsec is a bit more of an opportunity to actually get there somehow. I have been to low and nullsec a number of times on my own for couriers but mostly for the sheer joy of discovery.

Needless to say I never really got very far. Gatecamps and solo hunters quickly got my carebear ass. The thing is, I knew I would run into trouble so I took cheap ships and did not even bother to fit them. No one bothered to even scan my ship, and I sat there each time just waiting to get blown to pieces.

Of course I could use a transport ship / covert ops / force recon ship and have a better chance of escaping gatecamps... but at what cost? I don't have a big income in the game as I don't play very much, so a fitted ship is not something I can lose just for kicks.

You can't realistically make lowsec or nullsec safe, but I would suggest creating secured shipping lanes to key areas. Ships traveling along those routes would be under CONCORD or private militia protection. That way goods could travel much more safely, and gatecamps can continue to exist to cater to all player types.

Kia Corallis
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:11:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kia Corallis
we could be the support to PvP players


Do you have anything to offer? Very Happy


We build T2 caldari ships, buzzard/manticore/nighthawk/vulture, plus of coure the T1 variants, manufacture of cruise missiles and various other bits and pieces.
We experement with supply and demand, if it sells we produce it.
The only thing stopping us from producing things is lack of skills and funds. eventually we will be producuing all ships, god forbid, maybe eventually capital ships.
every oak tree started as an acorn, unfortunately there are a lot of loggers about Laughing

Nomore Telindus
Gallente
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:19:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Kia Corallis
How about the join an alliance etc, who? where? when? what do I do? etc etc etc.

A friendly advice:
Pick a covops/shuttle, visit the mission hubs in aridia/khanid and TALK with the locals for blue.
Originally by: Kia Corallis
Therefore all of us 'carebears' who do not know how to PvP in mining barges and industrials are never gonna be going to permenantly move into low/null sec because the players already there won't let us and kill on sight.

FYI lowsec is full of macrohaulers and macrominers. At least, in lowsec we can kill these cheaters. Evil or Very Mad
So how can i spot the difference between you and a hated macro?
Originally by: Kia Corallis
...providing you with the equipment to fight other PvP players...

It's a totally false misconception, that we, PVPers are in need of any industrial support. Due to the nature of industry in EVE, our ship/capital/T2 manufacturing power is MORE THAN adequate.


Resetgun
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:30:00 - [410]
 


  1. So far I have thought that 0.0 space is self sustaining environment. Alliances there are living in somekind communistic paradise and they don't want external influence there. If I am wrong - there really is alliance that wants external ratters, miners and traders to their territory - then there should be better communication methods that would tell for us carebears, where we are allowed to visit. For example markers to starmap - "you can rat in this system, but you are not allowed mine", "you can travel through this system - but you are not allowed to do anything else" or "you can trade in this outpost". There should be also easily accesible list of illegal ships/modules/trade goods that are not allowed in alliance space.

  2. Easy way to arrange convoys and hire escorts through dangeous systems. Yes, it would be possible in current corporation system - but in other hand, every diehard carebear knows that leaving NPC corps means wars that normally stop your business.

  3. Better bounty and mercenary system. Pirates are risking to lose 15-500M/ship, trader is risking loosing 2B-20B/ship.


Another Forum'Alt
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:40:00 - [411]
 

The truth is solo players and highsec corps will quit before they are forced into blobs.

Fangedterror
Caldari
Gank Bears
Posted - 2008.11.18 13:41:00 - [412]
 

I dont think it that carebears are aginest risk. they just dont need to take it atm. and the few things they dont have they can easly buy from the market. They got eveything they need in high sec, they got no reason to go to 0.0 and low sec.

Thats the probem.

Takvar
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:00:00 - [413]
 

Edited by: Takvar on 18/11/2008 14:00:13
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 03/11/2008 05:10:56
In a galaxy far far away...

RP Version
----------
A lone hauler loaded with much needed supplies and luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fleet Commander to unidentified vessel state your business and declare your cargo manifest. Prepare to be scanned.
[Hauler]Captain L Dopa here, deep space transport, isotopes and luxery goods for XYZ station. Uploading manifest.
{Fleet Commander} Thank you for your cooperation. Please be aware of and abide by local system regulations and protocols. Have a good trip.

Reality
-------
A lone hauler loaded with NOT-needed supplies and NOT-needed-luxeries decloaks in deep {Insert your alliance name here} space
{alliance fleet commander} Fire.
[Hauler]Guys dont kill me Im just transporting good to sell to you guys!
{Random Ganker}Lol
{Fleet Commander}Lol

That's pretty much why you guys are lacking people in low sec 0.0. Too many fake pirates due to the 0.0 no sec-loss killing true nuetrals and the ease of npc'ing back any you lose in low sec.


This pretty much hits it the nail on the head.

Law and order of some form and functional institutions are prerequisites for economic vitality. Even in EVE. You want a thriving economy in your alliance space? You've got to make it safe for commerce.

Alliances that want Carebears to do business in their space have to provide guarantees of safe passage and actively protect merchanters from pirates and rogue alliance members.

For example, if an alliance gang pops a freighter under alliance protection, the players involved (especially the FC) should be forced by the alliance to recompense the owner and his/her corp double the value lost. If the players or corp won't pay up, they should be kicked from the alliance, and the alliance should make good on the merchant captain's loss.

I don't know of any alliances who develop this relationship with industrial and trading corps though some allow safe passage at a steep price and others require membership in the alliance as the price of admission. Which is a pity because, fun as shooting up a carebear freighter is, I'd thing a reliable flow of goods from empire space would be preferable.

Thudin
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:09:00 - [414]
 

We do not need any more mandated CCP rules regarding what happens if a carebear is killed. Stay out of lowsec period if your a carebear.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:10:00 - [415]
 

did not make it past page 4 :-) seems all the suggestions are the same as always ...

there is NO reward you can come up with that will make carebears go to lower sec unless they want to. simply the reward is:

1. not enough to cover the risks
2. big enough for 0.0 entities to farm it
3. too much hassle for casual game play

there is no other option.

What needs to be done is to make security status loss irreversible. This will start a loop that actualy makes industrial types and carebears in lower sec needed. Right now they are just targets, because the lower sec pirates and ganktards do not depend on them for modules/ships.

0.0 is fine for the most part ... I lived there for a time and did like it ... the organisation depends just on players themselves, it gives plenty of goals to achieve and work for. Even an industrial player will find his place there.

Low sec is just highsec with much more risk and mostly the same reward. There are no additional goals you can accomplish compared to highsec other than -10 sec status. It should be a corporate playground before forming alliances:

1. remove lucrative moons from lowsec - removes biggest large alliance incentive to populate lowsec

2. create a working bounty-hunting profession for the lone/small gang PvPers that don't wan to turn pirate

3. create a few more goals for small-medium sized corps to work for besides having a POS

4. create a way for safe travel if not interested in PvP ... this is a tricky one and prone to misuse, but gatecamps are actualy killing lowsec for many people. trade should be the lifeblood of EVE, not PvP. f.e. sentry protection for a few jumps or concord excort ships. the longer the journey the more expensive, same with sec status changes and once you commit an aggresion, you are killed like in highsec.

I don't care about mission agents. the whole mission system needs a huge rework so moving agents is not a solution. the hubs and habits will just shift to the next best thing.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:14:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
What needs to be done is to make security status loss irreversible. This will start a loop that actualy makes industrial types and carebears in lower sec needed. Right now they are just targets, because the lower sec pirates and ganktards do not depend on them for modules/ships.
Say hello to hauler alts.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:22:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
What needs to be done is to make security status loss irreversible. This will start a loop that actualy makes industrial types and carebears in lower sec needed. Right now they are just targets, because the lower sec pirates and ganktards do not depend on them for modules/ships.
Say hello to hauler alts.


rant:
don't be an idiot and try to read at least the whole part you quoted. do I have to write everything verbatim for silly folks to quit showing their witty remarks ?
/rant

oh I am well aware of this ... why do you think I wrote that industrialist have no place in low sec because they are actualy not needed as a profession ? if everybody can get a supply alt easily, there is no demand for a full time industrial folks to be there ... they just provide killmails ...

that's the sad reality of low sec and this reality cannot be changed ...

you see, it takes quite some organisation to secure a few systems in lowsec and if you can get that level of resources, you should be in 0.0 where you have more control and rewards.

Plan Neun
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:26:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: Blastil
Edited by: Blastil on 31/10/2008 15:07:22
CCP has been emphasizing getting carebears and industrialists out into lowsec and nullsec in a non-PVP role. At every turn this has fallen through, since it seems carebears are all dead set against risk in any shape or form. This is understandable I suppose. Most people want to log on Friday and Saturday to run a few missions, change production jobs, and chat with a few friends. But without Miners/maufacturers in Nullsec and lowsec, as well as mission runners, Low/Nullsec will forever be gimpped, since PVPers are mostly consumers only. CCP has tried and met with only limited success to get these players into more risky space, so I'll ask this question, aimed mostly at carebears and industrialists.

What would get YOU into Low and Nullsec?


If the Punks that construct this game nerf the missiles a tad more I will move into deepspace and never go back to Empire.

Yeah Right in my Tight Ass!

Laiyna
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:30:00 - [419]
 

I am a carebear, proud of it to. I play this game for my enjoyment not to be some cheap ass killmail for somebody in lowsec.

It cost me 40+ hours of work to pay for a desent mining ship, cost me 3+ hours to assamble the parts.

Going To lowsec, what will happen:

50% chance getting shot at a gatecamp
30% chance getting shot in 1st hour becouse somebody wanted a killmail
20% chance getting shot in 2nd hour becouse somebody is just a jerk/assh0l3

Thats about 45 hours of work for me, for 5min of glorius fun for somebody else.

The joy, the wonderfull joy of this game.

Time vs Reward argument? Sure can be done, make a working bounty system.
(eg if I set 10M reward on somebody you get 10M reward if you shoot down 100M worth of his ship and podding him is allowed in Highsec as long as the bounty is active, bounties should only be placed if they are on your agro timer)

If the pirate then messes with me, I could mess back, my Millions of skillpoints would then be equaly worth his skillpoints (eg my isk vs his isk, come and shoot me)...

Laiyna

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.11.18 14:45:00 - [420]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
why do you think I wrote that industrialist have no place in low sec because they are actualy not needed as a profession ?
And I was remarking that your suggestion wouldn't increase that need. It doesn't "need to be done" because it wouldn't change anything.


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