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Iam Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:21:00 - [1]
 

I by no means am in support of wardeccing an entire NPC corp, that wouldn't be fair.

What I'm suggesting is wardec'ing an individual. Someone who meets a possible minimal set of requirements:

(merely suggestions)
5 mil SP minimum
>= 6 months in age
-3.0 or higher sec status (-5.0 to -3.0 can't access all systems anyhow)

Of course, the inverse is to allow the individual to wardec corporations, however silly that might seem.

Why do this? Well, there are well known players who ferry items for pirates, scam, and otherwise cause trouble. There are those who seek refuge in an NPC corp and no one can do anything about it. Ganking isn't really an option.

What financial gain can be found here? Plunder of course, just like a corp wardec'ing another corp. Perhaps payment of some sort, which some may call griefing.

Typical war dec rules should apply, treating the individual as if they were their own corp. However, alliances and their corps should not be allowed to wardec an individual.

This is just a hashmash of an idea, feel free to add constructive criticism or nitpick.

Iam Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:29:00 - [2]
 

a corp mate (not this guy's corp) has also suggested this:

******* > *****, what about a new option: Blood Feud...an individual war deccing an individual?

DreadedHunter
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:35:00 - [3]
 

Has some strong downsides... a decidated PvP player would be able to wardec a dedicated empire miner.

Surely you have to agree that that is wrong?

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:38:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 28/10/2008 03:39:00
Any wardec of an individual player is going to involve significant griefing potential. Wardec, add to addressbook, locator agent, and now you don't get to undock ever. Have fun Shocked

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:41:00 - [5]
 

Just nerf NPC corps so people have a reason to leave after they've figured out the basics of the game. An extremely high corp tax is my favored NPC corp nerfing idea. Something in the area of 99% after a few months in the corp should be fine.

Khraunus
Amarr
Black Forest Operatives
Posted - 2008.10.28 03:58:00 - [6]
 

Just make it so that people in NPC corps for more than 3 months will have their attributes lowered by 75%.

Davina Braben
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:19:00 - [7]
 

Hmmm.

Players in "School" corps shouldn't be dec-able.

"School" corps should boot anyone with a negative sec status.

Dyaven
Nexus.6
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:24:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Davina Braben
Hmmm.

Players in "School" corps shouldn't be dec-able.

"School" corps should boot anyone with a negative sec status.


It's not the pirate players being in NPC corps that are the problem, it's miners that never leave the NPC corp and are basically invulnerable to any form of PVP other than suicide ganking or can flipping, the former which will never happen nowadays and the latter is completely preventable.

Iam Corporation
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:34:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: DreadedHunter
Has some strong downsides... a decidated PvP player would be able to wardec a dedicated empire miner.

Surely you have to agree that that is wrong?


This doesn't stop dedicated pvp corps from war deccing dedicated mining corps.

Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 28/10/2008 03:39:00
Any wardec of an individual player is going to involve significant griefing potential. Wardec, add to addressbook, locator agent, and now you don't get to undock ever. Have fun Shocked


The same can be done against smaller corps today.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Just nerf NPC corps so people have a reason to leave after they've figured out the basics of the game. An extremely high corp tax is my favored NPC corp nerfing idea. Something in the area of 99% after a few months in the corp should be fine.


Excellent idea! Perhaps a tax increase of 5% per month in age after their first 6 months of age - this would apply not only to rats but contracts as well.

Originally by: Khraunus
Just make it so that people in NPC corps for more than 3 months will have their attributes lowered by 75%.


This one I just can't agree with, sorry.

Originally by: Davina Braben
Hmmm.

Players in "School" corps shouldn't be dec-able.

"School" corps should boot anyone with a negative sec status.


Makes sense. There is a similar mechanic for corps in Faction Warfare. Also, perhaps players should be "graduated" to a corp where they can be war decced after some criteria are met.


Thank you for your thoughts everyone. Keep them coming. While I'm quite sure CCP would never implement any of these ideas, there are always benefits to discussion of the ideas.

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:37:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 28/10/2008 04:41:09
Quote:

It's not the pirate players being in NPC corps that are the problem, it's miners that never leave the NPC corp and are basically invulnerable to any form of PVP other than suicide ganking or can flipping, the former which will never happen nowadays and the latter is completely preventable.


I'm always intrigued, why is this a "problem" as you say? I'm keen to know how this detracts from your gameplay?

EDIT: Genuine interest here, not a whiny "protect carebears" claim, since the majority of my money-making was done in a one-man corp which only ever got war-decced once, where I lost probably 5% of my assets, hardly a killing blow. The fear of being 'vulnerable' in a player-corp is quite poorly founded.

Dyaven
Nexus.6
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 28/10/2008 04:37:35
Quote:

It's not the pirate players being in NPC corps that are the problem, it's miners that never leave the NPC corp and are basically invulnerable to any form of PVP other than suicide ganking or can flipping, the former which will never happen nowadays and the latter is completely preventable.


I'm always intrigued, why is this a "problem" as you say? I'm keen to know how this detracts from your gameplay?


The problem is macro miners using NPC corps to become immune to any form of pvp.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: DreadedHunter
Has some strong downsides... a decidated PvP player would be able to wardec a dedicated empire miner.

Surely you have to agree that that is wrong?


a pure pvp corp can dec a pure pve corp now...

although it should put a nice stop to all the level 4 running 3 month old cnr farmers. (hmm the batch I was watching is probably up to 7-8 months now)

they also send you funny mails in Chinese Twisted Evil

its all upsides Laughing

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:43:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 28/10/2008 04:44:55
Quote:
The problem is macro miners using NPC corps to become immune to any form of pvp.

Macro miners are what the petition button is for.

So beyond that it's legit players in the NPC corps.

EDIT: Ok, "legit" is fairly loose. If you want to sit there with 12 computers running mining accounts all day long, that's your business and it's legit in my mind. If you're then selling that isk, thats not legit.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:49:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Iam Corporation

The same can be done against smaller corps today.



True, but I think there's few significant difference:

-corp vs corp wardecs have some potential variety in targets, usually (for corp size >1man), so any individual member doesn't have to bear the entire brunt of it

-small corps can always gain new members and attempt to fight back

-and lastly, small corps can always dissolve when faced with an overwhelming assault by superior forces. I can't stop being myself, apart from not logging in or not playing Shocked

Tac Ginaz
Gallente
Liberation Army
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:51:00 - [15]
 

Read his post again people. It makes a lot of sense once you use your brain.

For one, the war-dec would only be against people with low security rating and who have been in game half a year as a minimum. Meaning no newbies. Heck, the lowsec means the guy has PVP'd or griefed other players to begin with.

You need to add one more pre-requisite: The player you declare this blood-feud wardec MUST have destroyed your ship outside of a corp war-dec situation (aka pirated or killed in 0.0 when out of war situation)

Most importantly, it removes the ability of individuals to use game mechanics to avoid repercussion of their actions. When Mr. -1.5 sec rating pirates a player hauling stuff in 0.4 and gets his corp war-dec'd because of it... and mr -1.5 sec rating leaves corp for an NPC corp where he's untouchable... well...

in this blood-feud system, it wont matter what corp this other player joins. A declared feud is a 1-1 wardec. Even if the lowsecrating player hides in a massive BS blob in empire space, the person with a blood feud on him can jump in, engage and kill his ship and the others cant do squat.

The blood feud system could use a similar system to the BOUNTY : The person declaring the blood feud puts an amount that, when either paid OR the destroyed items of the other player items add up to that amount, will end the blood feud.

Hence, if I get killed by playerX and put a blood feud of 100 mill on him .. the other guy can choose to either PAY me that amount or I can kill him UP to when his losses amount to 100mill (using in-game base price calculator used in the contract system).

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.10.28 04:59:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 28/10/2008 04:41:09
Quote:

It's not the pirate players being in NPC corps that are the problem, it's miners that never leave the NPC corp and are basically invulnerable to any form of PVP other than suicide ganking or can flipping, the former which will never happen nowadays and the latter is completely preventable.


I'm always intrigued, why is this a "problem" as you say? I'm keen to know how this detracts from your gameplay?

EDIT: Genuine interest here, not a whiny "protect carebears" claim, since the majority of my money-making was done in a one-man corp which only ever got war-decced once, where I lost probably 5% of my assets, hardly a killing blow. The fear of being 'vulnerable' in a player-corp is quite poorly founded.


rampant inflation of isk and minerals. (construction is outpacing destruction so it appears at a glance that your isk buys more, that is until you go to buy a gtc, a bpo, or faction (excluding most empire lp store items)/deadspace gear)

that is why it is of my concern. not to mention Bumble**** McBumpants can sit in an npc corp and just hump the level 4 agent all day, generate billions (at least 10 mil/hour) at like 3 months old. at say 50 hours a week (there is also the chance that there are 2 people playing the account and running over 100 hours a week). thats 500 mil a week (probably maxing out around 2 bil per week, with 20mil/hour and 100 hours a week at 4 months), 1.5bil a month to sell for $, and 500mil to buy a gtc.

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:06:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Faife on 28/10/2008 05:30:17
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

rampant inflation of isk and minerals. (construction is outpacing destruction so it appears at a glance that your isk buys more, that is until you go to buy a gtc, a bpo, or faction (excluding most empire lp store items)/deadspace gear)

that is why it is of my concern. not to mention Bumble**** McBumpants can sit in an npc corp and just hump the level 4 agent all day, generate billions (at least 10 mil/hour) at like 3 months old. at say 50 hours a week (there is also the chance that there are 2 people playing the account and running over 100 hours a week). thats 500 mil a week (probably maxing out around 2 bil per week, with 20mil/hour and 100 hours a week at 4 months), 1.5bil a month to sell for $, and 500mil to buy a gtc.


OH NOES!

(rest of post redacted since i dont want to get the delete stick when the mods wake up)

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:08:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/10/2008 05:09:16
Originally by: DreadedHunter
Has some strong downsides... a decidated PvP player would be able to wardec a dedicated empire miner.

Surely you have to agree that that is wrong?


Nothing wrong about that. Very sensible considering we're talking about EVE.


Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:16:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kransthow on 28/10/2008 05:16:41
after one month in the school npc corp you get shunted into a npc corp which is particapating in factional warfare, hows that?

Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:18:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 28/10/2008 05:20:41
Quote:

rampant inflation of isk and minerals. (construction is outpacing destruction so it appears at a glance that your isk buys more, that is until you go to buy a gtc, a bpo, or faction (excluding most empire lp store items)/deadspace gear)

that is why it is of my concern. not to mention Bumble**** McBumpants can sit in an npc corp and just hump the level 4 agent all day, generate billions (at least 10 mil/hour) at like 3 months old. at say 50 hours a week (there is also the chance that there are 2 people playing the account and running over 100 hours a week). thats 500 mil a week (probably maxing out around 2 bil per week, with 20mil/hour and 100 hours a week at 4 months), 1.5bil a month to sell for $, and 500mil to buy a gtc.


At 10 mil an hour, that's 100 hours of missioning for a bil. I'm lucky to get an hour or two of gameplay in a day, if that. More realistically, it's 3 or 4 hours of gameplay a week for me, which is *more* than enough for me to engage other tasks such as industry etc. which (used to, I don't even do that now) make me billions.

But lets say I can afford 2 hour a day on EVE. That's 140 mil a week, a billion in 10 weeks.

As I pointed out, my industrial activities ream the **** out of that, and my industrial activities pale to insignificance (according to my last 0.0 alliance membership attempt) of any active 0.0 corp.

So again, what's the issue? If someone *really* wants to hump that lvl 4 agent all day, let them for all I care. For a ton less effort, I can outstrip their productivity to no end.

What you're proposing is to alienate a great deal of the "casual" crowd from EVE by imposing massive restrictions on their ability to generate income during the small amounts of time they're in the game.

It's bad enough that alliances and corporations push me out for not being on when and where they demand (Sorry, but 3am on a work day is not EVE time for me), but you want to force my gaming style to meet yours even when I'm not part of your corp or alliance?

Nalar Marnith
Minmatar
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:24:00 - [21]
 

Not this **** again.

Just no, alright?

Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:26:00 - [22]
 

*sign*

every few week somebody has a brilliant new™ idea on this...

please read though FIVE years worth of discussion on this:


and for those who dont know:

CCP are NOT going to take away the refugee that is NPC corp from people... NPC corp stayed the same over much of the years to provide people a refugee (that or people quit... and as much as you macho/epeeners might say: we dont need them, CCP accounting says otherwise.)


if they do, CCP accounting will have to cut back on the dev's beer money.

there are BETTER things in player corps, CCP uses the CARROT...

people will come out when they are good and ready.



this sums up CCP's stance on this tbh...




I still cant comprehend why people make such a fuss about wardecing npc/individuals...is really pointless other than a grief tool...


you want money? ... go after POSes XD

a single research POS (a dedicated one) is worth atleast 500 mill after you pop the tower... and most of them dont really have guards... sometimes you get mercs trying to "defend" it

thats where the money is at (and thats right... to have a POS.. you need to be in a player corp..)






As for the macro miner clause people throw out.


it is NOT en excuse to harm/punish legit players who do nothing wrong (other than not playing your playstyle) just to get at the explioter/EULA breakers.


you PETITION those people...


and yes, CCP does do things about the farmers.

they just arent obligated to tell you everything.

Cece Cline
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:28:00 - [23]
 

So you went to lowsec, lost your ship or 10, don't have any money now to buy a new one and make a topic because I can dish out billions in one ship which will never be destroyed.

I can understand the frustration.




Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:36:00 - [24]
 

As long as the NPC corporations assets could get involved in the wardec...yeah Wink

Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
Dead poets society
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:40:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Rhatar Khurin on 28/10/2008 09:39:55
Hmm, well i like being in my meals and wheels npc corp. I'm not hurting anyone, just trundling around doing this and that.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:42:00 - [26]
 

Suicide ganking. Yah it's not as easy as it was a little while ago, but it's definately something that can be done.

Noone is invulnerable in EVE, it's just a question of risk vs reward, nothing more nothing less. Is it worth spending X amount of isk to kill ship Y? If ship Y is worth alot less than ship X (and/or the time/effort to get your sec status up), don't attack?

I know that if I really want someone dead in a NPC corp, I will kill him, simply put. Maybe it cost me more than I gain, but I'd only be after the kill anyway, which alone makes it worth it.

*shrugs*

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:53:00 - [27]
 

What you want is simply a reformulation of the bounty system.
Work on it from that angle (which would have the added benefit of making bounty hunting a working profession at the same time), and maybe you'll come up with something that's worth-while.

Nur Vadenn
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.10.28 11:01:00 - [28]
 

Ah... this old chestnut again? I guess it was about time for another anti-NPC corporation whine. Once again we have heavy handed suggestions designed to get at those swarms of pirates, griefers, and macro whatevers sitting smugly in the NPC corporation while plying their various nefarious trades. No thought whatsoever to the real issue and no consideration toward the innocent bystanders getting their play styles squashed.

The real problem is not the NPC corporations, its the fact that player corporations simply fail. For every good corporation that might exist (have yet to encounter a good one) there are 20 or more that typify everything that is wrong with them. Because every budding megalomaniac clinging to their parent's basement can make a corporation with 30 minutes of training and the proceeds from a level 3 mission, trying to find a corporation is a minefield. When combined with the ****-poor tools available to look through the vast sea of corporations out there its like navigating that minefield with only a 1 foot stick to tell if you're about to step on a mine. Then you look at the “benefits” of player corporations and you have to seriously ask yourself “why bother?”.

Make player corporations worth something. Make the war declaration system something other than a grief for ISK tool. Give people looking for corporations better tools to look into a corporation's history to see if a corporation's leaders are just lining their pockets. Make player corporations actually worth it. Once these problems are addressed you might actually see people move out of NPC corporations.


Joss Sparq
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.28 11:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Dyaven
It's not the pirate players being in NPC corps that are the problem, it's miners that never leave the NPC corp and are basically invulnerable to any form of PVP other than suicide ganking or can flipping, the former which will never happen nowadays and the latter is completely preventable.

1) Can-flipping - still happens.
2) Completely preventable? Laughing

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.28 12:22:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/10/2008 12:23:40
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Read his post again people. It makes a lot of sense once you use your brain.



Read most of the reply posts and that "lot of sense" disappear in a sea of griefing.

The OP idea has some small sense, even if it will not get most of the stated goals (hauling alts will ot have negative stats). Most of the replies are total nonsense.

Then the OP killed the last sense in his post with this:

Originally by: Iam Corporation

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Just nerf NPC corps so people have a reason to leave after they've figured out the basics of the game. An extremely high corp tax is my favored NPC corp nerfing idea. Something in the area of 99% after a few months in the corp should be fine.


Excellent idea! Perhaps a tax increase of 5% per month in age after their first 6 months of age - this would apply not only to rats but contracts as well.



making it another of the usual "nerf others, boost my playstile" posts.


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