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Gilgamoth
Minmatar
Eldritch Storm
Posted - 2008.10.24 11:32:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: Gilgamoth on 24/10/2008 11:32:41
Having read through all 9 pages it seems that my initial concerns are echoed by a few others...

1) More High Slots.
If this is meant to be a mining command ship it should be able to take the 3 mining foreman links in addition to tractor beams and (possibly) a salvager. so long as it's 0/0 on turrets and launchers, I really can't see why there's not 6 high slots.

2) Rebalance the Space
Whilst the cargohold expands with EC Mods and Rigs, it's actually the Corp Hanger that needs the extra space to allow haulers to collect from it. Unless you intend the Orca to be the hauler in which case why give it command bonuses?

3) Gang Link Bonus
There's been no mention of if the Orca can run 1 or 3 command links. If it's one then you'll loose two of your precious 3 mid slots to Command Processor modules. Oh and there's no mention of reduction of CPU for Gang modules.

Regards,

Gil

edit for typo

Richard Albright
Posted - 2008.10.24 11:43:00 - [272]
 

Edited by: Richard Albright on 24/10/2008 11:45:29
Edited by: Richard Albright on 24/10/2008 11:44:47
Originally by: Gilgamoth
Edited by: Gilgamoth on 24/10/2008 11:32:41
Having read through all 9 pages it seems that my initial concerns are echoed by a few others...

1) More High Slots.
If this is meant to be a mining command ship it should be able to take the 3 mining foreman links in addition to tractor beams and (possibly) a salvager. so long as it's 0/0 on turrets and launchers, I really can't see why there's not 6 high slots.

2) Rebalance the Space
Whilst the cargohold expands with EC Mods and Rigs, it's actually the Corp Hanger that needs the extra space to allow haulers to collect from it. Unless you intend the Orca to be the hauler in which case why give it command bonuses?

3) Gang Link Bonus
There's been no mention of if the Orca can run 1 or 3 command links. If it's one then you'll loose two of your precious 3 mid slots to Command Processor modules. Oh and there's no mention of reduction of CPU for Gang modules.

Regards,

Gil

edit for typo


The screen shots from the SiSi servers seem to suggest that the Orca does have the 99% reduction for the modules Gil (link is from page 6 - here's the full view)

More high slots would be nice, even if it's to fill them with 5 tractor beams, as from the looks of the gang modules for mining there's really only one good one that I can see - duration, the other two I don't see the need for with this ship, and the cap use one is just a silly module for most miners as far as I am aware (playing eve since day 7 with various characters most of the time mining) as I've never ran out of cap mining in anything other than a rookie ship.

I hope that the rigs and ec mods work on the corp hanger as well, otherwise it will be a fun time for the orca pilot micro managing the ore moving from cargo hold to corp hanger..

Edit: I liked the idea that was given for a module to link the mining barges up with the orca so that the ore was steamed directly to the orca's cargo bay as if the orca had it's own mining lasers feeding from the barges.

Caverat II
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:00:00 - [273]
 

Finally! Wink but I am wondering that bill of materials on Orca BPO doesnt contains capital drone bay and capital corporate hangar when Orca have them Sad Should be added Exclamation

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2008.10.24 12:09:00 - [274]
 

general replies to some questions and clarifications

Clarifications



1. The Orca uses stargates and does not have a jump drive.

I realise this can get confusing with the various tiers of capital ships out there and the mixed referencing of it as a sub-capital or command ship. Its a Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship (SCICS), I have spoken!

2. The Orca can have 3 gang links active by default

I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful.

3. what's this about the x-large ship assembly array?

All current large ship assembly arrays which are only anchorable in low sec are being renamed to x-large assembly array.

A new large ship assembly array is being added with Quantum Rise which can be anchored in high sec and allows manufacture of battleships, freighters and the orca.



Fixes



1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.

This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.

2. The sensor strength is silly

it has been reduced to more sane values. (Not that being jammed is a huge drawback.)

3. The capacitor recharge was a little too high

This has been reduced a little to more normal levels so we do not have a really high recharge rate.

4. Why does it not require capital corporate hangar bay component to build?

it should and we are looking at adding 4 of those to the material requirements.


Things we are looking at changing



1. Increasing the drone bay capacity to 75m3 and bandwidth to 50 mbit/sec

This is not a bad suggestion and we are looking into it.

2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3

This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.

3. Adding a 4th med slot

This is being looked into to add some flexibility and shield tanking potential.


General Opinions and Responses



1. It is a 'jack of all trades' and master of none

This is more a symptom of its primary bonus being cargo capacity rather than having a special ore hold which we would like to add in the future (along with special holds for other ships such as fuel bays for dreads and so on).

The addition of the ship maintenance bay which is not big enough to carry battleships (on purpose) but carry 2 hulks makes it role also swap a lot between general hauler and mining specialist and it suffers the same as the rorqual to an extent.

I believe in the future we will have much more focus for the ships with the addition of special hold for example then the intended role is much more defined than its less intended roles.

2. Why does it not mine?

This is deliberate, now is not the time to be adding giant asteroid eaters and we firmly believe that mining whilst not the most interactive or exciting mechanic (we have plans to address that) is a social mechanic and introducing ships which can swallow whole belts would be more harm than good. However we are not ruling out specialist ships in the future where a good niche is found for them.

3. Why does it not compress ore like the rorqual?

This comes down to balancing of the cost effectiveness. The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.


Unity Love
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:11:00 - [275]
 

^ Thanks, cleared up some issues and the (possible) changes look like it's on the track to becoming a very good ship.

Una D
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:19:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Una D on 24/10/2008 12:20:56
Problem here is that it's still just a glorified can. The big thing about mineral compression is that you do not need 1 hauler per 3 hulks. I know that you are trying to do 2 things in one ship but I don't see how it would be overpowered by the compression. Rorqual is still a far better ship (I guess that mineral compression would be linked to deploying the industrial reconfiguration module so you are still stuck in space just like rorqual) that can actually support a real mining op in 0.0.

This would also lower the tedious work of hauling low ends to 0.0 as there will be compressed ore available (perhaps limit the compression only to low end ores (high + low sec ones but not the high end stuff from 0.0).

Whatever this ship does lowering amount of haulers per hulk should be main priority. Compression is the best solution as you can't haul in orca without losing the mining link bonuses.

PS: I have no idea what CCP has been saying about fixing hauling problems (mentioned in the devs last post). Anyone have an idea about it?

Kerdrak
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:22:00 - [277]
 

I think the volume of the ship is too high for the size of the ship model (smaller than an Apoc). The ship should be able to be be transported, at least, packaged in a jump frighter.

rednose3
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:22:00 - [278]
 

Good clarification and thank you for listening to the players.

My comments:
1. For a mining HQ ship, it should be able to do Squad+ of med drones
2. I would NOT make the shield/armor too strong, as it will lead to a "mixed mission syndrome" (more below)
3. Nothing I saw in the description mandated the skill of cap tractor beams. I would clarify that (even thou it is obvious from the module)
4. I agree with Transport Ships requirement to IV.
5. I agree with reducing the Barge to IV.
6. I would ask for a large undocking delay for ships coming out of the ship hanger (more below). Please dont spam me...Wink


mixed mission syndrome:
This ship will be a must for all unless its purpose is clarified vis-a-vis some modification. In its current config, it will be The ship to have because:
1) It is a mobile HQ
2) Nothing was said about the gang mods being mining mods. As I read it, it will make the PERFECT "in system and away from battle" command ship. It will in fact cause a nerf for Command Ships, for Battleships, for Haulers and for miners. Add to this the fact that it is NOT race dependent, and all will train it.
3) Corps/alliances can just put an entire fleet into 3 or 4 of these, warp them and start a battle.
4) Because of #3 above, it will also, in effect, nerf POS corp hangers.

My 20 cents.Razz

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.24 12:40:00 - [279]
 

Just out of interest, how long is this ship ?

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:00:00 - [280]
 

Very ncie Chronotis. Now release the puppet!

splintercellxxx
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:22:00 - [281]
 

this all looks good working on mining director 5 till this toy come's into play but the way I see it it could really use a bit more tank.

i mean its cool to have a + 600 mill costing ship all fitted/rigged up but putting t2 rigs on it without having a decent tank i don't think much people will do that.

other then that props for ccp to give us new toys to play with !

Gilgamoth
Minmatar
Eldritch Storm
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:28:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
general replies to some questions and clarifications

Thanks for the clarifications Chronotis. Are we going to get a boost to the tractor beam speed if it's going to take over a minute to bring a can from max distance?

Regards,

Gil

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:35:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: rednose3
3. Nothing I saw in the description mandated the skill of cap tractor beams. I would clarify that (even thou it is obvious from the module)


It can't use capital tractor beams, it gets a bonus to small tractor beams instead.

Quote:
4. I agree with Transport Ships requirement to IV.


Transport Ships is a T2 skill this is a T1 ship. No T1 ship requires a T2 skill.

Quote:
6. I would ask for a large undocking delay for ships coming out of the ship hanger (more below). Please dont spam me...Wink


They don't undock, why on earth a delay?

Quote:
1) It is a mobile HQ


Ah, not nearly as mobile as a rorqual or carrier. Alot more fragile than both also.

Quote:
2) Nothing was said about the gang mods being mining mods. As I read it, it will make the PERFECT "in system and away from battle" command ship. It will in fact cause a nerf for Command Ships, for Battleships, for Haulers and for miners. Add to this the fact that it is NOT race dependent, and all will train it.


Normal command ships are cheaper, more agile, and get bonuses to combat gang links. As well they can run 3 gang links without coprocessors.

Quote:
3) Corps/alliances can just put an entire fleet into 3 or 4 of these, warp them and start a battle.


It can't fit a single battleship in it.

Quote:
4) Because of #3 above, it will also, in effect, nerf POS corp hangers.


1.4 million M3 for a corp POS hangar, 30,000 m3 for this ships corp hangar. Explain how these are in anyway similar ?

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:36:00 - [284]
 

Having seen the test server version now, I have an additional though:

I am actually kinda disappointed in the build requirements. By only using components who's BPOs cost a billion each (rather then a mix of high and low cost BPOs), construction of this ship has been put of the reach of smaller corps and, more importantly, makes it difficult to have mixed teams working on the ship, thus cutting out younger builders from the process.

It would have been nice to see a mix of requirements so older (and richer) builders could build the big expensive parts but younger ones can still contribute.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:41:00 - [285]
 

Capital Cargo Bay is one of the lowish cost capital BPOs (750m) and it requires the most of those. Not sure what else you could do, since it is / was always going to require capital BPs.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:43:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.

Umm... then why does the activation cost link exist and is not something more useful?

Please add to the description can run 2 gang links simultaneously in similar language to the Fleet Commandships.

Fergus Runkle
Minmatar
Truth and Reconciliation Council
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:44:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
general replies to some questions and clarifications

Clarifications



2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default

I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.




Then the one I have on SISI must be a pre-production one as I can only activate 1 ganglink at a time. When I try to online a second I am told there is already something using the resources required. (yes I am using two different links)


Ottman
Amarr
LoneWolf Mining
Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:48:00 - [288]
 

as i already thought, you just support the needs of the big guys, but not all want to be a pet of the big alliances, and those pilots who do industrial work maybe with max one alt? with that ship you kick those players in the ass, because in empire the big alliances will wipe out whole system belts. those who do their mining solo have no lobby and dont get anything worth it grabbing it. with the orca the single miners who play eve for years get another kick in the ass, and the demand of a similar ship of capable doing mining with strip miners will be ignored. and no ccp not all will follow your point of view and go into big alliances, they rather just quit eve, how many money must you loose before you realize it you cant force players into your mental picture that you have of eve ? there will be enough players who have no interest to join alliances that will be falling apart soon when those craving for quick power dont get what they hoped or worse, they are screwed and yell for mom .

a ship similar to orca for highsec, but capable of using strip miners is needed, and no its not whining, if ccp brings up the orca, then you ccp strengthen the bigger corps and alliances, but those who have no lobby inside eve get nothing, and i dont see any rebalancing about that, so dont wonder if patches are called nerf fests and are rather feared than wanted. those with big lobby are happy about orca because they get their needs feeded and call others who requests their needs whiner, starting a flaming war against them that the request about the needs of smaller corps and alliances is getting lost in all the flaming that is done in forums, and i dont post often in it, and when i post, then i dont read, quote or answer to the postings of others much, i just do statements, thats it, the only way not to get caught in the flaming trap set up by big corps and alliances to prevent that smaller corps and alliances to get noticed by ccp.

and no, i dont quit eve, but i can understand those who are ****ed and leave, not all have patience like me with ccp, and just grab my right to say what i think, not caring about flaming that will follow, i have said what i think why flaming is done, and i expect flaming after this post putting finger into the wound of the truth hehe.

MfG ottman

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:54:00 - [289]
 

DON'T CHANGE THE SKILL REQS ... I like them as low as they are ... makes the ship usable also without the gang links ...

Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr
Inadeptus Mechanicus
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:54:00 - [290]
 

question: can freighters pick up stuff from the corp hangar array on the orca?


Gilgamoth
Minmatar
Eldritch Storm
Posted - 2008.10.24 13:57:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Nekopyat
Having seen the test server version now, I have an additional though:

I am actually kinda disappointed in the build requirements. By only using components who's BPOs cost a billion each (rather then a mix of high and low cost BPOs), construction of this ship has been put of the reach of smaller corps and, more importantly, makes it difficult to have mixed teams working on the ship, thus cutting out younger builders from the process.

I must admit I've just done the sums and I'm horrified! If the numbers on Sisi were to be believed, it looks like it's gonna cost around 450m to make, but cost you 9bil ISK for all the BPO's to make one. All the BPO's to build a freighter are only about 7b ISK. This make Gil cry Crying or Very sad

Regards,

Gil

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:01:00 - [292]
 

wow if those changed did happen... kind of ruined the ship.

No perm run xl shield booster means the tank is <150 dps tank? Or even less...

Kind of stated that the ship wont have the option to pop a bs in ship maintenance... which destroys the whole point of having a ship maintenance of moving around ships which are rigged. Honestly who needs to move 2 hulks? I certainly dont... I do need to move a hulk and iteron 5. But cant do that. I need to move my rigged dominix or cnr. Cant do that.

There's no point... I have to make extra trips which defeats the purpose... I could just fly the ship themselves.

Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:03:00 - [293]
 

Thanks for the uptade Chronitis, it's appreciated. :)


Originally by: CCP Chronotis
general replies to some questions and clarifications

Clarifications



1. The Orca uses stargates and does not have a jump drive.

I realise this can get confusing with the various tiers of capital ships out there and the mixed referencing of it as a sub-capital or command ship. Its a Sub Capital Industrial Command Ship (SCICS), I have spoken!



Do you plan to add eventually Sub Capital combat ships, to bridge the gap between battleships and capital ships?


Quote:

2. The Orca can have 2 gang links active by default

I never mentioned this in the original blog but it was designed this way. In all honesty, you only ever need the mining laser range and duration links as the activation cost link is not really all that useful but if you really want a third link on you need a command processor.



Nice to know.

Quote:

Fixes



1. The required skill for Industrial Command Ships to be changed from Mining Foreman to Mining Director 1.

This was honestly an oversight on my part. It should require the same minimum skill as the mining foreman ganglinks.

2. The sensor strength is silly

it has been reduced to more sane values. (Not that being jammed is a huge drawback.)

3. The capacitor recharge was a little too high

This has been reduced a little to more normal levels so we do not have a really high recharge rate.

4. Why does it not require capital corporate hangar bay component to build?

it should and we are looking at adding 4 of those to the material requirements.

2. Increasing capacity of the corporate hangar bay to 40,000m3

This is a reasonable increase in capacity without making the ship overly powerful.

3. Adding a 4th med slot

This is being looked into to add some flexibility and shield tanking potential.



I'm dubious about removing some of it's cap recharge, as this ship seem intended to tank spawns as well giving bonuses and doing stuff. I guess that as long as doing it doesn't require overly optimised setups, like gistii-small shield boosters hulks, and leave slots alaivables for other things than the tank and cap recharge, it will be fine.

Thumbs up for the other potential changes.

Quote:

The majority of reasoning behind wanting it to compress is for veldspar specifically and we have plans in motion (which you have read about in the past) which will ease this issue specifically.



Could we have some update about those plans? You decided how you want to handle it?

Una D
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:04:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
question: can freighters pick up stuff from the corp hangar array on the orca?




As far as I can tell it's a big no to that. That is why it needs mineral compression. Of course it's preliminary data from Sisi but I haven't seen CCP say anything about it that would contradict the sisi findings.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=904895&page=3#65

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:05:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Gilgamoth

I must admit I've just done the sums and I'm horrified! If the numbers on Sisi were to be believed, it looks like it's gonna cost around 450m to make, but cost you 9bil ISK for all the BPO's to make one. All the BPO's to build a freighter are only about 7b ISK. This make Gil cry Crying or Very sad

Regards,

Gil

Which is why the ships will be priced closer to 600m for a long time. Not to mention it will be a long time the demand will be pretty damn high and have it priced over a billion I suspect.

Falcon101
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:09:00 - [296]
 

Please do not add mining director to the required skills. If this ship is supposed to be a "Jack of all trades and master of none" why would you require such a skill? Only one of the "trades" for this ship will be using mining director skill.

Unity Love
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:16:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
wow if those changed did happen... kind of ruined the ship.

No perm run xl shield booster means the tank is <150 dps tank? Or even less...

Kind of stated that the ship wont have the option to pop a bs in ship maintenance... which destroys the whole point of having a ship maintenance of moving around ships which are rigged. Honestly who needs to move 2 hulks? I certainly dont... I do need to move a hulk and iteron 5. But cant do that. I need to move my rigged dominix or cnr. Cant do that.

There's no point... I have to make extra trips which defeats the purpose... I could just fly the ship themselves.

Mining director skill... please dont say you are going to do that. Waste of time to train for that for me. I dont ever join a fleet and the skill itself doesnt have an effect on individuals.



This ship is meant to be a mining support ship for small/medium corps in hi-sec. NOT a solo ship for ratting/solo mining. As Chronotis said in the above post "introducing ships which can swallow whole belts would be more harm than good," so stop asking for one.

GallenteCitizen0923475
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:28:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: hot****ingsforall on 24/10/2008 14:44:32
Edited by: hot****ingsforall on 24/10/2008 14:37:20
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Lufio II
I am not sure about this, but I read from the dev blog that this ship is basically giving the same type of bonus as the Rorqual, just a bit less, without the need of deploying it with an industrial core? Doesn't make this the Rorqual in its current state a bit useless in the first place in comparison (if you don't need the ore compression feature in the first place due to having a station in the same system and such?


You are missing the simple fact that it can go into high sec...............


Yeah not to mention I t does not make the rorq useless in the least way. Obviously you have never worked with 0.0 major industry, it is the combination of the rorqs ores compression and good jump distance that make it far better in low sec the orca, which would basically be a great bigf target. And I imagine even in empire they will make great targets just like freighters for war dec'ers :)

Also I am glad they did not make the skill stupidly low like so many seem to want, like Transport IV, or Barge IV? That ould make no sense at all, you could fly this but not a hulk, dumb. The whole idea of eve is speciallization and I am glad they made it so that not everybody can insta-train for it. I am also very pleased that it is weak defensivelly and lacks ore compression and jump abilities, ie cause its a cheap boat at only 400mil. We don't want super ships hidding in empire eating belts and destroying the economy, it still needs a balance, we dont want to make Empire have everything 0.0 has industry wise. Also people complaining that small corps cannont afford to build it themselves... DUR thats the whole idea, small noobie corps are not ment to be producing capital like ships easily. I think the costs work out brilliently (guy that builds capitals), more then a freighter, but less then a JF.

Gerardd
Caldari
ABBSIDEEIN HORDS OF DARKLIGHT
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:29:00 - [299]
 

What an absolutely beautiful ship!!!
I want one.
Badly.
One question though. It seems not possible to fit a capital tractor beam given the powergrid availability
Is that on purpose or an oversight?

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.24 14:32:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Gerardd
One question though. It seems not possible to fit a capital tractor beam given the powergrid availability
Is that on purpose or an oversight?


Current intention is that it uses the Small Tractor Beam I. The role bonuses result in a 70km range, and a tractor speed of 1km/s.

The hull has a base targeting range of 60km though. You'll need to train Long Range Targeting IV to get the full 70km, or fit a sensor booster.


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