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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:07:00 - [1]
 

In light of the numerous recent "omgz, fix DT" threads, I was thinking about doing a little experiment.

Starting now, and for every day for the rest of the year, why not tally up the DT delays and early starts and see where we land? If it turns out we arrive at a bazillion hours being lost by the end of the year due to delays, then we'll have a case to present to CCP; if it turns out the early starts outweigh the delays, then we'll have something we can shove down the whiners' throats. Either way, it's a win.

(The main question is whether CCP will allow this experiment to go on by not locking this data-gathering thread).

Now, I can't do this myself since DT happens to coincide with my lunch hour, and I can't monitor the cluster directly or via EVEMon or something similar, but I'll be glad to collect the data you guys provide.

So, starting today, could people kindly post daily when the server was up and accepting connection?

Today, Oct. 20, I understand it came up at 12.40 GMT…?

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:08:00 - [2]
 

Why not just ignore the whiners?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:12:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Why not just ignore the whiners?



I'll give it a try right now.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:13:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Why not just ignore the whiners?
Because ever so often, the whiners actually have a point… and if they don't they'll have a hard(er) time whining with a truth-sock stuck in their collective windpipes Razz

…also, it distracts me from doing the research I'm supposed to be doing during working hours.

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:15:00 - [5]
 

I would believe CCP has this too, but of course that's a hus hus tool. It might actually show us that...that we have gametime which we didn't get! Of crouse I'm not 100% sure if they EULA states 23h gameplay a day. Probably not, because patch days would also mean paid gaming time which in return they would have to compensate.

CrayC
Gallente
CrayC Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:30:00 - [6]
 

Oh Hai Mr. EULA, You Come Heer Often?

Quote:
While CCP attempts to have the System available at most times, CCP does not guarantee that the System will always be available, or that the System will not become unavailable during Game play. The System may become unavailable for a number of reasons, including without limitation during the performance of maintenance to the System, for the implementation of new software, for emergency situations and due to equipment or telecommunications failures.


Case closed... Rolling Eyes

Lady Karma
Posted - 2008.10.20 13:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tippia
then we'll have a case to present to CCP


A case to present?! What drugs are you on.

You> Hey CCP, I wasn't able to play EVE for the entire 23hours a day
CCP>Get a job.

Jimi Tetro
Vanquish Inc
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:01:00 - [8]
 

The volume of days where DT is only 30-40mins easily makes up for the days it runs over by 15mins.


Abrynn
Minmatar
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:03:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Abrynn on 20/10/2008 14:04:30
Originally by: Jimi Tetro
The volume of days where DT is only 30-40mins easily makes up for the days it runs over by 15mins.




Prolly but what about when they patch the servers and they are down for 6 hrs longer then they were suppose to be?? i think its a valid thing to look into i mean hell y not.

Not to mention when the sever just goes down for hrs for no reason

(the Edit is for the last line ^^)

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: CrayC
Oh Hai Mr. EULA, You Come Heer Often?

Quote:
While CCP attempts to have the System available at most times, CCP does not guarantee that the System will always be available, or that the System will not become unavailable during Game play. The System may become unavailable for a number of reasons, including without limitation during the performance of maintenance to the System, for the implementation of new software, for emergency situations and due to equipment or telecommunications failures.


Case closed... Rolling Eyes


CCP actually don't agree to have the system available at all, they could simply turn it off and walk away tomorrow. I bet that would causing whining, but it would be fine with the EULA.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:07:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jimi Tetro
The volume of days where DT is only 30-40mins easily makes up for the days it runs over by 15mins.




If you include the days in 2004 where you actually got 30minute downtimes, then sure.

Angel Lightbringer
Caldari
Nexus Shipyards
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jimi Tetro
The volume of days where DT is only 30-40mins easily makes up for the days it runs over by 15mins.

This.

I don't know what's with people lately, thinking they own the ocmpany or something.

Some people needs to get a job, or a life, or both!

As read elsewhere: If you can't live with a delay in your game from time to time, seek help. Serious.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:20:00 - [13]
 

If any CCP staff are reading this, perhaps they might let us know whether this information is logged? Also, perhaps the people at http://eve.coldfront.net might be able to help? They keep their own logs of when the server goes up and how many people are online.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Angel Lightbringer
Originally by: Jimi Tetro
The volume of days where DT is only 30-40mins easily makes up for the days it runs over by 15mins.

This.

I don't know what's with people lately, thinking they own the ocmpany or something.

Some people needs to get a job, or a life, or both!

As read elsewhere: If you can't live with a delay in your game from time to time, seek help. Serious.


I think it's the fact that people do have lives and jobs, they appreciate the game being around when it's supposed to be, because they're busy with their lives the rest of the time. It's about managing expectations, they just need to tell people that the game won't be available and people will stop sitting there waiting for it to be available *soon*. They don't 'actually' need to bring the server up any earlier.

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:27:00 - [15]
 

Not that me saying this will have any effect on people who already think otherwise. If you're already thinking we tend to lie about our server statistics I don't see why me saying otherwise will convince you. Wink

Assuming server uptime at 1200 GMT.
Ignoring excessive downtime from maintenance and such.
Summing up lost or gained minutes from early or delayed startup.


It would probably do CCP very good to change it's business model to account for lost/gained minutes for our customers. Of course nobody would accept having a volatile subscription fee based on early/delayed uptime.. unless the fee would only go down, never up. But you can't both have your cake and eat it so that ain't happening. Wink

Nate D
Hell's Rejects
The Council.
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
It would probably do CCP very good to change it's business model to account for lost/gained minutes for our customers. Of course nobody would accept having a volatile subscription fee based on early/delayed uptime.. unless the fee would only go down, never up. But you can't both have your cake and eat it so that ain't happening. Wink


He's got a point.

Though I like the idea about gathering data. If it turns out that the average downtime is 1h 30m then CCP should make that the official timer. I really think CCP just needs to increase the time they allot themselves for DT so they can have noticeably more early starts than late ones.

Raving Gerbil
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Not that me saying this will have any effect on people who already think otherwise. If you're already thinking we tend to lie about our server statistics I don't see why me saying otherwise will convince you. Wink

Assuming server uptime at 1200 GMT.
Ignoring excessive downtime from maintenance and such.
Summing up lost or gained minutes from early or delayed startup.


It would probably do CCP very good to change it's business model to account for lost/gained minutes for our customers. Of course nobody would accept having a volatile subscription fee based on early/delayed uptime.. unless the fee would only go down, never up. But you can't both have your cake and eat it so that ain't happening. Wink


I said it once and ill say it again.. I would rather a server up late and working than on time or early and broke...

CCP should just have a position like this "Downtime usually lasts around 1 hour, sometimes it runs over, sometimes its early, this is random and depends on daily server conditions and/or downtime workloads"

People who are going mental over 10mins here and 20mins there need to get their heads checked, because being that anal over a game is borderline idiotic.

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tippia
In light of the numerous recent "omgz, fix DT" threads, I was thinking about doing a little experiment.

Starting now, and for every day for the rest of the year, why not tally up the DT delays and early starts and see where we land? If it turns out we arrive at a bazillion hours being lost by the end of the year due to delays, then we'll have a case to present to CCP; if it turns out the early starts outweigh the delays, then we'll have something we can shove down the whiners' throats. Either way, it's a win.

(The main question is whether CCP will allow this experiment to go on by not locking this data-gathering thread).

Now, I can't do this myself since DT happens to coincide with my lunch hour, and I can't monitor the cluster directly or via EVEMon or something similar, but I'll be glad to collect the data you guys provide.

So, starting today, could people kindly post daily when the server was up and accepting connection?

Today, Oct. 20, I understand it came up at 12.40 GMT…?


Well that would be a lot of time wasted counting minutes and there would be no case.
From the EULA

12# NO WARRANTIES
While CCP attempts to have the System available at most times, CCP does not guarantee that the System will always be available, or that the System will not become unavailable during Game play. The System may become unavailable for a number of reasons, including without limitation during the performance of maintenance to the System, for the implementation of new software, for emergency situations and due to equipment or telecommunications failures.

OR you could look @ it this way.
23 hours / 24 Hours = 95.8 % Availability
22 hours / 24 Hours = 91.6 % Availability

I serious doubt even with day long outages for expansions it even comes up to a consistent 22 Hour average.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: CrayC
Oh Hai Mr. EULA, You Come Heer Often?

Originally by: Korizan
Well that would be a lot of time wasted counting minutes and there would be no case.
From the EULA […]
I think you misunderstood the tone of my post — the case wouldn't be "you're breaking the contract, fix!", but rather "maybe you should put downtime 11.00-whenever on the login screen". Razz

…and that would be if it actually turned out that the delays were more numerous, which I sincerely doubt.

Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.10.20 14:59:00 - [20]
 

Voting for CCP making a daily 6 hour DT.

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.10.20 15:05:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Dmian on 20/10/2008 15:05:20

First a disclaimer: Whatever CCP do with the server or the game it's fine by me. I can't claim to know better than them how to manage a MMORPG. So take my opinion as that, the humble opinion of a player with practically no knoledge of how to manage a MMORPG. Besides, The DT doesn't affect me at all, since I'm at work when the server is down.

Seeing the significant numbers of threads whining about DT lately, some of them are made by Australians whose playing time coincides with the DT and others by anxious gentlemen that simply "can't wait" to log-in. Laughing

First of all, EULA and TOS are your friends. Read both of it. Really.

Second, while CCP Prism X was kind enough to reply here, the devs are there to do their jobs, they can't be here all day answering all the whining. You all know this, or should know it.

Third, to the OP: I think Chribba has numbers. (As seen here.) Ask Chribba and he might be kind enough to give you the info. Just call him using the magic words (veldspar, veldspar! VELDSPAR!) But I don't think that will make your life happier either.

Fourth: there's something that disturbs me a little, seeing the eve-offline.net graphics and remembering the Aussies... It looks like the DT is not in the valley of the chart (when there is the least numbers of players) but right when the graph is starting to climb. Seeing the images it looks like the best time for a DT would be around 6-7 am. Or in any case, first thing to do in the office as the people arrive in the morning, and not during lunch time.
By this I'm not asking CCP to change anything, just something that I don't understand, but that probably must have its logic.

CrayC
Gallente
CrayC Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.20 17:14:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Tippia
I think you misunderstood the tone of my post — the case wouldn't be "you're breaking the contract, fix!", but rather "maybe you should put downtime 11.00-whenever on the login screen".


Given the tone of the post, it's a lot easier to assume "FIXIT!!!" rather than "Change MOTD". Besides, more often than not over the past 5 years, have the server either been on time (within 2 minutes on both sides) or early. Especially the weekend 20-30 minute downtimes light up the statistics like a christmastree. And then there are some server issues and everybody and their alt complain...

Freya Runestone
Posted - 2008.10.20 17:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Why not just ignore the whiners?

QFT. The whiners will ignore your findings anyway and continue to whine.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.10.20 17:59:00 - [24]
 

Depending on how accurate the information Chribba or coldfront has, you could easily sum the total downtimes for the last year or so and average it out (minus patch deployments)

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.10.20 18:35:00 - [25]
 

I've said it once, i'll say it again, declare the downtime as a 2 hour long and it'll never be late, and always early Very Happy

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.21 11:49:00 - [26]
 

Oct. 21, started at 11.46 GMT, 14 minutes early.
Total tally: 26 minutes.

mr passie
Minmatar
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2008.10.21 13:49:00 - [27]
 

I DEMAND Downtime has to be extended to 4h a day so I can come home from work, log in and catch all the after dt factions spawns.

Anyone not agreeing tot this is an idiot and no one wants to be an idiot right....RIGHT!!!!

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.21 14:03:00 - [28]
 

Off topic and flaming posts removed.

OneSock
Crown Industries
Posted - 2008.10.21 16:01:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
But you can't both have your cake and eat it so that ain't happening. Wink


Tell that to the cake in my cake tin !

Which puts me in mind of a slice and a cup of coffee.... brb...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.21 17:33:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
But you can't both have your cake and eat it so that ain't happening. Wink
Pff! You can't eat your cake without having it first, so that makes no sense at all… Razz


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