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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2008.10.30 00:15:00 - [631]
 

Originally by: Rip Striker
The Cerb is not a HAM ship. It's design prevents it from fighting close range, that is, it has no resistance/shield bonuses as the other close combat shis.

Fly safe! Smile
I use the cerb in small gangs (which will apparently no longer exist after patch), always using high orbit against a target which had been previously tackled / webbed. Makes for a vastly superior damage output, not to mention you don't need to fit three sensor boosters for long-range damage to work.

However, I've learned that since I'm a LoSec dweller, not a 0sec dweller, my playstyle doesn't matter Sad

Oh. And I fit defenders on my Eagle. I suppose that's a bad idea as well.

UrsaeMajoris
Posted - 2008.10.30 07:24:00 - [632]
 

Originally by: Shard Merchant
Can you even post without reusing and then bastardizing my rhetoric?


Sure, when you stop posting said, needless rhetoric.

Originally by: Shard Merchant
How am I 'thinking wishfully' by expecting CCP to tweak Rage for the role they themselves decided on?


As it stands, Rage ammo has been tweaked to require more support (than normally on TQ) to be able to deal full damage to ship classes of the same type and almost none for bigger class targets.
They are not making it exclusively for bigger targets only, as the combination of the fact that Rage explosion radius increase is not in line with Fury, along with Fendahl stating that Rage ammo does "very poor damage against targets of the same class and lower (if they are speed tanking)." proves this.

Right now on SISI, you need either a support ship or 2 target painters equipped on the usual Rage torp boats for explosion radius to match the signature radius of most battleship-sized targets. As screwed as it is fitting 2 painters, it's doable but compromises tanking.
There's a huge difference between needing 2 painters to compensate for 650m explosion radius, and 4-5 for 823-850m which would pretty much make any torp boat lack any kind of tank.
Eitherway, I still am of the opinion that SISI's Rage ammo explosion radius and damage stats should not come to pass on TQ.

Originally by: Shard Merchant
You can't say I'm the only one who wants this, and then whinge at CCP to reconsider doing the same damn thing. That's some contradictory roofle, Jeeves


No, just some misunderstanding 'roofle'. Let me extend what I was trying to say:
T2 Rage/Fury ammo is being changed from a specialised, upgraded, high-damage ammo designed for ships of the same class to "Use this only for bigger targets unless you have extra support modules/skills.".

Let me point it out again, if CCP truly, and really wanted to make Rage ammo for bigger targets only, they would have scaled the damage vs explosion radius in the same manner as Fury.

Originally by: Shard Merchant
Um, lol? Discussing SISI stats in a SISI thread on a SISI forum and then using TQ values to make your case is one red herring.


lolwut?
Let me say it for you again because you seem to have misinterpreted me:
I understand and support the changes CCP have made to Fury over faction - I understand and support how on SISI, Fury damage and Fury explosion radius are both larger than Faction.
Why do I support those changes?
Because on TQ, Fury and Faction have very, very little to no damage or explosion radius differences between each other.
And also because on TQ, Rage and it's Faction counterpart do have a difference in damage and explosion radius, so naturally Fury and Faction should do the same (which it has, as shown on SISI).
But I do not support how while Fury and Faction got an actual notable damage and explosion radius difference, Rage and Faction differences was expanded further.

To summarise:
I support Rage and Fury ammo having notable damage and explosion radius differences over their respective faction counterparts because on TQ Fury doesnt and Rage does, and now on SISI Fury does and Rage still does but they didn't leave Rage alone, they tweaked it which in my honest opinion, didn't need the exp and damage tweaking they gave it.

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.10.30 09:49:00 - [633]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses


Oh. And I fit defenders on my Eagle. I suppose that's a bad idea as well.


It certainly sounds useless but perhaps you can expalin the reasoning?

Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari
Sarum Industries
Posted - 2008.10.30 09:58:00 - [634]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Sylthi

Oh? Confused You mean use the little things, that on MOST PvE missions that have interceptors, also drawn instant entire room aggro? No offense, but yeah, GREAT PLAN...... Rolling Eyes If you LIKE loosing ships that is.

I think this MIGHT have been one of the logical issues they may have been talking about..... Or, maybe it's just me. ugh



Drone Settings -> Passive mode.



Thing is, it doesn't work that easy as already mentioned in this thread, several missions will give you room aggro for just deploying your drones, them not even shooting anything and set to passive mode.

Prime example is Worlds collide mission lvl 4 stage 2.

Now if you tell us that deployed drones that didn't aggro antything causing npc aggression is not working as intended, I happily will file a bug report for this...

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:14:00 - [635]
 

Edited by: dojocan81 on 05/11/2008 11:32:27
Hi CCP Nozh, hi CCP Fendahl

You should consider to add a "Tracking Enhancer" module for missiles. Iam aware of telling you that some of the missiles with the new formula, become unuseable in pve or in pvp ... for example cruise missiles are way to unbalanced against cruisers and battlecruisers ... not to talk about frigates

Currently we have, for example for Hybrid Weapons, following low slot modules to increase the dmg output or the accuracy:

MFS II
10 % dmg
10,5 rof

and

TE II
15 % optimal
9,5% tracking

For Missiles we have only the Ballistic Control Unit

BCU II
10% dmg
10,5 rof

I would like to see a module which affects explosion velocity and explosion radius for missiles .. something, call it Missile Subsystem Controller or what ever, for Missiles for low slot

MSC II
7,5% reduction on Explosion Radius of missiles
10,5% bonus to Explosion Velocity of missiles

than people can decide to add a BCU II for doing more dmg or a MSC II to hit better targets with missiles

besides i have run some tests on sisi too .... but i managed the hole new missile system in making graphs to show me and my corp mates if missiles are good or bad .... working on basic with the new missile formula which some ppl, espsecially Stefan, manageded to discover through running similiar tests on sisi and tq, i have some nice results .. there aren't soooo bad, but it could be better.

However, i think this would solve many many problems in the near future, ecspecially for PVE and PVP

hopefully you'll read this

sorry, english isnt my native language ...
greek or german, choose it :P

thx

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:32:00 - [636]
 

Originally by: dojocan81

Hi Nozh

You should consider to add a "Tracking Enhancer" module for missiles.


It exists, it's called the Target Painter.

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:38:00 - [637]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: dojocan81

Hi Nozh

You should consider to add a "Tracking Enhancer" module for missiles.


It exists, it's called the Target Painter.


Target Painter falls under the category of EW, not Weapon Upgrades and iam talking about weapon upgrades

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:42:00 - [638]
 

It has exactly the effect that you desire.

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:46:00 - [639]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
It has exactly the effect that you desire.


I know, but webifiers for example have the same effect like Tracking Enhancer as well ...
but all two types of modules exist in-game



Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2008.10.30 10:46:00 - [640]
 

Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Sylthi

Oh? Confused You mean use the little things, that on MOST PvE missions that have interceptors, also drawn instant entire room aggro? No offense, but yeah, GREAT PLAN...... Rolling Eyes If you LIKE loosing ships that is.

I think this MIGHT have been one of the logical issues they may have been talking about..... Or, maybe it's just me. ugh



Drone Settings -> Passive mode.



Thing is, it doesn't work that easy as already mentioned in this thread, several missions will give you room aggro for just deploying your drones, them not even shooting anything and set to passive mode.

Prime example is Worlds collide mission lvl 4 stage 2.

Now if you tell us that deployed drones that didn't aggro antything causing npc aggression is not working as intended, I happily will file a bug report for this...


which combination ? the angel/blood WC4 does not show this behavior ... I did a few in a sentry domi and never got full room aggro for deploying drones (and I cleared the whole thing myself).

UrsaeMajoris
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:04:00 - [641]
 

Originally by: dojocan81
Originally by: Gypsio III
It has exactly the effect that you desire.


I know, but webifiers for example have the same effect like Tracking Enhancer as well ...
but all two types of modules exist in-game





Do you mean a module that decreases explosion radius or increases explosion velocity of the equipped ship's missiles?

dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:13:00 - [642]
 

Originally by: UrsaeMajoris

Do you mean a module that decreases explosion radius or increases explosion velocity of the equipped ship's missiles?


Yes, I mean a module which decreases explosion radius and increase explosion velocity of equipped missiles on your ship

Vigaz
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:26:00 - [643]
 

Edited by: Vigaz on 30/10/2008 11:29:35
Dear CCP,
Can we have at least a word regarding SB? Even Gypsio III (he is always agree with CCP guideline that I suspect him to be part of the company Smile) wasn't able to say that it works as intended. pls look it. In Sisi it's dead.






dojocan81
Caminus Trux Germani
Ewoks
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:37:00 - [644]
 

as for the SB issue

Currently cruise missiles have a drf (Damage Reduction Factor) of 4,5 (fury = 4,7, prec = 3,5)

If SB's get a static bonus to reduce the drf on cruise missiles, i think this would solve the current problem with them, not hitting anymore small targets

but i think ccp want to make them more suitable against bigger ships than against smaller

Locii
Posted - 2008.10.30 11:51:00 - [645]
 

just had a go on sisi... are they kidding with this? april the first?

my cruise missile damage dropped by 20% v a mission bs and 50%+ on crusiers. didnt want to try shooting frigs as im a grown man and i dont like to cry...lol

Vigaz
Posted - 2008.10.30 12:02:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: dojocan81
as for the SB issue

Currently cruise missiles have a drf (Damage Reduction Factor) of 4,5 (fury = 4,7, prec = 3,5)

If SB's get a static bonus to reduce the drf on cruise missiles, i think this would solve the current problem with them, not hitting anymore small targets

but i think ccp want to make them more suitable against bigger ships than against smaller


SB + max skills + top fitting + race dmg bonus = 300dps against BC and bigger. A caracal (t1 cruiser) can do the same for less isk/SP.

It seems to me that CCP doenst have any ideas regarding SB (I guess it's not a priority for them). But It's a priority for me. Almost half of my time I fly SB.

here my stats:
http://killboard.frontal-impact.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=40588&view=ships_weapons




Sylthi
Minmatar
Coreward Pan-Galactic
Holy Empire of The Unshaven
Posted - 2008.10.30 12:55:00 - [647]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Sylthi

Oh? Confused You mean use the little things, that on MOST PvE missions that have interceptors, also drawn instant entire room aggro? No offense, but yeah, GREAT PLAN...... Rolling Eyes If you LIKE loosing ships that is.

I think this MIGHT have been one of the logical issues they may have been talking about..... Or, maybe it's just me. ugh



Drone Settings -> Passive mode.



Thing is, it doesn't work that easy as already mentioned in this thread, several missions will give you room aggro for just deploying your drones, them not even shooting anything and set to passive mode.

Prime example is Worlds collide mission lvl 4 stage 2.

Now if you tell us that deployed drones that didn't aggro antything causing npc aggression is not working as intended, I happily will file a bug report for this...


which combination ? the angel/blood WC4 does not show this behavior ... I did a few in a sentry domi and never got full room aggro for deploying drones (and I cleared the whole thing myself).


Specifically, Angel/Guristas is the one I am refering to. Admittedly, I have never flown the Angel/Blood combo, so I am going to have to take your word for this one. But, just so we're clear, your saying that in Angel/Blood, in the second pocket your sentries AND your normal drone DON'T draw aggro?!?!? Wow. Shocked Me smells a bug and/or exploit, one way or the other, and thinks you should keep exploiting the hell out of it sir! Or, better yet, the lazy devs, like Nozh, who never answered my post, (like I expected him to in the first place Rolling Eyes, they never answer you when you shoot down their excuses with sound facts Evil or Very Mad) should FIX the other versions that aren't the way you obviously enjoy so we can all start enjoying those missions as much as you have been. Cheers mate, and thanks for the info!

Delichon
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.10.30 15:18:00 - [648]
 

Originally by: Allen Ramses

However, I've learned that since I'm a LoSec dweller, not a 0sec dweller, my playstyle doesn't matter Sad


<humour>
Of course, it doesn't!
Luckly for you, my corpmate uses HAM-cerb for 0.0 gangs and is having a blast with it, so you still have a chance of playing The Game Right!
</humour>
Originally by: Allen Ramses

Oh. And I fit defenders on my Eagle. I suppose that's a bad idea as well.

Heretic!
Fit salvager instead! :)

On a serious note:
HAM-cerb is 80% of blaster-Deimos DPS with no tracking issues and applicable anywhere within 40km radius shpere.
If this does not fall under your definition of awesome, you're obviously doing it wrong.

The issue with HM-cerb is that it is simply just another kind of awesome.

And AML-cerb is half-awesome at what it does too (its' niche is a bit too small though)

Yes, that's right! Caldari get 2.5 awesome ships in 1!

KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
Posted - 2008.10.30 16:01:00 - [649]
 

Originally by: Sylthi
stuff about WC


Not to derail this thread too much into a discussion of WC aggro mechanics, but your drones will not draw aggro from the entire pocket so long as you don't use them to attack the two frigates that you get initial aggro from. You can use them attack the other three groups independently and they will not draw aggro from the other groups. Just kill those first two frigs last and you will be fine.

Q429
Posted - 2008.10.31 04:44:00 - [650]
 

Edited by: Q429 on 31/10/2008 04:50:47

Originally by: Delichon
<troll>Yes, that's right! Caldari get 2.5 awesome ships in 1!</troll>


fixed your tags for yaLaughing

Oh, and after finally finishing reading the whole thread, I'll have to admit that you've done nothing but argue that everything is okay.

Considering that 95% of the posters in this thread say that there are at least some problems in the new changes, that makes you either a Nohz alt, a troll, or a CCP fanboy.Rolling Eyes

Elea Electronica
Gallente
Dragon Enterprises
Posted - 2008.10.31 23:22:00 - [651]
 

Drones Passive = Drones dont auto aggro any rat, if rat is killed they comming back and orbit the ship.

Drones Agressiv = drones attack the first target that are attackt by the player, after rat is blown up they switch to next target.

it have nothing to do with Rat Drone Aggro, in most missions that you put out your drones the rats auto aggro them and try to kill the launcht drones first.

so sorry CCP Guy go back to work and ask one of the higher ppl inside your company about rat aggro formula.

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.11.01 03:33:00 - [652]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 03:34:07
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 03:33:21
You Isk Farmers do realise that the raven has a drone bay right?

I find it very funny that caldari pilots cried for this nerf. Nanos make missles uselss... And now you are all complianing about the very thing you begged for. So the truth is, you didn't want a nano rebalance, you wanted a Caldari boost.

Missles have been unbalanced for a long time. Torps shouldn't hit frigates, niether should cruise. They should do less damage to cruisers. I was an out spoken opponent of this nerf until I tested it. CCP you are heading in the right direction. Please don't turn around and head for Drakes Online.

*edits for spelling

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2008.11.01 04:46:00 - [653]
 

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 03:34:07


I find it very funny that caldari pilots cried for this nerf. Nanos make missles uselss... And now you are all complianing about the very thing you begged for. So the truth is, you didn't want a nano rebalance, you wanted a Caldari boost.




I have read most of the whine threads about the need to fix nanos. Really I have. Most of the complaints centered on the argument that they were able to engage and disengage from fights far too easily. I recall the occasional complaints by missile users that they could do zero damage to nanos while turrets could at least scratch the paint with some med range weapons or sniper setups. While this position has been stated, it was in no way the most common argument against nanos.

The largest group of complaints as to the need to fix nanos came from BS gang pilots that felt it unfair that RR gangs needed to field a minnie recon just to trap the nano ship. As we all know RR gangs are mostly made up of missile users right? Rolling Eyes

Missiles users have alot to gripe about in this patch, but to imply that missile user lead the charge to end nanos is at best false and at worst revisionist. You obviously have a bias against missiles, but try not to let that cloud the bit of reason you possess


Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2008.11.01 05:26:00 - [654]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48
Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?

Delichon
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.11.01 09:52:00 - [655]
 

Originally by: Q429

Oh, and after finally finishing reading the whole thread


You have WAY too much time on your hands :)
AND probably you take internet spaceships too seriously.
I don't, that's why you think I am trolling :)

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.11.01 09:58:00 - [656]
 

same class missiles, Cruise vs BS suffer 50% damage reduction - fact

guns have high quality shots, +25% to damage output

under sized missiles do more damage, almost 90% of theoretical DPS

isn't it just plain wrong?

no battleship can avoid being shot by other battleship, not at 10 km, not at 30 km, not even at 150 km

every battleship can escape missiles at all ranges

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2008.11.01 10:34:00 - [657]
 

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48
Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?


Under certain circumstance they can...

Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...


Vigaz
Posted - 2008.11.01 11:33:00 - [658]
 

Stealth Bombers are broken due to the new cruise exp velocity and new missile dmg formula. Can we have a DEV comment about SB situation in Sisi?


lebrata
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.11.01 12:15:00 - [659]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48
Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?


Under certain circumstance they can...

Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...




True but missiles now do low but constant dmg no matter the speed or sig of the target, both types have bad and good points.

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2008.11.01 14:53:00 - [660]
 

Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: TZeer
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/11/2008 05:26:48
Actually I have a few mil sp in missles and use them frequently on my sacrilege. You guys wanted a caldari boost. You can say what you'd like, but Caldari FW players and ratters pushed the majority of the nano whining. Torps and cruise shouldn't be able to hit small ships. How do you argue that? Large Laser turrets can't, large blasters can't, large projectiles can't. Where is the logic in letting missles do it?


Under certain circumstance they can...

Sit still and turrets can instapop the right targets, no matter what the sig radius is...




True but missiles now do low but constant dmg no matter the speed or sig of the target, both types have bad and good points.


But the damage is so small that it`s close to useless, a speedfitted vagabond with AB can passivetank a maxskilled cruiseraven on it`s lowest resists...

With turrets when you slow down a target enough the sig radius doesnt matter. You will land good hits and even wrecking hits. Missiles dont have that.

And even when you slow down the target the default sig on the ship is so small that the missile will have damagepenalty by default.

Because of the sig radius penalty, and the early stage the speed starts to bleed off damage, you end up with cruisers tanking the damage from a fully specced cruiseraven, no matter range, tracking or whatever.

Now, try and do the same with turrets. Start giving penalty on their damage based on gun sig resolution and targets singature radius. It would be terrible!

Cruise missiles was a good support weapon. A single cruiseraven could never beat a properly tanked BS. But it was very good at killing cruisers.

Now it will suck at both.

Even BS can reduce the default damage by 50% now, before adding resists by fitting an AB. And anything cruisersized it will do LOL damage against.

Now someone says, "But cruise is for sniping other BS" cruise was never used for that in fleetfights. Cruiseravens was antisupport.

And using them for shooting primaries is a waste of time. Gun plattforms will do it better, and any cruiseraven trying to shoot on primary will end up with 0 damage on the killmail.

Trying to have cruiseraven shooting secondary might work, if you have them trapped. But will generally alert the target that it will soon be primary, and give them a heads up from 5 lol cruiseraven sending missiles at them...


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