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Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:08:00 - [1]
 

This is a discussion about the state of roleplay in EVE since the arrival of Faction Warfare. Posted here as the IGS is in character only.

As a member of a roleplay alliance, I have been feeling hugely underwhelmed and isolated since EA deployment. We, The Ushra'Khan, are the oldest and largest Minmatar RP group in EVE. We are the third oldest alliance in EVE and have been persuing our goals of Matari Freedom for over four years. We have been involved in many of the major storylines through the now defunct event program, Aurora, and done our own part in driving the storyline forwards.

But, since the deployment of FW I have felt locked out of the RP scene. I don't feel that I can post in relation to FW as I have no input on it. I cannot interact meaningfully without abandoning the alliance, and people, that I have played alongside for years. The alliance cannot enter FW without disbanding.

So, where does this leave us? Can you still interact in any meaningful sense with the storyline and be in an alliance? The event program is over a year dead now, are we players still influencing the storyline? The EA novel totally ignored the playerbase to the point of wrapping up the Insorum arc, which alot of players took part in, without reffering at all to the Aurora events and player actions that took place in game.

Do we still influence the storyline? Are we still relevant? I have been asking myself this for months and can't find an answer. Without access to FW we can't truly 'come for our people'. What we do in 0.0 is largely divorced from the factions.

I have failed to find inspiration in months. I don't think it is just me but I would like to hear from others and what they are doing about it.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:18:00 - [2]
 

Hopefully CCP will be looking into implementing a mechanism for allowing alliances into FW under certain circumstances.

As far as I'm concerned the war just isn't the same without input from the U'K or the CVA.

However, the question isn't just whether or not alliances can influence the storyline. The question is whether or not corporations already in FW can affect things.

And sadly, the answer is looking increasingly like no.

Eran Laude
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:23:00 - [3]
 

Without CVA and U'K the Minmatar/Amarr front loses a lot of people who would love to fight each other in Faction Warfare.
CCP - fix plz

Antoine SaintJust
The Society for Creative Euthanasia
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:24:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Eran Laude
Without CVA and U'K the Minmatar/Amarr front loses a lot of people who would love to fight each other in Faction Warfare.
CCP - fix plz


Quote for ultimate truth.

Kilhu Emmek
Minmatar
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:15:00 - [5]
 

Yeah. I founded a "strict RP corp" (no OOC in corp channel, etc.) on the second day of launch. As far as I know, they're still going and still RPing. I left a while back for issues not entirely unrelated to RP (sort of, but it's a long, boring story).

Moved to 0.0. Made more isk in six months than I had in five years. Don't RP any more at all (and let's face it, 0.0 gameplay doesn't really lend itself to RP).

I'd more or less abandoned RP a long time ago, though, RPing only within the corp, ignoring the "events" (remember those?) after they were almost invariably "find the secret loot ship omg" and someone would jump on it within moments of it being announce (coincidence, I'm sure), ignoring the sporadic and rare bit of RP news (which has gotten a lot more constant, but not cohesive at all, that I can see).

The storyline in eve never really progressed along any kind of coherent lines, which is a damn shame--single world "server" state has a lot of potential for sweeping changes influenced, if not directed, by the player community. I really thought "this is the next step forward in MMOs" in beta and early launch. Failboat.

Then I held out hopes that the RP potential would some day get back on track, but when eve china went live, I resigned myself to that never happening (it's effectively a sharded server state now--they're not going to have separate story arcs for different servers). The fiction's nice, but ... it's not interactive. I just don't think storyline, (player) character driven RP is even on dev radar.

Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
Posted - 2008.10.16 18:12:00 - [6]
 

The current FW warfare game mechanics are simplified and most easy to implement game mechanics to get things started. I dislike the current rules, too. That's why I have formed my own little alliance, out of protest and to show sympathy for UK, CVA, EM, VV and many more. However I can understand the reasoning of the devs for their decision not to allow alliances in the first release.

For the future I do hope that dedicated RP alliances with sufficient standings will be able to join FW, too. The key would be the standings. Compared to the average alliance which usually does have very mixed standings the RP alliances of course have much more focused standings. Good standings of an alliance towards a faction should allow them to participate in FW. Currently alliances don't have their very own standings towards factions but I assume it can not be that hard to implement such standings based on the average of all the members of the alliance.

In the long run I also hope that those alliances who do not have a specialized standing will be able to show their backing for one side. In particular I have alliances such as Star Fraction in mind. Switching from one side to the other, f.e. from Amarr to Minmatar, should be extremely hard, though. So I believe my ideas will not please everyone.

Vendrin
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.10.16 19:51:00 - [7]
 

Ever since Aurora died RP in the game has gone way down. At least with Aurora we had the illusion of being able to affect the PF, but now it's just a pre written story and as Garreck said, when CCP decides to wrap FW up, it doesn't matter who is winning, one day during downtime everything will be retconned to match CCP's pre written story.

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2008.10.16 22:50:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Vendrin
Ever since Aurora died RP in the game has gone way down. At least with Aurora we had the illusion of being able to affect the PF, but now it's just a pre written story and as Garreck said, when CCP decides to wrap FW up, it doesn't matter who is winning, one day during downtime everything will be retconned to match CCP's pre written story.


Have to agree with Vendrin and any other Aurora gripes. I have become massively jaded when it comes to RP ever since Aurora was disbanded. That and the combination of factional warfare "endless pingpong" totally stole its thunder.

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.17 09:18:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Arderich
The current FW warfare game mechanics are simplified and most easy to implement game mechanics to get things started. I dislike the current rules, too. That's why I have formed my own little alliance, out of protest and to show sympathy for UK, CVA, EM, VV and many more. However I can understand the reasoning of the devs for their decision not to allow alliances in the first release.

For the future I do hope that dedicated RP alliances with sufficient standings will be able to join FW, too. The key would be the standings. Compared to the average alliance which usually does have very mixed standings the RP alliances of course have much more focused standings. Good standings of an alliance towards a faction should allow them to participate in FW. Currently alliances don't have their very own standings towards factions but I assume it can not be that hard to implement such standings based on the average of all the members of the alliance.

In the long run I also hope that those alliances who do not have a specialized standing will be able to show their backing for one side. In particular I have alliances such as Star Fraction in mind. Switching from one side to the other, f.e. from Amarr to Minmatar, should be extremely hard, though. So I believe my ideas will not please everyone.


I do think that is more to come with FW mechanics but given the utter lack of info coming out of CCP on what or when I'm not holding my breath for anything significant atm.

On the alliance inclusion/standinggs thing this was my concept put to the CSM, Jade has said that there may be a development on the horizon.

Linky

Originally by: Rodj Blake
As far as I'm concerned the war just isn't the same without input from the U'K or the CVA.


Nice to hear you guys say that,sometimes I wonder if its just the little voice in my head. Neutral

Aodha Khan
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.17 10:17:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Aodha Khan on 17/10/2008 10:24:44

I thought Ushra'Khan was anti-Republic? It's the Minmatar Republic who are fighting this war so I'm not sure what your missing on that front. You can still war dec the slaver corps...

There is much CCP can be doing to make Eve more immersive including actors who represent the factions, events, fixing the Eve universe (pirate stations, implement Thukker race etc etc....) and making faction warfare more meaningful. Sadly it all seems to have been neglected in favour of more items and ships for the powergaming crowd. Evil or Very Mad

Alliances being allowed into FW with sufficient standings sounds good to me but the standing should be high enough to keep out the riff raff. Twisted Evil

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aodha Khan
Edited by: Aodha Khan on 17/10/2008 10:24:44

I thought Ushra'Khan was anti-Republic? It's the Minmatar Republic who are fighting this war so I'm not sure what your missing on that front. You can still war dec the slaver corps...



Been there, done that. You can spend a kings ransom on war deccing 24IC members but you still can't liberate one system, or even a slave as there is still no mechanism for any of that.

The Ushra'Khan was anti-Midular, and she's all but gone. We wanted to see the Insorum prototype we held for 3 years come to something, it was resolved over an extended dt and the novel with no reference to the player input and event participation that we all tried to keep relevant for years.

With EA we largely got what we asked for. Midular is out, Shakor is in. The matari rose and insorum is a reality. Yet it all happened without the players and now we can't do what we set out to do anyway because of game mechanics.

We have our 0.0 goals which I consider valid (fighting against those who have supported the slavers) but it is severed from the main storyline.

And that is what bothers me. We used to be able to influence the storyline, now we can't. Now the storyline is tied up in FW, which was always inevitable as that is the embodiment of the empires at war.

I just can't find connection with the RP anymore and despite the fact we get more news pieces these days it has been ages since any of it inspired me to get on IGS to write something, let alone to actually lock and load and set AP to go achieve something.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:43:00 - [12]
 

Wait for ambulation, or the "RP add-on" Very Happy

Nate D
Hell's Rejects
The Council.
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:50:00 - [13]
 

Yes, RP in EVE needs a long overdue kick to the front of the ticket. I'd say that even before "EA" it was often difficult to understand what was happening in the RP scene from the outside.

Not only does RP need to be re-incorporated into the game, it needs to be made more visible... significantly.

Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:56:00 - [14]
 

Would FW withstand 5000 f*cking goons logged in and ready to go? Razz

Erim Kaluk
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
Posted - 2008.10.17 12:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Would FW withstand 5000 f*cking goons logged in and ready to go? Razz


You obviously haven't read Ugleb's proposals.

* Introduce and alliance standing for factions based on an average of all member corp's faction standings.

That would ensure only RP alliance's were able to join.




Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
Posted - 2008.10.17 12:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Erim Kaluk
Originally by: Dibsi Dei
Would FW withstand 5000 f*cking goons logged in and ready to go? Razz


You obviously haven't read Ugleb's proposals.

* Introduce and alliance standing for factions based on an average of all member corp's faction standings.

That would ensure only RP alliance's were able to join.

Oh

Erim Kaluk
Minmatar
Valklear Guard
Posted - 2008.10.17 12:19:00 - [17]
 

After being in FW for a little while now, it does seem that we need some RP element to take the lead.

Without it, it feels like a glorified capture the flag match.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.10.17 12:45:00 - [18]
 

There seems to be a huge gap between the team the "writes the story of EVE" and the team who implements actual content. These days big events seem to always happen during server downtime which is really a shame. In fact it feels a bit like WoW where, as we all know, no matter of player involvement has any real effect on the world/story. Maybe it is, like Kilhu said, due to EVE no longer being a single shard unique universe, but has a clone in China.

I was very disappointed when seeing the battlefield graveyards after EA started. Fluff that you in no possible way can interact with. What the content team should have done was to make the wrecks as salvage spawn containers that would spawn salvage components and scrap metal when people use Salvager modules on them. The potential income from this could easily be leveled out to an hourly income around a level 1 agent mission, and the graveyards could either be patrolled by hostile NPC salvagers or low threat rogue drones.

Nothing fancy, but enough to make at least some interaction available at the graveyards, and the implementation mechanics are already well known from COSMOS. As an added bonus it could be used as an improvement within the "new player experience".

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.18 12:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Wait for ambulation, or the "RP add-on" Very Happy


Given that FW was originally meant to be the RP'ers holy grail and that EA was billed as the first expansion where the story line was 'built in' and taking the front seat, I am not overly optimistic that ambulation is going to bring the love back.

Sure I can walk around a station, but it still isn't giving me a motivation to go shoot someone in the face for a cause. I like to shoot ppl and I used have good reasons for doing so that interacted with the larger universe. These days it doesn't seem to matter who we shoot or how often, the universe goes on regardless.


Originally by: Jowen Datloran

I was very disappointed when seeing the battlefield graveyards after EA started. Fluff that you in no possible way can interact with. What the content team should have done was to make the wrecks as salvage spawn containers that would spawn salvage components and scrap metal when people use Salvager modules on them. The potential income from this could easily be leveled out to an hourly income around a level 1 agent mission, and the graveyards could either be patrolled by hostile NPC salvagers or low threat rogue drones.

Nothing fancy, but enough to make at least some interaction available at the graveyards, and the implementation mechanics are already well known from COSMOS. As an added bonus it could be used as an improvement within the "new player experience".


Kind of like The Defiants' conflict in the bleak lands vs the Saracens. The plexes were put in just a sanity test for the FW system but even so it was interactive content for a short period and had a link to the story line. Problem with was that it ultimately went nowhere and the data shards we were asked to collect were never mentioned again but it was a start and gave players a reason to go somewhere and something to be doing that, on paper at least, had an end point.

If CCP had followed up collecting the data shards they encouraged the Minmatar players to capture then it could have been used to influence the storyline somewhat in at least a background story arc.

As it is we lack the ability to do anything one-off, FW boils down to ping pong, you might take all of Amarrian low sec today but its just a matter of time until fortunes reverse. That Defiants arc had potential to be there for a time but in the end result in a victory or defeat. It isn't an end game but it is something that can be achieved and become a moment where the players can look back and say - 'we did that'.

I don't see much of that any more.

SSgt Sniper
Gallente
SSgt Sniper Temporary corp
Posted - 2008.10.18 12:43:00 - [20]
 

I agree that they need to think of some way for UK and CVA to make pew with sovreignity. I still am a little dubious of letting any alliance directly into the FW though.

Perhaps anyone of sufficient standings in the right direction should be able to give an 'assist' on plex captures or something. Something that makes you relevant without endangering abuse of FW mechanics by alliances.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.10.18 12:53:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ugleb
Given that FW was originally meant to be the RP'ers holy grail and that EA was billed as the first expansion where the story line was 'built in' and taking the front seat, I am not overly optimistic that ambulation is going to bring the love back.

Sure I can walk around a station, but it still isn't giving me a motivation to go shoot someone in the face for a cause. I like to shoot ppl and I used have good reasons for doing so that interacted with the larger universe. These days it doesn't seem to matter who we shoot or how often, the universe goes on regardless.


Well ambulation will add the personal ROLE into roleplay. Simple pewpew is not RP. Immersion, personality, personalisation. That's some RP elements missing. Now EVE is merely a ship pilotig thingy. Ambulation might bring some personality.

What someone said about WoW and EVE, that in EVE you can effect the world...you really can't. Only ones who can are large alliances or such, but even they don't have any REAL effect on the world. Same is in WoW, large guilds can "take over" a city for fun, but it'll go back ot normal soon enough.

The day EVE introduces the possibility to actually destroy elements, highsec stations, jita 4-4 etc etc...then you can say one can change the world.

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.18 14:59:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Ugleb on 18/10/2008 15:02:22
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Ugleb
Given that FW was originally meant to be the RP'ers holy grail and that EA was billed as the first expansion where the story line was 'built in' and taking the front seat, I am not overly optimistic that ambulation is going to bring the love back.

Sure I can walk around a station, but it still isn't giving me a motivation to go shoot someone in the face for a cause. I like to shoot ppl and I used have good reasons for doing so that interacted with the larger universe. These days it doesn't seem to matter who we shoot or how often, the universe goes on regardless.


Well ambulation will add the personal ROLE into roleplay. Simple pewpew is not RP. Immersion, personality, personalisation. That's some RP elements missing. Now EVE is merely a ship pilotig thingy. Ambulation might bring some personality.

What someone said about WoW and EVE, that in EVE you can effect the world...you really can't. Only ones who can are large alliances or such, but even they don't have any REAL effect on the world. Same is in WoW, large guilds can "take over" a city for fun, but it'll go back ot normal soon enough.

The day EVE introduces the possibility to actually destroy elements, highsec stations, jita 4-4 etc etc...then you can say one can change the world.


We had RP long before ambulation. The point isn't that they turned ambulation off for awhile, but don't worry it will be back in the summer expansion. We used to have the sense of impacting on the world through live events and news articles that reflected the players actions in game and on the forums.

I just don't see it happening any more. The event program is long gone and I doubt that it is ever coming back but moire than that EVE's storyline just doesn't feel as responsive as it used to. The FW storyline has happened totally without the players. There was a time when we could have been a part of it and our actions reflected in its telling.

Originally by: Ssgt Sniper
I agree that they need to think of some way for UK and CVA to make pew with sovreignity. I still am a little dubious of letting any alliance directly into the FW though.


Or you talking 0.0 here or about occupying FW systems? Because if we can do the occupation stuff then why bother drawing a distinction at all?

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.10.18 15:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ugleb
We had RP long before ambulation. The point isn't that they turned ambulation off for awhile, but don't worry it will be back in the summer expansion. We used to have the sense of impacting on the world through live events and news articles that reflected the players actions in game and on the forums.

I just don't see it happening any more. The event program is long gone and I doubt that it is ever coming back but moire than that EVE's storyline just doesn't feel as responsive as it used to. The FW storyline has happened totally without the players. There was a time when we could have been a part of it and our actions reflected in its telling.


I know we did, and it's true, lack of RP is putting off some of the players. There hasn't been that "part of the universe" feel in a long time.

Just meant that RP wise ambulation will help from a different angle.

Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:58:00 - [24]
 

I have heard so many times that ambulation will help roleplay. I foresee Minmatar running around inside Amarr Emperor station screaming 'down with slavery' without any consequence. At least from my point of view this would be counterproductive.

I think ambulation will be nice eye candy and all that and I really would love to see it. For roleplay I fear it will make things worse instead of better, though.

As long as there is this kind of FW on-off button, as long as even members of the amarr militia can dock in tribal liberation front stations, all this is very simplified, dumb down to easiest way of implementation and does not feel real.

I believe eve would be better if FW has consequences to every pilot, no matter if he actively participates in FW or not. No more access to amarr space for pilots with bad amarr standings. Fighting everywhere, not only in dedicated combat zones. Traders who want to work on gallente-caldari trade routes should be carefully watching their standings.

From my point of view eve is too dumb. Every pilot can fly every race's ship, can join every race's militia, can fly in every race's territory, can dock and play the market everywhere. I really would love to see more consequences and I would love to see it everywhere, not only in FW dungeons.

And if everyone is more (those who reside in empire space) or less (those who stay in 0.0) involved and if FW is more then just dedicated dungeons then CVA trying to hold Providence and Ushra Khan trying to attack CVA becomes more relevant again. I really hope the next extensions of FW will go into this direction. I hope what we see now is only the first step.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2008.10.18 17:39:00 - [25]
 

Quiet a bit of focus on CVA & U'K here; a bit disappointing from my view since you both have been interacting with each other for 5 years and creating your own storyline without the aid of CCP.

A bit of this discussion is going on over at Chatsubo as well, here is the thing. Assume Factional Warfare mechanics didn't exist and the storyline was progressed as presented to date. What then?

Yo****o Sanders said on Chatsubo that all of the story part is background.

Does U'K OOC recognize that CVA is Empire loyalist attempting to add a new province to the Empire with the Empire's laws and religion?

Has the storyline/PF ever said that Providence is outside the realm of reclaiming? I thought there was a regional description that described it as a region the Empire was planning to colonize before the Minmatar revolution. Oddly enough Pure Blind has a similar description just for the Caldari, earmarked to be the Fourth District.

I think almost every RP organization has struggled with its place in the 'new world'. Some have given up, others continue on.

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.10.19 08:35:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Arderich
From my point of view eve is too dumb. Every pilot can fly every race's ship, can join every race's militia, can fly in every race's territory, can dock and play the market everywhere.


This i can agree with, every ship for every pilot and "equal rights in this deadly and uinkind world", is silly.

The moment i learned that i can train any ship, my race lost all unique features.

And now that war in upon us, we can still fly about and laugh at people in their own stations.

No RP left.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.10.19 09:40:00 - [27]
 

Sensible posts, Ugleb.

I always wondered why CCP decided to make FW a "pvp introduction"-area, since well.. as far as I can recall, it was always the dream and crown jewel for the RP-alliances. Seemed a bit like throwing your bone to the neighbours dog when yours is starving.

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.10.19 12:53:00 - [28]
 

Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to roleplay within the constrained world of an MMO?

Falaricae
Posted - 2008.10.19 13:16:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Falaricae on 19/10/2008 13:16:11
Originally by: Feilamya
Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to roleplay within the constrained world of an MMO?


Well, why not. It is fun, doable and you can propably easily find a lot of like minded people to share your hobby. When you roleplay you constrain yourself to the character and the setting, so not all constraints are a bad thing. Constraints provide a framework to work with and you get better immersion as a trade, since you don't have to create everything with your imagination. Granted you are limited to what you can do in an MMO, but roleplayers in my experience are far more creative than the average people, so they can propably fill the remaining gaps. Ambulation will propably be in every roleplayers wist list, since it removes some of those constrictions and greatly improves immersion and roleplaying options at the same time.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.10.19 13:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to roleplay within the constrained world of an MMO?


RP was an important and interesting part of the game that actually made sense until 2006 or so when CCP decided that ISK farmers were cheaper to keep happy...


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