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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:37:00 - [1]
 

I suck at math for the most part so I need some help on this.

I was just on a smoke break and I was watching a beetle haul ass across the cement. I measured one cement block at 10ft (3.048 meters) and I'm figuring he cleared about 15ft (4.572 meters) since I spotted him.

Now I can smoke a cigarette in about 4 minutes meaning that he cleared the 15ft in about 4 minutes.

Now say we mutated him to be about the size of a person. How fast would he be going in mph (or Kph)?

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:39:00 - [2]
 

Depends how big the beetle was.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:43:00 - [3]
 

Maybe about 2.54 centimeters

Kyrall
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Kyrall on 14/10/2008 22:51:33
Scaling from 2.54cm to 2m gives factor of 78.7.
Scaling his speed up by that gives 1.5m/s or 5.4 km/h.
Edit: Which is 3.375mph

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:51:00 - [5]
 

Okay that's about an 80th of the length of a human (albeit a basketball player sized human). If we're to assume the model scales linearly with body length, then it would clear 80*15ft in 4 minutes. That's 20*15ft per minute, that's 300 ft per minute. That's roughly 100 meters per minute or 1.7 meters per second. About 4 miles an hour, a brisk walking pace.

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:15:00 - [6]
 

huh, that's kind of a let down actually. I was imagining a beetle cruising down the freeway at breakneck speeds.

Thanks for the answers though.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:19:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
huh, that's kind of a let down actually. I was imagining a beetle cruising down the freeway at breakneck speeds.

Thanks for the answers though.


Make the bettle an ant and you may get the answer you were looking for. For those are the bugs I have always been in amzement by for their, self percieved, ability to cover massive distances in very short periods of time.


Slade

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:23:00 - [8]
 

But this wouldn't scale linearly would it?

Growing up I always heard that "If ants where the size of humans they could lift 5 tons!!!"

Well no, that is not true. Just because they can lift 50x their own weight at their current size, doesn't not mean they could at our size.

In fact, if a HUMAN was ANT sized, we'd be able to lift even more than they could.
Fact #2, if ants where human sized, they'd break their own legs trying to stand.

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:24:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
But this wouldn't scale linearly would it?

Growing up I always heard that "If ants where the size of humans they could lift 5 tons!!!"

Well no, that is not true. Just because they can lift 50x their own weight at their current size, doesn't not mean they could at our size.

In fact, if a HUMAN was ANT sized, we'd be able to lift even more than they could.
Fact #2, if ants where human sized, they'd break their own legs trying to stand.

this

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:26:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 14/10/2008 23:29:00
yeah, I kinda threw that whole being crushed by your own body weight out the window for the sake of argument.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:28:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
But this wouldn't scale linearly would it?

Growing up I always heard that "If ants where the size of humans they could lift 5 tons!!!"

Well no, that is not true. Just because they can lift 50x their own weight at their current size, doesn't not mean they could at our size.

In fact, if a HUMAN was ANT sized, we'd be able to lift even more than they could.
Fact #2, if ants where human sized, they'd break their own legs trying to stand.


Indeed, I believe that is called the fallacy of the model or something. Mass scales as a cube of the length whereas the strength of joints scales as a square of the length.

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:28:00 - [12]
 

those formulai assume that speed has the same linear progression as the speed though...

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:31:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 14/10/2008 23:31:53
Originally by: Last Wolf
But this wouldn't scale linearly would it?

Growing up I always heard that "If ants where the size of humans they could lift 5 tons!!!"

Well no, that is not true. Just because they can lift 50x their own weight at their current size, doesn't not mean they could at our size.

In fact, if a HUMAN was ANT sized, we'd be able to lift even more than they could.
Fact #2, if ants where human sized, they'd break their own legs trying to stand.


I will have to look into this since you have not provided anything to back up your statements. You say this can not scale lineraly but then you put to liner "facts" at the end of your post. But if all structural systems were alowed to be scaled lineraly I do not see why the ant could not function. But I am not a biologist, so like I said before I guess I have some reading to do.

EDIT: Thanks Reaper for the the clues on where to start to clarify this topic.


Slade

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:33:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tortun Nahme
those formulai assume that speed has the same linear progression as the speed though...


Well given that the identity is a linear map, it is actually true that speed scales linearly with speed. Razz

Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Umbra Synergy
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:33:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 14/10/2008 23:33:43
to scale it linerally you would have to consider that the energy expended ALSO scaled the same way, meaning they would need to eat like 4 elephants a day just to survive

and yeah, i see my mistype Razz


DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:36:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: DubanFP on 15/10/2008 00:23:21
Originally by: Slade Trillgon
I will have to look into this since you have not provided anything to back up your statements. You say this can not scale lineraly but then you put to liner "facts" at the end of your post. But if all structural systems were alowed to be scaled lineraly I do not see why the ant could not function. But I am not a biologist, so like I said before I guess I have some reading to do.


Slade



Volume = cubic meters m3
Area = Sq meters m2

Now take a cross-section of your legs. X^3 amount of wieght/volume is distributed on a 2D area on any single location of your body.

So your volume and mass rise by a power of 3 while the AREA your weight gets distributed on increases by a power of of 2. It isn't biology, it's pure and simple math.

See tortan about speed scaling and energy. The energy required scales with mass/volume. At the same time heat is being released. A flee could launch itself thousands of body lengths, but to launch yourself that way the energy would more then likely vaporize your 3 dimensional body.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 23:38:59
Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 23:38:35
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
those formulai assume that speed has the same linear progression as the speed though...


Well given that the identity is a linear map, it is actually true that speed scales linearly with speed. Razz


Hmm, I knew that strength didn't scale as fast as weight did, so I assumed speed was similar.


I guess it two different properties though.

So if say a 10Lb 1ft length rocket went 200mph.
a 100lb 10ft rocket would go 2000mph?

edit: Actually, that 10ft rocket would probably weigh a lot more than that.

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 23:38:35
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
those formulai assume that speed has the same linear progression as the speed though...


Well given that the identity is a linear map, it is actually true that speed scales linearly with speed. Razz


Hmm, I knew that strength didn't scale as fast as weight did, so I assumed speed was similar.


I guess it two different properties though.

So if say a 10Lb 1ft length rocket went 200mph.
a 100lb 10ft rocket would go 2000mph?

edit: Actually, that 10ft rocket would probably way a lot more than that.


I wouldn't know. if you actually read what you quoted there, I was actually making fun of a typo. Razz

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:45:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: DubanFP


Volume = cubic meters m3
Area = Sq meters m2

Now take a cross-section of you legs. X^3 amount of wieght/volume is distributed on a 2D distribution on any single location of your body

So your volume and mass rise by a power of 3 while the AREA your weigth get distributed on to rises by a power of of 2. It isn't biology, it's pure and simple math.

See tortan about speed scaling and energy. The energy required scales with mass/volume. At the same time heat is being released. A flee could launch itself thousands of body lengths, but to launch yourself that way the energy would more then likely vaporize your 3 dimensional body.



Much better and perfectly understandable when it was spelled out. Crtical thinking skills have failed me today Embarassed

Thank you Duban 0\


Slade

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 23:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Originally by: DubanFP


Volume = cubic meters m3
Area = Sq meters m2

Now take a cross-section of you legs. X^3 amount of wieght/volume is distributed on a 2D distribution on any single location of your body

So your volume and mass rise by a power of 3 while the AREA your weigth get distributed on to rises by a power of of 2. It isn't biology, it's pure and simple math.

See tortan about speed scaling and energy. The energy required scales with mass/volume. At the same time heat is being released. A flee could launch itself thousands of body lengths, but to launch yourself that way the energy would more then likely vaporize your 3 dimensional body.



Much better and perfectly understandable when it was spelled out. Crtical thinking skills have failed me today Embarassed

Thank you Duban 0\


Slade


Looks back on post. I need to train Spelling V X-/

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.10.15 00:15:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Last Wolf
Edited by: Last Wolf on 14/10/2008 23:38:35
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Originally by: Tortun Nahme
those formulai assume that speed has the same linear progression as the speed though...


Well given that the identity is a linear map, it is actually true that speed scales linearly with speed. Razz


Hmm, I knew that strength didn't scale as fast as weight did, so I assumed speed was similar.


/doh

I guess it two different properties though.

So if say a 10Lb 1ft length rocket went 200mph.
a 100lb 10ft rocket would go 2000mph?

edit: Actually, that 10ft rocket would probably way a lot more than that.


I wouldn't know. if you actually read what you quoted there, I was actually making fun of a typo. Razz

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.15 11:09:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 12:31:17
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 11:46:01
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 11:12:32

BLAH BLAH BLARGGG

GARBLE GARBLE GARBLE

ughugh


Slade

Keaton Kiwiman
Posted - 2008.10.15 11:21:00 - [23]
 

my brain hurtsEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassed

ReaperOfSly
Gallente
Underworld Protection Agency
South Pole Dancers
Posted - 2008.10.15 11:50:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Slade Trillgon
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 11:46:01
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 11:12:32
After a night of sleep I got to thinking this morning about this thread and some of the statments that where made without any hard fact or declaration of direct knowledge. I do not know why I keep thinking of these things sometimes, but it happens.

I understand the following.

Volume = cubic meters m3
Area = Sq meters m2

But lets look at humans. Humans are bipedal creatures which can not support the body weight that quad****dal creatures can. For example the average cow weight is around @ 1200 pounds. This is more then 3 times the weight that the "average human" can sustain for signifaicant times without biomechanical/physiological failure.

How about deer and other related quadripeds? They have their, very similar mass to the averge human, dispersed over a smaller surface area (feet versus hooves). Yet their (much smaller and very similar articular connection and functioning) knees are able to support much higher jumping. Where as, the life expectancy of a professional basketball player is only 5 years due to the exponential rise in forces on joints in relation to jump height and the inability of the human knee to sustain this type of abuse for long periods of time.

I will not say that if an ant somehow was increased in size, to that of say a cow (this is not a Rick Moranis movie), that it would be able to handle its weight with its biological makeup. I would also not say, as fact unless I had some hard numbers to show, that one would also be crushed under this weight due to the above mentioned realtionship between volume and area. Biology is a crazy thing Rolling Eyes

I will say that if a six legged creature existed, that was in scale with cows/elephants, it is very likely that it would be able to handle significantly higher amounts of body weight then a biped could and also be able to handle loads equivelant to or greater then elephants. I also doubt that this creature would be able to move at similar rates as its 10mm relatives.


Then again I could be viewing this illogically.


EDIT: Spelling

EITT 2: The only research I could find on ants that discussed scale was... Walking on inclines: energetics of locomotion in the ant Camponotus. This studied did energy expenditure studies on ants which involves the measurement of Co2 production in a closed area to determine O2 consumption. I know these tests all to well in the format of human testing, but what these guys did was a little crazy.


Slade



I have to confess, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you double the size of a given structure without changing the materials (be it an animal, scaffold, building, etc), then its mass increases eightfold whereas the strength of its materials only increases fourfold. Some animals have heavy bodies and thin legs because their bones are made differently and have different musculatures.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:34:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 12:36:40
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 15/10/2008 12:35:30

Originally by: ReaperOfSly


I have to confess, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If you double the size of a given structure without changing the materials (be it an animal, scaffold, building, etc), then its mass increases eightfold whereas the strength of its materials only increases fourfold. Some animals have heavy bodies and thin legs because their bones are made differently and have different musculatures.


Once again I guess I need to bang my thoughts off others to see through the fog. The concept of scaling has never been part of my studies and the morning fog did not let me cross far enough into depths of my mind to remeber basic animal phsyiology is not the same Embarassed

I know the point I was trying to make and I am not even going to say because I went back and re-read the thread and what I was trying to get to was not even in question and once again Embarassed

Thank you for being gentel with the reply because you could have easily flamed the hell out of me ugh

Previous post edited to show the true content.


Slade


 

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