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Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:42:00 - [1]
 

What kind of personal weapons would the different peoples have access to?

And would they carry them in public places?

Is technology split along the same lines as ship weapons? i.e. Amarr laser pistols, Caldari electromagnetic coil guns, Gallente particle blasters, Minmitar slug throwers?
Or is it all much the same?

Would common citizens in the various empires be unarmed, carry a weapon concealed, or carry openly?
What about capsuleers? or militia pilots?

Might people even carry swords, for honour duels and such?

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.14 18:42:00 - [2]
 

Permission to carry weapons would varry greatly depenind on local laws. I vaguely remember at one point that small arms trade was illegal in Amarr and Caldari space once but don't quote me on it.

I immagine firearms would be strictly verboten on space stations in empire because of the obvious risks of a shot somehow hitting a vital system mechanisim, with airport-security-style checks at the docking terminals/customs. Knives and melee weapons, would probably depend. Non-lethal weapons of the tazer and pepper spray variety might be allowed.

A few RPers have their characters trained in fencing, espeicaly the Caldari. Whether they'd carry swords around would be hard to say (though seems unlikely to me). Howater the Minmatar have the khumak, which is not so much a deuling weapon but is carried as a badge of honor.

Particle blasters seem rather impractical to me as personal weapons - sidearms are geared for precision, blaster on a person seems like it would be extremely messy like a hand grenade.

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2008.10.14 19:19:00 - [3]
 

Hmm, who are you planning to shoot, sweetheart?

Anyway, there seems to be at least 3 types of personal weapon directly ingame, plus whatever may be mentioned in chronicles.

"Elite Laser Pistols" - description "High-tech laser pistols." These are legal everywhere. (cosmos item)

"Small Arms" - description "Personal weapons and armaments, used both for warfare and personal security." These are illegal in the Amarr Empire, Ammatar Mandate, Khanid Kingdom, ORE, Mordu's Legion and Caldari State space.

"High Tech Small Arms" - description "These weapons are of superior quality to those normally found on the public market, although more expensive as well.
They are implemented with a safety net which prevents them from being used illegally in stations where most types of small arms are prohibited. Therefore many regions to not apply the small arms ban on these weapons." - legal everywhere.

So it would seem that many stations have prohibitions on the use of several types of small arms, though not all.
Planetside, who knows.

I'm not sure if weapons are banned because there's an actual risk to a station directly, or whether it's just so that station security will always have the upper hand over anyone that starts trouble.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2008.10.14 19:29:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Mithfindel on 14/10/2008 19:31:04
Looking at the released fiction, the most common weapons are some kind of projectiles, coming in various sizes. For physical restriction, non-chemical propelled weapons would be extremely limited (since getting a power source small enough can be hard, and if the power source is antimatter/nuclear having sufficient shielding would also be a problem).

As such, the most common sidearms seem to be futuristic sorts of firearms, with the futuristic part coming from different accessories (such as intelligent aiming systems) and ammunition (say, the Black Mountain series mentions bullets including small machinery to make the bullet dig into the target body and rip an artery if it hits flesh or penetrates body armour).

In fan fiction, we are mentioned laser weapons of various wavelengths, though without an exosceleton (which is mentioned to within the possibilities: Chamberlain Karsoth had exterior support to move his hulk about) carrying a shielded power source might be problematic.

In addition, I do remember an EON chronicle mentioning a portable railgun, so we can assume there do exist weapons grade capacitors powerful enough to give at least a few shots for a rifle-sized railgun. However, I'd expect that chemical-propelled weapons would be the optimal choise for most situations, with railguns and lasers reserved for special occasions, such as combat in vacuum or other dangerous environments. Notably firearms can be used in vacuum if the propellant does include an oxidizer, there is technically no reason not to use them. There may some other very good uses for non-firearms, as well.

For example, I'd expect that a railgun on a mount would be amongst the ultimate infantry anti-tank weapons due to high muzzle speeds. Recoil would be a problem, though, and as such, man-portable missiles might be preferable.

For lasers, a laser rifle with a portable capacitor good enough for a few shots would definately be every sniper's wet dream. The "shot" advances at the speed of light, eliminating need for taking any lead, and assuming that it doesn't cause luminescence or refract in the medium (say, sufficiently clean air should do nicely) it will be completely invisible, except for object directly on its path (which we may assume to die due to acute radiation poisoning and/or trauma caused by burned tissue). The only hint about the location of the sniper would be the severity of the burns on the victim, though if the laser fires a pulse powerful enough to evaporate parts of the target, even this will not be enough to locate the direction of the shot before the sniper can escape.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.10.14 19:49:00 - [5]
 


From what I've gathered in PF, stuff like mines, barbed wire, artilliery and the like are still in use, however there are subtle changes.

What I've seen of sidearms include standard projectiles, as seen today, as well as Rail and laser based rifles, blaster and pulse laser based semi/full auto pistols (Tibus Heth apparently carries a trusty blaster pistol with him most of the time), and all sorts of lightweight carbon/kevlar based body armor.

From reading the book all of the above are apparent, as well as heavily mechanised infantry and a lot of high tech air to surface gas and bombardment technologies.


Morgan Brykein
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.10.14 21:47:00 - [6]
 

If you look at the art for the Gallente Federation, that half-naked chick is holding a pistol that looks more "modern" in it's tech, basically by modern I mean with bullets and whatnot. Laser pistols are somewhat impossible within an atmosphere.

Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Morgan Brykein
If you look at the art for the Gallente Federation, that half-naked chick is holding a pistol that looks more "modern" in it's tech, basically by modern I mean with bullets and whatnot. Laser pistols are somewhat impossible within an atmosphere.


Got a linky for the pic? I can't seem to find it, though I think I know the one you mean. Appears on character selection screen, right?

hmm, laser pistols seem to exist ingame though. wonder how they work

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 22:59:00 - [8]
 

I've always taken the slight liberty of assuming that the State corp police forces (especially Ishukone Watch) have access to ultra-advanced weapons technology which is regulated to hell and back.

Imagine, though, a heavy coil rifle, operated by the squad's marksman. Rather than aiming and firing it manually, he'd deploy it on a gyro-stabilized gantry and uplink it with a corporate quantum supercomputer. From there, he'd aim at his target. The supercomputer would compensate for wind, distance and intervening material (like, say) concrete walls.

It would then program the ammunition, which would be a small explosive round the size of a grain of sand. the shell around the explosive would consist of an ultra-dense metal sabot designed to pierce pretty much anything with minimal deflection. The idea is that you fire from a location where the target can't shoot back, or even see you, and the round detonates at a specific point inside their body, resulting in such injuries as... severing the base of the brain stem, rupturing the aorta, traumatising the cervical spinal tissue, resulting in tetraplegia, or more subtle effects such as severing the tendons in their arm, rendering their hand useless, or blinding them, hamstringing them or similar non-fatal disruption.

That wouldn't be a frontline weapon. It'd need an FTL uplink array, stabilizer gantry, aiming servos, and a portable generator and capacitor to provide the firing energy, pretty much relegating it to the role of support weapon.

(if you think the idea's far-fetched, Challenger 2 tanks deployed in the middle east have scored confirmed kills by firing their Sabot rounds through sand dunes)

That's absolute cutting edge, though. Most weapons in New Eden would be projectile guns, although I believe the novel mentions Caldari combat MTACs being fitted with railguns (I'd guess those would probably be the equivalent of civilian railguns - far too small to threaten a starship, but really lethal to lighter targets, such as tanks, MTACs and people)

Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
Posted - 2008.10.15 00:24:00 - [9]
 

Really, though, why stick to the mundane? This is the future?!?! There is an in game item called a hovercar (or aircar, cant remember) so if you have flying cars, why not a recoiless tripod mounted railgun. Recoil wouldnt be all that bad. Remember that railguns operate along the idea of synchronized magnets to accelerate a projectile up the barrel. Recoil wouldnt be a problem. There wouldnt be any force exerted by a propellant to make the gun recoil.

Also, why not have a laser pistol that works in atmosphere? We have capacitors that can charge gigawatt lasers and Antimatter reactors that power them. You wouldnt need all that much power to make a laser focused enough to kill someone. Not the full output of a full up reactor at any rate. Perhaps the capacitor for the pistol or rifle only gives you a set number of shots... who knows.

Regardless, the one other thing to remember... why do you NEVER fire a gun on an aircraft at altitude? No, not cause you might hit someone, but because you might explosively decompress the cabin. Thats bad. I suspect that stations also would have that issue. Puncturing the exterior of a station accidentally in a firefight in a bar... would be bad. And the authorities would probably try to keep that situation from arising. Of course, on the stations run by pirates and the various "bootleg" establishments (I seem to see them quite a bit in various deadspace pockets) wouldnt be as strict.

Just a thought.

Anneka Tong
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
Posted - 2008.10.15 00:50:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Veron Daerth
Puncturing the exterior of a station accidentally in a firefight in a bar... would be bad. And the authorities would probably try to keep that situation from arising.


Stations look pretty solid structures to me, it would be a serious piece of hardware that could penetrate exterior plating, I'd think. I'd doubt it would be handgun sized.

Also,I wouldn't think there'd be much sort of habitation next to the exterior plating, for exactly this sort of reason. I'd think it would be mainly engineering and services stuff. Also, because of cosmic radiation.

Mae Hecklemeyer
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:35:00 - [11]
 

Mle weapons are much less efficient than small arms in close combat, although knives and daggers of various sorts should probably be common.

I would expect larger mle weapons to be common for ceremonial and meditative purposes among the Brutor, Achura, and specific groups among other bloodlines. Just because weapons are used for ceremonial or meditative purposes doesn't mean that they can't also be functional with training.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2008.10.15 04:36:00 - [12]
 

My character has an ancient family heirloom, a Civire warrior weapon dating back millennia. Is it for combat? Hell no, it is to remind him of his origins and what it means to be Civire.

But as mentioned by others there are plenty of options.

But hopefully basic Newtonian physics holds true, means recoiless weapons are difficult; p=m*v, f=m*a, etc.

Silver Night
Caldari
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.10.15 05:48:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Silver Night on 15/10/2008 05:51:02
As Dex says, basic physics is that if you push on something it pushes back. In this case the magnets push on a projectile, and it will be pushing back.

That doesn't preclude railguns. The nice thing about the future is we don't have to assume they don't have power supplies small enough to make this work. Look at MTACs, those imply miniaturization of large power supplies, as do ships for that matter. Something the size of a frigate is still able to give the universe an embolism and achieve warp. That's gotta take some juice.

So you main issue with something like a railgun is more likely to be recoil. Generally when depicted as an infantry weapon in science fiction they solve this by making them a very small caliber. Tiny little splinters accelerated to obscene speeds. Edit: k(energy) = m*v^2, velocity is more important than mass, by a lot). May have comparable or even slightly greater recoil next to something like an assault rifle - but has the advantages of not needing propellant for each round, and the small size of the rounds means you can carry more of them. High rate of fire since most of the mechanism is electrical rather than mechanical - the exception being the actual loading of each new round.

There might be a different class of Rail weapon in the sniper category, potentially slightly larger caliber and handy for the high muzzle velocity. This allows someone to pick off a target with less concern regarding gravity, or if you are in space the truly ugly things that can happen to a trajectory due to spin and the like. Less time for the bullet to veer off course (if you are using dumb bullets). Of course the anti-armor capabilities of hyper velocity weapons pretty much go without saying.

Lasers: Probably largely in space, but adaptive optics can probably do a lot to make the usable in atmospheres, at least for larger ones. Hand held at short range - as in pistols or being used as a short range/high damage 'shotgun' like weapon makes sense as well. And remember, chances are that they wouldn't technically be 'lasers' so much. In other wavelengths distortion from the atmosphere would be less of a problem. Hell, brick walls and things like that would be less of a problem with many wavelengths.

Blasters: Again, probably mostly short range. It is basically a plasma gun, just spews hot, excited-state death all over everything in front of you. Enjoy.

I think to some degree there would be splits along the same lines in weapons. The exception would be the Gallente since blasters just aren't a viable long range weapon, unless they had something like a plasma lance for armor/anti-armor. As well, I would think you would have more drones (of the UAV and on the ground utility/support type) for both the Caldari and Gallente. The Gallente because it is their 'thing' and the Caldari because historically they have an underpopulation problem combined with the most advanced tech base.

I say to a degree, because with the smaller size and price tag personal arms would have, I think you would see a lot more mixing. Particularly among non-military users - pirates, mercs, personal or organizational militas and armies. The thugs in a random low security system could be armed with any combination of things. There might be a lot of captured lasers floating around the Republic still as heirlooms. That kind of thing.

I've some ideas myself, but what about bladed weapons. Not swords, but just your basic combat knife. Think they have done anything to it?

Also, read the description for the advanced learning skill for perception. Baseline perception for a human (from the beginning stats) looks to be around 6 or 7 on average. Most podders are sitting at 20, with some as high as 30. Is there similar modification and training for elite soldiers, and what effect do you think it has? Being able to react 50%? 100%? 400%? faster than an average human being in a combat situation.

Huh, didn't know I had so much to say on the topic

Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.10.15 07:07:00 - [14]
 

What's the name again of that ceremonial Minmattar weapon, a kind of large spiked mace?

I think it depends on which environment you live and work in what arms you take with you.

Also good to note that certain public places (mostly bars) ask you to hand over any kind of weapon you carry with you went entering them. If it gets busy at the Skyhook the bouncers usually end up looking after a whole pile of arms Laughing

And then there was that time that Vieve visited and admitted to carrying a small explosive (I guess a grenade or similar) with her in her bag for personal protection Shocked

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.15 07:23:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
What's the name again of that ceremonial Minmattar weapon, a kind of large spiked mace?



Khumaak

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.10.15 14:28:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
What's the name again of that ceremonial Minmattar weapon, a kind of large spiked mace?



Khumaak


It's not actually a weapon, and it's not originally Minmatar.

The original item is Amarrian, and was a ceremonial mace used by the Heir of the Ardishapur family (Arkon Ardishapur). It was taken from him by a slave, who fatally wounded him with it before Arkon killed him.

As such, it's become a symbol of rebellion among the Matari people.


Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2008.10.15 14:34:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Louella Dougans on 15/10/2008 14:34:55
So, would it be reasonable then, for me, as someone living in Gallente space, where firearms are not prohibited, to be concealed carrying an heirloom Amarr laser pistol, self defence for the use of?

Esp. as i'm currently a Militia pilot?

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.15 15:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Louella Dougans
Edited by: Louella Dougans on 15/10/2008 14:34:55
So, would it be reasonable then, for me, as someone living in Gallente space, where firearms are not prohibited, to be concealed carrying an heirloom Amarr laser pistol, self defence for the use of?

Esp. as i'm currently a Militia pilot?


It's plausable. I dunno if being militia as a capsuleer gives you an automatic licence to carry and planetside rules may be as varried as the rules in the various US states are. There's no suggestion either way so far that the Gallente have anything like the Second Ammendment in their constitution.

Silver Night
Caldari
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.10.15 15:29:00 - [19]
 

Well, there might be some specific places where carrying a weapon isn't tenable, but as pod pilots we probably would have enough dough to get whatever sort of permits you need to carry a weapon in general. That is, you might not be able to take your gun into a bar or station or whatever, but you are allowed to carry it around in the Empires in general because you have CONCORD form 5-D all filled out and your fees all paid up. That kind of thing.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.15 16:59:00 - [20]
 

I always assumed that personal versions of the ship to ship weapons are possible, but not within broad use.

Blasters, Railguns and Lasers are most often used as heavy weapons for a kind of mechanised infantry. But I also think there are high tech versions of the same type, which are relativly rare due to high cost of a small and lightweight energy source and problems of miniaturisation, but are in use by Special Forces and sometimes Capsuleers and their personal Bodyguards.

Standard Infantry and Police use more often Projectile Weapons.

Also the small High Techs Arms are a bit more limited in Ammo Choice. Personal Laser weapons are often limited in their Ammo Type. For example a Graser-Rifle (Gamma Ray Laser) would be limited to a short range and Blaster Weapons, would not use Radioactive Ammunition and certainly not Antimatter inside a Station or a Planets atmosphere.

Vieve Tisserand
Gallente
Omerta Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.17 00:49:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Vieve Tisserand on 17/10/2008 00:49:23
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
And then there was that time that Vieve visited and admitted to carrying a small explosive (I guess a grenade or similar) with her in her bag for personal protection Shocked


Small thermal grenade. The late lamented purse was a dainty antique evening bag -- Trent and Darius convinced her that she needed to dress for male-chicken-tails when they hit the Skyhook that night -- so there wasn't room for a laser or a shield pistol.

She would have packed a sonic grenade (not one that would raise an alarm, but a sub/hypersonic temporary paralyzer like Stane uses in the Ironman movie), but she didn't want to run the risk of having her earplugs eaten by her dress.

Korthan
Caldari
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2008.10.17 02:50:00 - [22]
 

My character Korthan carries two pistols with tungsten based rounds that are good for general armor piercing and a sword that fits in a dimensional pocket (ultraviolet based idea) so that it's small and can be carried anywhere without being so obvious.

That and being even more gay, I wrote a script for a body guard that is a 2nd gen Inquisitor (thanks Istvaan for the idea) who is basically superman but without the invincibility part. He's fast, strong, and ugly which makes for a great killing machine when my character doesn't want the blame.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.17 03:08:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 17/10/2008 03:07:56
Shocked

Those are both pretty far-fetched...

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.17 05:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
What's the name again of that ceremonial Minmattar weapon, a kind of large spiked mace?



Khumaak


It's not actually a weapon, and it's not originally Minmatar.

The original item is Amarrian, and was a ceremonial mace used by the Heir of the Ardishapur family (Arkon Ardishapur). It was taken from him by a slave, who fatally wounded him with it before Arkon killed him.

As such, it's become a symbol of rebellion among the Matari people.




Ceremonial mace is still a weapon. I think that it is very likely that the dark ages of EVE saw reversions to melee weapons for at least a time.

Basically the logic would go: Futuristic weapons (even modern ones) break down. Most of the equipment to manufacture said weapons would not be present on the colonies. The knowledge of how to make rudimentary firearms is likely to have been limited, at best. The result would be a quickly dwindling supply of high tech weaponry, likely hoarded by whoever was in control (almost certainly true for Amarr, not quite so certain for the other races. In fact a theory to explain the speed of the Amarrian revival is that they controlled tech so centrally that a core of technology lasted longer and provided a base for a new development of weapons tech earlier than the competition.)

Even where it survived: It is far easier to produce a large number of hand weapons and bows and such than it is to create firearms.

The result is that it is likely that most of the cultures that are traditionalist have relics of a melee weapon past as ceremonial and sport weapons.

Maces, such as the Khumaak surviving as an Amarrian symbol of authority up until it was seized by a slave, swords and such seem very likely to be common among aristocratic elements of most of the cultures. Amarr and Matari definitely. Even Gallente might have some, though I would expect it to be far more limited to very specific ceremonial uses there if present at all. Caldari I am not so certain on, I must admit I do not understand them well enough to really make that statement.

Fencing and other weapons based martial arts also seem likely to exist, though I would say that most are more likely to be sports like modern fencing than to remain a true martial art.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.10.17 11:50:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
What's the name again of that ceremonial Minmattar weapon, a kind of large spiked mace?



Khumaak


It's not actually a weapon, and it's not originally Minmatar.

The original item is Amarrian, and was a ceremonial mace used by the Heir of the Ardishapur family (Arkon Ardishapur). It was taken from him by a slave, who fatally wounded him with it before Arkon killed him.

As such, it's become a symbol of rebellion among the Matari people.




Ceremonial mace is still a weapon.


Oh, while I agree it's still a "weapon", typically things created for such a purpose are overdecorated and cast or machined from non standard materials for the specific purpose of looking pretty, rather than being used as an everyday means of defense or offense. Smile


Elex Akat
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.17 22:53:00 - [26]
 

Since no one mentioned it, what about gyro jet pistols for the Caldari since they seem to have a love for missiles.

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.17 23:58:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Faraelle Brightman on 18/10/2008 00:00:04
Originally by: Elex Akat
Since no one mentioned it, what about gyro jet pistols for the Caldari since they seem to have a love for missiles.


I'd think the amount of propelant needed for a "jet" effect generaly gives you something the size of a Rocket-Propelled Grenade, not a pistol. The main difference between a bullet and a rocket is that a bullet expends all its propelant in a fraction of a second.

Though I wonder if you could make a guided bullet. Microcircuitry and tiny fins to controll it...would be darn expensive to make I bet.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2008.10.18 03:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Though I wonder if you could make a guided bullet. Microcircuitry and tiny fins to controll it...would be darn expensive to make I bet.


But sooooo cool... and a very useful sniper tool.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2008.10.19 17:23:00 - [29]
 

Nothing beats a plain old reliable kinetic weapon. No jamming field can stop it, no EM burst, I think any sensible person in the Eve universe would carry an extended-mag automatic pistol of some kind, with lots of compact magazines to stow around your person in case you don't have enough in the gun itself.

I bet the most advanced models rely on a solid block of dense matter as a magazine, from which to manufacture bullets. It's pretty much a 3d bullet printer, giving you eighty to one hundred rounds per load, and it sprays those really fast.

Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2008.10.20 01:46:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Nothing beats a plain old reliable kinetic weapon. No jamming field can stop it, no EM burst, I think any sensible person in the Eve universe would carry an extended-mag automatic pistol of some kind, with lots of compact magazines to stow around your person in case you don't have enough in the gun itself.



Sounds interesting.

So my heirloom laser pistol, and some sort of kinetic weapon, and I'd be all set?


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