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James Marshalll
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:13:00 - [2881]
 

Edited by: James Marshalll on 15/10/2008 01:13:32
Originally by: Kheldon Fel
Originally by: Battlecheese
buhu

So lots of loosers are threatening to quit.

Sounds like a good idea to me.


Loosers


you are such a looser Kheldon.

-If I told my wife she was looser I would get kicked out of the house.

Shard Merchant
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:14:00 - [2882]
 


Airakin Dhinos
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:15:00 - [2883]
 

Edited by: Airakin Dhinos on 15/10/2008 01:20:09
Edited by: Airakin Dhinos on 15/10/2008 01:15:56
Edited by: Airakin Dhinos on 15/10/2008 01:15:19
Originally by: Clansworth
Excellent, I've been asking for this fix for a LONG time.
People like this ruin our Future.

Feathertouch
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:15:00 - [2884]
 

Originally by: Senite Ascani
My 2 bits:

I have, over the nearly 3 years I've played, taken a number of breaks from EVE. I took those breaks for the usual reasons (rl, burnout, boredom, money, etc.). One of the reasons I would came back is that I knew if I'd left on a long skill train I'd come to the game being able to do something better, or new, or maybe be able to fly a new kind of ship. In fact the friend who pitched playing EVE to me presented ghost training as a feature (which unintended or not, it was).

I think CCP is well within their rights to change this "bug", but it was also a unique feature to the game. I can't think of any other game that allows anything similar. Which makes it's demise all the more sad. With it's passing I'm not sure I'll come back after my inevitable next break. We'll see how many really feel the same.

/shrugs







/signed

Kheldar Silk
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:18:00 - [2885]
 

Classic bait and switch.

I've never ghosted, but between this and GTC's I won't trust CCP to not screw me in the future. What's the point in playing a MMO if you don't know whether the devs will start deleting inactive chars, doubling the price, etc?

In a way training up a character is like investing in fun (while getting nice dividends) Very Happy When people can't trust the market to tell the truth they get out of the market. I now cannot trust CCP.

1 account down, 1 to go.

Binnii
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:27:00 - [2886]
 

Edited by: Binnii on 15/10/2008 01:27:43
I know this has already been said many times, but- If ghost training is such a game breaking bug, then why not nerf RP accumulation and market orders on expired accounts at the same time? You guys have already ticked off at least half of your revenue base with this and the forthcoming nano nerf. Why not finish the job?



Jayce Shale
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:30:00 - [2887]
 

Good Luck with this customer service decision CCP.

You're still the greatest (besides this)!

I look forward to the Vampire thing which this is paying for. :P

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:35:00 - [2888]
 

Originally by: Jayce Shale
I look forward to the Vampire thing which this is paying for. :P


I don't. Not looking forward to it one bit. The walking-around-killing-stuff angle has been done too many times in MMOG. Flying around in space is something different, and I like it.

However, the devs are trying my patience Evil or Very Mad

Rhivianna
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:36:00 - [2889]
 

Edited by: Rhivianna on 15/10/2008 01:37:54
I'm not going to read 98+ pages of posts to see if this was posted. So, here it is...

Has anyone ever thought of it from this perspective:
a) You run a company out of India using cheap ass labor and create XYZ number of accounts. You pay some drones to cycle through them and skill train. Once they get to those big time sync skills you set it to cycle and then let the account expire. A month later you re-enable and do smaller skills for a month.

b) you set some accounts to be ISK farmers / mining bots.

c) You give your ghost accounts ISK and a nice high-end ship or 2 and then you sell it.

If you do this correctly, you make money in RL. Now, I think the move here is actually a testament to EVE gaining popularity and the gold farmers, etc... to show up. Personally, I think this was discussed long and hard in a few meetings and isn't 100% a money grab or anything. It's a balancing act to try and keep the economy real and fluid and not be unduly influence by RL dollars / euros / yen / etc...

Yeah, it sucks if you're a real player with real accounts and want to take a break. I've done this myself a few times at the start of a 3-4 month break.
My $.02

Oftherocks
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:37:00 - [2890]
 

Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
The bug that became a feature

On Monday, we released news that we are disabling „Ghost Training“, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website.

How can we not know what‘s in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams – a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust you‘ve placed in us. There‘s no way to spin it and we won‘t add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize.

Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but we‘re cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Torfi



My problem with this is that not 1, not 2, but 3 different departments within CCP described this as a feature, not a bug. Marketing, Community Relations, and the GM's all at one time or another verified this was working as intended.

You apologize for the "miscommunication" and say you won't insult us by trying to "spin" it, but that is exactly what your post is.

I'm sorry that I have lost all trust in CCP, but I seem to have read too many of these dev apologies. I don't believe this was ever a bug. I don't believe this decision was made by the development team. I do believe this decision came down from your CFO who I believe made this decision without understanding the customer base and what the reaction would be. I know your profits are way way way down, but this will not fix that.

As I have said elsewhere, I pity the developers, the artists of this game, because your design decisions are now being made by finance people who are obviously clueless.

Greenbolt
Minmatar
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:37:00 - [2891]
 

Subscription successfully canceled

Click here to continue




Machine Delta
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:38:00 - [2892]
 

Edited by: Machine Delta on 15/10/2008 01:39:29
Stop lying to us you stupid ****s:

Linkage

Linkage

Erimisha
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:40:00 - [2893]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz
See, the thing about bugs, the defining measure of what a bug is, is that either the developers don't know about it, or haven't been able to fix it.

Given that developers knew about it, and put it in the guide AND it was 'fixed' for Serenity. This means that it doesn't satisfy either of those two. It is a change which was deliberately chosen to not be implemented years ago, and thus NOT a bug.

That you continue to insult our intelligence with this line is worse than the change itself.


QFT.

It was known.
It was promoted in official literature.
It was 'fixed' once alreadyon the Chinese server but left alone here--INTENTIONALLY.

And you still call it a 'bug'?

Let me guess. You've recently gotten a pretty decent downturn in subscriptions of 2nd, 3rd and even 4th+ alt accounts right? Perhaps 30-90 days after the GTC "fix" that drove prices to ridiculous levels? All at a time of global economic instability.

Gee, can't see any reasons for a sudden upsurge in people using a promoted game mechanic.. Rolling Eyes


Christine Cormorante
Gallente
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:42:00 - [2894]
 

Define loser(s):

those who "insist" this was an "unintended bug" after touting it as a "game feature" for years, dismissing it as "unnoticed", AND:

any [email protected] who spells "loser" with more than one "o" while attempting to derail the thrashing that CCP is getting from many of its loyal customer base. Razz

Betteroff Dead
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:47:00 - [2895]
 

All I can say is that I am truly sad. It was one of the main reasons I loved this game so much. I can't afford to keep my account going year-round; and now I can't train in between breaks. Keep this stuff up, I am going to think CCP has been purchased by Sony or something. Wow, this sucks.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:50:00 - [2896]
 

Not to put bad JOoJoO on your upcoming game, but gl with getting that off the ground after the rep you get and anything that will be branded with CCP flag.,. Gonna be an uphill climb for ya. Sure wish you would have dumped some of that money into upgrading your "CURRENT" game so when you switch hands with it, at least the new owner will have a good leg to stand on, not a crumbling failcascade....

Is CCP trying to jump ship?

Airakin Dhinos
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:50:00 - [2897]
 

Edited by: Airakin Dhinos on 15/10/2008 02:09:20
Edited by: Airakin Dhinos on 15/10/2008 02:08:08
Wow CCP I have to hand it to you, it seems that you guys HAVE gotten desperate. But in your desperation you have not heard the voices that scream the loudest, your FAN BASE. FAN BASE is an important word in your business. And from what I've seen 90% of your FAN BASE is saying they would rather end their subscriptions than live on with out Ghost Training, which has always been a selling feature for this game.

I personally know that it was, because in 2004 I had my first look at EVE Online and I was told by another player that EVE was a Superior MMO, because of the fact that there were no level grinds for EXP, and that it had something that no other MMO had, Skill Training. "Skill Training?" I thought. "What an Interesting concept." but the thing that really got me was Ghost Training. Which was touted as being a new approach to MMO's where you could essentially train your account when you didn't have the money to pay for your Character.

I didn't start playing Eve until Jan. 2008, in 2004 the game looked unrefined to me then. Now in 2008 I was startled to find how far along the game had come. Then I was suddenly disappointed to find that 6 months into the game you nerfed the GTC's, which made me wonder if you think everyone in world is rich and can afford the outrageous prices you are Charging for the 60day GTC. Especially when it's still cheaper to just pay for 2months on Pay by Cash. And there was no player input taken into consideration.

So then next I hear that you are nerfing speed because of Cry babies. Now you're nerfing Ghost Training. But the worst thing of all is to assume that anyone of us is as smart as a 5year old child and try to pull the wool over our eyes with your Scapegoat Torfi, by saying that Ghost training was A Bug (nice PR). It's laughable.It was a 5 year selling feature that was just a bug that needed a fix? So why wait 5 years to fix it? WoW doesn't, Lineage 2 doesn't,and I could go on to list 1000 others. Not only that but CCP pulls some dirty underhanded move like telling us 2 days prior that it's set in stone and we're all going to suffer.

So apparently nobody over at CCP HQ knows how to communicate, which to me is pretty obvious at this point. Which makes me wonder will you guys be around for 5 more years or even 5 more months?
It sounds like alot of people are willing to burn some bridges, and CCP thinks that they will just ride it out because everyone's just gonna come crawling back. But really thanks for the "heartfelt appology" because that makes everything right and proper.


P.S. Don't even get me started on your Programming team.
P.S.S. For all the people with their noses in the air, sitting on your high horses saying that this is a good idea and CCP has every right to [email protected]#k us in the [email protected]@ maybe you should look down and you'll realize you're only riding a donkey ([email protected]@ES).

Juzo
Caldari
Retribution Enterprises
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:51:00 - [2898]
 

wierd something people care more about then speed nerf. Honestly I never saw it getting this big. Very Happy

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:53:00 - [2899]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 15/10/2008 01:54:01
Originally by: Rhivianna
I'm not going to read 98+ pages of posts to see if this was posted. So, here it is...

Has anyone ever thought of it from this perspective: (..)
Yep.

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
So, the bottom line is that 'normal' players, who merely used that feature in a moderate manner and valued it as a unique game feature among MMOs will draw the shortest straw, because a bunch of greedy players and/or character farmers abused it?

Seems like reallife.
Some bad people totally overdo things and in the end screw over everybody else.

Wasn't there a way to fix this without hurting everybody?
Like disabling ghost training for trial chars.
Like limiting ghost training to max one week after unsubscribing.
Like at least introduce a skill queue to offer some compensation.
Like re-defining (fixing) 0.0 capital blob warfare?

I mean, how many of those ghost training alts that make up the 'avalanche' are capital pilots? I'd really like to know.

Pep Alo
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:53:00 - [2900]
 

CCP you fail hard this time, lying like that about a bug is even worse than the big amount of bu*lsh*its about T20 scandal and so on.

If you want more money you should develop better your game (infini-lag ftl) not lying about 60-days GTC (today going for a lot more than the old 90-days GTC) and ghost training.

A lot of spaceships MMORPG are incoming, pay attention.

Jayla m'Kayla
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:54:00 - [2901]
 

Account cancelled. Sorry CCP

Much love for you and the past.

Fenrill Nerkata
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:56:00 - [2902]
 

Edited by: Fenrill Nerkata on 15/10/2008 02:18:20
Edited by: Fenrill Nerkata on 15/10/2008 02:02:04

Dear CCP,
As you probably mention, your idea is quite rejected by many players (it is least we can say).

Beeing for or agains this "bug fix" as you call it is no longer important.
Your problem today is that some player dont trust you anymore because you lie to your clients.
Or at least they feel you lie to them.

The fact reasons you give to us are true or not is not the point neither.
Some player will trust you but other will not.

The main problem is the modification look inconherent and only taken in emmergency :
It realy look like you was only looking for a fast ammount of cash and did'nt think about consequences. We all know Iceland have deep financials problem and the date you chose to "fix" it is the worst you could ever chose in the last five years.
About incoherence, you'll fix gost training for SP but nothing about RP.
However this have a greater impact : on R&D, market and gameplay.
Probably more than SP ghost training because ghost traing SP dont give isk whereas RP ghost training give millions isk each month.

Today it look like you have 3 options :
1- Remove SP training and keep going for RP training : in this case you will reinforce injustice and poor preparation of this "bug fix", be prepaired with consequences,
2- Remove SP and RP training : in this case, you'll have a new blaze of protests and the trust players give you may drop again,
3- Withdraw this plan. However you sayed this had to be corrected and I think I can agree with you if you explain the reason well and dont backstab us 48 hours before,

As you can see 3 solutions are bad.
However I can see a 4th one :
Suspend the "bug fix", change it for a consistent change including RP and fix it only when you will be able to give something in return to your clients. For example skill queuting.

If you take the bone, give something else in return otherwise the dog will bite you.
As final word, explain why, give informations, talk about it, take the time, plan it several weeks before the release.

Hope someone in Dev team will read this.

Zinnn
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:56:00 - [2903]
 

To me this just shows how much CCP cares about its customers' opinions. I know it's been said before, I just haven't said it. I'm disappointed.

RVWinkle
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:59:00 - [2904]
 

Originally by: Julius Rigel
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 14/10/2008 19:28:52
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 14/10/2008 19:27:42
Originally by: James Marshalll
Originally by: Julius Rigel
Originally by: RVWinkle
Now that this is no longer a feature I cannot justify resubscribing.
Apparently you can, since you're still subscribed...


you do know that ending your sub doesn't end your ability to post or play the game until your paid time is gone right?
[Edit:] Sorry, my point is; what are you doing here if you intend to leave?


I am leaving my feedback in the feedback thread.

Delos Korelian
Amarr
Korelian's Salvage and Reclamation
Posted - 2008.10.15 01:59:00 - [2905]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
The bug that became a feature

On Monday, we released news that we are disabling „Ghost Training“, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website.

How can we not know what‘s in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams – a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust you‘ve placed in us. There‘s no way to spin it and we won‘t add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize.

Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but we‘re cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Torfi



I am sorry Torfi, but this is damage control, pure and simple, and do not think for a second that most of us do not see through it.
What your superiors have done is taken away a feature that was a major selling point for many people.

EVE is an addicting game, and a major hobby for the most of us. Because CCP has encouraged dual-boxing, and dual-accounting, for so many years it has become a major part of the game. After a while EVE will have an effect on a player where we simply have to take a break, and having the so-called "ghost training" was one bright spot - we could set that "special" skill that we did not quite get to, and walk away for a month, knowing full-well that when we come back we will have another avenue to explore within the game world.

It was exciting, and nice to know that you as company pretty much understood us, the adult players, with families, jobs, army service, business trips and mortgages, and car payments. It was very nice to know that despite being bogged down by real life there was a small pleasure to come back to when I hit that "reactivate account" button.

You have taken it away because you want money, pure and simple. And, in short term, it will bring you more money - in the long term, all those short attention span kids with daddy's and mommie's credit cards will go away, and you would have most likely have lost your core gamers, the ones who stuck with you through 5 years, and would have probably stayed for longer still.

I know, I am sounding like a broken violin, but I am so very much disappointed, ever since Oveur and others have left CCP you guys act and deal with us, loyal players like strangers. I have always felt more like family with the other guys, what happened guys? What are you doing? Is EVE not important anymore? I guess things change.

I never said "I would cancel my bazzilion accounts", I only have two, but I am seriously thinking of consolidating into one, and just seeing how it goes, and where you guys will take us next. I am an adult, and I will deal with it like an adult, no whines from me, just wanted to let you know how deeply I am disappointed in what you have done.


Nice summing up.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:01:00 - [2906]
 

*******UP NEXT IN THE NEWS*******

CCP in fury of chasing their loyal customer base, and in bad desicions made, have raised monthly gaming fees to 25$ per sub. Also they change another core game "feature"(or was it bug?) of training while offline. Now to gain SP, you must click a button every 10 minutes to show you are active. And to think, they only announced this 48 minutes ago.....

Another testiment of why PR should be numero uno!!

ATARI BABY
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:10:00 - [2907]
 


bugs are becoming feature?

roflmao.

well... now i expect anything from ccp... really.

The Slayer
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:12:00 - [2908]
 

Edited by: The Slayer on 15/10/2008 02:12:40
If I pay for a months wow subscription and really really work hard on grinding a character I can have a lvl 70 by the end of 2 or 3 weeks and have an endgame capable guy by the time my months subscription runs out.

If I pay for an months eve subscription I can... train the leaning skills and still be in a goddamn rifter at the end of the first month.

Yes eve allows you to train while offline, and yes this is awesome. Grind is a horrible thing, but then again so is waiting! People don't like to watch a timer go from 30days down to 0 while waiting for a cruiser 5 to train.

This "bug" does not actually give users anything for free, as is claimed by some posters. People still have to resubscribe the account if they want to play it. They still have to resubscribe the account if they want to switch to another skill. And with the introduction of 60 day time cards there won't be an awful lot of downtime on accounts anyway (set 30 day skill at end of 60 day timecard would be the max I imagine).

At the end of the day the people who used this "bug" (you cant call it a bug if its documented stop calling it a bug, bugs are unexpected features if its documented its not unexpected) were paying customers who came back to the account once the skill was trained. They may not have held a constant subscription but they WERE return custom. You have removed them from the game. I truly hope that the subscription numbers speak for themselves, as it appears anything we say is going to fall on deaf uncaring ears. But then again what do I know, im just a stupid goon.

TashEve
Gallente
Advanced Designs
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:12:00 - [2909]
 

CCP - you will definitely make more money. In the short run at least.

Making more money is no shame but the way you guys went about doing it it shocking to say the least.

Anyway, I needed that extra push to cut down my number of accounts.

ISIAM
Posted - 2008.10.15 02:13:00 - [2910]
 

Sorry, everybody but, it's true this is the begging of the end.Crying or Very sad


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