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C4w3
Minmatar
Corp 1 Allstars
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:15:00 - [2011]
 

I wonder if there is something that CCP hf aint telling us? did the chrash hit you harder then you admit and you had alot invested in IRL ISK / Icelandic banks, resulting in a epic economic cricis? Evil or Very Mad

And i will cancel all my extra accounts.

ill keep C4 for old times sake payed by isk.

Ssrly why dont you just tie the playerbase to a tree and Aess **** em?

Dire Radiant
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:18:00 - [2012]
 

This is only acceptable if you put into place before the change a skill queue.

Gedhay
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:18:00 - [2013]
 

CCP anounce that a feature like training while ur subscription it's canceled is a "bug" and now it will be "solved". ok, now, a lot of people are arguing if they are wright or wrong. First of all, they are the guys with the power, so we must opose them Laughing. Second, we must take a long breath and see if they are wright. So, let's see what they have to say.

"Ghost Training was an unintended feature where unpaid accounts of EVE Online were able to continue training skills. While this allowed players to run multiple characters on a shoestring budget, in all effect, this was a bug."

But till 10th of october, there was the "power of 2" offer!!! So they are not happy with some characters training with "shoestring budget"??? CCP it's aware of people using more than one account so, why don't give them something back like "second account - half of price"? FOREVER...
No, that's impossible, cause it will result in an increased number of new char... or in an decrease of CCP gainings.
But this not what they said. They said: "But recently we have seen a surge in this behavior in a way that we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions. That's not fair towards CCP as a service provider and it's not fair towards other players that pay a subscription but don't make use of this bug."
So, it's not fair to the CCP as a service provider. But when CCP make a "roll back" in the middle of a fight it's fair to the "paying customers"? Or when the deploiment of an patch takes longer then announced? or when u want to enter "Jita" and wait half for hour?
But it isn't fair not only to CCP, but "towards other players that pay a subscription but don't make use of this bug". But they are aware of this "bug" and they chose NOT TO make use of this momentarely. That doesn't meant that in the feature they will not make use of it.

Anyway....
We can look at this from a variety of angles, but it all comes down to:

1.There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription
2.CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak
3.Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress

I'm curious, when CCP noticed "a surge in the trend" and how quicly they act in order to "fix the bug"?
And if they are so eager to be fair to us, paying customers, how long it will take to "fix the bug" of 3 characters/account and only one training? Or the "bug" of "Skill in queque", to prevent active subscriptions from losing SP because the player is not able to get to a therminal (with EVE on it)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many said, no pay, no play, but that was true, till now! because if u had ur subscription canceled, u were not able to play. Now u have "no pay, no train"!
Many said that this will prevent "character farming", but if u had the possibility to train on 3 accounts(one subscription), u will not be tempted to do that.
And there are many things to say but there are no characters leftRazz.

And many said to look from the CCP's point of view but....I'M NOT CCP! NOR ARE YOU!!!
THEY ARE SEEING THEYR INTEREST SO, WE SHOULD DO THE SAME!!!
Somewere in the middle it's a way to understand each other and the CCP, "as a service provider" should notice the needs of their costumers and not enforce some "rules" on them.

VLAD DRACU
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:20:00 - [2014]
 

Originally by: Ra Vhim
Most importantly regarding this change, CCP looks like lying, greedy bastards by giving us players two blogs that as far as I can see is some odd twisted attempt to fast-talk their way out of some kind of truth we are not supposed to know about. Perhaps it only is an unusual clumsy attempt to give us the news in a smooth way. Either way, I (and I suspect most others) dont like being lied to nor be treated like a moron. A poster a dozen pages back or so summed it up nicely: Shame on you, CCP.

To sum it up, the thing that ****es me off is the 2 blogs that shows what kind of relationship CCP have (or want to have) with the players. It sure isnt based on respect or honesty.



the man spoke!

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:21:00 - [2015]
 

Originally by: Seth Ruin
So here you're going to tell me neither you nor your main will ever complain about any game change ever, correct? Because after all, nothing is really an "intended feature."
Completely incorrect. First: Some things are clearly intended, some are not, for many there's just no way to know.

Second: That doesn't matter to me at all. I complain about (or applaud) the way things are. I don't give a rat's posterior whether they meant to do it or whether it just happened.

The only people I see claiming intent are the ones who want to take their selfish whinge about this decision and try to pretend it's some great moral crusade for honesty instead of just whining about their metagaming free lunch being closed down.

TomHanx
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:21:00 - [2016]
 

To be honest I find it quite ridiculous that people have the audacity to complain about having to actually pay for a game (OHMAHAGAWD I NO RITE!?!). I didn't even know what this "ghost training" was until I was pointed here by people on the GTC forum. So, you can't exploit a game anymore. Oh no, boo hoo! It's very entertaining to see people cry about not being able to ghost train, and then say things like "-3 accounts for CCP!". You barely paid for the game to begin with, exploiting it so you could train a character and not pay. You act like it's a bad thing if cheapskate morons like that don't play.

Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.

Kelly Cleiniv
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:21:00 - [2017]
 

Edited by: Kelly Cleiniv on 14/10/2008 16:21:43
Wooohoo !! im nr 2017 in the biggest whine thread ever Very Happy

nooo 2020!!

IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:23:00 - [2018]
 

Originally by: Catherine Frasier
I wouldn't expect such a list, period, why would you? Why would CCP (or anyone) run through each and every aspect of the game and specify; "Meant to do that", "Just got lucky", and "Ooops"?



i dont know about you but id expect the creater of the game to know about their game Smile
if somethings an oopsie it needs to be fixed
if something has gone into your explenation of the game declaring it as oopsie 5 years later is a bit of a stretch dont you think Question

and certainly after 5 years id expect the creaters of a game to know about their game and not go ummm yeah i know we sort of sayd it was a feature but actualy it never ment to be like that Laughing

besides if i was interested in a game and would like to know a bit more about the workings you know id try it
and perhaps even read bit of the manual
in this case called player guide
in this case id take that and say hmm yes this is how this game is i see
in this particular case that aspec hasnt changed in 5 years
now declaring this as an unwanted BUG is a bit far fetched if you already declared once that this is a game feature

now if this "bug" or "Unintended feature" was left out of the game guide alltogether you could indeed call it that
but the fact remains that after 5 years coming and saying "ooops bug" is a bit well.... you know ...

Borg Zorg
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:24:00 - [2019]
 

Originally by: TomHanx
To be honest I find it quite ridiculous that people have the audacity to complain about having to actually pay for a game (OHMAHAGAWD I NO RITE!?!). I didn't even know what this "ghost training" was until I was pointed here by people on the GTC forum. So, you can't exploit a game anymore. Oh no, boo hoo! It's very entertaining to see people cry about not being able to ghost train, and then say things like "-3 accounts for CCP!". You barely paid for the game to begin with, exploiting it so you could train a character and not pay. You act like it's a bad thing if cheapskate morons like that don't play.

Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.

If u r f...ing ignorant and dont know nothing abouth game you are plaing that is your problem.Read forums more mo..on and read player guid so u will be more informed player ,that actuali knows what is hapening in game and not just land from nowhere cose someone told u this was hapening and than expres your sheat statments based on nothing...
Nooob

St Claus
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:25:00 - [2020]
 

Edited by: St Claus on 14/10/2008 16:28:12
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Marius Duvall
If something is listed in the user manual saying "Hey, you can do this," it's an intended effect.
That's complete nonsense. The way training is handled (simulating constant training by updating when you log in) didn't take into account the possibility that for some of the time between log-ins your account might have been "inactive". Training and billing were on different pages, as it were.

Oops!

It was unintended and no amount of documentation can ever change that fact. Nothing short of time travel can even make it an intentional decision. If you want to argue that they accepted the way it was then sure, I agree, they did. And now they don't.


http://go-dl3.eve-files.com/media/0810/isabug4.jpg

That "bug" was removed from Serenity years/moths ago, why not from Tranquility if it is a bug and not a feature?null

Tobias Lee
Star Mercs
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:25:00 - [2021]
 

I don't think its about a free lunch its more about having a 2nd account and being able to train skills up cheaply mainly capital skills.

The macro miners wont be affected they can mine happily with 4 or 5 accounts on one pc.

In essence there's going to be a large amount of 2nd 3rd 4th accounts dedicated specialist toons that wont be renewed simply because of the cost.

How does this affect the game?

1. In the long time CCP loses money from accounts not being reactivated not sure how this will affect game development.

2. It might benefit corps since it reduces the number of alts hopefully a good thing.

3. Cash rich alliances with rich players in real life think of your BOB alliance here for example will gain a huge advantage because they can afford to pay for dozens of alt accounts so mimicking real life, EVE becomes a game for the rich.

Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 - [2022]
 

Hmmm, several sides to this, in my opinion:

1) You really can't in any degree of good faith expect to receive a service you aren't paying for. Score one for CCP.

2) CCP have in the past replied to "so long, EVE, real life is forcing a break on me" post with words to the effect of "don't forget to set a long skill, see you when you can come back", thus encouraging ghost training. It has also been in the player guide, an official CCP documentation of game features, not bugs. It has also been in the game since the beginning, and they have certainly had the technology to fix it, as the Chinese server does not ghost train.

3) Using "fairness" and "energy" to describe skill changing in this way: "This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not."
Are you kidding me? Time and effort to click "train skill". And those actively playing gain standings and isk, those ghost training do not. There just isn't an ingame advantage, only a RL wallet one, to ghost training. Score three against CCP.

4) By removing incentives to reactivate accounts that had been ghost training, it's likely CCP will see total subscription income drop as people do not renew accounts, possibly after paying a one time transfer fee to move a character off the account before canceling it. I really think someone dropped the ball on the cost/benefit analysis here. This particularly applies to people who have taken a break from the game but are now less tempted to return to play with that shiny new toy that boring long skill enabled.

5) This is the big one for me: CCP outright lied to their customers with the claim that it is based on fairness, and not the simple truth that they are a business and want people to pay for their product. And this is why I'm going to cancel one of my accounts so far. And no, it's not ghost training. The only time it ever did was before I even activated it. I trained Gallente Cruiser V right out of trial that way. That, in fact, is the only time any of my 3 accounts have ever ghost trained.

So, executive summary version: Demanding payment for your product or service is fair. Don't lie about it, though.

Marius Duvall
Amarr
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 - [2023]
 

Originally by: Dire Radiant
This is only acceptable if you put into place before the change a skill queue.


Or allow more than one character on an account to train skills.

IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 - [2024]
 

Originally by: Kelly Cleiniv
Edited by: Kelly Cleiniv on 14/10/2008 16:21:43
Wooohoo !! im nr 2017 in the biggest whine thread ever Very Happy

nooo 2020!!



lies! its not the biggest yet Razz (even if you count the 49 pages of the locked one)
but it will be
ooh it will be Laughing

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:26:00 - [2025]
 

Originally by: Innaara
Don't you guys get it by now?

CCP KNOWS you will renew your alts anyway. How else is this game playable?




4.5 years, 1 account, 1 main, 1 alt on that account used when the main gets boring.
you do not "need" alt accounts, at all.

I've ghost trained twice: commandships 4-5 when I was struggling with cashflow, and decided to take a break. Frigate 5, when the 3-day trial ended (yes, 3 days), and I did'nt even realise what ghost-training was.

Still object to this as it's been dropped on players with such short notice, and no discussions.

IMO part of the best incentive of eve is, if you quit, you know your character will be better when you get drawn back in - an incentive removed with this.

Tara Yang
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:28:00 - [2026]
 

Originally by: St Claus



http://go-dl3.eve-files.com/media/0810/isabug4.jpg

That "bug" was removed from Serenity years/moths ago, why not from Tranquility if it is a bug and not a feature?


OMG that is just priceless. Even more epic fail

Psyfr
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 - [2027]
 

ghost training is not free. generally speaking a person will train a rank V (averaging around 30 days) and then resub for 30 (oh**** $$$ for ccp!), then go inactive again with a new V training away. wtf is the point of ghost training if youre not going to resub (oh**** moar $$$!) to use the ****ing character?

jumping on the ccpfailboat wagon here:
ccp, you make alot of stupid choices and are shooting yourself in the foot consistently.
at a time where you really need good relations with the player base (lolnanonerf), you go ahead and effectively nerf any way that a player can have a nice break from the game, cycledown and relax; then come back to something shiny and new.

lately your dev blogs have been looking up with regards to the lag fixes, which has been great. you earned points with the entire community for that one.
but now its just like youve taken those lag spikes away, then used it to stab us in our ghost-training backbone.

you have to understand, eve can become like a job or chore. its evident from some of the speed changes you dont actually play the game, but ill try to help you out here. we need to be able to take a break, in order to be able to come back. if we burn out, so does our wallet.

have fun with that btw.

Kamikaze Calloway
Acme Import Export
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 - [2028]
 

Originally by: Borg Zorg
Originally by: TomHanx


Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.


If u r f...ing ignorant and dont know nothing abouth game you are plaing that is your problem.Read forums more mo..on and read player guid so u will be more informed player ,that actuali knows what is hapening in game and not just land from nowhere cose someone told u this was hapening and than expres your sheat statments based on nothing...
Nooob


TomHanx was right! This is funny! Pass the popcorn. And it looks like someone should spend less time reading the "guid" and more time reading the dictionary (check out irony, first)! Rolling Eyes

TomHanx
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 - [2029]
 

Originally by: Borg Zorg
Originally by: TomHanx
To be honest I find it quite ridiculous that people have the audacity to complain about having to actually pay for a game (OHMAHAGAWD I NO RITE!?!). I didn't even know what this "ghost training" was until I was pointed here by people on the GTC forum. So, you can't exploit a game anymore. Oh no, boo hoo! It's very entertaining to see people cry about not being able to ghost train, and then say things like "-3 accounts for CCP!". You barely paid for the game to begin with, exploiting it so you could train a character and not pay. You act like it's a bad thing if cheapskate morons like that don't play.

Seriously, this is funny. I'm just going to keep reading the crying and eat some popcorn.

If u r f...ing ignorant and dont know nothing abouth game you are plaing that is your problem.Read forums more mo..on and read player guid so u will be more informed player ,that actuali knows what is hapening in game and not just land from nowhere cose someone told u this was hapening and than expres your sheat statments based on nothing...
Nooob


Lol please learn to type better and come back to me with a coherent response.

Borg Zorg
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:30:00 - [2030]
 

The Secure section of the EVE website is undergoing essential maintenance presently and it is currently unreachable. The issue concerns a problem with the server at our billing service provider and we are in contact with them to solve the issue and get an estimation on when we will be back up. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and we hope to have the secure section back up as soon as possible.

Update: We are working with our billing services partners to address this issue which is being caused by server issues on their end of the pipe and thereby beyond our control. They have assured us that they are doing all they can to get things working properly. We'll keep checking back with them and update you as information becomes available.


Whata an coincidenc.We canot aces to our acount,right on.
ppl did take seriusly you decision ccp and r canceling acounts.......

Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:30:00 - [2031]
 

Oooh, nice touch... Just went to cancel an account and got this: "The EVE-online website is undergoing maintenance.
We are sorry for any inconvenience caused."

Junkie Beverage
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:31:00 - [2032]
 

unacceptable

Avita Ae
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 - [2033]
 

I think fixing this so called "Bug" may actually make me quit playing this game. I feel allready as if I am just paying for the game to give me skillpoints. So that someday I will have a character worth playing. Some skills take ridiculously long times to train, and being able to train while inactive was one relief from it. This is obviously a way to just try to squeeze more money out of the player base.ugh

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 - [2034]
 

Truth is, the bug was overlooked and allowed until too many people started abusing it - and it's clear from the length of this thread that a lot of people were abusing it.

So if all of you hadn't been so dedicated to gaming the system then it would've still been around, each and everyone who is complaining in this thread contributed to the nerf.

Myself, I never did it, and I won't miss it.

In fact I find it quite amusing to read all these sob stories here from people who've apparently blaming their lapses in subscription on stock crashes and bank closures. If this really were the case then the last thing you'd be worried about would be getting level 5 in Caldari Battleship.

Now, please get back to coming up with creative ways to kill the macro miners.

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 - [2035]
 

Originally by: IR Scoutar
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
I wouldn't expect such a list, period, why would you? Why would CCP (or anyone) run through each and every aspect of the game and specify; "Meant to do that", "Just got lucky", and "Ooops"?

i dont know about you but id expect the creater of the game to know about their game Smile
if somethings an oopsie it needs to be fixed
if something has gone into your explenation of the game declaring it as oopsie 5 years later is a bit of a stretch dont you think Question
Not at all. In fact, some "oopsies" might be with us forever. Unintended doesn't mean bad, or good. It just means unintended. Like jet-can mining, or carrier-freighting. CCP knows (or finds out about) such things. Sometimes they ignore them, sometimes they embrace them, sometimes they let it ride for a while and see how it goes. In this case (and others) they let it ride until it becomes problematic and then fix it.

This is nothing new. Try storing a fully loaded indy in your carrier. You could, now you can't. It was unintended, discovered, allowed and then fixed. Just like this.

Meat Missle
Amarr
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:33:00 - [2036]
 

If there is an avalanch happening in your database, the solution is not to cut off features of the game, the solution is to create a more robust system to handle the new load.

What If you struck a middleground. You are obviously kicking a bees nest by doing this ( im already screwed ). What if you offered some sort of deal to people like us who afk train 1 accounts skills to 5? Something like an added service you can purchase under account settings that allows for chars to afk train skills. Im sure the skills are all level 5 rank 6 or more anyways. People will gradly pay for an extra service.

THat way, you get your dues, we get our level 5's and not everyone will pay it so the database load is much less. Everyones a winner.

Crewman Jenkins
Caldari
Malicious Demi-Lancers
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:34:00 - [2037]
 

Its their company, they can do whatever they want. If you feel the product is no longer worth your money, don't subscribe to it.

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:35:00 - [2038]
 

Still no response to people asking why CCP felt it necessary to sugarcoat the truth, that this is a financial decision, with the falsehood, this is a bug.

Even from an immoral point of view I can't see the sense in it. I can see no reason to lie as an aside when your telling the truth about the heart of the matter to a discerning audience who are quite capable of seeing straight through this kind of thing.

This is terrible PR, and I worry that CCP may just decide to cancel this change to placate the masses while never providing an explanation as to why they felt the need to so blatantly misrepresent the facts.

Also: What made Torfi Frans Olafsson think for a second that we wouldn't notice this immediately? Does he really think, having been with the company since before launch, that the community is that stupid.

The whole thing is really quite depressing because I've always been a huge fan of CCP itself and things like this are eroding my trust in what I still consider to be the best MMO company out there.

BIind
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:36:00 - [2039]
 

Edited by: BIind on 14/10/2008 16:37:52
Originally by: Suze'Rain
4.5 years, 1 account, 1 main, 1 alt on that account used when the main gets boring.
you do not "need" alt accounts, at all.


I can't even begin to imagine how people would go about building a cyno network with just mains. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Melissa Dawn
Caldari
Seppuku Warriors
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:37:00 - [2040]
 

Edited by: Melissa Dawn on 11/03/2009 12:14:37
<snip>



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